The Entrepreneur Who Turned Burnout into a Bold Media Brand

0:00If this chapter of your life had a title, what would it be? chaos. I'm financially nowhere near as secure as I was when I was 25, but I am so much happier now. How did you finance those early days? Phoebe Cleary-Rudd is the co-founder and commercial director of The Sauce, a London-based digital magazine covering the hospitality industry. Since its launch in May 2022, the magazine has grown to 600 ,000 monthly readers, and they have launched influencer marketing platform Club Sauce, valued at 2.7 million pounds. So your magazine shares some of the best restaurants, bars. So I'm going to ask you your favorite brands.

0:40I'm not sure I would take a first date to Seoul. I take all my first dates to say hey. Okay, interesting. So you were included in this year's Forbes 30 Under 30. Was this important to you? You've had a lot of intellectual validation, right? Yes. Why was a beauty contest important to you? I knew the thing that would make that CV stick out at the top of the pile to whichever men were reading it was I used the fact that my childhood was difficult to push me forwards. Now I just have to win. I have to succeed. We've covered your relationship with winning. What is your relationship with failure? Oh.

1:24Why does the public opinion matter to you? I, um.

1:39Phoebe. Yes. How would you describe yourself and what you do? I am incredibly ambitious. I have the world's biggest chip on my shoulder, which means I've got to win at absolutely everything I do. and it makes me very competitive. But off the back of that, I've been able to build a business that I'm incredibly proud of, doing something that I love and I genuinely wake up every day enjoying the job that I have. What is it that you do? So I own The Source and The Source is a magazine that's focused on the hospitality industry. It was started in the wake of COVID to support hospitality. As you know, all of those restaurants had just been through the worst two three years ever lots of them didn't survive those that did were really struggling um and the source was just created to be a space that celebrated the people behind the scenes whether it's the founders or the chefs or the kitchen porters it was just designed to shine a spotlight on this industry and hopefully get people engaging with it again and spending money there and helping it grow um and then the source grew massively so we're about three years and three weeks old now And it grew massively and we've expanded slightly since then.

2:57And we've just launched ClubSource, which is an influencer marketing platform designed to make influencer marketing easier for hospitality. Beautiful. I love how you described yourself because I usually ask this question in the very beginning. So you get to introduce yourself to our audience. But usually the way people introduce themselves, at least in this show, is through a professional lens. So my name is Alberto and I am the co-founder of this, this and that. Yeah. And then I usually have to ask, but how would you describe yourself if we were at a bar? Yeah, yeah. Are you ambitious? Are you a public person?

3:34Are you positive? And that's how you started with, which is quite interesting. And then I had to ask you, what is it that you do? Yeah, yeah. Which is refreshing. So thank you for that and for the honesty. You have a strong academic track record. So straight A's in high school, a degree from one of the most competitive schools in the world, London School of Economics. Usually people with such strong educational background, they follow a corporate career that ends up being equally strong. Yeah. But you became an entrepreneur. Yes. Okay. Why? So I did try the corporate career. But my career journey has been very rocky.

4:17So I started out as a war reporter. And I was in Kiev and Ukraine for Euromaiden post the annexation of Crimea back in 2014. And I was like, I really thrive in not dangerous environments, but I liked the thrill of doing that. And I thought that's what I'm going to do full time. This is going to be my job. I'm going to be a war reporter. and so I go to the London School of Economics. What did your parents think of that by the way? That's a whole different story but I go to the London School of Economics thinking and I study politics thinking I'll graduate and use this degree to go back into war reporting but I did what all LSE grads do and I sold my soul and I went into the city and I went into finance and now Rathbone, Saunderson House.

5:06But I was just awful. I was never let me manage your money. Why do you think most LSE graduates, generally most business school graduates, they end up in finance? Yeah, I think LSE, I didn't like my time there. I think it's very much a branded self-study degree. You go to LSE for the name. If you go to Oxford or Cambridge, you're going because the value of the teaching is huge and you're actually learning a lot there. LSE, you get sort of four hours of contact a week. You're just paying for the name. And because you're not really engaging with your course, I think you just get sucked into this mentality where, okay, I'm here to make money at the end of the day.

5:49That's all I care about. And that's what I did. Everyone else around me was sort of getting jobs at JP Morgan's and wherever else. And I was just like, okay, fine. And I suppose this is going to be what I do. So I went into the city, but I was famously awful. I was so bad because it's such a regulated industry because it needs to be a regulated industry, right? But I am, you probably realize this by now, very chaotic and all over the place. And it just didn't work for me. And it was either a case of I leave or eventually they're going to ask me to leave, right? and so I left and there was this woman at the time who had this tiny tiny little blog and she wanted someone to come on board and essentially monetize this blog and I said no because obviously I said no I was making quite a lot of money and I just said no and I said no four times and it wasn't until the fifth time she asked that I said fine I'm going to do a total career 180 and go into digital media and it was a huge risk but I loved it just instantly and because the pay it was different to the city I was quite good at the beginning when I went into that sector and I negotiated and I said look we'll agree on x as a base and then I'll take 20 % of everything that I make for you on top of that and I'm very competitive and I've always been able to make money.

7:23It's something that I'm just naturally very good at. I know how to grow a company. And so I just went like that. I just did so well there. Bought my first house at 24 in London, which is huge. I was incredibly proud. And then after being there for two and a half years, left to start The Source. Interesting. Quite interesting. Because my brother went to LSE. Yes. And what he was telling me is that they have a very narrow definition of success. Yeah. So they tell you that you've got to go into finance or consulting, or if you're a lawyer, you're going too low. But those are the three career paths.

8:05And they don't teach us that success can be defined in our own terms. And I think the only way to do that is by testing. And I think from your experience, that's precisely what you did. you tested something else and immediately clicked with you yes how did you know this was the thing for you because I have a lot of friends um that they're going through career changes right now and they are happy to test which is I think a great first step I'm gonna test and see what I like what I don't like yeah how did you know that you liked it because sometimes you enjoy what you do but how do you know that it's actually something that you really really like that gives you purpose Yeah, for me, it came from the fact that I am so ridiculously competitive to a fault.

8:53And when I went into, because I'd done a total career 180, and I went into this new sector, digital media. And because it was largely a commission based role, I knew that if I wasn't growing this business, if I wasn't doing really well straight away, I'm not going to be making the money that I need, you know. and I just that I thrive in situations like that I just knew like every day I had to wake up and make money and I just really got off on that um and finance wasn't giving you that finance wasn't giving me that because there was no room in finance in the city to be competitive it was wealth management private wealth management for high net worth clients and I was just sitting there at a desk from nine to six every day looking at sort of portfolio valuations and I was so bored I was just so bored what I was doing wasn't particularly difficult but there was nothing in that that made me excited um and it would have been because it's such a regulated system it would have been years until I got to a point where I was going out and pitching to you know for new business and I just wasn't I just wasn't happy what is it that enjoyed about the media industry I loved I don't know I just loved every aspect of it I loved journalism obviously wanted to originally be a war reporter I love the power of being able to communicate with an audience um I like being clever with it digital media it's all you've got to be quite clever on on top of things like SEO um and now AI um and I just liked I liked every aspect of it I just instantly thought this is where I want to be.

