Leading Communication Expert: This speaking mistake makes people not pay attention! - Vinny Raval

0:00Communication affects every single aspect of your life. Speaking in order to engage, influence, inspire the way they look at their audience when they're speaking, it feels as though they're talking to you. Why do a lot of people become nervous right before going on stage? If you look at someone like Barack Obama, Tony Blair, two people who when they spoke, people listened. Why? Because... Vinny Raval is a speaking coach renowned for helping leaders, creatives, and professionals communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. As a certified speech and language therapist and the director of The Speech Coach, his work combines clinical speech therapy, performing arts techniques, and science-backed techniques to coach clients to tell their story with presence and gravitas.

0:50The auditory center in your brain needs to be stimulated in order to pay attention to an incoming signal. It's pure science. So that's a good exercise to read out loud. Amazing exercise. Pausing is extremely powerful. It creates tension. It allows the other person to process what it is that you're saying. It brings people to a cliffhanger. Sometimes the other person may use that pause as an intro for them to speak. What should we do in those moments? I got published in The Guardian. It was over the moon. It was momentary. And I got my degree over the moon. It was momentary. Got a job over the moon.

1:26momentary before it all went back to you're useless if a person that had such a tough upbringing like yourself was able to be one of the greatest public speakers that i've ever met then anyone can

1:52Vinny, when someone asks you what is it that you do, how do you explain this in a very simple way? Simply put, I help people know what to say and how to say it and be confident when they're saying it. I know you as one of the UK's best speech coaches. You're very kind. And I will disclose this from the very beginning. You have trained me for a number of months to help me become a better leader, a better podcaster. And I have clearly seen the benefits of working with you. You've taught me so many real techniques that are applicable. Now, what makes you an expert? Because I know that, but our audience doesn't.

2:39So what have you studied? What have you worked on in your career that right now enables you to be one of the country's leading experts in this field? I blended my experience in the performing arts with clinical knowledge in speech and language therapy. I've put that all together and also worked through a number of different industries. I locumed for the NHS for about 15 years. Whilst I was doing that, I was talking to CEOs from numerous different industries and companies, from real estate to the crypto world, to blockchain, to law. And knowing how it is that people communicate and what it is they want, what their target is, and how to take them there by understanding who they are, is what I believe is my USP.

3:35And what have you studied? So I did a degree in speech and language therapy, which is a four-year degree. Previous to that, I was studying acting. I was reading books on Stanislavski. I was reading Shakespeare. I was learning how to put meaning into communication. So it seems to me that your first love was acting, and then you discovered the power of communication and you've studied speech coaching. Speech language therapy. Speech language therapy. You worked for the NHS. Then you've been working with probably some of the best or leading CEOs in the country, actors, politicians. If you take me to the moment in which you realized, the catalyst moment in which you realized that you wanted to become an expert in this field, that you wanted to give your life to it, When was that?

4:31That's a good question.

4:35It was the only way that I would be able to do something I loved and help people at the same time. And everything that brought me up to my clinical degree showed that I was really good at this. And the clinical degree behind it would give me the knowledge that other people in the same field would not have. But the catalyst was the amount of enjoyment that I got in helping people, being able to speak, being able to communicate, being able to present. Non-clinically, being able to be clear in the message that they wanted to get through to other people. Now, maybe someone listening to this may be thinking, well, I don't have a public-facing job.

5:23I don't need to speak to large audiences. why should I listen to the next hour or so of this episode? Why is this important?

5:37Because appropriate, accurate communication affects every single aspect of your life. It affects your private life, your personal life, your work life, your social life, every single aspect. You'll be surprised the number of people who I actually coach who don't give large presentations, but they wish to have excellent meetings. They wish to have good conversations and discussions when sitting at a table. It's not just about presentations and pitching. Before I scheduled this episode, I discussed this with some of my friends. And it was interesting to see what are their thoughts of what a speech coach does.

6:22and they all had a very interesting common answer, which is that a speech coach helps you speak clearer. What do you think is missing in that picture? Quite a lot. Quite a lot. Mr. Zandi, if I asked you to speak clearer, that would negate emotion, it would negate the performance, it would negate articulation. There is so much more involved. How are you going to structure what you're going to say? Are you using the right words? Is your intonation pattern doing what it's supposed to in order to make sure that you're engaged? Are you pausing to allow a person to process what it is that you're saying?

7:00Are you building the atmosphere? Clarity or speaking clearly is just one string or one strand or one thread of numerous different threads that are involved in communication. Interesting. Again, if I'm maybe someone listening to this, I might think, oh my God, there are so many things that I need to think about when it comes to speaking. And this is something that I do on autopilot that maybe I just shouldn't bother doing them. How easy it is for someone to actually become a good speaker, regardless of where you're starting. Very easy. Very, very easy. Can you follow instructions? Yes or no? Well, follow these instructions.

7:39If they're too difficult, break them down into micro progressions. Anyone, everyone. You've got to understand, I've worked with people who have had parts of their brain removed due to a disability, and they've made progress. So working with someone who doesn't have a disability and all those other underlying complexities just to improve, it's like any other skill. The more you practice with guidance, the better you become. I can't wait to get to those instructions. But before we do so, you once told me that the most important part when it comes to speaking is not how you speak, but how you feel when you speak.

8:23Can you explain what you mean by that? So it's not just how you speak. How you feel when you speak is extremely important. How you feel, the emotions that you have will be transcended across to whatever communication you're giving. so if I was nervous you'd hear it in my voice if I'm fearful you'd hear it in my voice if I'm desperate you would hear it in my voice and it's really important that you understand or that people understand that whatever emotion they're feeling is going to come across or going to be translated across or transcend across to whoever it is that you're speaking to people pick up on this.

9:02So understand what emotion it is that you're feeling. Understand how you wish to feel when you're communicating. How do you want your audience to feel? And that's a great place to start. I'll see people that come over and say, I'm not very good at this, or I become quiet when it comes to crowds. And they'll tell me all the physical attributes of what it is they're experiencing and then i'll ask them a question that's all great how do you feel when you're in these situations and nine out of ten times i don't feel confident well that's where we start interesting when you mentioned the instructions i think of them as a logical set of technical tools but now you're touching into emotions and And perhaps emotions are a non-tangible thing or sets of things that are very much developed through our youth and our education.

10:05And that really changes who we are as a person and how we portray our emotions in different situations. So for someone that maybe is in his mid-30s, mid-40s, that his personality is very much set. So meaning that I am going to portray this emotion if I am in this given situation. Are these tools still applicable or do we need to go deeper into the root cause and look into the emotion? And why are we reacting like that? And then I can apply the instructions that you were mentioning earlier. We can do if need be. So we'd start off with how it is that you present. What is it that you want your audience to feel?

10:43Whoever that audience is, one person, thousand, ten thousand people. And if there's a mismatch, we'd have to take it to a deeper level. Say, okay, why is it when you say this, why do you express concern or desperation or intent in this manner? Because it's not connecting to the audience. And then we talk about the range of different ways we can show the same emotion. We can show anger in a number of different ways. You don't have to do this in order to be angry. you can do this and still show the same. And how long does that take to learn? Because someone may be showing anger, the emotion of anger in a particular way because he or she has seen his or her father portray anger in that particular way for a number of years.

