The Art Entrepreneur: Why 99% of Artists Fail

0:02I like the idea that art doesn't have to have a single definition. I evolve in different divisions every day. I am part of the market value because my talents have to have a market value and I'm shaping their reputation. But I'm also, I love seeing people having art as a hobby. I love seeing people encountering different types of art. I don't want to have a hierarchy. Maureen Tanguy is a French art entrepreneur and author who is the founder and CEO of MT Art Agency, an agency for up-and-coming artists, helping them pay for studios, showcase their work through public art installations and find buyers.

0:35MT Art reviews 200 portfolios every month in order to find the most innovative young talent. The company is currently worth over 35 million pounds. Something that influenced the business I created, which is I got exposed to all the top talent agencies in LA, all worth 7 to 8 billion each. And I felt that model doesn't exist. There's no talent agency in the art world currently. This makes total sense. I would widen the revenue streams of our sector. most of what you're looking at is going to shape you. That's the same. However, content, whether it's food or not food, your inputting is going to shape you.

1:12It's going to make you someone, right? Who surrounds you is also making you someone. So I look at how visuals make you someone. I am a firm believer that we all are battling our own wars. We all have our problems. And I want to go into deeper levels with you. of understanding you. What has been the biggest problem you faced?

1:52Marin, you're the founder of the art agency, which is called MT Art. one of the first things that appear when you google your name is that your company right now is worth 35 million pounds and that's probably the main thing that remains in your head but i'm a firm believer that the internet unfortunately never gives you the full truth yeah the entire truth so i would like to hear it from you who are you and what is it that you do yes um well i like that you're giving me that opportunity. I'm Maureen Tongi. So I founded the first talent agency in the art world 10 years ago. I come from a tiny island off the west coast of France.

2:35My two parents are primary teacher. My dad is retired. My mom is still active. I don't know how she does it because she has 30 kids at 67, which is incredible. And then I grew up for 17 years with literally nothing. It's like birds more than people. You're five or seven years at school. It's like nothingness of nothingness. Not nothing in terms of materiality, just nothing else in terms of activity. And I'm almost coming to a stage in my life where I would have spent the exact opposite of my life right in the midst of everything after 17 years of absolute tranquility. But I had a great interest in the visual world we live in.

3:12What I call the visual world is our visual environment when we walk down the streets, when we interact visually, like whether it's digitally, but also when we walk into a space, I just was very sensitive visually. and I just wanted a job that could ultimately make people more inspired on a daily basis through what they encounter and whether that's through public art they will see on their streets whether they could look at things digitally that are more inspiring artistically whether they could be in their homes and certainly artistically also they could be more inspired it just I wanted to transform that visually and that was quite strong and I think maybe coming from a beautiful island, although there's no art, there's a sense that you are, you have this aesthetic beauty.

3:58It's absolutely beautiful everywhere you walk around. And I felt so fortunate to have this. And I found my whole life dedicated to how do you do this, but using art to make it an inspiring visual environment. So that's very much the mission of the business. 35 million matters because, and actually now it's more because we just closed the fundraise, is because the arts are never valued. And I'm actually someone that constantly advocates for the creative sector to be more valued. We in the UK, this is a number two most powerful sector, the creative sector. But you're always dismissed. You know, if you do something in the arts, it's pretty, it's superficial, it's not a real business.

4:36So for me to kind of show that actually there is economical value was really important. I did my first academy paper with Warwick University in 2018 on valuing public art. And I'm a big believer in talking about this is the economical value that my sector brings because most people always dismiss it. So ironically, while this may sound brash and also probably quite frontal to advocate the value or your worth, it is a reminder that actually the creative sector has a worth. And that's something that I'm very attached to. Right. I picked up on something that you said which is that in your hometown, in the island that you grew up with there wasn't art so what is art then?

5:22Well I think that's the straight away biggest question your second question I think like this is why I'm quite attached to the word visual because I think we are a talent agency representing the top artists that's what I do professionally But again, for me, art is just one in the many ways in which you can be happy visually. Nature can be something else where you can be really happy. So on a definition of the arts, if you speak at an art market level, then that will be people who have a reputation, who have a market value, who are esteemed, whether through museums or curators or institutions. if you speak at a more generic level it's something that you're inspired by which goes back to me thinking how can we get people really inspired and I think my business has shown that suddenly you can have way wider audiences and just see how world will get success to how inspiring artists and art is um but I think also it can be something that's a hobby it can be something that you kind of come across as part of you every day I'd like to I like the idea that art doesn't have to have a single definition.

6:25I evolve in different definitions every day. I am part of the market value because my talents have to have a market value and I'm shaping the reputation. But I'm also, I love seeing people having art as a hobby. I love seeing people encountering different types of arts. I don't want to have a hierarchy. I like to, again, assess it depending on, are you talking about the art world value of the arts? Well, we're talking again about the enjoyment that the arts can give you or the experience of the visual world that you live can give you. It's different, so it doesn't need to be limited. I've interviewed a few artists with a more traditional definition of what art is, singers, actors, painters.

7:07And I've seen a common denominator across all of them, which is that there was a catalyst moment in their childhood that changed the way that they see life. And they started seeing life from that moment onwards through the lens of art. So everything could be perceived as a form of art for them. Did you have a moment that triggered this change in your life? So I don't think it's a moment. I feel like I was quite romantic. I remember reading a lot about 19th century books and poets and literature and philosophers, and they were always surrounded by artists. And those people were shaping society.

7:47It sounds really silly because I didn't, I'm not I didn't think of myself as a romantic character but I wanted to be with people who were going to shape society I wanted to understand I had loads of questions for them I wanted to be in the midst of that shaping and it seemed that artists at least in the 19th century when a lot of changes were occurring in society had a key role at that table um that's my first encounter with artists because you have to think that because there was no art where I came from it was books first it was it was reading about them more than it was looking at what they were doing but I'm sure you have this where it's a joy of being at a table where there's such an immense flow of ideas the way that they look at the world is constantly challenging yours like I've always said my job gives me actually no prejudice because you just walk at a table and someone completely changed your opinion on the topic or makes you see something that you hadn't seen so it's a luxury of looking at the world on a constant basis in a different way and through different eyes And I think that's just felt from the books I was reading, something I wanted to have.

8:51And I think I got attracted to my world and the cultural world for that reason. And to this day, and I think with the amount, obviously we became a global company. So with the amount of projects that we did, I mean, we were behind the first gay and feminist festival in Saudi. Like we did a lot of projects where it's, you cannot come at it with prejudice. You just can't. But that's my favorites because it just, I get a job that I cannot turn up to that situation expecting that for that situation to be you have to respond in a way that is human that has empathy that is hopefully artistically relevant and I think great artists have that and and that is a luxury a great quality of life and what about your childhood in particular because a friend of mine is an actor And I now know his family incredibly well.

9:39And they are also artists. And he grew up with this understanding, knowledge, and appreciation of art that I didn't. So I would assume that because he was exposed to this type of knowledge and appreciation, then he would be more prone to follow an artistic career path. In your house, when you were watching a movie or reading a book, or perhaps talking about art in general, was this something important at home or was isolated to you? I came out of a contrast of a background. I met two parents. It was a really unhappy house. And not to kind of, you know, first my dad unfortunately was really violent, and not just to me, to my mum as well.

10:29But I feel also, I'm sure I don't say, I think it just, you get so used to it. But I think on the back of this, my mom was sadly quite affected by this for obvious reason. She was very depressed by it. So there was no art on the wall. It was very white. And she went into cleaning, which happens a lot when you go into a maniac disorder because you're very unhappy, which meant that we couldn't have anything on the surface. Like surfaces, everything had to be cleaned. Everything had to be perfect. She's now out of it. She's with a lovely guy. and she's gone out of that phase. But what he meant is that the house felt lifeless, which is interesting.

11:10If you come to my house, it's a total opposite. There's art up everywhere. There's kids running around. There's always friends in and out. There's artists. There's books. There's plants. It's like it would be impossible to imagine a surface being easy to clean because there's just so much stuff everywhere. So I think I probably reacted to it because that represented a lack of life and I went into a job that is very lively. You have everything. You have cultural diversity, emotions, you know, different ways to look at the world. It's colorful. It's like it's so it's probably a huge response. But that was only one part of my background, because on the other side, I had two loving grandparents who raised me actively.

11:51And I think less about the exposure to the arts. So my two grandparents were very old. My mom was a sixth one. So when they came to raise me, realistically, they were not going to put that many rules in place because they were getting to an age where they were past 80. And so they took me away with them traveling. If I didn't want to go to school, I was not going to school. I will have like delicious fish being cooked for my granny. Like it just, it was really not rule based. But what it did mean is that I have people telling me about their story when they did the war, when I had, I was authorized to be very courier.

12:24I was also given loads of confidence, maybe made feel very special. You know, I was the only grand kid that they had taken on that way. So it's, I always say that it's a weird thing because there's a part of me that therefore was quite broken next to a part of me that was really confident. And then those two coincide and probably was really helpful to be an entrepreneur because you have to constantly question. So you can never be too confident or too arrogant. but that's why I'm saying it's a double it's a double edge because I was being told I was very special and I was also being boosted in terms of my confidence on the other side and I think what that gave me is a sense that again I could do as much as I wanted because of that lack of rules and I also am a big believer I think we always talk about we talk about the men impact the masculine impact but I think my mum had wanted me to do all the things she couldn't do And I see that now having kids that sometimes, you know, it's not your turn because it's not going to be possible, but you almost hope for your kid to have it better.

13:28And I think I walk into the steps now, I walked into the life, which my mom probably would have wanted to do. Like I dance, I do ballet, I read, I have a relationship that's supportive. I've been able to do what I love job wise. Maybe in a very different relationship, my mom would have actually done more of that. So you get to an age where you actually realize that even the person that was less able to give you as much really hoped for you to not have what they had, which still made you to a degree. So I feel it's out of a lot of that female influence that I became who I was. The reason why I'm asking you this is because I am a firm believer that we are a consequence of the experiences that we live through our journey, in particular, our childhood.

14:14I would say even more so than our genetics. Right now, you are an entrepreneur, but you are an entrepreneur that is operating within the art industry. So I firmly believe that there were some very specific moments in your life, like the ones that you were sharing, the relationship between your parents, how also your grandparents allowed you to have this sense of freedom, of choice, of being whoever you want to be in life, that allowed you on one hand to become an entrepreneur, because you need to feel like you're capable. and if you live perhaps in an environment where you're not told that you're capable, you're not going to venture into something on your own.

14:48But also on the other hand, with the freedom of choosing whatever it is, because sometimes you can be in an environment that you are being empowered, but you're empowered to do one particular thing. Like I want you to be a lawyer and I'm going to empower you. Like there is no tomorrow to be the best lawyer, but your only definition of professional success might be to be a lawyer. In this case, I have the feeling that you've had a very broad spectrum of freedom of the different things that you can like and then pursue. And you know something that I have a great friendship with Africa Brooke, who wrote The Third Perspective, who believes that there's no black and white, there's no binary thinking.