10:38Because I think ultimately, you've got to do the thing that makes you happy. And when you're happy, you know it. How do you define happiness? God, that's hard. How do I define happiness? I think when it comes to work, happiness is waking up and not feeling like you are doing a job because you enjoy it so much that you'd want to do it anyway. I think that is happiness with work. I think happiness personally is, I don't know, it's tricky, isn't it? I usually save these questions midway through or towards the end, so we're a bit warmer in the conversation. So don't worry if you have an immediate answer.

11:22It's hard. Let me give you my answer of happiness. I think happiness is dynamic on one hand, and then on the other hand, it should be personal. Yeah. Let's start with the second one, which might be easier to relate to. Personal. So for me, happiness as Alberto should be different than for you, Phoebe. Yeah, yeah, of course. I think anyone can understand that to an extent. Yeah. But then also it needs to be dynamic. So for instance, right now I'm 29 years old. So my definition of happiness or let's say the ingredients that define my happiness at 29 are going to be very different than at 39. So perhaps right now my definition of happiness or these ingredients are having a stable relationship, being close to my family as much as possible, growing my business, have a good relationship with my partner and twin brother, which is a relationship that I really cherish.

12:15But then maybe perhaps 10 years down the line, that shifts. I may have kids, so how close I am to my kids, can I have a stable enough business so I'm actually spending real quality time with my kids? So that's dynamic, right? Yeah. So I think a lot of people, especially when we are deciding what to study and what are the first jobs that we want to do, we end up making educational choices on what we're going to study or career choices based on either what media or society tells us or what our parents tell us. Yeah. And unfortunately, then we enter a rhythm in which it's very hard to come out from.

12:56Yeah. And then maybe one day we wake up at the age of 40, 45 and we're like, is this really what I wanted to do with my life? And it isn't. And we didn't try anything else. And maybe you're in a situation in which your career is advanced enough for you to be able to pivot into something else. I still believe and I'm a strong believer that you can change your life at any point throughout your journey. but it would be naive to say that it is inheriting, it is slightly harder when you're at an advanced stage because you need to factor failing, right? And if you want, for example, to become an entrepreneur or even just work at a different industry, completely different than yours and still work for a company, failure is there, it's an option, right?

13:40If I'm failing in my 20s or let's say my early 30s, I'm failing cheap because let's say I most likely won't have a family that depend on me. Yes, yeah, yeah. But if I'm on my 40s or 50s, if I'm failing, I'm failing expensive because I can't, my risk appetite by definition is going to be lower. Yeah, yeah, of course. Because I have a family that I need to support. So that's why I'm always a big supporter to test as much as you can in both your personal and professional life whilst you can. As early as possible. Yeah, as early as possible. Exactly. Because then you can approach exactly the same question.

14:13What is your definition of happiness with more accuracy? Yes, yeah. Which I think it should be the goal for everyone. And I think the goal is to have the nice house or the goal is to have the beautiful wife or the, you know, handsome husband or three kids and two dogs, whatever it is. Usually those are Hollywood definitions of happiness. But it is to find yours. And the only way, in my opinion, to find it is by testing. No, I completely agree. I completely agree. It's the most important thing is just to be happy. and it took me a really long time to realize that and it took me a really long time to realize that actually you've got to work to be happy you've got to wake up and try and actively be happy every day and I truly am in a space in my life now where I am the happiest I've probably ever been and I'm significantly happier now when I'm still in you know essentially the early stages of building a business.

15:11I'm paying all of these people at the end of every month. Sometimes I'm not paying myself. I'm financially nowhere near as secure as I was when I was 25 and on six figures and owning a house. But I am so much happier now than I was then. And that's what it is when I wake up in the morning and I'm just very conscious of the fact that I don't feel panicked about things. I don't obviously feel stressed about work things, but I wake up and I genuinely know that I am happy but that takes work like you've got to work to be happy it's not always easy I think I'm very curious to identify and then analyze the different factors or stimuli that affect or shape your perception of life as an entrepreneur or let's say even before you become an entrepreneur to then become an entrepreneur right yeah so usually some factors or some things that happens throughout your youth shape your mindset in a way that at some point you become an entrepreneur.

16:13And this has been the case for every entrepreneur that has sat down in that chair. So just to summarize your journey, which I think it's quite interesting. So you go to LSE. In LSE, they tell you that this is the career path you need to follow. You end up in finance, like probably 99.9 % of the LSE graduates. And then in finance, you quickly realize that you don't like it and I can probably also safely assume that a lot of graduates feel that right now yeah then the difference is that you've had a person that knocked on your door four different times it's interesting to see that it took you four times which still I think is it's a great number it could have taken you 15 times and maybe not even see it to say okay I'm actually going to take the risk to take the risk yeah um so I think just like probably sometimes the opportunities are there we just we just can't see them because we're too afraid to take them or to actually open our eyes and see them but in this case the opportunity was there and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people are in a job that they don't like that they also have opportunities but they just are not courageous enough yeah to be able to see them and then grasp them yeah so that's interesting and I can understand why then you had a passion for media and then how maybe you developed a a media company but there's there is a piece within your journey that really caught my attention so you competed for the contest the Miss England right competition contest yeah I did and I'm quite curious about this because you have a very well-educated and and strong academic background you had some corporate experience now I mean you wanted to become an entrepreneur so you've you've had a lot of intellectual validation right yes why was the beauty contest important to you because it wasn't important to me it wasn't important to me it was because I've always been quite good at playing the system I'm quite pragmatic and I'm quite realistic about things and I was at LSE and I knew at that point I was likely to go into finance right and I knew I mean we don't need to beat around the bush it's a very misogynistic industry finance it really is it's very male dominated and I think to pretend that it isn't is just naive um so i knew that i was going to be going into finance and i knew that it was even as an lse grad you know with a straight a star track record it was still going to be really competitive getting these jobs and i knew the thing that would make that cv stick out at the top of the pile to whichever men were reading it was oh she's pretty which is really bad and it's a very anti-feminist thing to say but i knew that that would get me to the top of the list and so I played the system which is probably quite an awful thing to say because it's not what you should say it's an honest thing to say it's an honest thing to say it's an honest thing to say but I've always been incredibly pragmatic I've always been incredibly realistic about things and do you regret doing it even though you had an intention a logical intention no but I don't regret many things I don't have a lot of regrets I think you do what you have to do in the moment to succeed.

19:17And I don't think there's a huge amount of point going about life thinking, oh, I wish I would have done things differently. You do what you do at the time for whatever reason you make that decision. No, I don't regret it. I mean, I don't go around telling everyone about it straight away, but I don't regret doing it. You said that winning is important to you. Yeah, incredibly. Winning over others is important to you. Yeah. So how do you benchmark it over others? Why is it important to you to measure yourself against someone else? So I know where it comes from, but it's... Homeware. Okay. So growing up for me was quite difficult as a child.