11:32So maybe to an extent that's engraved in your system right now. How easy is for someone maybe applying your techniques at home to be able to shift that mindset and portray anger in a different way from a communication point of view that becomes more effective at reaching your goals, whether they are personal, at home, or professional at work? It depends on the individual. That's very important for me to say that. It also depends on they have to know that the technique works. If they don't see the power, if they don't see the benefit of the technique, it's not going to work. So they have to see that actually by changing their approach, they'll get a positive outcome.

12:14So once you can see that when you evoke a change, you get more of what it is that you want. That reaffirmation. Absolutely. So then that perpetuates and propagates and strengthens what it is that you're doing. I can relate to that. I'm going to give a comparable example in a different context. So I would assume as any person, I'm evolving. I'm evolving into a different person, a person that is still building his character. And I think our character is very much built throughout our entire lives. I don't think we're ever the same person. So I try to be very analytical and try to be as progressive as possible and open mind to change.

12:59So let's say that years ago, I used to think that depending on the situation, a different version of myself would be required in order for me to achieve my goal. And that sounded and seemed quite logical and effective in my mind. So let me give you an example. Let's say if you play PlayStation and you know, if you've heard of the game Call of Duty, depending on your opponent, you may choose a different weapon. So if I am fighting against one person, I may choose a knife. But if I'm fighting against an army, I may choose a bazooka. But you shouldn't choose a bazooka if you're fighting just one person and a knife if you're fighting an entire army, right?

13:38So I would apply that approach depending on the situation. So what version of myself is it needed in this given scenario? Do I need to be a more assertive version of myself, a more calm down, comprehensive, or a bit more even, I would say, maybe aggressive or firm? And then I realized that, generally speaking, I was basically my biggest action link from the outcome. So in this particular example, if I'm a calmer version of myself and I am more open-minded and more forgiveful, I can forgive, let's say, at home or at work, and I'm more flexible and patient, the outcome of whatever I want to achieve with any person would be greater than if I am, let's say, a bit more radical, a bit more firm, things need to be in this way, a bit more binary, black or white.

14:36And I thought that maybe, depending on the person that I would be talking to, that's what it was required for me. But I quickly realized from the reaction, from the result that actually, if I want to drive change in this person at work, one of my employees, I want them to do something different. Actually, that's not working. It isn't working. And the only thing that changed my mindset into changing my behavior was seeing the result. It was not by looking at different methodologies, by getting advices from different people. It was me really looking at, okay, I've tested this. This worked. This didn't work.

15:07I'm going to stay with what really works. I want you to give me some of the most common mistakes you see we all do when we speak, for example, at home or at work when it comes to speaking. Okay. People generally speak too fast. people generally speak too fast. And it's understandable. You told me this in the first session we had. And it's part of culture. Are there different speeds? Because I remember you told me that there's like different ranges. So speed number five is speed number all the way until 10. So there is this, people will bounce around data points here and there. They'll say that, you know, normal conversational speech is about 150 words per minute.

15:51but see the reason i don't like people anchoring on that is because it depends on the context it's more nuanced than that you come from a background where you speak your spanish speaker you speak it very fast it's because it's part of how you're feeling when you speak it yeah it's part of how you've grown up speaking it yeah if you were to speak that at home everyone would understand you and it would be considered to be the norm. Can you do that when you're addressing people on a podcast, for example, or an audience or people who work for you and asking them to do something? Not necessarily. So you have to adapt to change.

16:30So first, people speak too fast. People don't complete their sentences when they speak. I'm going to give you an example. Can I give you an example? When it comes in the workplace, you have people who are unprepared. People don't really think about what it is they want to say before they say it. So if you're sitting in a meeting and someone wants to make a contribution, what I have found is people either don't make a contribution or when they do make a contribution, they haven't really thought out what it is that they wish to say. They blurt something out and then self-awareness kicks in. They realize that they've blurted something out and then they want to try and salvage it and save it.

17:09And all that happens is they end up making a mess of it completely. So it's basically that people talk to, basically people listen to respond, not listen to understand. Correct. And that happens especially in the home. Yeah. Between couples, myself and my wife. Well, I'm a culprit of it as well. Depending on what's going on, my wife will say something and I know what she's going to say. We've been together for 25 years. So I'm going to, the brain notices patterns. so i'm going to to be efficient i'm going to have an answer ready and i have to stop myself action reaction action reaction what should we do in those moments listen listen just listen to process yeah don't listen to respond listen to understand take a beat take a moment especially important when it comes to children i'm a parent speech and language therapist i'm supposed to know this but i'm human too so when my daughter's asking me 14 different questions about why it is that water is wet or who invented spoons i'm trying to i'm trying to move the conversation along because it's it's one of those conversations that becomes so entrenched and the fact is i don't know darling but i'm going to try and help you out but if you listen to respond and guide take your time it's where active listening comes in if you like and this is a thing about communication or being a speech coach.

18:33It's not just about this all the time. It is about listening. It's about processing. It's about listening to what is being said and also to what is not being said. So we speak too fast. We don't finish what we say, particularly at home. And we are on a responsive default mode because we don't listen to understand. Now, if I take this into a professional, more public context, someone that needs to address larger masses, let's say maybe a boardroom or even a public speaker. Why do a lot of people become nervous right before going on stage? Like why are we afraid of that by default? It's the amount of exposure.

19:18You've got a thousand sets of eyes on you when you're speaking. You feel like you're on trial. Your entire being is on trial. Your entire worth is on trial. A billion people, billion pairs of eyes looking at me right now. And if I give in to that, I'll be second guessing everything that it is that I'm saying. When in fact, all you're supposed to really focus on is making sure your message gets delivered in the way you want it to be delivered. Do you think this feeling ever goes away, even for the most professional public speakers? I think you become accustomed to it. I think you get used to it.

19:59You see, if you have the same performance taking place on the same stage, it becomes the same thing. It becomes normal. What is there to be nervous about? Nothing. I'll do the same thing I did yesterday. It's the same thing I did. The same thing that I've been doing for months. I think, so as the more you do something, the better you get. If your audience changes or your venue changes, you're going to have some nerves. but overall because you've done it before your confidence will increase yeah it's like i drive not a very good driver but i drive when we go abroad my wife drives first she's a better driver i need to see how people are driving on on the other side until i get used to it and then i get used to it and i become a more comfortable competent confident driver so i guess in order to answer the question in a more succinct fashion people become scared because of the amount of exposure they feel like they're revealing their whole self and everything they are yeah to an audience they fear being judged they fear being evaluated they fear that they're no one's going to believe what it is that they're saying they also believe what am i doing here am i the right person for this job Have I earned the right to my place and space?

21:21Imposter syndrome. Exactly. Imposter syndrome. And it's the same right the way across the board. Multimillionaire CEOs all the way down to a person who just wants to complete a job interview and get the right job. So what you're saying is that if anyone is feeling this, they should think that it's normal, that everyone feels that. 100%. Absolutely. And the people that you see on stage have practiced and polished their performance. Yes. And how important it is the way we say things through our tone, the melody of our voice, our body language, in comparison to the actual thing we're saying? It's all one globule.

22:04Everything has to connect and harmonize into one. You're right. It's not just the words and the sentences. it's the tone it's the tone the body language your body language has to marry with what it is that you're saying if it's like how are you doing alberto i'm really well it's not going to really add up properly is it and the brain will not make the connection it will notice a mismatch and if it notices a mismatch it's too busy trying to decipher why that mismatch happened as opposed to listening to what it is that you're saying? I've always thought that the way we say things can be more powerful than the actual thing that we're saying because I've sat down across numerous tables in which different founders were pitching their ideas either for me to invest or some other people to invest.