15:25But what I was saying is I gave the one side of my dad being obviously violent, but there's also a side where he wanted a boy, so he put me in all the boy sports. But while that maybe thing, initially you might think that would go against me. I was not nurtured as a woman in a sense that like a girl that just does girl stuff, you know, I was put into rugby and basketball and all of this. And, and so I am very direct in business. I'm quite competitive. Like I'm very comfortable with a level of, um, of conflict, you know, which happens a lot of the sports. Right. so there's actually no single person just has darkness or greyness which I love when Africa said that but I think in my case by accident he may be more feminist by this because then I didn't have a lot of the behaviours that I think sometimes hold women back into leadership because I was put into lots of masculine set-ups through that sport and I still do a lot of sports and I still find that it's amazing for my emotional regulation amazing to build a team in my business and have that sense of leadership to tackle difficult and uncomfortable conversations this is the best as well so there's there's been positive to um through his side too do you resent your father no no i i feel especially from a rural background that you know you just sometimes you just really get in the wrong relationship and and i feel that you have kids because that's the right thing to do, but you haven't had time to assess how you want to be as a parent.

17:03You also didn't have the exposure to what that potentially means. So you reproduce mechanism. So no, you know, he's a good granddad now, like we've had, obviously, you know, we're many years later. And I do believe in forgiveness, but I just feel like, you know, my parents didn't have that much exposure or support. Like think about it today now, if both of us had a parental advice, I could just ring so many people. Then suddenly someone would be like, you know what, let me just send you someone to babysit your kids for a few hours. And then you spend a bit of time with your husband and you have a bit of respect and you'll be okay.

17:38Like I have an insane support system, which means I don't snap at my kids and I don't have any of that. But again, the luxuries I have means I'm a better parent for it. So I can't judge because those are very different financial situations and setups than the ones that I have today. I also think it's very positive. And I think that's something that is very important for anyone to be happy, but definitely very important for an entrepreneur to succeed because that prevents you from quitting. In this situation, there could be two sides to the same coin and you choose to see one side, the positive side, the glass half full.

18:14Perhaps someone else in the same situation might have felt that, well, my father wanted to have a boy. And because he wanted to have a boy, I got exposed to these more masculine aspects of life and perhaps I'm not very in touch or aligned with my feminine part in your case was the opposite you're like okay you're exposing me to this but look this is making me feel more attached to that so instead of focusing on the a that he's basically forcing you to be you're focusing on the consequence the natural consequence which is the positive side that right now you embrace in your life which is becoming an entrepreneur in the arts industry you also also said once that you've been brought up in a socialist environment now we live in the uk but i'm from spain now this word socialist socialism can mean various different things according to the culture yes what do you mean yes i think socialism in france is is first of us a party and the socialist party and it believes in equality and opportunity access to chances equal access to chances um the fact that we should be more equal in terms of access to health care um the arts like education but also our place as citizens um i was raised that way because i think traditionally teachers in france belong to the socialist party now we all know it's changing because macron came into power there's less of that kind of dynamic between two parties but traditionally that is the way your teachers used to be socialist um i always say because we are b corp we were the first b corp of our sector like it's it's again something you know i obviously run a company that is a private company so as you can imagine i am active in business i think i probably have more the more liberal approach of the uk towards this now where i kept the value system, but I believe in the business execution of it.

20:16But I feel I would never have been a B Corp, but never have cared about a lot of things if it wasn't for my socialist upbringing. I think what it leaves you with is that you have a deep duty and responsibility to make sure that people have enough, as many chances as you, as many opportunities as you. Like I mentioned, one thing that filled me with joy is yes, we are a fast growing company. We've been lucky to be doing well. But it's also that many people can walk past the public art projects that we are doing, like the one currently in King's Cross, right in the center of Grenier Square in London, and enjoy it for free.

20:51I feel that is what's left me with those values of socialism is that I just want someone to enjoy what we are doing and the values of what we're doing for free alongside us building a great business, which I think is a B Corp by definition. But I think it's also, So there's a moral to it. And I think between my granny and between that socialist upbringing, I think morality really matters to me. It's something that I question a lot on, is that a moral decision? Is that a fair decision? It's interesting because I see it now with my elders where we have a lot of those conversations and I'm glad to be asking those questions.

21:28I still on a daily basis will question what we are doing, what kind of projects we take on upon this lens. that goes upon to legacy. Yes, building a great business is important, but I also want to make sure I'm building something that I'm really proud of at every step of it. And I feel those values help you adding a new lens to it. I don't know if you've heard this before, but I've heard this quite a few times now, which is that when you think about artists, you think about socialist people. Why is that? So I think I would challenge that slightly, but I understand why. I think, again, the arts by definition is when you believe in the arts, I think you're probably driven to want to make the world a better place.

22:19By this, you're probably attracting to values around equality, around, again, access to opportunities, around making people from all backgrounds enjoying it. But you also, like, cultural identities don't really, it's not like they don't matter. But I think if I think of the number of nationalities in my team and artists, like, it really isn't a thing. Like, you embrace all different types of cultural backgrounds because you are in a cultural space again. So I think for all those reasons, you're probably leaning slightly left in terms of your value, which is probably a labor-ish way to see the world.

22:53because I think a lot of the values will be traditionally more towards Labour than towards Conservative, I feel, as an artist. Now, I would say that most people at the head of the art world are definitely more Conservative than they are Labour in terms of the market, right? So it's slightly different in terms of people who practice versus the market. But the market is made out of many people who are very upper class and more driven towards a Conservative party. So I would balance it, but I could see how an artist would lean in more left because of that, because of the practice that they do every day.

23:30Let's talk about entrepreneurship. I believe that there is a moment in every entrepreneur's life that triggers a decision to open a business. What triggered you to start MTR? So it was actually my second business. so at 21 I was managing the gallery of civilized ideas we discovered Banksy I was the youngest gallery manager in Europe and it was quite funny because it's just street street artists and a very boyish culture actually drugs too because that was the time it would not be allowed anymore I did not consume anything but as you know already because we know each other I'm quite granny-like so it was not my thing anyway but I feel it was a very it was a very ahead culture in thinking that artists and street artists could very much shape the conversations that you have on a daily basis and be part of the everyday and the hand street art.

24:30So that was my first job. I was then spotted by this investor who came to recruit me. He was based in LA. He thought I was very young. I was speaking about art in a very different way. I was already, maybe that's associated with values, but I was quite outspoken about How do we change the structure of the art world to be widening audiences and revenue streams? And how do we build up artists differently? And he said, why don't we open your gallery in Los Angeles? I was 23, went from London to LA. I had absolutely nothing to lose. Didn't dream of LA before. Landed to leave in Hollywood Hills. For anyone who doesn't know, it's like the Bird Street.

25:05It's very beautiful. You have those beautiful views. I was given a tennis court and this tiny little house with it. And I was, the gallery was on Meros Avenue. Wait, sorry, wait, parentheses. You were 23. I was 23. An investor spots you. You were back then living in London. And then he says, look, I'm going to fund your business. I'm going to open up a gallery for you in LA. Yes. And I'm also going to give you a house that has a tennis court. So I had an E1 visa, which means that like I earned 50-50 with him. So you build the company in the US and then they put the funding in. That's the way the E1 visa works.

25:41His house was much bigger. It had a tiny house, but that was part of his whole complex, which included a tennis court and a swimming pool. Didn't it make you feel uncomfortable that, I would assume, an older man wanted for you to move next to his house? The entire LA situation was incredibly uncomfortable. I think there's no better way to describe it. I'm 23. I have signed a contract on an investment, but I have forgotten to negotiate a salary for myself, which obviously I'm not coming from anywhere else. So it's going to be very tricky because you can imagine this is a very glamorous life, but there's obviously expenses.

26:16So I was spent, you know, we opened up with Demi Moore and loads of celebrities. Like it was, first of all, outside of my confidence, I was told to pose in a certain way, to be a certain way, which is very different to who I was as well. This investor was telling you this? Not just this investor, the LA scene. I don't want to just put it on staff. I think it was like across the board, this is what LA would tell you. and you know like I think again I was mixed between precarity financial precarity where you have nothing because you're starting something but you look very glamorous which is the worst of both worlds.

26:52Is it a fake until you make it? Very American and on top of this exactly to what your point is so Steph has never tried anything with me but on top of this you are taken out by a lot of older men which was a lot of my early 20s. So you have to be really careful because you don't want to bruise egos. We also don't want to get ultimately with any form of sexual harassment. My technique at the time was to say that I always had dinner. I never had a dinner, but I could escape at like 7.30pm. So actually, right until I met my husband, because he spotted that this was a lie, I told him I had a dinner.

27:28He was like, I don't think you have a dinner. And that's actually the first ever date that I had with my husband because he uncovered that I never actually had dinners late at night. But I just, I had many techniques to make sure that like I was safe, that I was home early. Do you think this is something that happened to you because you were in that environment in LA or generally women in business, they should be careful for these things? Well, I think what was difficult is like, even with my first job and gallery, like you would go for drinks with your clients to close a deal, right? And one of the top salesperson at the time, James was doing that, and Simon was doing this too.

28:06So it's much harder, you know, very noisy pub, most of you at the time although it's changing, because as we know that with the wealth transfer that's happening, there's a lot of amazing women high networks on the rise. And that's been very exciting, because my business has many of them who connects with us. But up to that point, really, your male high networks was was your key client when it comes to art sales. The way that person would work is that he would finish work because it was not going to take a 2 p.m. That person was making money, which is where they were working, unless they had inherited.

28:41But often they are busy people who are ultimately making money, right? And so it's a 6, 7 p.m. drink. You're 19 or you are 23. like you have a huge different power dynamics and age gap usually. So I think, yes, I was full of tricks. I think what helped me is, and we had that conversation with Ossai in the podcast, is like I was never a big drinker. I was not into it anyway. So I had an awareness and a sense of my environment. And then I had all those little tricks, which meant that I was luckily never been in a position that ultimately will be really compromising. But yes, you have loads of different tricks.

29:19I think in this situation, yes, it was very American where Seth would just enter my house at 6 a.m. and just start talking about all the stuff we had to do. It was a really intense period of my life where I was exposed to Michael Lovitz, who was a billionaire, and many billionaires who tried to also mentor me. It was a world of extreme because on the one hand, you are meeting people who are incredibly smart and incredibly powerful. On the other hand, you're still very vulnerable yourself and trying to figure out the two. plus you're being imposed a lot of codes that are not yours and you're trying to figure out your understanding of them.