19:58I had to manage risk from a very young age. I have a close relationship with both of my parents now. But growing up, it was difficult. I was a social services kid. Yeah. So I was on my own from very young, pretty much, and had to look after myself from a very young age. What is very young? 13. 13. Yeah. And I think at the time, you know, you think, you know, I'm strong and I'm capable and I've got this and I'll be absolutely fine on my own. But you don't realize that you're actually still just a child. What happened at the age of 13? I, well, social services got involved when I was 13. And so at that point, I basically checked out of the family home.

20:49And I just stayed with whoever I could stay with. And basically just did that and got in a series of pretty nasty scenarios. Did you have siblings? Yeah, two younger sisters. Did they follow you? No, they both stayed home. You were separated. They stayed home. Yeah, and they were fine. It was okay for them. It was just slightly different for me. It was different for you. Can I ask why? No. it was okay it wasn't like the world's worst thing that could possibly happen but it just wasn't a nice way to grow up and what did you learn from this well this is this is where it all comes from for me because those years 13 to 18 went to LSE when I was 18 those years 13 to 18 were really hard really hard yeah um and not nice and not pretty yeah um but it taught me because i had to learn how i just had to look after myself and i had to survive regardless of what the situation was and it gave me this huge drive that's where it comes from because i know that I am capable of getting through something and I know that I am capable of winning and I know that I'm capable of surviving.

22:08And I think the worst thing that you can do in life is look back at anything and feel like a victim. There's no point doing that. I use the fact that my childhood was difficult to push me forwards. And so I get all of my drive and all of my competitive energy from it. And it's because of the fact that I have this huge chip on my shoulder. And I refuse to ever be back in that situation. I refuse to ever be as unhappy as I was in those years. And so that's, yeah, now I just have to win. I have to succeed because I can't go back there. That's what it is for me. Thank you. And I really appreciate your honesty.

22:44And since you opened up about something delicate from your life, I'm going to do the same. Okay. Okay. So we level the playing field. I've had a very complex relationship with my father that I believe it also shaped the entrepreneur that I became and I would say more than the entrepreneur the hardworking, resilient, incredibly resilient person that both my twin brother and I became without going into details and specifics at the age of 18 we just stopped having a relationship with him and that means also having no financial relationship with him So we see ourselves in a situation in which we do have big dreams, hopes, but no vehicle to get us there.

23:27So we need to build the vehicle ourselves. And in that moment, Phoebe, you grow the, pardon my French, but the fuck up in a matter of seconds what may take you years to grow up. Because there's no plan B, there's just plan A. And you've got to figure out that plan A. And probably that was one of the hardest moments in my life and one of the most important moments that I would not change. Exactly. I would not change whatsoever. Exactly this. So I can relate to what you're saying. I can understand you now better as an entrepreneur. And I thank you for sharing this with us.

24:13Now, take a deep breath and we're going to go back to the sauce magazine. Okay. Something a little bit more logical, less emotional. So let's talk about, exactly, your magazine, The Sauce. How would you describe its content and editorial voice? So you've already mentioned to an extent the mission, especially when you launched it during COVID, but deep dive into what type of exact content are you portraying there? So we try and do things a little bit differently. there's a lot of press um lots of really incredible titles that focus on the hospitality industry you know you've got the standard who do what they do wonderfully do you not agree with that no i didn't say anything but anyway you've got all of these titles and they're all doing something fab and i think if you want to do well if you want to be successful you or you know if you want to build an identity, you've got to stand out slightly.

25:14And so we've always been quite offbeat. We've always been a little bit quirky. We use a lot of dry humor. We're very witty. I have absolutely no wit, so I don't do the writing. I'm not a funny person. But we're lucky enough to have a team that are really quite humorous. And I think that's it. How big is the team? A team of 12 now all in. So we have, you know, sort of the core PAYE in-house full-timers, and then a network of columnists, contributors, freelancers, influencers, and then back office, so HR, accountants, etc. 12, 13, about that. But yeah, it's growing. what made you think that this was something that could work because um there are a lot of magazines right as you've mentioned right GQ how to spend it so many different lifestyle magazines um that they're just bigger and they have deeper pockets and they already have a readership yeah a user base and they are not only in print but in digital they're all over the place yeah so So what made you think, you know what, the world needs another magazine and I'm actually going to succeed because this is how I'm going to differentiate myself.

26:31Yeah. Well, I already knew that if I chose to take the risk, I would succeed because for me, I don't, you know, I don't see failure as a real viable option. It's going to work because I'm going to make it work. So that was one thing. But that to one side, it was also the fact that I just spent two and a half years really successfully growing essentially a competitor another digital magazine and growing it to the point where you know I was taking home a huge amount of cash and I bought my house so I knew that it was doable I knew that I could do it because I'd just done it how old were you when you started the sauce when I started the sauce so three years ago so I would have been 26 26 yeah um so I knew that I could do it because I'd already done it um that's so interesting because Because exactly the model or the storyline that you're describing is what happened to so many other young entrepreneurs.

27:27How do you mean? So they were inspired by a sort of startup experience in a similar field. Yeah. So that enables them to see that things are possible. And then the second thing that enables them to believe that things are possible are being young. When you're young, you're naive. And being naive can be incredibly powerful. so the combination of both makes you start a business yeah yeah absolutely this and i think it goes back to what we were saying earlier where you can take more risk if you're younger if you're married and you've got you know children and school fees and mortgages and car payments your appetite for risk is significantly lower because you have all of these obligations financial obligations and you need the security it's really scary starting something new because you absolutely can fail and the stats are out there you know it's like 99 % of businesses do fail like most of them do not succeed everything is stacked against you it's a huge risk and you know if you're going to put a bet on that risk like the chances are you're going to lose your money like it's not a sensible decision it takes a huge amount of guts and a lot of bravery we've covered your relationship with winning what is your relationship with failure oh it's something that I'm working on because it's not a very good one I don't have a very good relationship with failure I would love to look at you and say that I completely accept that failure is part of life and I will grow from my mistakes etc etc you logically understand failure but emotionally you don't accept it precisely this I logically understand it emotionally I don't accept it So what happens if the Source magazine, for some reason, has to shut down?

29:16What would you do next? Describe me how you would react the morning after. You wake up in the morning and what do you do? Honestly, it's just my work. It's like I can't compete it. It would just be... I think I would find it really, really hard to pick myself up from that. I think I would be really broken by that um I think I'd probably if it had to close tomorrow I'd probably try and reframe the fact that it had closed I'd probably in order for me to get through that I'd have to reframe it so I'd say well look we were doing all of this so brilliantly this was that one thing that came in and killed us.

30:09You would reframe that to yourself or publicly? Both, I think. Why does the public opinion matter to you? I don't think that I would do very well with people thinking that I hadn't succeeded in something because my whole life has been about being really publicly successful at a very young age and earning lots of money very young and buying my house before any of my friends... And people expect that from you. And people expect that from me. I understand that. And I've got to keep that trajectory. Why do you have to keep it? I understand people's expectations. Yeah. But why do you keep feeding into those expectations?