22:53And also across so many of my employees, especially in my industry, some of them are client facing, so they need to sell things. And I've always seen that. Let's take the example of a founder, right? That is trying to raise some funds. If a confident founder is selling you something that is like, ah, you know, I can see it. Yeah. But like the founder is incredibly confident, articulate. I have seen in multiple locations, cross-sector, that the chances of successfully fundraising are much higher than a founder that has been working tirelessly to get the numbers right. The data is on point. Everything from a qualitative and quantitative point of view makes so much sense.

23:39But the founder seems nervous. He or she seems not confident. and that has seen a direct impact into the outcome that they want, which is getting that investment. If I take this example into sales, for example, my teams, we have different restaurants, different price points in different areas of London, many restaurants, and we have different programs to teach them how to sell, upsell, cross-sell. But throughout the years, in the last eight years, one of the things that we have embedded into every training program, regardless of the type of restaurant that it is, whether it's the cuisine or a very expensive, high-end restaurant or more of an entry-level, more cost-effective type of restaurant is the confidence.

24:26Because you could explain the product or the service very well, almost listing like 70 ingredients in your head and delivering that almost like a reporter, right? If you're a news reporter, I could say on today's menu, we have five different dishes that are made of A, B, C, and D, and they're costing you A, B, C, and D, rather than being more. Today we have five different menus, so five different dishes that are outside of our menu, and you're going to love them because they're only available for five days. That type of approach, even though he may not know as well what he or she is selling, we have seen firsthand so many times that it's much more effective at in that case selling at achieving your desired goal and the body language has so much to do also with it yes why why is our mouth so disconnected from our body that's a good question i think maybe because of lack of practice or lack of knowledge or lack of intuition.

25:38People believe, and you and I were talking about this before, people believe that just because they can talk, they can speak, or just because they can speak, they can talk, depending on which end you want to use, speak or talk, and differentiate between the two. What's the difference between talking and speaking? Well, depending on which book you read, you can take it either way. Yeah. One is the ability to communicate verbally. Which one is that one? Let's say speak. Okay. Can your child speak? Yes. or in fact, let's call it talk. Okay, can you talk? Can you talk? Yes, I can open my mouth and I can put together these speech sounds and put them together in a way that you want to understand.

26:15Speaking is using that tool and enhancing it in order to engage, influence, inspire. It's the similar thing to just because I can walk, I can do the marathon. They're not the same. it requires practice going back to the question though why are we disconnected nowadays i think because a lot of technology has come into play a lot of meetings take place on video calling platforms zoom ms teams google meets how many people use their hands yeah it's just the face how many people know how to use facial expressions you have the benefit of coming from a culture that uses facial expressions in order to express how a person is truly feeling you and i've been working and i've noticed that some twitch has happened and i've gone let's stop there alberto yeah what's happened i know this because i'm tuned into you you use it because it's part of culture yeah but for those people who are especially now growing up purely on screen they don't know how to connect mouth to body to facial expressions to hand movement they just think everything takes place here yeah i think you've mentioned something that i believe is very important here which is practice so we we're all taught to speak right perhaps initially by our parents and then it's been perfected by our teachers but they're just teaching us you're right to to talk nobody is teaching us how to speak, how to change our intonation, and maybe the speed in which we are speaking or how we're using pauses in one way or another to make emphasis to a point.

27:59And if we're not practicing that, right, we're not practicing that just because we're able to talk, we think that we will be able to get our way, right, to accomplish our goals. So yeah, that makes so much sense. We need to practice these things how many times have you said or been in a situation whereby you think you know what it is that you have to say you've not written it down you're not even verbalized it appropriately or practiced it when the moment comes it's gone it just doesn't come out or when it comes out it's a clutter yeah it doesn't make sense you mentioned something about our teachers and how we are encouraged to be able to know how to speak, how to engage.

28:44And I think we used to do that a lot many years ago. When I was growing up, as much as I can remember, we were encouraged to go in front of the class with a book and read aloud. And it didn't matter whether you were good. What mattered was you had the opportunity to stand in front of people and speak. So that's a good exercise, to read aloud. It's an amazing exercise. Reading aloud is one of what I would consider to be my pillars of practice. Read aloud. Read aloud. And when you're reading aloud, read aloud in the manner that the text was meant to be delivered. What do you mean by that? So I like starting with children's books, something like Roald Dahl or even Harry Potter, for example.

29:29Children's books are meant to be read by children. If you're reading a children's book aloud, read it aloud as though you're reading it to children. And what does that mean? It means that you have to use a variable intonation pattern. Because if you don't, the children aren't going to pay attention and they'll be distracted and you'll lose their attention and that'll be it. Off they go. If you speak too slow, remember that people are building a moving picture when you're speaking. when you're speaking to me when you're delivering information my brain because the brain thinks in pictures is building up a moving image if you're too slow i've already built the image and the brain gets impatient i can't wait for you to labor it and give all the many billion hues of different colors you want to put in your environment i'll switch off i won't pay attention conversely if you're speaking too fast i can't build the picture as fast as you're delivering all the information.

30:29Why am I going to try so hard? My brain goes, this is too much effort, so I'm going to stop. So speed helps you build a clear picture in the other person's brain. Correct. Speed, intonation. What is intonation and how does that help? Intonation is the way your voice moves when you're speaking to different people. So at the moment I could say, this is the way, my name is Vinny and I'm a public speaking coach. Or my name is Vinny and I'm a public speaking coach. The example you gave about someone giving information about what's on the menu. Today, we have five desserts. The first one's a lemon sorbet.

31:04The second one's a chocolate ice cream. The third one's a chocolate eclair. Today, we have five different desserts. We have a lemon sorbet. We have a chocolate eclair. And we have a chocolate ice cream. Because you're moving, the brain or the auditory center in your brain needs to be stimulated in order to pay attention to an incoming signal. It's pure science, pure neuroscience. If there is no change in that incoming signal, there is no excitement of the auditory nerve. It doesn't tell the brain to pay attention to the signal. People switch off. So to keep people's attention, we need to change the intonation throughout the entire conversation?

31:44Yes, absolutely. Up and down. Up and down. But not like you're a car salesman from Alabama, unless you're a car salesman from Alabama. Yeah. It has to fit the context right so when you say someone even in spanish okay seguro like it's in your voice like yeah for real like did you mean that yeah it entices it invokes it kind of pulls you in so a variable intonation pattern is key to keeping an audience engaged when you're referring to intonation does that mean high pitch low pitch like correct it means going through that for example the gap if you hire between the high pitch and the low pitch and keeping your voice modulated somewhere in between that it means not speaking like this all the time like you sound like a robot or plane plane or if you went to my college or my university you'll find that some lecturers speak like this and you're sitting in the front of that class and you're falling asleep you're interested in the topic but the lack of enthusiasm or the lack of yeah the poor contours between the poor intonation contours of the incoming voice signal or incoming sound signal means that your brain is falling asleep and you can't help it yeah and how should we practice this at home read aloud sir read aloud children's books read aloud poetry read aloud something from the newspaper.