29:54So yes, it shapes. As a 23-year-old, I definitely wouldn't call it a comfortable time of my life but I think again, something that influenced the business I created which is I got exposed to all the top talent agencies in LA like OCA, UTA, WME, all worth 7 to 8 billion each and I felt that model doesn't exist. There's no talent agency in the art world currently this makes total sense i would widen the revenue streams of our sector not just sell art sell b2b project entertainment deal digital deal public art deal brand partnership deals and suddenly just open up the many ways in which visual artists can work with large corporates but also open up the audiences and it was a nice time to do it and that's the reason i started the business but yes it was on the back of an intense first business experience um but i mean you're going to say i'm very positive.

30:46I mean, my best friend was actually in and out living with me at the time. And she would tell you probably a different story. I think my entourage, they were on that podcast to be like, this was hard. But I think for me, like I would never have had the idea if it wasn't for all that exposure. And I'm now super proud of the business I've built, you know? I mean, definitely the experience of you going to LA and meeting all these people and starting your first business at such a young age and be given these opportunities has impacted your journey but what exactly happened from you moving from business a to business b so you're in la someone is funding your gallery yeah but then you're back in london and you're building a new business you identified a gap in the market yeah but how did you close one business to start the other or what was the moment that made you think it was a series of things yeah it was a series of things where one the economics of the guy model doesn't work so there's now don't work there's a lot of literature now on it.

31:47But you 90 % of galleries don't make money. It's a lifestyle and a luxury social status. 90 % of galleries don't make money. It's basically the top ones that make money. And they do it not even through working with contemporary artists, but through artists who actually are dead. So it would be safe to say that if I walk around London, that 90 % of those. Yeah. It's social status. It's a bit like a Nassau and Martin would took like 100 plus years to like make money, right? Those are like status businesses, where you acquire them because it gives you a status, how many wives, how many offices will be part of it, or inherited wealth will be part of it, right?

32:26It's a status business. The cultural world is really important. When you've got loads of wealth, you also want to have credibility culturally. So that's your next step to kind of acquire it. I was starting to see that, that actually, economically, it was not making sense. That was my first kind of exposure to it. Yes, it looked great. And we had a great gallery, but the numbers did not add up. The second thing is, back to the codes that was being imposed, I knew and probably that I haven't, I'm very lucky that I have a good body awareness. But physically, I could sense I didn't know how long I could, I could leave on the codes that were not mine in terms of behaviors, in terms of pretending those behaviors, whether it's poses or whether it's, it's like, I just, I don't know.

33:13I could sense I was not going to last very long because it just, it's not the way my body is built. Ultimately, at some point I need to be myself, you know? So, and I don't strive very well if, if trying to be conscribed on a certain coast are not mine. The second thing is I generally believe in a gap and I think there was nothing to lose because I was 25 then. And, you know, I had literally, if it failed, it failed. Like that was the way I was looking at it. I was not in a relationship. Like there was nothing that was really holding me back to be completely taking a huge risk and attempting it.

33:48But that's also the only mistake that therefore I really regret is that I did not believe it would become a company for a while. So I did put my name on the door. If I had understood that it would become a company much faster than it did, which I'm obviously very excited about, then I will have come up with a different name. That is my only regret from this, is that I felt it's going to take years and I'm going to basically be an advisor consultant until it works out. But actually the company started very quickly and it worked very quickly. So you don't like the culture in LA. You identify that the gallery is not making money generally because most galleries don't make money.

34:27And then you decide to start a new business and then you move to London. So you have this idea because you see that there is a gap in the market in order for artists to have various different revenue streams. Now, that's the idea. How do you bring this idea into reality? Yeah, I think I was still scared to go completely on my own to start with. So actually, initially there was Indyat Rose James who owns Soho Estate and William Pelham, who were starting something in London, which was a small gallery. And you met these people also in LA? No, I met them in London. So at that point I had come back.

35:03And I think there was a fear, can I just do it on my own? Or do I need still someone who puts the wealth in? Because again, my sector is all about people who are incredibly wealthy, who start businesses. And it felt like the scariest, the most difficult thing here seems capital. How am I going to get capital? But very quickly, when I started something with them, I realized the problem is that if capital is given to you, not on your terms, it will always become something very different. And again, with full respect to Steph, he was more interested in having a glamorous party gallery than it was about building the reputation of the artist and really building them up and opening their revenue streams and audiences.

35:44So it felt that the problem with partnering with capital is I was always going to compromise what I was actually trying to build. So I felt I have to go on, which was the scariest part with no capital. So I literally went on my bicycle and convinced artists one by one studio per studio. And so I had to make sales and there was no office. There was nothing. I will bring collectors to the studios. They will start buying. Then I started to like arrange a few public art projects that were small, but it was starting to work out until actually my track record financially was looking good and the growth was looking good.

36:21So I was able to fundraise like a year in. So So I think that was the fear is that we are in a world where there's no VC for the art world. There's very few investors that exist for the art world. You are still in a world where you have to have that inherited wealth capital. And I felt that was probably my biggest fear is that how am I going to create that? But actually, it worked out that I was able to fundraise because I was profitable. The gross numbers were looking good. The gross margins were looking good. And very quickly, I was able to build a business that was very viable. So, all right, let me see if I got it right.

36:51So the mission of your company in the very beginning, even if it was a one person company, was to help, first of all, sign artists and then help them sell their pieces. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. Bigger. Through various channels, perhaps. So individual collectors or events. Change a gallery model away from just selling their artworks to suddenly do much more, meaning put their projects on the streets, literally through public art projects, do digital collaborations because there was also a rise of tech companies that were doing more and more of that, and retail activations that were digital. Brand partnerships, that was the beginning of that too.

37:30Entertainment deals, so like recently we did all the art for Netflix before seeing that actually they were going to need a lot of art. So widening the opportunities an artist will get on the top of hopefully giving them more support as we represent them. That was the mission. Right. So how were you able to convince artists to do this? Because I'm a firm believer that going from zero to one is harder than one to 100. If I'm an artist and you come with your bike and you sell me this entire dream, the dream looks beautiful. But how are you going to take me there? frankly I think you have to ask them because I'm still friends and some like quite a few of them actually still in our company so you have to ask that question because I don't know myself like if I look at David Servant-Schrebert who is the one whose art was in Emily in Paris a few months ago like he he saw me in boxes you know I also don't think I was making much sense like I was I had this enormous big vision but I had never really scaled anything nor I have hadn't taken an idea that was disruptive, you know?

38:28So it was very, the answer is, I don't know, but clearly I must have been able to be convincing enough because I had great artists. Like I actually had people that to this day were very good artists. I didn't have to just see emerging artists, but people who really trust me. Maybe it is the amount of energy. I think the good thing with 2in25 is that I was working around the clock. I was, I had tons of energy and, and I was probably very convinced what I was saying, which I was. I really felt that model made sense and didn't exist and should exist. But I think that's probably a question for them.

39:02I don't know. They're still around, so you can ask them. A lot of people that I talk to when we speak about entrepreneurship, one of the first things that they say is you need to analyze very well, make a lot of research, tons of research on whatever business you want to implement. I'm a firm believer that that is for sure something that you need to do. But depending on how detailed that research is, it can really prevent you from starting. And I think there is something beautiful and powerful in being young and naive, which makes you start, which I think is very important. Well, I always say there's different stages.

39:38I now invest in companies. So I've invested recently in Exactly AI, which is the first AI generator that protects the rights of the artist. So I've started being on the other side too. as my company is becoming more established too. But I would say the way I address building a business at 25 is very different to 35 years old. I will do research today. I will go out and potentially meet a few partners I could co-found the business with. I will go about it completely differently. But every age has their resources. The way I view it is that I feel like you have to almost leverage what your age is bringing you.

40:13What your age is bringing you at 25 is that absolute binary way to see the world that it would only be this or nothing and the energy to carry it, which is a resource. You have no wisdom, you have no experience, and you have no research capacities in comparison of a 35-year-old. Today, that is not my biggest strength. My biggest strength is not how much energy I can give. My biggest strength is actually I have the network, I have the understanding of the sector, I have capacities to reach the people I can do it with. So I think it's just more to adapt upon the stage you're in. But at 25, that is your biggest asset, is that you will be so stubborn until you see the end of the idea.

40:52How does the company make money? So the art world, which actually had a very difficult year, but the art world traditionally only does B2C, meaning just selling artworks to people. 70 % of our revenue is B2B, which is what I mentioned earlier. Public arts, brand partnerships, digital partnerships, entertainment deals. So we've opened up. Can you give me examples of those? Yeah, so many. So for instance, if you think of the Netflix documentary, like this were works that were placed for Netflix, and Netflix is paying to have the works on display of David, Servo Schreber. You also have, in the case of a brand partnership, Vogue Kickoff, the Freeze week, which was a top London Art Week, here with a full partnership with our artist, Stefania Terrada, as an example.

41:42Kerastase did a whole partnership with our artist Sarah Shaquille. And your agency is responsible for landing those deals. Yeah. So public art-wise, as you walk around your streets, there's captures you see up. That will again be a deal that you strike with a real estate developer or a bed or a console. So et cetera, et cetera, in terms of like how you do B2B. But I feel the art world has not really expanded onto B2B Because again, their structure is more the building of relationships that are very private in a very silo way. As you know yourself through the business that you have, building B2B businesses is very different than B2C.

42:21And I think our strength is that we've been able to build that. We've been able to import people from outside of the sector to build that department. We've also been able to therefore open up audiences for the sector through this. Because like when we put sculptures in St. James's Lake in September, who gets to see those sculptures? is actually more than who will enter the V &A museum. You know, like your food fold and your press and your social media is so much larger. So you just widen who gets to see the artists, who gets to support them, who gets to be inspired by them. So that's how we make money is through those new revenue streams.

42:53It's also back to my value, something that I found really happy because it's a happy place for me because it's a place that is widening the sector to more people, which is something that I really believe in. And your agency, I'm assuming, gets a percentage, a commission from all of these deals. Yeah. How do you select which artists to sign? So we have a selection committee. You go through, again, their style, their technique, the strengths of their concept, the potential that the person has, like how much you see that they have delivered, not delivered project-wise. We have emerging, make-carrier and established artists now.

43:28So you will address a potential of someone established very differently than someone that's emerging in a sense that like you'll be thinking they are more established in that side of the sector, but actually that side is less known. Or those revenue streams are very established. They're selling really well to museum or collectors, but they're doing that less. So I think with someone established, you'll be more looking to diversify what they're doing and to threaten what they're doing more than someone emerging. But you look, I think it's about potential. What I would say is, and I think back to your question on talent, is that, you know, you do know when someone is like about to be incredible.

44:06Like I think my really meaningful story this year is the artist Raven D. Clark, where we got her 21, she's now 27, she was on the Forbes this year. And she closed over 2 million of a deal. It's a deal that was 2.2 million pounds and is the first sculpture park ever dedicated to slavery in the US. She's working class. Like the idea of her getting to that level of deals is where I've set up the business. It's like, she got a mortgage out of it. She's able to build a studio practice out of it. She got the Forbes out of it. That's specifically why I built that business because I just feel that person is going to be able to do so much better in that system and will be able to inspire so many people as a result of it.