30:50I don't know. It's probably not very healthy. I don't think it is. No, it's not. I also think that it's not easy to let go from those habits. Yes, this is precisely it. Yeah. And it goes back to what we were saying about happiness. you've got to really work to be happy every day and this is something that I know I need to work on I've got to work to be less driven by what other people think of me um I've got to work to be less driven by this fear of failure and accepting the fact that failure is a part of life and at some point it probably will happen in some way or another and when that happens if I'm not equipped to deal with that well then I'm going to be in real trouble so I've got to work on this I don't think that this is precisely something that only happens to you so on the case of failure itself nobody teaches us how to fail so when we go to school could be university it could be high school let's take the example of high school when you fail no let's actually take the example of university when you fail an exam and i cannot imagine a teacher going to you and say phoebe i know you failed this exam but because you failed i know you're going to learn so much that i know the next exam you're just going to smash it yeah no they're just going to tell you what happened yeah you know do you know phoebe what are the consequences of you failing probably in lsa they will tell you you're not going to make it into finance but you know they they impact this or they they shape your relationship with failure in a way that makes you more risk adverse.

32:36And then on the other hand, at the personal level, I can relate with trying to fill in some shoes, right? So you were hardworking enough, but also you were lucky enough to be able to enjoy a level of success at an unusual age. Yeah. So usually if you're a singer or a football player or even an actor, when you're young is when you succeed. Maybe not so much in acting, but definitely singers and athletes. Yeah. And it's normal to be a successful young person. But when you are an entrepreneur, it's usually the opposite. So you peak in your 40s, in your 50s if you peak. But when you are that little anomaly within your circle of friends and family, and I can totally relate to that.

33:29Let's be honest, it feels great. And it's a feeling that you don't want to let go. But at the same time, one of the things that I came to learn is that it's not healthy wanting to get that feeling constantly. And I don't think it's necessarily something that comes from insecurity. I don't think it's purely related to external validation because I feel like someone that has accomplished so much at such a young age, it's quite a strong, confident person. But it's more related to trying to feed back on that feeling. I want to feel it again. I want to feel it. I want to keep feeling it. It's like being addicted to something, right?

34:07So perhaps there's some dopamine involved, even oxytocin, maybe to an extent. But I think being able to understand that and know that for sure it feels great. But can you keep that up? You can't keep it up for the rest of your life. So you need to protect yourself. Yeah, but this is precisely it. So you use the analogy of addiction, right? And it's like, let's say you start taking drugs, and you have this incredible first high. But then every time after that, you're just chasing that high again, and it's never quite enough. It's never as good as it was, which I think is why it's always about, that's where that drive comes from.

34:43Because, yeah, I've just achieved this amazing thing. And it's great. And I feel so, so good. And everyone's really proud of me. But now I have to do something bigger. And now I have to do something bigger and then bigger after that. So I do think it's just about trying to navigate that trajectory in a way that's as healthy as possible. Also, because in your particular case, the media industry is transforming very rapidly. So print died. Then the digital world was born. Then I was reading recently that maybe print will revive again. because the new generations, they don't want to be reading. They have this nostalgia with paper.

35:23Who knows? Maybe it's not true. Have you considered a print version of the source magazine? Considered it wouldn't do it. I would love to have a print version, but print is not a good industry now, which is a shame. I agree. I agree. There's something beautiful about a physical object, right? Yes, yeah. Being able to do something tangible. Yeah, I love reading the paper, but no, it would lose me money not making me money, so no. So a lot of startups, cross-sector, could be in your sector, the media sector, could be in the hospitality sector, which is mine, or even in the tech environment, they go through various different changes from day one to day 1 ,000.

36:01How did the source magazine evolve from idea to what it is today? So we are always developing. we have not found the perfect state of being yet um and i don't think we ever will you're forced to adapt you're forced to make changes sometimes as often as on a monthly basis um but because that's a process you learn on the way what's working and what isn't and it's completely fine to try something and it not work out yeah that's fine because that's how you learn and that's how you grow the company um but we're still developing when we started out we weren't as strong at some things as we are now um one of the big things in digital media is keeping your traffic as high as possible um and in order to do that you need to be publishing quite a lot of content um because the more articles you're putting out into the world the more readers they're bringing you in And at the beginning, we were quite just, we took a very sort of lasso-faire, relaxed approach to this.

37:14We were like, okay, we'll put something new out this week and something out next week. And now we're a lot more militant about keeping on top of the amount of content that we produce, but simultaneously making sure it still stays very strong. But what's more important, quality or quantity? Quality is more important. Quality is more important. We don't produce anywhere near as much as some other titles. we produce enough to keep that traffic high but without it you know having a negative impact on the quality of what we put out we would rather that's in pr do you think it's the same in social media possibly but i don't i think it's hard social media it's a very different industry to what we're doing but i think when you look at sort of creator profiles and influencer profiles it is just how much can I post every single day so I think I think it's a different situation but no for us it's it's quality over quantity but keep the quantity high enough to keep the readers engaged interesting I've interviewed some of the greatest social media experts in this country and they said that obviously the algorithms they're very dynamic they change constantly but it's chaos yeah but they say that today um the platform that gives you the most traction is tiktok followed by instagram and that quality quantity in social media today is more important than quality yeah it's just about how much can i put out there every single day whereas but i think it's different because they're trying to achieve no the frequency of how much time they want us engaged within social media is different to how much time can I be engaged within magazine.

38:56Precisely. Yeah, it makes absolute sense. Yeah. Right. So are you familiar with the US tradition of the US president tradition of being 100 days in office? So they usually get very criticized or analyzed or judged during their first 100 days in office. I think that entrepreneurs learn so much and go through so much change and go through so many problems in the first 100 days building your company and I think there should be a dedicated book or even a dedicated podcast about maybe I'm giving an idea to somebody else so give me credit okay I'll send you an invoice for this but there needs to be a deep dive into those 100 first days in building your company how were your first 100 days oh my goodness it was just looking back now it feels like such a long time ago but it really wasn't that long it was three years it was just chaos it's interesting that it feels like a lifetime ago yeah because you do so much yeah because so much has happened exactly it feels like 20 years ago but it actually it's not that long ago but the first but the first hundred days were just chaos oh my god we just made so many mistakes.

40:13So the title is chaos for those 100 days. Yeah, we made so many mistakes. We got so many things wrong. But it's just because you're trying to... I'd never set up a company before. I'd never owned a business before. And it's everything from the legal side, the whole company's house side of it, to things like SEIS, if you're onboarding early stage investment, just trying to navigate that for the first time and understand it. And then hiring. For those that don't know, those are UK schemes. to be able to onboard an investor with tax benefits. Yeah, precisely. But they're very complicated. In the beginning, they're very complicated.