33:12So if you watch the news, whichever channel you watch, you will notice that the news is delivered in a particular kind of way. Good morning. And in London today, there was a tube strike, so on and so forth. These many trains were affected, so on and so forth. It's done in a particular way so that your brain attends to the incoming sound signal. Very quickly, if you ever pay attention to children's programs note how they're being presented good morning boys and girls today i'm going to move my voice up and down so you are constantly engaged to what it is that i'm saying do i have your attention great let's go and when do we know that we are overly doing that because if you do that with a kid that makes sense because the kid needs that extra extravaganza or or acting for them to be engaged but perhaps an adult doesn't need that correct too much too much of that in the wrong audience and you come across this there's a mismatch and you can come across as being patronizing but the ability to do this in practice gives you the ability to do this oh in um um in performance if you like so it's about exploring all your ranges of intonation and then being able to apply them tailored to a given situation.

34:34Correct. One of the things I ask my clients to do is over-exaggerate when they're practicing in the knowledge that when they come into a more formal situation, they will automatically become a bit more conservative. How can you exaggerate what you're saying? So, or the way you're saying it, sorry. So, if I were to do it in context, one of the things I do is I ask all of my clients to over exaggerate what it is they're saying in terms of intonation patterns something like this and what that means is that when they practice at this level once they come into a more formal context they're able to tie it back in they'll automatically become more conservative meaning that this intonation pattern still remains you're still engaged and i'm still or they're still using best practice in order to maintain the audience's engagement but they're have to be like this all the time that seems to be like high upwards happy but can you also exaggerate a sad intonation absolutely how can you do that because the reason why i'm asking this is because i do public speak i i i perform at different events and i do public speaking but also when i prepare for this podcast i do have a specific ritual and one of them is reading out loud twice the script and I tried exaggerated.

35:57But obviously, if I'm asking you, what did you have this morning for breakfast? That's a completely different question than if I ask you, how did you feel when your father passed away? So if I'm still trying to apply the technique to exaggerate it, how can I exaggerate both examples? So taking into account what it is that you wish to achieve and the question that you're asking, if you're asking me about how my father passed away, that's not a joyous occasion, not for me. And so you know automatically that the tone that you'll be using will be a more solemn, more somber tone. But even in somber tones, we can go up and down in our intonation patterns.

36:35It's the tone or the pitch that changes that tells you what the mood of that conversation or of that topic is going to be. You can still move up and down and keep a very low tone, such as this, for example. How was it when your father passed away did you enjoy breakfast how did you get here today so the pitch and tone can vary in accordance to what it is that you're talking about so when we're reading to practice let's say children's book out loud and there's a happy moment we should aim to go upwards with our intonation and exaggerate it and then if it's a sad moment like and they kill bambi you should go downwards and then they kill bambi absolutely they looked for bambi's mother yeah and they had killed her stereotypically speaking when we are talking about something that is joyous and bright our voice is joyous and bright which is caters towards or moves towards the higher intonation patterns, right?

37:42The higher pitch, higher tones. When we're talking about something that is quite sad, it's somber, it's solemn, we tend to drop the tone and drop the pitch because exciting, excitation levels have to come down because you're not talking about something that is so exciting. And then maybe for someone in their forties and fifties in which they, they do want to improve their communication skills, maybe particularly at work, but they think that they're too old to change old habits what would you say to them absolute nonsense you're never too old to change habits all you need is guided practice you need to know what it is that you wish to change how is it that you wish to be seen or accepted or heard by your audience and then follow the exercises to make those changes.

38:34And I have sat down with probably some of the best neuroscientists in this podcast. And it is true that our brain, it is relatively more plastic. The neuroplasticity of our brain is greater when we're younger, but we still have the ability to learn new things at an adult stage. But it requires just more practice. You need to do it more. It needs more practice and variety. So if I were to ask you this, I'm a client and I'm going to start working with you, or at least I'm going to start applying your techniques at home. How long will it take me if I am an adult in my 30s or 40s, grown up adult, to change my old habits?

39:17it depends on you it depends on what your targets are and what habit you're changing but with the right exercise after i've you and i would have gone through an evaluation and assessment i would pick the right exercise you could evoke a change right now right this minute an hour how often should we should we be reading out loud every day every day every day for how long two three minutes it doesn't need to be you don't need to read aloud war and peace by tall story poetry read poetry you have a partner read poetry to your partner yeah poetry is supposed to be delivered to people yeah even those poets edward thomas depressive wrote poetry for himself he wanted those poems to be discovered so that someone else would understand how he was feeling poems are written more often than not for other people read newspapers read books read the back of a cereal carton, cereal box.

40:15See if you can make riboflavin and fortified with vitamins and iron come alive. Read aloud. The best thing you can do when you can't have conversations with other people, because there's no one around that you can practice with. Read aloud. What's a good example of a good public speaker, maybe a person that our audience may know? And then what's an example of someone, again, that it's a celebrity, someone that is recognized and known, that is not a great public speaker, so we can compare the both. When it comes to making example, talking about examples of this, it's really easy for me to go into politics because the examples are plentiful and quite prominent as well.

41:00So irrespective of your politics, if you look at someone like Barack Obama, Tony Blair, two people who when they spoke, people listened. Why? Because they were measured when they spoke. They used an appropriate speed. They were clear when they spoke. They formulated their words and sentences and completed the words and sentences. There was an end point. they didn't allow one word to blend into another word to blend into another word so it gets lost they the intonation patterns changed as well i believe they started with something that we should do x y and z in order to make this country go forward intonation patterns volume and voice projection they looked at the audience if you watch particularly blair and obama if you look at the way they look at their audience when they're speaking, it feels as though they're talking to you.

42:03Now, compare that to, again, irrespective of your politics, the current Prime Minister of this country, Keir Starmer. There is very little change in his intonation pattern he speaks almost monotone he will pause but there is no life in his voice there is no variation in his voice i don't know whether it's safe for me to do so here but i will say it anyway i have contacted him letting him know that maybe he could deal with some support and he had a voice coach between 2012 and 2015 so he did a bad job i think that he still requires a bit more support if someone wants to improve their way they communicate today where should they start right so the first thing that they should do is find out what it is they want to improve it's always good to be focused so write a list maybe this is something that other people have told you or maybe this is something that you feel well let's get some tangible evidence first so record yourself record your voice record yourself speaking if you like and make some notes do you like the sound of your voice?

43:17What is it about it that you would like to change? Do you like the way that you present when you're standing on stage or when you're sitting down? Again, what is it that you'd like to change? There are different terms going around for this. You have your vocal profile, you have your physical profile, so on and so forth. But make notes. And then start looking at the exercises you need to complete. So if you want to be a clearer communicator, start enunciating your words so every single sound in every single word when you speak make sure you complete them every sound in a word has a given duration that needs to be appreciated in order for the word to be understood yeah so appreciate that sound when you're speaking in sentences it is common for one word to blend into another word it's really common it's called a connected speech process and that is how general discussion takes place.

44:17But if you want to be clearer, understand that the word discombobulate, for example, has a definite ending. And say the last syllable. Make sure you enunciate it, pronounce it effectively. Okay. See, the joy of doing that is automatically you will slow down as well because you have to pay attention to the sounds that you are saying. Yeah. So just by doing that one exercise, you become clearer and you slow yourself down. If you want to practice having better intonation patterns, read children's books, read simple poetry, but deliver it in the way that it's supposed to be delivered. We can even do something much simpler than that.