44:54And how does this committee decide? because I have a similar analogy in my life right now. So I'm part of this venture capital that was recently opened between myself and other amazing entrepreneurs. And we have an investment board similar to your artist committee to selecting artists. In our case, we have different metrics and KPIs to identify whether a company should be invested in or not. And then, for example, one of them, is the founder's profile, I would imagine, would also be the artist's profile. But I find it very hard to be able to compel my other colleagues, the other entrepreneurs, to tell them that I just feel it's right and I feel like we should invest.

45:41So how does it work in your community? So is it by majority? Yes, I think there's definitely a voting system. There's a majority, but I think back to your gut feeling, it's happened to me recently with one of my team members, she really had a gut feeling. And I said, look, if you want to tag that on, And then obviously we'll mentor you as you do it because she's more junior. Do it. Like just back that person. Because back to Raven, the first, the artworks I saw when she was 21 was this feat in wax that were hanging from the ceiling. There was nothing that would say she'd become a huge success.

46:18But it just was meeting Raven. I just could sense that not only was she able, but she was just that personality that could just take on everything. So sometimes you just have to go for it. Because if you were looking at those wax feet, you'd probably be like, Marie, you're just losing the plot. This is not going to become a great artist. But you've got to go with that intuition. So I think we would support team members if they want to go bypass the committee and follow their gut instincts on this. So now in your experience, is there a proven path for an artist to become successful? So for example, if you want to become a successful doctor or a successful lawyer, let's say a lawyer, you need to go to law school.

46:59Perhaps if it's a law school with this reputation, you might be able to land a job in that particular firm and then become a partner. So there is a blueprint that you can follow that can define your success. Is there a similar blueprint for an artist? I think we went for lunch recently with my artist, David. I love what he said. What he said is about patience. I often say resilience, which will be my first, because I think resilience is really important. But actually patience and resilience makes sense. This is acknowledging that everyone is talented, right? You're coming at the bar where everyone is talented, and that's the reason you can make that statement.

47:38But I think patience and resilience will probably be the same applied for entrepreneurship. It's knowing that there are lows, there are highs, there's difficulties. And, you know, I think having worked together for nine years, there has been super highs, but there's also been like six to 10 months where I was worried. I was like, okay, this is less going in his favor. Like we've, we've gone through all of those motions. And I find entrepreneurs, the same thing. So I think I would say to anyone who is talented already, technically it is patience. Most people give up. And I understand why, because the average salary of an artist in the UK is incredibly low.

48:12It's a really hard thing to do, but therefore most people would not remain as long as you want them to remain. The ones that would remain plus will be talented plus have that resilience are likely to make it. How is art defined good or bad? Is it based on supply and demand? I think, again, there's so many different answers. There's the answers in terms of the market, which is what you describe, it's like ultimately supply and demand. there's also the answer in terms of the historical and cultural relevance which is tied to the markets because there's loads of people who are dealers or galleries who will be supporting museums to make sure the art is getting them but ultimately this is who the museums and curators decide but again i think now what i i see a lot of joy is is the gatekeepers have shifted now to also who we love as people.

49:09Meaning, if loads of people online or physically loves you, that now matters. It used to never matter. It used to not be possible. Like, your only way to be viewed was to exhibit it in a gallery and that was it. But actually, you're now in a time where also the amount of support that you get through your audiences, through your community, matters. And I think it also matters hopefully to make you last, because there are some people who actually advocate for you. So it's changing. and that goes back to probably a more democratic way to do things, which I like the balance between the gatekeepers and the audiences.

49:44I think it's good to be an expert and obviously I value expertise, but equally I think it's good to listen to everyone on the ground. Probably by now you can already tell that I'm not well-versed in art. But for someone like me that wants to learn, where do I start? Should I go to a museum? I think you should first open your eyes. I mean, we talk a lot about this. Obviously, that's what I just published. But you are looking at 10 ,000 images a day. So like you're visual. And actually, 65 % of us are visual learners. So you think you're not well-versed. But actually, the majority of us are more visual learners and verbal learners.

50:25So you have more than you think in terms of looking. And looking, it's really... Actually, my son made me laugh yesterday because we kept telling him to look at the road and then he was literally pointing at people who were not looking at the road as they were crossing. But I think it sounds silly, but just looking is the first step. How you look is then, because we're so lucky to live in cities where it's actually, there is street art or public art or art at every corner. This is where looking will get you quite far. Museums is a great step, but I can understand why it would be intimidating to kind of do that as a first step too, which is why I like the idea of just looking around and walking around.

51:04Digitally, it's the same. Like, start thinking, really, what is my visual consumption daily? And how much art do I ever get to see? And if the answer is, like, none, is there a way to increase it? Is there a way that you can just follow a couple of Instagram accounts, artistics, or a YouTube channel that is more artistic and see how you warm up to it? There might be no exposure to it whatsoever. But I can start paying attention to those things in the streets or digitally perhaps following a few artists. But what should I be looking at? So is there a technique? Is there a color code? Is there something that I should start appreciating or just look at it and see how I feel?

51:43Yeah, I think this is why I talk about visual consumption because it is a visual diet for me. So it's like if you're telling me what kind of food do I like? And I'd be like, oh darling, you have to try tests and stuff until you know what food you like. My answer to that would be, it depends for what, right? Interesting. Does that answer also relate to art? I think this is where, I think, again, away from market values, which is where my business hat will be. If you want to invest in an artist, and of course, do look at the market value, the talent, make sure that increases in value. All of this is much more business, right?

52:15And that's more the art world. But outside of this, this is a visual diet that we're discussing. And what you want to make of your visual diet, I think the first step is to analyze what you're actually looking at first and then start saying, can I make Slack tweaks? Does that make me happy? Like, maybe I don't like this thing. Maybe I don't like... Once you're more into it, the next step is, are there places you can be really uncomfortable? But that is really when you've got a degree of confidence and you've been exposed to a lot of art. So then I would look for something that you're uncomfortable to look at.

52:46And what about from an investment point of view? Because right now myself, my investment portfolio is based on a few things. So on one hand, obviously, investing into my business, stocks, different types of stocks. Some of them are portfolio, more safe. Some other are more risky. I invest a little bit of my money into gold, a little bit into real estate. And then lastly, I invest a little bit of my money into what I call very risky, but very enjoyable ventures like early stage companies. Now, if I were to add one more, it would be perhaps art. But the reason why I've never considered it is because I know nothing about it.

53:22Now, should someone like me, knowing nothing about art, do it? And if I were to do it, what would be the best way for me to do it? I think that's where it is about market values. So the way you will get updates on market values that auction houses, so they will list the pricing of an artist, that you'll be able to see this artist in 2023 did X. In 2024, even though there was a similar size painting, did substantially less or substantially more. Similar size in terms of like... Yes, obviously, like they are stronger works than others. But I think to get started is to look at like profiles of artists that you like and try to understand how they're doing in the market.

54:05Auction houses will give you... So all of the results of Christian Sotheby's or Philips or Bonhams, which are all auction houses, are public. So you can go and consult them. You can see the sale that just happened. This is a price that was reached. That's a nice way to educate yourself, just like stocks. Like what are the market values? After this, I think this is why it's important to start reading a bit or starting to get to know people within the sector, however way. But you kind of understand, okay, am I going to go to more risky emerging or am I going to go more established because it's less risky?

54:39You know, am I going to do fractional ownership or am I going to go fully own a piece? Like am I going unique? Am I going to go print? Like there's different ways in which you can do it too. I think, again, at 21, managing that gallery by the guy who discovered Banksy, I was lucky to acquire works early of people who financially now are very valuable. And again, that was a boys' network. So I saw that. I saw the opportunity of being an insider network. There will still be an insider knowledge that comes with an out-of-market value. But I think, again, start with the auction houses. Start looking at just, I like the three artists.

55:15Let's look at what they did over the past couple of years, what they did this year. how that fluctuates, what kind of work. You know, maybe some for one of them, drawings would be really strong, but actually certain type of work not as much or sculptures not as much. Like just start understanding what market values attached to which artists and which type of work. And just like wine, that perhaps, even if someone is not well-versed in wine, you might not go wrong if you choose this region and more or less this type of grape. And perhaps you don't need to know the label or you don't need to know the ear, but just with those two things, you're in safe hands.

55:53Is there comparable to art, like maybe modern versus classics or one is better than the other? Yeah, so ironically, given the level of prejudice and discriminations, women artists and artists from the African continent are completely outgrowing any of their white male counterparts in terms of results for the past couple of years. this is because they were drastically undervalued in the past but that like you know our women artists Stefania Terrada made four times like her initiate value at Christie's. This is an area that is growing in terms of interest. I'm sure you've read about again that wealth transfer that's happening with women like by 2050 like a lot of that wealth will have gone to female high net worth so there's also at large a different interest as going into female artists, but they are really good to invest in right now.

56:49Hi guys, just a quick one from me. We're very proud to partner with BornBound, an innovative sports apparel brand. And when I choose my workout gear, I look at three things. Number one, it has to look good because it helps me stay motivated. Number two, it needs to feel incredibly light, almost like I'm not wearing anything. And number three, it has to breathe and dry very fast. BornBound nails it at all of this. we've secured an amazing offer. Use the code that we're going to leave here below for you to get 30 % off Pornbound gear. I hope you take advantage of it and you unlock the best version of yourself.

57:22That's it from me. Now we both need to get back to the episode. Thank you. Think about successful women in general. You are a successful woman. At least I consider you a successful woman. there is an old saying which goes behind every great man there is a great woman which i personally believe that that saying needs to be revisited because it's very old for so many reasons but i also believe that right now we live in a day and age in which some men can find it challenging to date someone to date in this case perhaps a woman that is more successful than them or at least very successful. What has been your experience in this arena?

58:10How did you filter or how did you navigate this problem? Yes, I, so first of all, I feel very fortunate because I'm still friends with my exes, don't talk to them every single day, but I do have very good relationship with them. And I've been with Will for now 10 years, my husband. I have felt - So since you were 25? Yeah. Actually, the company was funded a week after I met him. So it was really a big month for me. But I would say my experience of it all was very positive in terms of the partners I had. But he didn't meet you when you were already successful? No, but I still had a lot of press from LA.

58:49I definitely had a level of, I guess, communication exposure, PI exposure that would definitely be different. And I was already very ambitious. So like, you know, the time I dedicated to my work back then was substantially actually higher than today because you had to, it was the early days. So I think there was still that sense that he was going to live with me and the business I was building. I think there's as many ways I would go about it. So my girlfriend's always calls me the funny dating advice because I did not, I did, you know, it was a time when I was, when I was dating where there was a lot of conversation around games.