40:49Now I can do them with my eyes closed, but they are very complicated in the beginning. So that was all chaos. And then it was realizing that, you know, like, oh, crap. Like, we've just put all of our eggs in this one basket. We have this thing. We've got to make it work. It's sink or swim. And I have a co-founder. He's older than I am. um but he's a lot further along in his life than i am so he's married with children yeah and it's what we're saying about risk his risk appetite is lower we had to make this work this thing at the beginning but it was nuts like we just got so many things how did you finance those early um those early days i sold my house wow i sold my house that's how much you believed in it that's how much i believed in it how much did you invest yourself i'm not gonna tell you that but But was it enough for you to be a little bit uncomfortable?

41:41Yeah, yeah. It was a big risk. 100%, it was a big risk. I'd gone from making well into six figures. I was making a lot of money. I bought this house very young. Financially, before I started the source, I was doing well. I was very comfortable. And I gave it all up and cashed it all in and took the biggest bet on myself. You don't regret it. Don't regret it. But I don't regret anything. But I had to completely start over from scratch. And it's terrifying because you're like, that house was my security. My equity in that property was my security. I have nothing now. I have nothing. And I've given it all up and put it into this company.

42:27And if this company doesn't work, you know, I'm screwed. Like, there's no plan B. Did you design a plan B? No, no, no. There was never going to be a plan B. It was only of a plan A. I was going to make it work. Whether I, you know, didn't sleep for three months at a time, I was going to make it work. It couldn't fail. And how is the company performing now? So first of all, how does it generate revenue? What are the different revenue streams? Yeah, so our revenue comes through advertising and our clients tend to be venues within the hospitality sector, bars, restaurants, hotels. or brands within the F &B space, so champagne brands, wine brands, etc.

43:11But we work with them in a very different way to other platforms. The margins in hospitality are so narrow at the moment, there is no money there. It is not ethically correct to go to a restaurant that's struggling to break even and say, give me£10 ,000 and I'll write one article for you, and it might do really well for two weeks and it might get you a few bookings because you can't ask them for that amount of cash like you just can't so the way that we operate with hospitality is very different to other platforms we don't take that approach when we partner with anyone um you know with any restaurants we do so over the longer term they will pay us a very low reasonable flat fee and then for that flat fee we organically cover them over the course of the next three months six months or 12 months so every piece of news that they have whether that's a new menu launch or they've opened an outside terrace or they're hosting a party and they want people there whatever piece of news they have we will just include it organically in our content so it looks really engaging and they're getting you know this huge amount of value for the money that they're paying you've got to be really careful you just can't go and take advantage of hospitality at the moment and there are other platforms out there that do that and that's how they generate their money um and to me that is wrong do you think this model is sustainable because they're the trend um in media advertising so the spend is reducing is coming down um i think in 2024 was just it fell by 7.2 % in the UK.

44:59So do you think there's a trend here that you need to be careful about? No, I think you need to be aware of it. I don't think you need to feel threatened by it. It's like anything. It's a process of adaptation. It's like how do you adapt to a changing landscape? Exactly. So do you think you might need to come up with different innovative ideas on how to generate revenue? 100%. For creating content? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. And that's what we do. So we've expanded the offering slightly. We went from purely just working with venues to working with brands. Now we're moving into the lifestyle space.

45:38We've just launched ClubSource, which is an influencer marketing platform. and that has a six-figure ARR off the bat the second it goes live. So that's going to be revenue generating for us. We can take the profits from there, pump them back into the source if we need to. But absolutely it's a process. Interesting, so you thought about this, okay. Yeah, yeah. It's a process of adaptation. You've got to adapt to survive. And don't be afraid of the landscape. Be aware of it and think about how you can best navigate it. what are the ball uh the revenues ball ballpark figure of the company i'm not telling you most people tell us in this show well okay it doesn't need to be a precise figure uh they're both seven figure businesses if i was to sell both of them to where i get seven figures for each one um are they profitable The source is now profitable, yeah.

46:37Club source is obviously in development, but the wait list is there to bring in 600 ,000 a year the second it goes live. And obviously a tech valuation, you typically times that by 10, that's a six million pound business off the bat. Probably more. Yeah, probably more. Yeah, they're profitable. And if it's purely tech, and there's no operating cost direct to consumer attached to it, you get a much higher valuation, and you don't need to be profitable, but that's a conversation for another day. Exactly, but the source is, so ClubSource is the money machine that makes the cash because it's tech-based.

47:15The overheads are minimal, really minimal. And because it's recurring subscription revenue, it really doesn't, you don't have to go out and hustle for every bit of money. ClubSource just brings in cash. Like it's just, it just makes money easily. Whereas the source, the overheads are significantly higher because I'm hiring an editorial team I'm hiring designers I'm hiring sales people um and I'm paying all of these people who are very good at what they do and as a result of that not the cheapest I'm paying all of these people at the end of every month it's huge outgoings and on top of that you've got to go out and really hustle for every sale that you get.

47:55It's a much more difficult business model, the source, than ClubSource. So ClubSource, A, it was a money making opportunity and I like to make money, but B, I realized that we needed some kind of safety net here just in case. And that's how ClubSource came about. It makes absolute sense. So in a similar way, our business, so our parents' company generates It's over eight figures in revenue. Yeah. And we have seven-figure EBITDA for many years now. And we're working probably with one of the biggest private equities right now in the world, which we're very grateful to work with them. But our strategy to be able to arrive to a stable financial position was to de-risk our growth and our revenue streams.

48:44We're going to bore our audience with how it works in hospitality, but you can actually make substantial amounts of, let's call it liquidity in hospitality. because other businesses, you get a lot of good valuation on paper, but it's not liquid. In hospitality, you can get a decent valuation, but it can be incredibly liquid. And for instance, my favorite restaurant in our group, which is probably the most fine dining, but ultimately the food is just, I wouldn't say better, but surely the produce is better, but that's why it's more expensive. It's probably one of the most beautiful, if not the most beautiful restaurant in London, in my opinion.

49:15It is the one that generates the least amount of money, not from a top-line perspective but from a bottom-line point of view but we call this the octopus strategy so the head of the octopus would be an incredibly fancy or or um beautiful business that adds value not from a quantitative perspective so not in your bank account but from a qualitative point of view and then this octopus has multiple different tentacles and those tentacles they need to be generating money to feed back into the head of the octopus and that works and that's something that I've seen, that strategy in multiple industries.

49:49So it's good to see that you're doing something very similar. I like that, the octopus strategy. That makes a lot of sense. So yeah, the source is the head of the octopus. Club source is one of the tentacles. And then there will be natural... I came up with a different analogy, the spider analogy, but people don't like spiders. Yeah, I prefer octopus. I think the octopus is more democratic. People like it.