45:00Take a song, a song that everyone knows. Happy birthday. You can say that in so many different ways to show your intonation patterns, for example. yeah happy birthday to you happy birthday to you not exactly joyous is it it's actually quite sinister almost like i'm having a birthday by myself because i've lost everyone as opposed to happy birthday to you happy birthday to you you've got a bit of my singing voice there so by improving using a common phrase or a common song play with your intonation patterns and that would help with intonation and lastly so three pillars read read don't scan read people don't read anymore they think they read but what they actually do is scan so they're looking for information i scan yes i scan scanning is good scanning is great depending on what it is that you wish to achieve if you're looking for information on screen which is it which it is most of the time now, as opposed to in a book.

46:06You look for certain buzzwords, you find the buzzwords, take a deeper dive, find out that section, and then you move on. That's to one side. I want you to read and let your imagination go wild. Read because you want to improve the store of words that you have available to you. Read books. Read fiction. So not the news. I need to read a book. I would say, to start with, start reading fiction. Absolutely. Fiction. And the reason you would use fiction is because fictional novels allow your imagination to go wild. When your imagination is in play, things stick. You remember information. So you would find a beautiful word like capricious, for example.

46:50I have no idea what the word capricious means. It came into my head just now. But it sounds great. And I know of that word because I read it in a novel. and I know that if I had read it in a self-help book or a book where you're trying to find out some general knowledge or so on and so forth, it wouldn't stick. Your imagination plays a huge role in gathering and retaining certain words and language that you will use when communicating.

47:27now if someone is a professional public speaker or someone is about to address a large audience what should they do right before going on stage that's a really interesting question and i think a lot of that's very personal to each individual everyone has their own rituals right yeah my ritual for example has changed over the last few years so when i wasn't a parent it was breathe in for four hold for four breathe out for six that's called box breathing breathing box breathing or compartmentalized breathing and i picked that up from studying martial arts it was a way to calm the mind and make sure you're not giving into all these different uh stimulations that are around your excitement so on and so forth.

48:16So it really calms you down, allows you to be at peace and allows you to go on stage. I became a dad and it was, okay, booba, daddy's got to go to work. And I'm gone, that's it. I say that and now that I'm a father of two, okay, kiddos, daddy's got to go to work. That's what I say to myself because that's what it is for me. I step up on stage. So you say that to yourself right before you go on stage. I say that on stage. Even before I came, before I walked in through that door today, to do this podcast, I said to myself, right, kiddos, then it's got to go to work. So it's about, it's interesting because I feel like they're both giving you the same thing, but in a different way.

48:56So the first one is calming you, but the second one is, it's maybe giving you confidence because you are doing this for a better cause or there's a bigger picture, like in this case, maybe providing for your kids. So that doesn't put you in the center of the situation or the problem. so it calms you down again. For me, it takes away the pressure of performance. And it lets me know that, hey, my kids think I'm fantastic. And that's what I need to feel when I get on that stage, that I've earned the right to my place and space to be here. And it takes away that whole fear of, is what I'm saying correct?

49:36Are people going to believe me? I don't need to think about that at this moment in time. All that took place way before I came here as I was preparing. Right before I go on stage, I needed to be clean cut what my purpose is. I'm here to serve. How do I put myself in the right gear for that? I think of my kids now that I have them. When I didn't have them, I thought of what it was that I needed to do in order to make sure I could give my best self when I was on that stage. And if someone wants to start a powerful conversation with someone, It could be a one-to-one conversation. What should they do?

50:15It's always good to talk about something you can both notice. One of the best conversations I had, I was in the Shangri-La Hotel in Hong Kong. I was doing some coaching in Hong Kong. And I'm in the lift. And the lift door opens, and in walks a guy who has got the snappiest suit I had ever seen. it had like a yellow pocket handkerchief and it was like a cerulean blue color and his shoes were they they matched I can't remember what his shoes were but he looked the part he also was older than me so I noticed the age and I noticed the suit I noticed the lady on his arm everything was like pow and I had to say something this isn't one of those things that I felt compelled to say something and he only went one floor down but as the left door opened he said after you i said sir can i just say that's one heck of a snappy suit i was there wearing my kareem abdul jabbar miami dolphins and he said i was going to say the same about your top and that interaction led to a two-hour a drink at the bar so notice something make a comment be pleasant almost like praising someone with the first thing you say to them or making a connection on something that you can both almost relate relate to um at the airport i'm there waiting for my luggage to come down the on the conveyor belt a guy picks up a suitcase takes it off the conveyor belt looks at it and throws it back on and i looked at him and said yeah i didn't like that one either mate i would have let that one go again a 20 minute conversation ensued where he'd come from where he was going and everyone laughed so if you want to make a powerful beginning or a powerful introduction do something or say something that everyone can relate to and sometimes we we want to send a message across and it's a very important message.

52:20It could be at home with our partners, or it could be at work to a colleague or our boss, but we get interrupted and that breaks our flow and our pattern. What should we do in that moment? Should we start from the very beginning? Should we continue where we left off? Should we change our intonation? Should we pause? It really depends on why the interruption is being cause and who's doing the interrupting so let's say you and i have a conversation and every time you speak i have something i need to tell you and that means that your communication becomes jarred or it it's now becoming fragmented yeah one thing you could say is just one moment i'll finish this and then i'd love to hear what you'd have to say because the reason why i'm asking this is because I feel like this happened to me.

53:18Again, whether it's at home or at work, if I want to share an important message and I'm being interrupted, and I've seen also this in other people, I feel like the conversation, the speed of the conversation accelerates and it's almost like you're racing against the other person to get your message across. And I'm not the expert, but that just doesn't sound effective. So should I maybe slow down even more my response just to bring it back to a baseline speed. That's one thing you can do. But before that, just manage the other person's expectations. Say one moment, I've got to tell you this. Hear me out.

53:56And then the floor is yours. So if every time you speak, someone's going, and it's interrupting you, and you feel like you have to get the message out before he gives the next introduction, what you let them know is, let them know how the stage is. Let them know exactly what it is to expect. I've got to tell you this. It's really important. I'll let you have the floor afterwards. I promise. That's a long-winded way of saying it. A shorter way of saying it is just saying, just a moment. Or if I could just finish. I don't think you need to start everything again. I think you should check with the audience.

54:31Were you with me so far? Do I need to start again? So just to quickly summarize, I did X, Y, and Z, which leads me to A, B, and C. sometimes slowing it right down can be a fantastic method to use well so you're going at your normal speed and someone keeps interrupting okay so what i'm trying to say is this this is how i think we should go forward and then after that we can do x y and z a b and c p q and r there's a number of different methods you could use but in the first place the first thing to do is manage their expectations let them know what it is to expect from you and none out of 10 times that generally works and if they keep interrupting you can use your body language to say one moment please do allow me to finish you can say that once twice maybe three times and then you need to step it up a gear and do something different yeah and what about breathing because you mentioned your boxing breathing technique right before going on stage.

55:35But I guess you cannot do that mid-weeks with a conversation because people will be like, what the hell are you doing? Not a good idea. But I would assume also that breathing is very important. And the reason why I'm saying this is because I've recently had the pleasure of interviewing one of the UK's best breathing coaches. And he told me things like when you're nervous, let's say you're reading an email, you hold your breath unconsciously. And that's affecting your brain. You're going to release different neurochemicals that are going to stress you. So just being aware of your breathing would help you in different circumstances.

56:08Should we breathe in any different way if we want to change our intonation, our pauses, our delivery as a whole? Not necessarily. So what a lot of people don't do is they don't breathe using their diaphragm, what I found out. A lot of my clients, they either present with thoracic breathing, which is breathing just from the chest. Yeah. or clavecular breathing, which is where your shoulders go up in order to try and snatch oxygen from the air outside. Now, both of those have their place. But when speaking, what you want to do is breathe from your diaphragm. And when you breathe from your diaphragm, you're taking in the best possible breath you can take.