59:27that you have to do on dating. First of all, we've established 3LA. I'm not good at codes and I'm not good at gaming. So like I just established I was not going to be good at trying to pretend something when dating. So I kind of acknowledged that I had to ditch that. It was not working for me. But it also meant that I had quite a direct way to tackle dating. I was very honest. Like, you know, in the first conversations I had, well, there's my exes, well, as well on what I was trying to do, the challenges I was facing, the difficulties I had. Um, but also the important thing that I would want to have such as kids, like it's basically everything that you're told not to do.

1:00:09I probably did it in the first days. I talked about kids. I talked about the commitment level I wanted. I talked about all the different challenges and stress I was experiencing. So like the whole package of what you actually, if you follow Hollywood movies, you should not do. But it probably meant that the ones who ended up dating, first, they knew what they were getting into. I think that was my fear. My fear was that especially because I was already, I had a bit of publicity. I didn't want someone to be attracted ever to the glamour side. I wanted someone to, when they went on a date with me, that they got to see this is a real site.

1:00:44This is what's going on behind the facade. I'm trying to build this, it's stressful, there's loads of difficulties, and it's complicated. And if you ever touch what's pretty and glamorous, that's not going to last more than two seconds, because it's 2 % of my time, it's not what I'm trying to do. So I probably felt maybe a fear of rejection, but I was trying therefore to make sure that we're very aware of what was going behind the scenes. But as a result, therefore, you know, I had Will, who after my long monologue on all the things I wanted plus commitment, plus the stress I was undergoing. He was like, that sounds great.

1:01:21Like he said, he was building a business himself in tech, who's done really well. So there's two businesses on the other side and now two kids. And he was like, sounds great. I'm in. And I feel like I had also probably a type of man that dated me, but also were my friend. And probably that's the reason why those exes are still, there's a degree of friendship. Do you think it's easier or it made it easier for you both to have a healthier relationship because he was also in business. So he had his own company and his own thing going on. I think what helped specifically is Will had just failed his business, which is why he is now one of the top VCs in Europe in tech.

1:02:01He set up his old fund when I was setting up Empty Art. But he had just failed his tech company just before. And I think that makes him an incredible investor because he has empathy. The thing with Will is that he really, you know how certain VCs will tell you especially out of just graduating MBAs how you run your business and you're like darling like it's just a hell of a lot more complicated and I think what I love about my husband is that he has a hell of a lot of respect for you he would never look at his watch when he's looking at an entrepreneur who is pitching even if he knows this is not right for him but he has such a depth of degree of respect for an entrepreneur and I think that definitely helped me because Will gave me loads of empathy like he understood dude that this was complicated i think hopefully so they became one of the first vc to had to track their diversity and to be really active and to female leadership as well so hopefully i gave him i think he always says at least that i gave him exposure to the challenges that comes with ultimately leading a business as a woman i think especially because he invests in b2b tech businesses he will have seen very few women who were doing that so i think that hopefully helped him too but i think empathy is the first thing going back to I think the dating side I think I was very vulnerable from the start um because I felt I didn't have the choice I didn't want to pretend I didn't want to play games for me also being very entrepreneurial about it like I didn't want to waste my time with someone that was ultimately not right you know so I feel it was just a very probably like very um direct way it was straightforward way to see what relationship was so it had to be either this is someone that I really will spend time with and I have to be vulnerable with it or it's a waste of my time and right now when you're building a company you don't want to waste your time like you don't have any time and it's your main resource so but I feel empathy is key I think understanding is key I think Will has never made me feel that I was less important to him business wise and I think that also I hear a lot of that relationship wise where there's an insight always especially when you have kids where one job should matter over the other or one company should matter over the other.

1:04:06I've never had that sense. I've never had the sense that one company is more important than the other company. And also at times, ironically, when VCs were struggling in 2022, that's when we just had Ray's fund that was able to help him. So I think our companies have also been helpful to each other in different ways at different times. So I think that's been really helpful. But I've never had a guy that made me feel I was lessened. Business-wise, it was less important. I have enough space. If a kid is sick, the two come equal to who is going to cancel or who is easier to do it. But no, there's no assumption ever that this should be me.

1:04:42There's an assumption that this should be us as a team. And I am married to someone that is an amazing communicator. He is. And we all know that relationship is about communication. And realistically, he's so good at it. He's, he is, he would create conversations that are needed for the relationship and understand when communication is really important for the couple. And I think that also is really helpful. Probably some people listening to this might think that you were incredibly lucky. I was. I am. You don't take will because that is a key pillar of my system. But they might be looking at your story and think that, well, someone believed in her when she was so young and they've given her this amazing opportunity, fully funded in LA.

1:05:29then because she got a reputation she was able to come back to london and start her own business then she was also incredibly lucky that at such a young age she made a person that believed in her that was not competing with her and also in a way promoted you which i'm also sure you promoted him in life but also i am a firm believer that we all are battling our own wars we all have our problems and I want to go into deeper levels with you of understanding you. What has been the biggest problem you faced? Company-wise, life-wise, I think it's interesting if you had asked me... What comes into your mind when I ask you this question?

1:06:18Yeah, because it's interesting. I think it depends on what time you'll ask me this year. I feel, I mean, you know, we both talked about it, where unfortunately two years ago when we had just made it on the list that you just made it on, which is the Sourier Times versus growing list, we experienced like a horrible bullying, blackmailing campaign. So we had just ended the contract of three consultants in Paris. And as a result, they said that it's either we were paying them half a million pounds, which obviously we don't have that money to pay for blackmail, or they will start a horrendous hate campaign.

1:06:55I was planning for my second. Who sent you this? Was it a media outlet? So no, it was three consultants I was working with. Three consultants. And they were working for me from six months, two months, and three months total. So really short time of the business. They were meant to develop the French region first, and Paris specifically. They were underperforming, loads of behavior issue. We put term to their contract. obviously France and England handle these things very differently because as you know, like a consultant, especially under six months in the UK, it's a very natural thing to do. I think France is quite different in how they perceive these things.

1:07:31But it meant that ultimately they blackmail us in saying either you pay us and give us basically a half a million pounds. And then - For what? For literally we will say nothing and not do a hate campaign or we will do a hate campaign. because I didn't want us to end the consulting because we were paid really highly for doing very little. So obviously I didn't say yes to blackmailing. That was back like two years ago. But they were basically telling you, so they were underperforming and you don't want to work with them anymore. Yeah. But then what was your position? So you don't want to pay them the rest of the term of the contract and that's why they wanted this to happen?

1:08:12No, no, no. The contract could be ended on poor performances, especially behavior issue. So like there was, you know, you could, it's a consulting contract that literally could be ended like within the months. There was nothing, nothing we had done. We suggested to pay a few extra months to like nicely tie it up. Obviously the half a million pounds was a crazy amount. Plus the fact that they blackmailed us and did all the threats and everything. And previous behavior issue, we were like, we're done. So they came up with this number randomly. Well, we had just raised a million pounds. So I think they probably felt great.

1:08:40We would take half of it. And actually that was on the previous 35 million valuation because since we have fundraised for hire. And at the time, therefore, they went to an Instagram account called Balance Denoncio Agency where they just flooded it with literally hate. So I got about 100 death threats a day minimum. I also got, I hope you lose your kid. I hope you get raped. It was horrific. But why? Why would people write those things about you? Because they succeeded. And I think that is, you know, I think book-wise as well, really interesting because as you know, if you take right now, like two seconds of my voice, you can make me say different things.

1:09:19I think this is not what they did, but it's a degree of misinformation where you can make up the character of someone and then you can really make sure this is distasteful and someone can hate that person. Especially because I'm not as known in France. You know, I have worked mainly in Anglo-Saxon countries. Like Francis doesn't know me as much in terms of like, and I'm saying I'm worldwide known, but I'm better known in terms of the US and the UK where I've operated business wise. So you can make a character look really disdainful. Anna Delvey on Netflix had just been the bestseller and everyone was looking at this documentary.

1:09:53So they made a version of myself, which is very bizarre for yourself because you are cohabiting with someone that's not you, but bears your face, right? So they open this Instagram account and they start posting things that are completely false about you. Yeah, completely untrue. So I cheated apparently every day. The kids were not Will. I was like this horrible kind of person on a daily basis. Like just loads of behaviors that's just not yours. I think that it's completely absurd. and I think there's a comedy appeal that comes later which is starting to appear in my team but it's quite comical because it is generally and we see that with misinformation nowadays where you can really make up something and make it something that go viral but I think what it did very cleverly is that it reinforced every single bias you have about female leadership so you asked me about the relationship but you imagine that woman on stilettos walking on the guy who will be weak and therefore cheating and then be really tough with everyone.

1:10:52Like it was almost like an 80s version of what you think female leadership is, which is ironic because I'm not like this on a daily basis. But I think it clearly did well in terms of people not liking and showing a lot of those biases. This in itself was a horrible few months of hate, but only one paper wrote about it. So luckily, we're an Anglo-Saxon company. So no one was interested in pressways here. They asked for the facts. We gave the facts. I went to B Corp first thing and I said, please audit me. Talk to all my employees, ex-employees, audit the hell out of the company so that we can come back and say, look, we've done the audit.

1:11:32And realistically, we clean on that basis. So what I did is that therefore gave transparency to the team, had B Corp auditing us. we went out of our way to just be as transparent as we could. But why would B Corp be interested in allegations of you cheating or things like that? Unfortunately, because I have 70 % of the allegation on top of my personal character, that is called a bias. I mean, again, I'm not cheating, but even if I was, I don't really understand what this comes into the running of my company. But whether I was a nice girl or not, that's what it came down to. Because as a girl, you're meant to be nice and pleasing and sweet.

1:12:11So whether I was a nice girl or not was really way more to debate than whether I was running the company. What's ironic is the running of the company or its success was never questioned, but it was my character. And it was really a character assassination. And I feel that is where I see that as a gender bias, because I would see if I was a guy, it will be assessed upon how they run their company. And I agree. I mean, cheating, again, don't do it. But the point is, and I also generally admire people who do because I don't have that time, I think, with the kids and the business and everything. But I would say also like, it is irrelevant when you think about it.

1:12:45But that was way more fascinating people. Like I also was part of an advert for Chloe who had showcased amazing entrepreneurs. That was way more the obsession, whether I was in that advert for Chloe, whether I was running the business. It was very clear that like, it was my looks. It was everything in terms of the character way more than the business. That would have been bad enough if you had stopped here. but unfortunately only one paper picked up on it called Le Monde, which is one of the key papers in France. They were very clever because they didn't say, they researched it. They say the Instagram account said that, which means that legally they're not liable.

1:13:25They're just saying, which now loads of papers do, where they go, we have read on Instagram or this and that, that this has been said. So if you go through the article, it's not them saying it, it's the Instagram account saying it, which means they're fully protected. Then they heavily sponsored the posts. And I became that number two most well-read article of Le Monde that year above Putin declaring war. That actually is when, and that's why I'm saying, is it the worst thing that happened to me? Not anymore, because it became really interesting to me at that point. I was like, how can I be number two above Putin declaring war in Ukraine?