50:12But no, that's exactly true. So the source is the head of the octopus. club source is one of the tentacles and then there's natural progression from both of those businesses so i think the next step for us would be launching some sort of 360 agency because you've got the content side on the magazine you've got the social side with the influencer business you launch something that combines both of those one shop for everything what one stop shop exactly so there will just be natural like progressions exactly which is exciting

50:51so this question is for all the London listeners so your magazine shares some of the best London's restaurants bars so I'm going to ask you your favourite your favourite brands So which one is your favorite or best date spot? Oh, my goodness. So you don't understand how often I get asked this question. It's the first thing everyone asks me. It's so hard because it changes all the time. Because London is so exciting. There's always something new opening. And I think it really depends on what you're looking for. But best date spot right now, Marjorie's in Soho. hmm i'm not sure i would take a first date to soho i take all my first dates to soho okay interesting i guess we'll never meet there okay um best restaurant really depends for it depends for what obviously but for you your own definition of what is a good restaurant so which one would be the best but i think currently at the moment dorian nottingham max cohen what he's doing there is incredible and but also the reason that i like it is because we're seeing this real shift at the moment to sort of fine dining without the pretentiousness behind it i agree with you the food is incredibly strong there's an open kitchen you're sitting at the counter you're getting a bit messy i think nottingham in london right now is the place to be and for example uh pre-covid uh 2019 2018 uh people love to dress up and and the definition of having fun and let's say luxury was something very pretentious like your Annabelle's in London and sexy fishes well probably not sexy fishes but yeah those those kinds of experiences but post-covid people just could used to be in their you know pajamas and stuff and right now you're able to go to restaurants that are not in Mayfair that's why Mayfair has been heavily drastically, deeply impacted post-COVID and with the interest rates and inflation.

53:04But Notting Hill or West London or even more towards the East, but anything that is really very much not Mayfair based, they became very cool, very trendy, offering the best produce. And you still get the cool crowd that used to dine in these, let's say, eight places in Mayfair, but they are going to these other neighborhood locations dressed in a cooler, more informal way So without paying probably a stupid amount of money, still paying a decent amount of money, but not the expensive fees that they were paying in Mayfair. Exactly. Which is, I think, a great transition to... It's so, so true. And it's like, no, if you turn around to someone and you say, I'm going to Sexy Fish, or I'm going to Annabelle's, or I'm going to basically anywhere on Barkley Square...

53:51It sounds you're not cool anymore. I agree with you. But you turn around and you say... Very like materialistic, you know, remark, but in a way. Yeah. Speaking in the language of the industry. And instead you want to be at Reuters or you want to be at Marjorie's or you want to be at Dorian or you want to be at One Club Row. Like that's where it's all happening now. Best Sunday brunch. Oh. At home. Yeah. At home. My philosophy is I'm incredibly busy during the week, Monday to Friday. That's my busy time. Sunday lunch, Sunday brunch, anything on the weekend, it's my house. Nice. What do you cook at home?

54:30So I love to cook, right? I really enjoy it. You deliver. I find it very cathartic. I find it very therapeutic. I enjoy the process and I like to host. But there was a but coming. There was a but coming. But I think I've had to come to the conclusion that I'm just not a very good cook. so the first time that I so if I'm dating someone the first thing that I cook for them when they come over is always a risotto okay I always make a risotto because I think it's quite a romantic dish you can both participate in the process you know but I'm head chef they're always you chef so how do you go from a romantic risotto at home to a Soho night what do you have against Soho no nothing I love Soho but I would yeah yeah I love Soho is just Soho is my place so I've been a member of the Groucho since I was 18 but oh I was going to say something now and I just realised I can't say it although I take my membership away but no I love ok best bar for a night out bar not club if you can get it in the Groucho because it's naughty and exciting things happen like can't tell you you can't say a lot of things ok Okay, let's get into a more personal lens.

55:54Okay. What's the hardest moment in your journey as an entrepreneur so far?

56:08I think the hardest moment has been navigating hiring mistakes. because when you're a small business you don't have a huge amount of cash and when you're hiring someone you've got to make the right decision um and if you make the wrong decision it's going to really negatively financially impact you and I've learned along the way um how important that is and I've made wrong decisions at times with people that we've brought on board to the team and that's nothing against them as a person I really firmly believe if you don't love what you do you're not going to be the right person for that role so it's very much a two-way street but it's then navigating that process um and letting someone go I've not had to do that before as a business owner and that's been tough letting someone go has been tough yeah letting I found that difficult because I think my philosophy, I have a number of philosophies in life, but one of them is just don't be a dick.

57:15And I never want to be unkind or make someone's life difficult. And when you're letting someone go, you're putting them in a really tough situation. You've got to prioritize the business. You've got to do what's best for you and for your company and for the rest of the team. but that means that you are negatively impacting someone else and that was hard, I think. That's very interesting because I think the best decisions need to be logic-driven, especially, particularly, if you're building a company but at the same time, by definition, a founder is emotional to its core. so being able to navigate or find a sweet spot in between both you know that this is the right thing for the business but at the same time most founders they are emotional I think you need to be emotional to be a little bit bullish to do your business and stuff and that comes again with a set of challenges like for example this one how do you let people go my experience, I mean right now we have as I told you earlier around 300 people employed But practice makes, I don't know, it just, you know when you go to the gym and you're working out with dumbbells and things and then all of a sudden, you know, your heart, your skin starts to become rougher and tougher.

58:42In the very beginning, it hurts. But then it just, at some point, it doesn't hurt because you're numb. It's a sad thing to get numb from, right? Getting used to fire people. But it is part of what you signed up for. Yeah, it's part of the process. And, you know, we've only been going three years. It's really not a huge amount of time. And we're going to see this issue probably again and again and again as we continue to grow. And that's it. You do just have to learn to be tough about it. But yeah, it doesn't mean we're all human at the end of the day. And I always try and be kind. It's just hard.

59:19It's hard, but it will get easier. did you what did you have to sacrifice for you I mean in the last three years for you to build your company I mean the obvious answer is money um to go from really just having more money than I knew what to do with to basically having none I wasn't paying myself I was paying all of these people, that was a huge sacrifice because it changes the way that you're able to live your life. You know, I'm not going on holidays or things because I'm putting everything I have into this company. Money is the obvious answer. You go from being really comfortable to starting from absolutely nothing.

1:00:04I think that's a great answer because a lot of people might get into business, into entrepreneurship for the wrong reasons. They might think, well, because I see this online and this person is living the life. If I become an entrepreneur, I'm going to do the same. And that's why these people will end up quitting very quickly because they're not going to see profits overnight. This is just almost impossible. Yeah, exactly. Quite unusual. And if it happens, I don't think it's related to you being an incredible entrepreneur. I think it's mostly because you're lucky. Yeah, yeah. You know, building a company takes time.

1:00:36And I was having exactly this discussion yesterday with another guest that came to the show. And she was saying that precisely what you were mentioning, for many months she didn't take a salary and sometimes she still doesn't. And those are sacrifices that before you start a business, you need to know that they will happen. And if you're a person that cannot be stable in unstable situations and even feel comfortable in uncomfortable situations, you're going to be making the wrong choices because you're going to become incredibly emotional. and you're going to be making the wrong choices in your business or in a professional context, but also you're going to come home and make the wrong choices in your personal life.