56:52Understanding that the breath is the fuel necessary, not just for life, but for communication. If you want to be heard, you've got to have some air in you. And if you're going to be speaking for a long time, you need to learn how to regulate what it is that you're saying. And our diaphragm regulates it better. Our breathing from your diaphragm, engaging your diaphragm, means that you're taking in your full lung capacity. So you're breathing efficiently and effectively. So in simple terms, that means inflating, so to speak, your stomach when you're breathing in. That's the way it will feel. Absolutely.

57:30Because I think if I'm not mistaken, the diaphragm moves down and broadens, which means it's pulling all the oxygen in from the outside. And in order to do that, your stomach muscles will start protruding somewhat. So it does feel like you're getting fat a little bit. Interesting. Let's talk about pausing. What's the power of pausing?

57:57okay so so vinnie just the episode's still going but he just paused there's a number of things it creates tension for example it allows the other person to process what it is that you're saying it brings people to a cliffhanger before you deliver the goods Pausing is extremely powerful, but you can't be doing it bloody everywhere because it doesn't make sense. And I think of late people have, as you know, trends come and go. And the power of pause has been a trend that has come up. And it has its place because sometimes people go up on stage and I've got this much, these many things to say in this much time.

58:51So I'm just going to keep talking and talking and talking and talking and talking, because all I'm here to do is deliver information to you. So I'm not really presenting. I am just giving, if you like. And you do with it what you will. Pausing gives people points where they can actually process. So it's points of processing. If you've said something, they say that the fear of public speaking is second only to the fear of death. the fear of public speaking is second only to the fear of death. Now let's talk about that a little bit. So when you make a statement, if you think your statement is going to be powerful, if you want it to land, allow people to process it.

59:39And that's what pausing does. I've always considered pausing a very presidential skill. Yes. But I feel like, unfortunately, for—and maybe I'm wrong here, and I would like for you to correct me if I'm wrong—but I feel like for almost the rest of the population, we don't have the chance to pause because then is when we will be interrupted. And I feel like sometimes the other person listening, they may use that pause as an intro for them to speak. So, in the simplest of terms, when should we pause in a conversation? Whatever you feel the need, but it's not just pausing. It's how you said the statement before you came to the pause.

1:00:28Because if you've used the right intonation patterns and your communicator is in tune with you, they will know this is the time not to interrupt. If they have interrupted, they're listening to respond. They're not listening to process the information that you're giving them. And if you feel that they are going to interrupt you, that's when you have to use other signals, for example, body language. Stop.

1:01:03Or when it comes to my daughter, she's got so many things to tell me when she comes back from school baby slow down okay and then she starts as opposed to the yeah but yeah but yeah but hold on but this but you said i said no wait what did i say i didn't mean do you really think i meant it that slow it down so it's a lot to do with a what is being said and what and how you're going to say what you need to say to evoke or implement that pause. So if I were to summarize to an extent the different important factors of speaking, it would be the ability to use the pauses at the right time, the speed and the intonation.

1:01:54And then we should choose a different form of this, So either longer pauses, shorter pauses, more pauses or less pauses, higher intonation, so higher pitch, lower pitch, a faster speed or a slower speed according to our audience. According to context. With intonation, it's variation rather than height and depth. Speed, you have to speak in a speed that can be understood. And again, in accordance to your audience. Pausing, it depends on not only who you're speaking to, but what you're speaking about. Can you share a story of a client who completely transformed their lives after using your techniques?

1:02:39Gosh. Yes, but due to an NDI, I can't give their name. Okay. A CEO, a seasoned CEO, approached me and told me that they had difficulties when it came to giving meetings to their board. And they were the CEO, multi-million pound international company, multi-million dollar international company. And they would sweat. And they would stutter and stammer their words and become tense, turn red. And it would be so difficult for them to breathe. Three sessions, much more comfortable. After 12 sessions, they were giving one hour, 90 minute conversations, discussions, meetings, and presentations without, like they'd been doing it for years.

1:03:30The amount of joy, the amount of freedom they felt from this was exactly why I do what it is that I do. Now I can't stop speaking. Now I'll volunteer for everything. I had, and that's someone in the CEO in the business world. I had a father who had a stammer and they wanted to be able to speak at their daughter's wedding. And he was so nervous that to speak, that he would break down. I don't know if I'm going to do it. I don't know if I've got the courage. I said, I don't know if I've got the balls to do it. I don't know if I've got the talent. I don't know if I've got the skillset. Okay. He spent one day with me.

1:04:21one full day no more stammer and he gave an amazing speech he calls me up on the day it was about a few years ago in august and i'm surprised i'm like aren't you supposed to be at a wedding and he goes yeah he goes i messed it up mate couldn't do it couldn't do it at all i go well now's not the time to be talking about this we'll talk about this at a session or something go and have a good time because what are you talking about me i smashed it he said i think you're pulling me off stage yeah so and then i have someone else who was again very high up senior vice president petrified of public speaking very powerful woman very very powerful woman if you were to look at her cv you wouldn't expect this to be a limitation or an area for development finished working with her after a few sessions people were asking for asking her for coaching sessions how do you get this done how is it that you went from a to b very very quickly so it's the ability to to communicate clearly and effectively is experienced by by everyone it almost seems to me like you need to become another person because if i change the way let's say i'm 29 30 years old and i've been speaking with the same tone the same speed and using the same frequency of pauses for 30 years in my life so my friends my family and my work environment they they know me in that way but if all of a sudden i change it and i i change a little bit the tone of my voice i lower my pitch and then i pause like it almost feels like i'm a different person and then that can feel scary like do i want to be a different person what would you say to a person thinking that?

1:06:17Like, do you need to become a different person? No, not at all. But you have to understand that we have to adapt to environments. So I call this code switching. You use different codes for different modes. Mr. Zandi, you will speak to me in a different way. Then you will speak to your partner. Then you will speak to your parents, for example. And that's the way it needs to be. I'm a different person speaking to you, speaking to my daughter, speaking to the homeboys that I hang around with at home, speaking to my partner, speaking to my wife, who is my partner, by the way. And you're not moving away from your authentic self.

1:06:54You're adapting in order to get the message across as effectively as possible. If you've got to tell a scary story, you're not going to say it in this kind of voice, right? And at the same time, if you've got to tell a happy story, well, then you're not going to use this particular kind of voice. It doesn't make sense. I remember when you and I started working, I think it was over a year ago, So in the initial sessions, one of my homework that I needed to do at home was to basically try everything that we were doing in our sessions. And one of those things was changing drastically my intonations in not only when I was reading out loud, but in close circles.

1:07:31So, for example, my twin brother, who's also my business partner, I didn't tell him that I was testing these things with him. But I would like, for example, in the first two months of working with you, I would drastically change my intonation and then go super high pitch or then go very low. And I remember like for like a week or two, every time I was doing that, my brother would look at me like, I don't know, like if he smelled a very strong fart, like with such a disgust face. And, but, but again, I guess I had to like go through that and, and practice what you were teaching me because you can tell me that this technique will help me.