1:14:02With full respect to my personality of self-importance, I really think there's a degree of importance that's not respected. this is when my publisher penguin got really interested to and i was like i'm just going to reach out to academics and start researching this thing because i want to understand who makes money behind visual biases what's the economics because i'm clearly one of the most active stories in that instagram account i'm also one of the most well-read article um based on that and i clearly make their money because they sponsor it and there's loads of like people converting as readership so i'm like there's a whole economy on taking women down that sounds really interesting so at this stage it became a third TED talk for me it's the second book on visual economics and I got really into it I actually generally have so much excitement into like the research of it onto understanding who makes money behind all the images that we consume daily and a lot of it being biases in my case was really interesting for the paper they took an image of me when I was 23 so 10 years before that happened when I was not running my company I was in LA so they you know you know that as well there's loads of pictures of me at all the time so this is really not like they were struggling to find one I like to think of someone who has enough but they went specifically with the idea of super young headline of clickbait and then and then the bias behind this it's it got me really interested so I think that will become a really interesting second book and it is not as much as you asked me because I know you thought about this anecdote, it is not the worst thing that happened to me anymore.

1:15:34I think I would probably say that a year ago. I think at this stage, I'm actually really interested in what happened. We're not, the company continues to strive, but I personally found that whole economics I mentioned really interesting. And I want to keep diving in because it's a lot of our expertise to understand how people make visual stories more interesting than others and how they value them. So it's become an interest now how did this impact emotionally i mean right now i can clearly feel that you're taking it as a lesson learned about life and also about yourself and and resilience and and it made you tougher but i think it would be only natural if at that point in time and for a period of time you were impacted emotionally so perhaps you would go into a dinner with people that you don't know friends of friends and you might be thinking oh gosh maybe they read the article and i need to prove them wrong that i'm not this type of person so what was this in your head when you were meeting new people or even even at work with with perhaps new investors or your team yes so i feel and i think it's it's interesting because it's again it's about timing all these things because clearly i am about to create that chapter which is why i feel now more joyful about it you know it becomes a chapter.

1:16:54It's no more something that you're in it, right? I feel when the chapter unfolds, we all know, I think this is at large, when anything hard unfolds. It's a weird thing when it happens as you start getting older, because you almost see it. You're like, shit, this is a difficult period of my life. I'm entering one of those, where for a little while, that's gonna be very painful. How long was that? I think the real pain is probably for 10 months, because I was pregnant as well so I was full with hormones so I was physically quite affected and mentally affected um so it was like 10 months but it's really pain where you struggle to sleep and and you wake up and you're like as you wake up you still think it's a nightmare but it's real like is that you're still in that phase then I would say about a year like you know I joke to my French friends but like seeing a French flag will irritate me like there were silly things that like Like this will still last, but you can leave normally.

1:17:51Like you're not waking up in sweats. You don't have, this is our nightmare anymore. It's a crash course for me as someone that was really bad at it in vulnerability. I've had to be vulnerable with my team. I've had to be vulnerable with everyone. I've had to really lean in to talk about my emotions, talk about how I feel so that everyone could say that too, so that we could feel more united. So I think it was a crash course and transforming my leadership away from, I pretend everything is fine and I'm like having a great front because I'm a good at comms externally to really being more vulnerable, which was a needed transfer in terms of my evolution of leadership.

1:18:30I think as a person, I've allowed myself so many more things as a founder. And maybe that was also a bad time where the business is more established. I allow myself to have time for ballet and tennis. I will not have done that a few years back. I felt that was wrong to have this in my work day, but now I do. It's always, with anything that is difficult, you have a sense of priority. It really takes me a lot now to think something is bad. Your level of bad has increased, which I'm sure will keep on increasing. The watermark is different. Exactly. So I feel you have a better way to handle pressure purely because you don't consider most things to be that bad, in a sense.

1:19:13And I think also, you know, it's a really weird thing about my relationship with the digital space where I'm super lucky because where I live in London, I know most of my neighbors. I have a super nice community around me. And that was a really weird transfer because you get hate online. But then the next day, everyone is still smiling at you and they're lovely too because they know you, right? They have that really lovely understanding of you. but I think it actually also it's a bit cheesy but it made me think well actually let's reinforce that side because clearly this is a side where you also strive in it so I have now gone I'm even more active in my local community than I ever was you know I take the extra time to speak to the neighbours to even invite them for lunch I just I came to value that actually that mattered already back then but I think now this really matters because I got to see that none of my internal circles moved.

1:20:07My friends didn't change. My family didn't change. My community didn't change. So that really had to be preserved. They had to be made priority because when something like this happens, you know, you have to understand that this is actually who holds you together. So I think I'm better at protecting time around all those people and valuing this. And also therefore to have a bit of perspective because yes, you can receive a hundred death threat but your neighbor is still bringing you a nice uh dessert that night and still being nice to you and it just this happened within the same day and they say as you age you see that bad phases also have loads of happy moments in them so it's a weird thing where you like my best friend got married that year like there's loads of great i couldn't just even put that phase as a bad phase per se there was loads of lovely things that happened throughout so you're having to also see life for what it is that there is there's the highs and lows don't just happen in phases that also leave side by side with them.

1:21:01There's a beauty to that because also it probably helps you tackling the next phases as this comes as well. From what you're saying, I personally believe that we suffer more from our imagination than from reality. Definitely. So when we go to bed and we have whatever problem, it could be personal or professional, I think it's natural that unfortunately our head starts playing out these possible scenarios that can happen. And those scenarios can be detrimental, very scary, but they may never happen whatsoever. But we are unfortunately suffering from the fear of something that is not real. One of the things that I do is try to bring myself into reality, into what matters every day.

1:21:52And I also believe that ghosts only appear at night, not during the day. I think that's when we are more afraid and scared and all of these thoughts can happen. But as you were saying, trying to focus on the things that are real. So my neighbor that is bringing me a dessert or a nice phone call with perhaps my grandfather or a walk in the park with my partner and my dog. Small things that perhaps when things are going right, you just take for granted. But ultimately those are the things that, at least in my opinion, matter the most and they can bring you back to a normal sense of reality. Well, so definition of success, like you mentioned earlier, you know, I'm successful, which I think is still something that for me is a hard thing to say or acknowledge.

1:22:38But I would say the fact that no one moved in my internal circles when I was deemed not good to know or failing was amazing. I think that's probably the biggest boost of confidence you can give to any artist or entrepreneur. for them is what my friends didn't realize by doing this is that they allow me to fail about 20 times over the coming 40 years without me being scared about what those consequences will be I think what they all showed me two years ago which in itself and maybe again that's my positivity but I feel actually maybe had to happen is that actually that failure is even less scary than it was before.

1:23:18It is something that's actually seen as like, it's fine. Like no one will move on that side. So yes, I'm sure professionally it won't be pleasurable, but actually the rest of my life is not moving an inch. And that in itself is so resturing because I've, I got to see that I had built a net of people who care about me, my family's beyond anything that could happen in terms of the business. And I think with entrepreneurs would do so much for their business. I think that's something that we tend to forget, how important that is. And now I feel I have the confidence of someone who has a net. I don't think I had that confidence a few years back.

1:23:54I agree with you. And I think you're touching upon a point that is, in my opinion, incredibly important, which is having a healthy relationship with failure. Unfortunately, I don't think we are raised in an environment in which failure is tolerated, accepted, or normalized. And I think we should accept it. We should tolerate it. And also we should normalize it in every aspect of life, personally and professionally. Fortunately, when you go to school and you're like 10 years old and you fail an exam, I've never heard the case of a teacher telling the student, don't worry, you're really going to learn from not passing this exam.

1:24:33And I know that from this failure, you're going to have an A plus in the next exam. No, they usually tell you what happened why didn't you pass didn't you study enough so it always has a negative connotation and at least myself as an entrepreneur one of the things that i came to understand and learn through experience but not through not through literature not through books but through my personal experience is that failure is guaranteed it is guaranteed now there are different forms there's different magnitudes of failure but ultimately if you allow for learning to happen from those failures then it's when true success at some point in your life and in whichever way you define success personally professionally or as an overall thing which could be more related to happiness can happen but without that you are unaware you're unaware of so many things starting from who you are but i think that's the reason again i love sports um i'm smiling as you said that because I was dancing ballet at DanceWorks here in London with Jose who's one of my teachers on Friday evening and I was really not great shout out to Jose he was an amazing ballerina and he actually said that I was really bad at the movement and I think that really helps ballet is one of those things where it really helps against perfectionism because you can't be perfect it's just not possible you can't just turn up and be good at ballet because it takes years so from that and that's why I also love what I'm getting from dance work there is that he was just like that was just not great marine and then puts you on on the front next to him to just read you this you know and I found that this is why again I find so much joy and parallel between sport and business for that aspect of failure because he just looked at me and was like clearly you didn't do that well and then pushes me to retry and retry and retry and and And doing it, even because initially, like you can imagine my first ballet lessons, when you're put in the front row of everyone looking at you, it's your worst bloody nightmare for any perfectionist out there because everyone has to contemplate how not great you are at doing that movement.

1:26:46But actually then it becomes something that, again, it's a vulnerability to other people. You're able to show that you're learning. This is the only way to get there. Unless you do this, you're not going to get there anyway. And I think it's quite freeing. And I think that's what sports teaches you. They also teach you in sport that, and I see it again, even in tennis, same, the days you're good, the days you're not good. And they are completely fine with it. They're just like, your body is feeling tired today. You're just not at the level you normally are. And then normalize the fact that actually, which I've never had in business, that just today is not your day.

1:27:19And that's fine. You've turned up, you showed up, you've tried your best. Like realistically, it's not that great. It's not a big deal. I think all those little things I think has eased off to turn up to business because there's also times we feel on the high in business but there's also days where we're like can't produce anything good and actually you being exposed to investors or clients is probably a wrong idea in this context because you're just not in a high and I think all of these tips is again sport based for me I agree with you taking this into the context of business we've recently made a change into an aspect of my business.

1:27:55So on a monthly basis, the different teams, they meet with their managers and they go through the performance of the month. But also individually, the manager has a small, we call them coffee chats with each of the staff members that report to that particular manager. And the manager should highlight the things that they do well and the things that they do bad. Now, initially when we started the business and now we're on the seventh year since we founded Emerald, they would tell them, yes, you are doing this well and you're doing this bad. But the overall point of that is not for you to feel unhappy or unsatisfied.