1:01:12Yeah, exactly. So I don't think entrepreneurship is for everyone. And I think conversations like this one, you're being, and I really appreciate it, Phoebe, you're being incredibly open and honest. So you started with a beautiful smile saying, I love what I do and I don't regret anything. But at the same time, hey, look at this, this and that. These are the things that I needed to let go. and this is precisely what we want to do with the show. So this is the journey, raw, unfiltered. Now, whoever is listening to this, if you want to become an entrepreneur, this is what it is. Yes, at some point maybe you can make money, but it's a big maybe.

1:01:48The biggest factors that contribute towards your happiness are freedom and being able to build something. So if that's something that triggers you, 100%. But I think it's important that people are real and honest with themselves and not get into entrepreneurship because in this day and age is the thing that they tell us that is going to make us feel enough and purposeful and better because it's not the case for everyone. Not everyone would get off or would have that same feeling from entrepreneurship. Yeah, it's incredibly hard. It's incredibly hard and I think you are either the right person for it or you are not the right person for it.

1:02:29I think do not go into it thinking you're going to become a millionaire overnight yeah you might get super lucky but 99 times out of 100 that's not going to happen um and you will sacrifice so much trying to make it happen and your confidence will be knocked and probably because you're so stressed your health will be knocked as well and it's this huge huge huge gamble um and I just think I think, you know, dream big, but equally be really aware of the risks because there are a lot of risks. On the days where everything goes absolutely wrong and your brain keeps telling you, quit. Yeah. What motivates you to keep going?

1:03:16What do you tell yourself? Oh, gosh. I've had those days. I've had those days and you just think that you know you're not going to be able to survive this and it's all going wrong I got to the point quite recently when I was trying to raise for Club Source where I had literally six weeks of runway that's all I had and I just knew unless I raised within this amount of time like the whole that whole business would just go on like it wouldn't work and I just remember being so deeply incredibly panicked by everything and so overwhelmed um but I think you've got to you've got to try and get through it and for me the one thing that I told myself is as long as I can make this happen as long as I can raise this cash then I've immediately got a really successful business and it's just thinking to yourself like you just need to do this one thing and then you can make it through like you just have to get over this next hurdle and then it's going to be okay like you just have to keep pushing yourself it's really easy it's an awful lot easier to give up it's significantly harder to keep going when things are hard um and it requires so much just willpower um no there are so many times where i just thought oh it'd be so much easier if I sacked all of this in and just went to get another job in the city or something and it's a lot harder to try and keep pushing forwards but you've got to try.

1:04:52I can relate to that. Yeah. My trick when I mean a company goes through different maturity stages right so in their initial years it's like it's like a love relationship right in the in the initial years there are a lot of things that can break it right because it's not strong enough yeah so i remember in those initial years also for us um financial planning was was incredibly important and our forecasts they were so tight and obviously um you were depending on so many different factors happening and and so many things that you forecasted for them to happen that if one of those factors doesn't happen then okay so what are we doing right but they need to happen yeah um and then as the company grows and becomes more mature and financially stable you're able to then make more strategic decisions rather than tactical and operational so you can look at three or even five years down the line which is luckily where we are right now but I still apply the same approach when I have a tough day at work in my business so in entrepreneurship but I guess I think it's like with anything in life you can see a problem composed of multiple problems, right?

1:06:08And when your brain, I think any human brain, tries to solve multiple problems at the same time, I think you're just going to freeze. Yes. You're going to freeze. And your brain is going to immediately going to tell you to run away. Yeah. Because that's just too hard. And your brain is trying to protect you. Fair enough, right? I mean, that's a survival instinct. Yeah. So I think what's important is to focus on one thing. Yeah. Right? One thing at a time. And that allows you to, A, be able to formulate an accurate and tailored solution towards that problem. Yeah. And then B, execute it with logic, not emotion.

1:06:51Yes. Yeah. And then you go into the next problem and the next problem. And for a lot of people listening to this, they might think, oh, that sounds so tiring. Well, yes, it is. but I don't think there's any other way because trying to do multiple things at the same time maybe you can and you're a genius I personally feel that maybe you will be able to do it once but because you're going to be in this situation multiple times I think the best approach is to simplify things you just got to approach it really methodically simplify things, for me it's about simplifying I was reading an article and don't quote me exactly on the numbers but maybe not the majority but a big number of UK millionaires So let's say entrepreneurs that became millionaires, so successful entrepreneurs, they are dyslexic.

1:07:32And dyslexic people, by definition, they need to simplify things in order to understand them. So they need to break them down. And that's what my brother, my twin brother and I, we're not dyslexic as far as we know. But I think today you can get diagnosed for a lot of things. But we don't think we're dyslexic. But we do simplify things always, always. And that allowed us to pull through, believe me, Phoebe, in one of the toughest moments that you can ever imagine. that I personally believe that if I would just share that same situation with anybody else, I would feel like you're at the dead end.

1:08:02You're not going to make it. But simplifying it, you know, you're just breaking down and just by breaking down all these problems, you see like small routes and then there's a path towards sunshine. Yeah, but I think this is exactly it. So it's when everything is going wrong at once, you do go into survival mode. And a lot of entrepreneurship is very much fight or flight. and you'll hit these huge hurdles, and your brain will either want to run away, you know, flight, where you give it all in, and you stop the business, and you go and get a job somewhere else, or you fight, and that means you're going to push through it, and it's about how you push through it, you know, which is what you then need to navigate, but I think you do one or the other, and a successful entrepreneur will always do fight, not flight.

1:08:54That's so interesting. I'm going to add to that because I'm reading a very, very interesting book about the different, let's say, parts or components of our brain. And one of the oldest parts of our brain is our limbic system or amygdala, which registers all kinds of emotions, right? Fear, love, excitement, all of those. The problem is that if you act on those emotions is when you are probably going to develop a solution towards a problem or a situation that is not fit for purpose. Yeah. But what this book is saying is that the amygdala was incredibly useful to make us survive and preserve us.

1:09:33So back in the day, you see a tiger and the amygdala is telling you, run away. Now, according to this book, there are three different solutions that your brain is giving you against a problem or a threat. Flight, freeze, or fight. Exactly. Exactly. I think the worst one is freeze. The worst one is 100 % freeze. But I've seen a lot of people that fall under that category. They just don't do anything. Yeah, yes. So I think if you're going to be in that situation, try to fight. I think it would always be a good option. But it depends on the magnitude of the problem, right? So if it's a tiger, you might not win it.

1:10:09If it's a big enough problem for a business, sometimes it's better, you know, to call it a day and do something else, right? But ultimately, it's about, in my opinion, movement. Never, ever, ever freeze. Yeah, if you're confronted with a problem and you bury your head in the sand and you refuse to address it, that problem is only going to get worse. It's not going to get any better. You have got to make a decision. It doesn't really matter what that decision is. Obviously, it's best to try and tackle the problem and move through it. But you can't do nothing. And so many people do nothing. Talking about people, including us.