1:08:06But if I don't test it and implement it and see that I can go very high and very low when it comes to my intonations and I can pause and see when it works, I would have not been able to right now, which I can definitely say that I'm a much better public speaker, both on camera and off camera. And this is not my first language, by the way. So that added a layer of complexity to me. But again, I think testing this trial and error, practicing it with a trusted environment, in this case it was my brother, but it could be anybody that you trust, is incredibly important. But what really struck my attention is that the melody of our voice, our intonation, can invoke a completely different emotion, perhaps even more important than what we're saying.

1:08:54I can say, Vinny, I love you so much that you're going to think, are you dumb? Rather than me saying, Vinny, I love you so much. Can you tell me how the melody of our voices can invoke different emotions? Explain it to me. I can definitely try. so we know by the culture and we're in and how we grow up that high pitched or certain tones at certain pitches evoke certain feelings in us and we're kind of programmed to it if you ever see the way a mother interacts with a baby how many mothers are going i love you hello good morning how are you oh look at that oh that's a biscuit are you hungry it doesn't work like that so for From the moment we are newborns, we're being programmed in a way.

1:09:53And it's science. The brain, like I said before, the brain picks up on the changes in intonation patterns. No change, no focus, no attention, no learning. Mothers instinctively know this. Fathers instinctively know this. I don't look like the kind of guy who's going to go, hey, baby, how are you? Good morning. look what you've done and the child's reaction to what it is that you're saying self prop is self-propagating so you know the child responds positively you it makes you do the same thing over and over and over again so we learn that high-pitched um intonation patterns are nine out of 10 times related with something exciting, something positive, something bright.

1:10:46Yeah. On the other side, contrastively, when we're talking about something which is somber or sad or you've done something wrong, no one goes, oh my God, you shouldn't have killed that person. It doesn't work that way. Oh, you dropped the, spilt the milk. It doesn't work that way. Why did you do that? How many times have I told you? Yeah. the tone goes down. And the tone goes, and because it's such a massive change from what you're used to, you know your body automatically reacts with a, shit, what have I done wrong? Where's the danger? And so I think it's, well, science and psychology will tell you that it's programmed from, and some will even tell you it's programmed whilst you're still in the womb.

1:11:36Yeah. Because babies are still susceptible to different sound changes. You'll read studies of babies that are born that have experienced trauma because of what was going on out in the outside environment whilst they were in the womb. While you were explaining this, I was thinking about my dog Simba, so my fiancé, and we don't have kids, so unfortunately I can't relate to some of those examples, but I can relate to one extent from my dog. And actually my fiancé Olivia, she was telling me this the other day. She said Simba has like two modalities in terms of understanding things. So we either talk to him like this, you little Simba.

1:12:23Simba is his name. Simba, we love you. Well done. And I sometimes talk to him in Spanish. I say, bravo. But then if he does something, I'm like, Simba, no. No. and he reacts like that immediately immediately he reacts accordingly yeah he will not be excited so imagine that that's the animal kingdom yeah right immediately he's noticed a low deep tone and a curt voice behind it his tail go will go his tail will go between his legs he'll look down keep looking up at you as if to say sorry i didn't mean to do that whatever it was As you know, I've got a small dog, and I do exactly the same thing with him.

1:13:06And he's just under 60 kilos. Yeah, he's a huge dog. Hey, Kano, how are you doing? He's full of beans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he loves me. I'm like, what did you do that for? He's already, you know, he's on the back foot. He thinks he's going to be told off. There's a very quick story I can tell you about this. One of the most interesting clients I've worked with, he calls me up, and I don't work weekends anymore. because I need to spend time with the family. But I got a call on a Saturday. I took it. And it was a gentleman who was in desperate need. He said, I don't know if you can help me, but this is the problem I've got.

1:13:38He was a dog handler at one of His Majesty's prisons up north. And his dog wasn't listening to what his commands were. He'd give a command and his dog would totally just ignore it. So he was a dog handler in a prison. His dog wouldn't follow his commands. Now, they'd been together for about six months. So there was that relationship they needed to build. He had an evaluation and assessment taking place on the Monday. And if he didn't pass, he wouldn't be able to continue in his role. So we spent six hours over two days where I got him to start moving his intonation patterns. So that when he said, good boy, the dog responded.

1:14:25They come on, Charlie, really using your voice. Yeah. Really using your intonation patterns to command. Yeah. And his audience was a canine. And he kept his job. Monday, got the phone call. Thank you very much, Vinny. Kept the job. Wow. Is there a voice tone that would make someone not trust you or not like you? Like if it's too high pitched or too low. too sinister maybe. I think there's a dislike to the sound signal or the style of the sound signal. So things are really like nasally and very shrilly. Nasally. Nasally, so everything is coming like from the north. That sounds so American, sorry.

1:15:10Nothing against the money, by the way. Most of our audience is in the US. Break your part, maybe like... I'll see if I can do a nasally English voice. It's very piercing. Yeah. Very shrilly. And I think that is, I mean, each to their own, but I think the vast majority of the population would find that uncomfortable. And then they would label that discomfort with a personality trait. Why do people speak through or from their noses nasally? It could be habitual. It could be because of accent. It could be because everyone around them. So it's not because you're born with a physical different structure?

1:15:50Not necessarily. Not necessarily. You can then change it? Yes. Yes. So what you would do is you'd seek to try and stop moving all the resonance into your nasal cavity and start releasing a lot more of the air outside your oral tract. There are certain consonants that have to be pronounced in a nasal fashion. Your N's and your M's and your NG's, for example, they have a nasal quality to them. You can't say ring without having a nasal sound, for example. But some people overdo it. Some people do it for fashion. How interesting. So I guess that also changes how people have different accents because some people maybe speak more through the nose than from the mouth, and that varies the accent of the country of the person.

1:16:34Not necessarily accent, but it will vary the sound quality that you're getting. So I can speak in an American accent like this, which is where I'm not being nasal, and then I can really put it on and still not be nasal and then really put it on and change. And I'm raising my nose when I do this. I don't know why. But I think also the media have got a lot to do with this. So with Disney, those people have been Disney-fied, if you like, the Disneyfication. They have a very clear cut, this is good, and this is evil. Evil people speak low and things like this. Or when I'm being sinister, they'll come up with, hey, hey, hey, I'm going to get you now.

1:17:22Right? Those voices are related to like the criminals or the criminal activity. The villains. The villains, that's the word. Whereas if you're speaking really well and really joyfully and so on and so forth, it's associated with being good and bright. Like a smurf. Like a smurf. I wasn't aiming for that, but yeah, like a smurf. And I think that whilst it goes some way into how people see voices as being good, trustworthy, or not good and cannot be trusted, there are people out there that have a nasal voice that can be trusted, obviously. Just going back to the hypernasality, if anyone is experiencing hypernasality or hyponasality, for that reason, that's the other way.

1:18:15So speaking with your nose blocked, so not being able to use your nasal chamber. How does that sound? It sounds as though you've got to block those when you speak. Oh. Because you can't use your nasal chamber to create certain sounds and certain resonance. and it can sound like you're droning to a certain extent. Oh, that sounds annoying. It can, it's more uncomfortable. Yeah. And I've had, of late actually, a couple of clients that have said, you need to go and see an ear, nose and throat surgeon. So I would write a referral to go and see ENT. They would stick a camera up the nose and check out how the nose is.

1:18:59Sometimes it's a deviated septum. So this is more of a physiological problem. Absolutely, an anatomical issue. And they can have a deviated septum. So as your nose, the bridge of your nose deviates, it creates an obstruction. They could have, like my father and a friend of mine had something called rhinosinusitis, where there are just polyps building up in this area, which means it gets blocked like you've got the blocked nose when they're speaking, for example. So if anyone's actually experiencing that, I would ask them to go and see their GP and ask for a referral to ENT.