1:28:36It's the opposite, it's to give you direction on what to do. But we realized that when we were using the words bad, terminology is incredibly important and how people absorb feedback. and we changed it I think it was two years and a half ago into the things that you do well and areas of improvement and immediately we were able to see tangible results into these areas of improvement so the conclusion for us was terminology is something that is very important and it really needs to change ideally I think at an educational level from when we were kids. But using words, and also we were discussing this earlier with your new pregnancy, but using words that have a different connotation, but effectively they're aiming at giving you the same type of feedback or definition can completely change the course of you doing A or B.

1:29:37True, but I think it's also complementary to this, training on how we get feedback more regularly. I think especially as leaders where going back to the ballet example, but I was deeply uncomfortable. So the first time that Dior José, I did that dance class two years ago. I didn't want to, so what you do in ballet is for 45 minutes, you do barre and then 45 minutes, you do centre. Centre means you perform in front of everyone, alongside everyone. So again, for perfectionists, your worst absolute nightmare because you're not good and you have to now do it in front of everyone. But I think if I look at the evolution and how I take feedback, and how I'm able to show that I'm not good to other people from that point to now is drastic.

1:30:20Because I think it's a training also to just turn up and be like, I'm not that good at that, and I can show up and own up for it. So I feel there's also, what I learned through this, is I think there's a place in society that needs to be put, and same in schooling on, in the same way that you develop critical thinking, and you know that we're big advocates for visual critical thinking, is how do you build resilience around feedback? How do you make that kid be like, I can be in front of everyone, not be that great, but still give it a go. And then every week slightly improve. Because most of us would not put ourselves, if it wasn't for that crisis, I would not put myself in that position.

1:30:58It's my worst nightmare. Now, obviously in the context, I was like, I can't do that since I'm already experiencing the humiliation outside. But then if I wasn't looking at that point in time, I would not have usually improved. and not just obviously in ballet, but personally and physically and mentally. So I also feel like we need to train on being okay to take feedback, to show to us that we are not capable of doing something. I 100 % agree. But I also believe that right now we live in a world in which social media in particular, it really is impacting our definition of success, our definition of failure.

1:31:38But also we believe that everyone is watching. So sometimes we are more afraid to start something. Social media in general, but also in particular, how media is consumed, visual media is consumed, and how it affects our brains is something very important to you. Important enough that you wrote a book, which is The Visual Detox. My first question is, why should anyone care about this topic? So I think it goes back to the idea of visual diet. like you consume 10 ,000 images a day. That's huge. And also that makes you... You see, we need to change the word. The word diet already is complex. We should call it something else.

1:32:16Well, it is a visual consumption because whatever, like you're doing a podcast, people are consuming that. This is going to shape them. My world is visual. Most of what you're looking at is going to shape you. That's the same. However, content, whether it's food or not food, your inputting is going to shape you. It's going to make you someone, right? Who surrounds you is also making you someone. So I look at how visuals make you someone. And that's one way you can be shaped. The way you dress, the way you think you have to turn up to certain situations, the way you feel pressured to act a certain way, that's all visuals.

1:32:50Like you've reproduced that through absorbing ways in doing things that are visuals. In fact, as a parent, your kids don't listen to what you ask them to do. They mimic what you're doing yourself, right? So you are constantly visually absorbing your environment. But we don't pay attention to it. and despite as I was saying earlier being visual learners in majority we don't understand what we're consuming all day long that is visual and that is incredibly important because with the rise of artificial intelligence you're going to be exposed to visual manipulation, visual misinformation so my story for instance of that crisis, they created a character, now in a few years you could literally make me act that character, not being me through artificial intelligence So you have to really be trained at what is the source of the image?

1:33:39What kind of software was used in that image? Like how was that image made? How do I decode that imagery? That's essential in challenging what you're looking at. And I think there's another thing with visuals is that for some reason we trust them. If we see something, we think it's true. But I think we can't assume that any longer in a world where actually most visuals are made up. Like you can't just think it's a truth by definition. so the book is very much looking at first awareness you're looking at visuals it doesn't matter if you're interested in art you are in a visual world like unless you're blind and you obviously can't walk around with hands on your eyes like you are in a visual world that is increasingly visual so you have to understand that you're absorbing all this content and we can call it differently than visual diet but you're absorbing it like it's just I think the word detox is great because I'm more inclined to do something that is detox because it feels like I was doing something bad before, but a diet sounds restricting, but yeah.

1:34:35Perfect. Well, we stick with this. We stick with this. This is fantastic. It will make my publisher very happy. Penguin was delighted. Number two, part two is visual literacy. Visual literacy is being literate when you're looking at visually, meaning that decoding mechanism I mentioned. Before you panic, a five-year-old can do that. We tested it on primary schools. your kid can say, that color makes me feel more stressed or this was aggressive or that scale because it was so big, it makes me feel very little. This is literally as basic as understanding the impacts that images have on us. We start our days brushing our teeth, we open our social media and that image that we first see is likely to shape the day of at least a few hours we're going to have, especially in the geopolitical time we live in.

1:35:23You could encounter an image is incredibly emotionally triggering. Before this, you would look at a TV or a newspaper, prepare yourself psychologically that what you're about to see might be difficult and then look at it. Right now, you're just directly triggered. That's going to completely change your emotional reaction to it. So it's teaching the kids, one, the fact that mentally you're affected is not because you have a problem. It's because that content is affecting. And second, let's build emotional vocabulary on dealing with what we're looking at visually so that you can talk to people about it because we can't, again, be blind.

1:35:57But we can start saying, I actually feel quite triggered by this, like for obvious reasons, like this is a normal human thing. But if I shout at you, I'm aggressive, you notice that this is wrong. But if a visual shouts at you, you don't. You actually continue with your day as if nothing happens. So we need to be able to say, actually, this affects me because it does. And also, we remember 60 % of what we see as opposed to 15 % of what we hear. So your memory is going to be storing all that content much more. And the third is looking at, therefore, how you can be more active at a civic level. So meaning, what are the visual decisions you're making daily?

1:36:36That goes back to visual biases. You really wanted to zoom in, for my gender, on that woman on the Daily Mail that had cellulite on. Now, this sounds very inoffensive, and this was a free click. Unfortunately, this is fueling an algorithm that says to the Daily Mail, discriminating women on their body, objectifying them or putting cellulite is making money. So I can put four adverts on this, meaning it's valuable. So all visual decisions we make has a cost. I want to speak about your point number two. Yes. Which is being more aware of what we are consuming visually on a daily basis. Now, I am right now, my iPhone is telling me that I'm averaging five hours a day.

1:37:20Yeah. on my phone. Which is not that bad. Really? From the stats, it's not that bad. I would assume that at least an hour. Yes. Maybe it's more, but at least an hour is on social media, unfortunately. Now, within that hour, it comes in different pockets of my day. And in most cases, I'm on autopilot. Yeah. I think, I would imagine it would be very hard for someone to not be on autopilot for the whole day and to constantly be thinking, why should I feel in this way? How is that making me react and so on? So is your advice to adopt this mindset every time we're on our phones or every time we're on social media or perhaps in specific moments of the day, like the first thing that you watch in the morning or before you go to bed?

1:38:11I think this is first is being aware of when you're most vulnerable. Like I mentioned it, like the most expensive advertising segment right now in the UK is postpartum women because they buy like crazy because they're so vulnerable. So plugging in adverts nonstop on their social media is the most expensive segment you can buy on social media. That's meaning is that there's a great economist piece if you want to read more about it. But therefore... I started thinking about business, like which products are they targeting? I know, exactly. But I think that means is that your vulnerable state, your emotional state really matters in that conversation.

1:38:46So back to me when I was in a crisis, I have to be careful, like much more than when I am in a very stable state mentally. So being aware, first of all, your state of mind is the first thing with images. But I think it's also, what I don't like about the argument of social media is whether we go switch it off or not, but that doesn't work. Most people say on. So can we just think of the kind of content we look at? Meaning, you know, if you look at artistic or nature content or like YouTube has such a good rating in terms of social media. I found my YouTube algorithm is brilliant because there's documentaries I like to watch.

1:39:21There's loads of podcasts and things that I really, it's in-depth, it's about 50 minutes long. It's things that are quite moderated. I sink into it. My state of mind emotionally is pretty positive at the end of it. So I think it's understanding, again, what kind of visual content do we really look at? Not just, should I switch off the app or not? Because that's not, you know, if you ban something, that's just not, that's going to make you want to kind of go back to it more. An example for cartoons, like they look, I look a lot at stimulation of visuals. So like my second, I put Winnie the Pooh, but Winnie the Pooh from the seventies.

1:39:56Now that music is classical and the pictures, the image is very slow and the colors are not saturated. They're quite soft colors. This is much nicer for a kid because saying to parents, especially when they're working, your kids are not going to have cartoons. Now, either the parents are going to lie or they're superheroes, but this is very rare that they could be like, of course, no cartoons at all. In that case, like for mine, they have it on the weekends, but they have the oldies where it's slow, more moderated tones of colors. The music again, it's less like this saturated. If you look at new cartoons, it's absolutely saturated.

1:40:34The colors are exaggerated. And why is that bad? Because it's overly stimulating, like most things visually that we're exposed to. And that's what gets you to have absolutely no focus. That's what gets you to be overtly desiring things every two seconds. This is the world we live in. We're creating new desires every five seconds on those things. They call about visual desires and visual hunger in the same way that you go for overconsumption because you're constantly desiring things. So even just that slowing down of visual consumption, when you're looking at an artwork, when you're looking at a movie, you're slowing down your visual consumption.

1:41:07It's not a quick, fast rate of the way that you're scrolling. So it doesn't have to just be a binary answer. It has to be what kind of visuals, when I look at them, makes me feel better. Just simple answer. And then you start looking at it. You mentioned that you go on autopilot. That's because social media has been proven that when you look at certain type of content that don't actually activate anything in the brain, your memory goes numb. So I will ask you, how long have you spent on this? you tell me 30 minutes, it's actually two hours. Like it literally doesn't register the time you're going to spend on this.

1:41:41This is going back to content is not by itself. Like you're doing content. Content is a bad, again, what kind of content you go towards. It's always the same thing. It's same with visual. It's about knowing the source and who do you trust with that. So I think the example of cartoons hopefully make people feel a bit better. It's not about just banning things. It's about understanding what kind of content visually is better to expose them to. And what about for an adult? because you said that I need to tune into content that makes me feel good. I think that is subjective to an extent. Maybe someone might feel good with some comedy content.

1:42:19Some other people, like for example myself, I feel good when I'm learning. So if I'm tuning into something where I feel like, okay, I learned something, even if it's a little bit. So does that mean that I should increase the dosage of that content on a daily basis and reduce, I don't know, maybe the other type of content? That's why you like the diet analogy, but here I come again. I think it's first to acknowledge our inequalities within that. So four out of five billboards in the UK are in working class areas. So I live in a privileged area in central London. I have no billboards, pretty nature, bit of parks, and beautiful architecture.