1:10:50we're all flawed right yeah we're human we're all flawed and I believe that we live and we learn right so we need to make tons of mistakes to be able to learn what's the biggest mistake you've made as a founder or co-founder and what did it teach you it's hard because I try not to look at anything as a regret but I've definitely made mistakes

1:11:20um god it's hard the biggest one because there are so many there are so many mistakes

1:11:28probably not developing different avenues of the source as quickly as i could have done avenues you mean revenue streams i mean revenue i mean diversification of content that we're producing um not moving fast enough with trends or keeping up with how the landscape is changing being too i think ultimately my point is being too in love with your business yeah i was gonna say too slow to take action but yeah in love with the business yeah you've got to move quickly you can't be scared to move quickly you're going to get left behind if you don't and it took me too long probably to realize that we could be further along than we currently are if i'd realized that Jeff Bezos says something very, very similar.

1:12:13So he said a good or great entrepreneur has two traits. And they are conflicting traits, but you need to have both. You need to be very stubborn. You need to be stubborn to keep going. The days where everything goes wrong, you're going to tell yourself, I'm going to see this through and I'm not going to quit. But at the same time, you need to be open-minded, which is the opposite, right? So the market, once you deploy a service or a product, will give you feedback. and if you're too in love with your business right you're not going to adopt that feedback right new trends whatever new competitors entering your industry and you need to be open-minded enough to be able to shape your business so finding the sweet spot of being stubborn but at the same time open-minded is where any entrepreneur yeah wants to be in exactly and one of my biggest issues is and this isn't a good thing i'm quite bad at taking on board criticism i don't handle it very well and I always say to my team you know you've got to listen to constructive criticism because it's good for you it's how you grow and how you develop but I'm very hypocritical because I don't like having criticism directed at me and what that means is if someone's saying to me Phoebe you're not doing this as well as you could be like the source needs to be doing this slightly differently I'm always a bit like hmm I don't want to take that on board so I've got to learn to be more open to that criticism because ultimately I'm just I'm just holding myself back by not doing that sometimes it really depends on who is giving you that criticism not about the criticism itself this is very true so this brings me to a very important topic which are co-founder relationships so the second reason why startups fail is due to co-founder fights yeah um so what type of relationship do you have with your co-founder so because there are a few interesting things that you mentioned the first one is that he's older than you and then the second one is that he's in a more advanced stage in life than you so he has kids yeah so that means that he's more risk adverse how do you deal with this we the reason so firstly I am incredibly lucky to have Phil as my co-founder um I get that you know because it's such an intense process building a business that relationship can be really tricky at times and with us we've always been incredibly lucky that it's worked very well and the reason for that is really obvious to us it's because we are polar opposites we are completely different i am very headstrong adhd all in chaotic it's going to work because it can't fail let's just throw all of our eggs in this one basket and move really quickly and phil is incredibly cautious and let's be very slow and let's think things through and let's look at you know the financial projections behind this and let's look at the legal implications that this has and it's very like if it was just phil on his own the source wouldn't work if it was just me on my own the source wouldn't work we have the parts that the other person is missing if that makes sense so together it's the perfect balance but I'm so lucky to have him and he's we worked together um at the last place as well he was my editor there um so we knew that we had a partnership that we could turn into a successful business already um but he's amazing I'm incredibly lucky to have him it sounds like it yeah if this chapter of your life had a title what would it be chaos that it would just be chaos do you like chaos i do i thrive in chaos it makes me happy i love chaos though yeah why do you like chaos um it's just where my brain gets most excited I don't like structure and regulated situations I like to be free to take risks and do crazy things I just get off on chaos it's the way that I because my childhood was chaotic and that's what I'm used to that's how my brain learnt to survive at a very young age and so now yeah chaos good chaos though is the chapter of that title is happy chaos good chaos not bad chaos can relate to that so I become the better version of myself when my life is complex when things are not incredibly foreseeable when I have like three five different projects that are at and at early stages but I still need to keep my business as usual um and that's when I am probably yeah the best version of myself I'm sharper and faster yeah because you're being kept on your toes that's why like your brain is like forced to engage constantly with everything that's going on when life is dull and nothing's really happening that's when we just become quite a boring version of ourselves because there's nothing to excite us i think i mean at least in my case i agree with you i i become slower and i just don't have the smartest ideas i have less ideas but I've seen that some other people when things are foreseeable they're the best version of themselves yeah and when you start to complicate their life structure to one extent again they go back to either freezing or fleeing and I just don't think there's there's a box that fits everyone's no we're all different yeah so I think an entrepreneur by definition needs to like chaos yeah i think to be a successful entrepreneur you've got to be able to thrive in chaos and you've got to get off on it and really like it yeah um if you like structure and order and things that are foreseeable and everything's making sense it's not the path for you yeah let's talk about forbes so you were included in this year's uh list forbes 30 under 30 yeah was this important to you incredibly important to me incredibly important to me um it's been a goal of mine for years um since they launched it pretty much um and it happened at the 11th hour because i turned 30 in september it was either now or never and yeah it wasn't an option for me to not get it I had to get it.

1:18:55I think for me, it's like Forbes under 30 for an entrepreneur is probably like a Michelin star for a chef. That's how I see it. And I was like, I had to get it. I had to. It was going to happen. I can understand you really wanting to get it because you're very competitive. And at the same time, you're in the media industry, right? So obviously, you know Forbes, what it means. So that's like maybe for somebody else liking it, but on steroids, right? Yeah, yeah. do you think it contributed in any way the journey of your company I mean probably it's too early to say because it just happens but yeah it's tricky it's definitely my life has changed as a result of it in terms of just the success of the business is really like we've had a lot more interest and a lot more engagement off the back of it.

1:19:49Do I think that me wanting to one day receive it affected how I ran the source? Probably not. But we'll definitely capitalize on it now to continue growing. How would you define success? It's really hard because if you'd asked me this question four years ago, I probably would have said money. Because at the time, I was making all of this money. And I was like, wow, I'm successful because I'm so young. But now I look back and I realize I wasn't happy then. And I've started over from scratch. And I'm significantly happier. And I genuinely wake up in the morning and I love my life. success I think the bottom line is just about being able to wake up and say I'm happy today if you can do that then you've that's that success would you say you're successful now yeah I would yeah thank you Phoebe thank you for for coming for your honesty it it's been it's been beautiful to to chat with you I think right now we live in a world that celebrates or defines founders in two ways.

1:21:08So you either need to be a tech founder or you need to be on a mission to change the world. But one of the main missions of this show, of our podcast, is to demonstrate that success can have many different shapes, forms, definitions. You didn't reinvent the wheel by building a magazine, but that's precisely, that's exactly why I think your story is incredibly important. You have shown us today that success can have a completely different form, a form that is rooted on a very conservative and old industry, and that is also incredibly risky because it's changing. Yet, you found success in it, you found happiness in it, and for that you have, honestly, my deepest respect, and I very much hope that the sauce and its sister brands within the octopus strategy become a huge octopus.

1:22:11Thank you. Thank you very much.