1:19:41Thank you, Vinny. This is all mega fascinating. I want to change the tone of the conversation and to speak about a topic that is perhaps a bit more emotional and personal to you. and yeah I would very much hope that you allow me to speak about this because you've opened numerous times about your childhood to me during our sessions and you've opened I guess you've opened that window to me because it allowed me to understand you as a person better but also how you became the speech coach that you are today and I think that would also help a lot our audience So your dad was heavy-handed and he was drinking regularly.

1:20:38He was not a patient person with you. And you've described him to me as someone that was not a great father throughout your life. Having said that, in the final months of his life, you were his primary caregiver. You were with him. you were also you told me that you were almost his therapist to one extent what did those final moments teach you about love and forgiveness

1:21:14so i was my father's speech language therapist he had one at mount vernon hospital they knew who I was and I said, I'm going to be bugging you for all the minutiae of detail. Let me take over my father's case. And they were very, very gracious and allowed me to do so. I had bright moments in my life. I think it's important for me to say that. They just became too few and far between as I grew up. And they were peppered and punctuated with forms of discipline that I think were unnecessary.

1:21:55I wasn't an angel, so a couple of smacks here and there was understandable, but when it became a rolling pin, a belt, a monkey wrench, a knife, it just got a bit too much. And that's kind of what caused the play up when I went to high school and why I did drama. What did I learn in the last few moments is that people make mistakes.

1:22:24And I kind of figured that, or I realized that, and it sounds cliched, that maybe he didn't love me the way I wanted to be loved. but he loved me I guess the only way he knew how there wasn't I can say that looking back I was definitely loved but there were pockets where it was vacuous especially when he would come home and drink and shit ask me because I left the milk out the fridge for example and

1:23:11And as ill as he was, and his death was traumatic, he just died in an awful way and a lot of pain.

1:23:24And whilst I'm not necessarily a religious man, I do believe in the universe and so on and so forth. And the opportunity that the universe provided for me to look after my father, my father who didn't really know what it was that I did for a living even though I told him speech and language therapy even when I got published in the Guardian the one newspaper he used to read Christmas Eve in 2004 got published he was over the moon it was momentary and I got my degree over the moon it was momentary got a job over the moon momentary before it all went back to you're useless nothing you do will come of anything you're worthless and these were words he would tell me all the time it comes to a point where you start believing it you know it took me so long to become that I am now so to speak grateful for the experience you have to forgive I was a bitter bitter human being for a long time after my father passed away you have to forgive you cannot go forward not forget by a long shot you have to forgive and i forgave him and i told him and i showed him accolades and letters written by senior members of medical faculties i was working in and places that I had worked and he said he was sorry.

1:24:59And that didn't fix anything, but it allowed a degree of closure.

1:25:08And one thing it did teach me is that I've not lifted a hand on my children. Heck, I get upset if I have to use a stern voice.

1:25:24and my kids my kids know they're loved my eldest knows she's loved the other day we had a conversation and she said uh I said I'm really sorry when I get when I raise my voice at you sweetheart that's not I'm human I'm fallible I'm just trying to grow you correctly she said to me daddy you know sometimes when I don't do it often I like to think she goes sometimes I go upstairs and I cry.

1:25:54And I said, look, I'm really sorry, but you know that I love you. And she goes, well, you know, sometimes for a second, I thought maybe you don't. I was in the car, I hit the brake, I pulled the car to the curb, I took my hat and my glasses off and said, you listen to me, darling. There is nothing on this earth that's going to make me stop loving you. I'll burn everyone's houses down, I'll burn the earth twice. You've got to understand that nothing's going to stop me loving you. I never, and I know what it sounds like me saying this to you, man, I'm going to be 50 in a couple of years. Why am I griping about something that happened in my childhood?

1:26:40I should get over it. I know what it sounds like.

1:26:46But, yeah, I didn't, I'm not complaining that I didn't get that it's just an observation that I didn't get that I think we're all entitled to feel however we want to feel and I don't think we should try to satisfy a definition of society of how we need to be at a particular age I appreciate you opening up about this and the reason why I wanted to shed light into this is because if a person that had such a tough upbringing like yourself was able to be one of the greatest public speakers that I've ever met. Thank you. Than anyone can. Because I've met a lot of people, some friends and work colleagues, that they are brilliant, but they're just not able to send their message through.

1:27:43It just doesn't come across. and then when you speak with them, you realize that maybe when they were young, something happens. Maybe they are the youngest one of a family of four or five and then they were always taken for granted and whatever they were saying was not taken seriously and that really affected their voice, their real voice. So thank you for sharing that. You once told me that your dad told you that you should look at your skin when you are an actor or you wanted to become an actor. He said, Vinny, look at your skin and ask yourself if there are other people that look like you who can succeed.

1:28:22If your father could see you right now, sitting here, as one of the UK's leading speech coaches, what do you think he would say to you? Gosh. And I can hear it. I think he would say, Well done, my son.

1:28:47I'm proud of you.

1:28:53Power of the balls. And if you could say something to him with the voice and the clarity that he's built over these years, what would you want to say to him? Dad, I love you. I forgive you. Thanks for everything, know-howed feelings.

1:29:15See you soon, but not yet. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this. I think these moments of honesty and truth and raw emotions are what reveal the true character of a person. And as we were mentioning right before we started the episode, in my life I quickly realized that the argument that convinces the most people both in your personal and professional life is the truth and you just gave me your truth and not only to me but to almost 700 ,000 other people which I very much appreciate that because it's very courageous and it's not easy I'm going to ask you one final question If you had to compress all your knowledge into one essential piece of advice that we must implement in our daily lives, what would it be?

1:30:19Read aloud, guys. Start, pick up text, read aloud. Read aloud and stop avoiding micro-conversations. Stop going into places and using the self-checkout. because what you're doing is you're avoiding micro conversations, which are the basis and foundations of being a good public speaker. If you cannot speak to a person serving you and ask them, how's your day doing? Yes, I'd like this. Yes, I would like a bag. Thank you very much. Could you open it for me, please? I'll have that first. If you cannot participate in micro conversations, then public speaking or speaking at a greater level is going to be so much more difficult.

1:31:02So read, read aloud, and stop avoiding micro-conversations. Have brilliant mini-conversations with people you've never met before. Thank you, Benny. Thank you for accepting to come to the show this morning, for sharing your knowledge, your experience, and for opening a small window into your personal life. I really love learning from professionals that can teach us how to become a better version of ourselves. Unfortunately, I believe that our education system doesn't teach us everything that we need in order to be well-equipped to live a happy life. For example, they teach us about geography, even in Spain.

1:31:47Unfortunately, they taught us how many rivers and how many different mountains are there in my country. And I'm pretty sure that they've done the same in other countries. And I find that absolutely useless, especially when we compare it to things like this speaking. What's the difference between talking and speaking? So I thank you for the work that you do and for being one of the leading voices in this field. And we're going to leave in the description of this episode for anyone that is curious about this topic and wants to learn more or perhaps even work with Vinny, the website to his link. He's a great professional.

1:32:21I worked with him for over a year and I cannot recommend you and your company in your services enough because it does help in every aspect of your life. We are constantly talking but we should be constantly speaking. Thank you very much for your time, Alberto. Thank you very much for the opportunity. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Vinny.