1:42:54I am less exposed to aggressive commercial imagery on a constant basis as I walk around the streets. Someone in a working class background is constantly exposed to this, Plus, as we know, because four out of five billboards are in their areas. Oh, why? But because it's cheaper land-wise and they know that unfortunately with a high consumer debt in this neighborhood, it's also more likely to consume more of the fast food chain or the gambling. It's a horrid, again, it goes back to the pregnant postpartum lady. They know that they're more vulnerable to that type of spending. There's less education.

1:43:28There's less success with the arts. There's less success with visual literacy. They're more prone to be spending. So there's a real cynicism, again, on the lack of visual literacy, which is the reason why, back to my socialist roots, I really want something that everyone has access to, because it is right, again, to understand how you're affected by all this commercial imagery and visuals at large. Because you can make an educated guess, but if you're actually constantly in that background and you have been educated, you won't make the same guess. So first is we're not equal to ultimately how we come to that table.

1:44:01in terms of visual exposure. We're also not equal in terms of mental strengths and how we feel as part of that table. We're not equal in terms of how represented or not we are in the visual landscape. So I think it's acknowledging first that we don't come equal. But once you're past this, I think this is why I like the diet analogy because they say by 10 years in your stomach, you know, they change every month or so. And when we have like a craving of silly things, like my parents didn't like cooking. So like there's things that you'll be craving for that actually if you stop like eating them for a month or so, after this, you just never crave them again.

1:44:37So like my dad loved Coke and we were drinking loads of Coca-Cola, but actually without doing a bad rep for Coca-Cola, once I stopped, I generally didn't crave it. Like it just goes after a little while. Visually, it's the same. Of course, when you're exhausted, you're going to latch onto something that's trash, which we all do. There's no judgment. but it's the same way in terms of content because once you start then feeling good because you've listened to something that's actually interesting and then the next day you talked about it at a dinner or with a friend and you felt really good about that like it's going to constantly go back to actually I like doing this like all things are new patterns of habits like the habits take time it's like it's that little thing that you do slightly different every day but overall makes you a new person.

1:45:24It makes you able to take on new things. Visually, you have to see it as a new habit. We've all habits, you know, I know that you've spoken on the podcast with like, whether it's exercise or other things, it takes time. There is also times where you will latch back on that trash thing. And that's fine too. Like you can't, there's no perfection in that progression of habits. But overall, it's understanding visually what are the habits that makes me feel much happier. And what I would say is out of practicing this, like I am obviously much happier mentally in the environment than I am from the exposure that I get, from the decreased exposure that I have to commercial imagery, from the artistic exposure or nature exposure I have.

1:46:04I'm very aware that mentally, especially if I'm in a low place, I have to be really careful about which environment I put myself in. So it's the understanding of this. I think it takes time. This is why I emphasize that we don't all come equal to it. I came from a beautiful island with loads of nature. This comes as a very natural thing for me that if I feel unwell, I will go into nature or for a walk in a park because that is something that I've built up from early on. If you don't come from that background, it might take a little bit longer, but we all know that and we know it. You know that when you feel not great, you want to go for a walk.

1:46:38Deep down, it feels right, but it's building up the pattern of the habits that you're actually doing it. Yeah, I've recently interviewed one of the leading experts in technology addictions, the consequences of being addicted to technology, which is Dr. Richard Graham. And our conversation was very extensive. It went over two hours. And if I were to summarize, perhaps I shouldn't summarize it so people could tune into the episode. but one of the things that really caught my attention is that I was trying to identify solutions, tips that we should be doing on a daily basis either to reduce our technology addiction or to reduce the negative consequences of overusing technology.

1:47:24And it's very similar to what you were saying. There is not a black or white answer. So it's not like perhaps you're addicted to cocaine, which there is a very specific blueprint. And there is a specific path that you should take. go to therapy and go to rehab and so on and so forth and then you're out of this but with with technology or in this case with with media visual consumption there is not a black or white answer and that for me as as a person in my late 20s seeing my girlfriend constantly using technology us wanting to have kids also very soon and being part of this very big experiment called digitalization.

1:48:06Yeah. It's like going into a battle without knowing which weapons I should take. Yes. But it's also, well, yes and no. I feel our kids are very lucky because unfortunately the generation just before is now, and I'm sure Grandma said that, he's now experiencing bans on high schools, loser schools, and now I'll think about it. But there's a whole generation that didn't have that. So actually my kids, when they will be, so they're five, two, and obviously I'm expecting again. So like they're still very little. By the time they get to nine or 10, most schools will have bans in. So I feel, I would say that we are lucky that our kids, there's a better, there's a better information, better knowledge around the fact that this is not good for them to be exposed to that.

1:48:51Well, at least I feel comforted in this and books like The Anxious Generation have done a great deal out of like pushing that narrative. So I would not be doom and gloom about it. I think artificial intelligence is probably the next thing. for me it's misinformation is probably the next challenge. It's like, I can make up whatever I want to say about you. And especially in countries like the US and France where freedom of expression is as large as possible, which is not the case here because the information law are quite high due to the royal family. But there is actually, I can't just turn up and say anything I want to say about you here.

1:49:22There's regulations. But there are countries like in the US where I can generally make up lies and I'm not liable for it. And now with tools, I guess, predilies And especially when the economics make money upon outrage, how outraged you are, that is my worry. So I think it's more critical thinking in my head that is a total battle that we have to fight, way above addiction to technology. Because it is like we are going to start living in a world where lies are just right, left and center. And I think that our kids will have to deal with. And I think that is frightening that I could say anything I want to do about you in the US without being liable.

1:50:02I think then the best tip for anyone to follow is buy the visual details. Yes, well at least on the visual critical thinking, on the verbal critical thinking, it's not me.

1:50:18Let's talk about Forbes. So you made it to Forbes under 30, I think it was in 2018. I know, that doesn't make me any younger. for someone like you that has been in a way scrutinized by the media how important was this recognition for you yes very i mean you've seen this year um and probably in light of your podcast it's interesting that for starting to 30 are having a terrible rep this year and i refuse to add to this because for me it was it was an enormous boost in confidence um i felt that that's actually the confidence I needed. You know, we were still having 10 challenges a day. It's just so nice to be acknowledged as trying to do something and believing in what you're doing at.

1:51:00I was a judge this year on the cultural section of Forbes. And I just feel like, I mean, again, it goes back actually to that joy of taking people down at a minute. But I just, I don't, I'm being protective around Forbes. Well, of course, there's young, there's ambition. I am sure there's going to be cases that are going to be problematic. But it's still a time when I started, you could not start being young. I think we forget that ultimately being young and starting something was not seen positively. It was seen as you were inexperienced and completely stupid and naive, right? So Forbes has actually normalized the fact that being young and starting something was possible.

1:51:41I agree that I can't wait for them to have Forbes 50 over 50, which is starting and having all diversity. I'm all for it and I'm and I definitely am not ageist but I think that we have forgotten that like at least when I started 25 years old doing something in traditional sector was literally seen as like completely crazy and being young was not something positive in business back then so we have to leave them the fact that they have therefore let all those kids thinking they can do something that's really positive now how do we do due diligence go back to critical thinking I think we are in a time, especially in the spreading of lies, where due diligence has to be the focus.

1:52:21But I think even us, when we hire people, like I could have done a much better due diligence in those consultants, which I haven't done. And I think that is again, the battle on how do we check? How do we constantly fact check? How do we make sure that who goes on this list are role models? But don't take down the list with you. Take down the, add a process to it, add new methods to it. I think it's always that binary thinking that drives me crazy where there are gray zones. Celebrate people, but just put a new method. I think fact-checking is becoming incredibly essential in the time that we're in.

1:52:56As you probably know, I've asked this question to every other guest and I've never gotten this answer. And I fundamentally agree with you. I think that Forbes, it is humanizing, it is normalizing young entrepreneurship. And I want to believe that ultimately this would lead into more young entrepreneurs following their passions and their dreams. And I think that's beautiful and that definitely needs to be encouraged. That doesn't mean that everything is going to be roses and flowers. there are going to be protein apples, but that doesn't mean that the whole tree should be burned. Yes. Moderation.

1:53:40Moderation.

1:53:48Marin, how would you define success? How do I define success? It's interesting, especially post this crisis. One exercise I did just before my TED was to say, close your eyes and think of what's most important. And I think because that's the way that they kind of teach you to relax before you go on stage and be more humanized and be more connected with people. But I feel it is value systems. I'm very proud of the projects that we've done. Like the fact that we were behind the first culture park dedicated to slavery was incredible. Like it's crazy that there hasn't been a museum or parks dedicated to something that imported 10 million people in the US and completely crushed their lives, you know.

1:54:34So I think value system, like that purpose behind your value system, it is family for me. Like, you know, I am so incredibly proud of my kids. I smile on little things like, you know, my eldest right now, it's like crafting things and coming up with ideas and wanting to do things to help people. And I cannot help but feeling so happy and proud that this is a character he's building up towards, right? And that is the depth of happiness that I have never experienced. So I think it's a values meeting the family that you are building for yourself. Friendship will definitely be part of that family.

1:55:10That is success. It is so way beyond any press that you can see. It is. But that's irrelevant at this stage. Would you say you are successful? On those both fronts, yes. I live by my values and I have an amazing family. So yes, I will consider that successful. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming and for sharing your story. I was thinking if I were to describe in one word how I think, how I feel and how I see you. Yes. It would definitely not be what you can read in the media, whether it is someone raising 35 million pounds right now or someone being incredibly scrutinized years ago.

1:55:56None of those. It would be brave. Oh, thank you. That's a nice one. I think your journey, your life has been packed with a lot of moments in which you needed to be brave for you to keep moving forward. So for starters, you were born in a small island and you decided to take on this big adventure and go into one of the biggest and most saturated cosmopolitan cities in the world, which is London. and then also even in LA, you start this business, that business doesn't work for one reason or another. A lot of people would be paralyzed, especially because as I mentioned earlier, going from zero to one is harder than one to 100.

1:56:36So having that so-called not business success at such a young age might prevent someone else from doing a second business. That was not your case. You still were incredibly brave and persevered and went for a second business. then while building also your other business you get this heavily criticism from the media which i also believe that in the world that we live in right now having this kind of negative exposure is even worse than probably 15 20 30 years ago you still managed to pull through pivot and see the most beautiful side or the or the positive learning aspects of it i think this is beautiful I thank you for sharing this today.

1:57:23I hope that whoever is listening, and I'll say this later, but we're on over 100 ,000 subscribers, so quite a few people are listening to this. But I think regardless on whether you're in the arts industry, even if you're an entrepreneur or a housewife, we can all learn from that, which is being brave. So I thank you for that. You've left me and my team with a lot of food for thought. and I look forward to seeing you perhaps in a year from now and see where you are. Yeah, same. And generally, love that word. It's also the key quality I would see of my granny. So it's nice for me. That's the way I would define her as well.

1:58:01Thank you.