Tom Grennan’s Story: From Singing in a Pub to an 80,000-Audience Stadium

0:29We signed for such little money, are amassing billions of streams worldwide. Tom Grennan scored two UK number one albums. With Evering Road in 2021 and What Ifs and Maybes in 2023. Following on from his success in the charts, he's also won the best UK act at the 2023 MTV EMAs. As well as two Brit Award nominations in 2022. I've never had an attitude of, I've made it. I still don't think I've made it. What's the biggest crowd you faced? About 80 ,000. Fuck. I know you were discovered in a pub. Yeah. I want you to describe me that particular evening. I never went into a pub thinking I want to get signed, I want a record deal.

1:12I never had that in my mind because I didn't know what a record deal was. All I had in my mind was to impress people. That was my first introduction to what mental and what mental health is, you know? And what depression is. What anxiety is. and I'm really having to like remind myself like be present, take it in because like I hope it lasts forever you know but like you never know you know. The worst thing about it is

1:52Tom. Hello my friend. Hello. How are you? I'm good how are you? Yeah I'm good. Your first dream was not to be a singer. You wanted to play football. I would like you to walk me through the moment where you allowed yourself to give up on your first dream and pursue another one. I think I've always been a realist. I've always thought and looked at the bigger picture. and I realised that I wasn't good enough. And I realised that even if I worked so, so hard that I could possibly make it to the lower leagues of football. But I have always had this thing inside me where I've always wanted to be the best and I'm too competitive.

2:49Maybe that's a good thing or a bad thing. But I've always had this thing inside me where I thought I'm going to do something that's going to hopefully change a little bit of, I'm just going to change my life, my family's life, my friend's life, and also put a footprint in the world, you know? And when I realised with football that this wasn't going to happen, I had to really just say to myself, this was a childhood dream. but they're not good enough. So when I realised that and put that in my mind mentally, I was like, right, cool, I can shut off, don't worry about it. And it didn't affect me.

3:41I didn't have these thoughts of like, oh my God, I'm not good enough for anything now. I knew that I still had this thing inside me, but I just had to find it. and I think I've always been creative. I was creative on a football pitch. I've always liked to impress people. Whether that's ego, I don't know, but I've always wanted to be somebody who has the whole room in the palm of their hands. I was like that at school. I was like that as a child. Do you know what I mean? I've always been that person. So I was like, what is that? like what is that inside me and and a few people saw I was good when it when it came to being on stage so a teacher at school was like you should do that I was going to pick like in school over here you have to pick like um options to do like GCSE and like A levels and stuff like that and I picked business I haven't had no idea about business I'm one of my teachers I'm one of my friends was like I'm telling you business ain't for you go and do drama um so I was like well if these two people I trust are saying it saying it then I might have to do that and also my mum is a big factor in this because my mum has always said and my dad have always said we'll be happy with whatever you do but you've got to go find it and so when these people are saying about business I I was like, all right, cool, I won't do that.

5:20Then I'll do drama. Because I didn't think I was that guy. Do you know what I mean? But I loved it. And I loved it and I loved it. And I was like, maybe I can see that when I'm acting or when I'm becoming a character or doing something like that, I can see people smiling. So I knew I had a little bit of talent there. Do you know what I mean? And then I went and did this thing in London called National Youth Theatre, which is so hard to get into. And I auditioned and this teacher was like, go and audition for it, see what happens. But it's really hard to get into. And I auditioned and got in straight away and came to London for like six weeks of the summer holidays and or whenever it was and learnt loads about the acting world.

6:13And I was like, yes, like this is unbelievable. I'm from a little town called Bedford and I was meeting people from all over the country who were like not afraid of like being just themselves but also just being creative and thinking a little bit differently and not being stuck in this like one-minded like small town mentality and I was like there's a whole bigger world out there than then Bedford and I love Bedford but it has that mentality so I was like I want to do acting so I went home and then um I applied to go to different various acting schools um and I was going to audition and then something happened to me where um I was attacked and had my had my jaw broken and and and I thought oh my god this is it now like all these opportunities of me going acting school are done and I also um I think we're going to get into this but all this was the first time I had um an insight of what like self-doubt was because I'd been randomly attacked this was what my first initial thing to depression was and I became sunken into a hole however whilst I was in that big with all that dark cloud over me I was writing like writing my thoughts writing what was going on in my head and again I had a family and I had friends who were so so supportive in that time where they were like you just have to get out of Bedford like just go and try at least one of these uh drama um acting things just go and do it and I picked a little university in Twickenham called St Mary's which had a small drama department and I loved it it wasn't like a big acting school in London.

8:26It was this little like homely place in Twickenham where I was like, actually, this could help me like just progress and take little footsteps, you know? So I went there and the love came back for acting. I did physical theatre and I picked up a guitar at uni and I was just in my room, not thinking about anything, but teaching myself how to play guitar. and I didn't like playing other people's songs because I'm too competitive and I was like I can't sing it as well as they do or I don't like what they're doing here and I was like trying to like break away the parts of somebody else's amazing song I was like nah I gotta just try sing my own songs so i had that diary of all these thoughts and all these like words and i was like right let me pull that out and see what i've got and i started just picking different lyrics from different parts of all different words from from different parts of my diary thing and creating into into lyrics and then started putting them on on guitar and i started writing and then i was like These songs, in my opinion, they're wicked.

9:51If I look back, they weren't very good, but for my time and for me first starting, it was the spark and the fire, you know? So you fell in love with football, then you fell off football, but you said that you worked very hard and at some point you saw that you weren't talented enough. Then you go into acting and then you find throughout your acting journey that at some point also there is a space in your head and in your heart for music and then you fall in love with it. Now my question is, you quitted football not because you didn't work hard enough but because within your heart you thought, I'm not talented enough.

10:36Let's move this into the music space. Do you think singers are made or born? I think in my case they're made because I took everything that I learned from football into music and I still look at music with the analogy of football I didn't have the right attitude when I was playing football I was good when I was young and I thought oh my god I'm gonna make it and then like I say I got older and realized I wasn't good enough but I took all the things I did wrong in football into music I was like well I'm gonna work every minute of the day every minute of the hour just trying to to get better and better and better and that's what I did and my attitude was like I ain't stopping until I've made it and I ain't stopping until people know my songs and people know me and I ain't stopping until like I have done what I need to needed to do and that's looking at that little boy in the mirror saying I'm going to be something I'm going to do something so massive that it's going to happen so I think in my sense they're made however some people are born with it like anything I think just some people are born with it and and there's nothing wrong with that either um but people like me you've i've had to work hard for it and i'm still working hard you know i'm very very happy that you're answering in this way to be honest i i wasn't very sure what type of answer i would get for this question especially coming from the singing or from the music industry but effectively what you're saying is that if i would have put the same work that i put into music if i would have done exactly the same and i would apply the same method of hard work into football yeah your chances your chances would have been of course you know bigger yeah and also my opinion is that both industries you know are super hard to make it yeah but i think in my opinion in my humble opinion it's even harder to make it in the music industry because in the football arena you know there's 22 players and there's at least in Europe several different clubs that you can play for at the first degree level but in music there's like a smaller space where you can make yourself be seen and heard so you quitting an industry where maybe it's slightly easier to make it and to reach that top and then transitioning into another one where you worked much harder than the previous one and the chances to make it are even harder i think it's a great tale of saying hard work defeats almost anything definitely i believe that you went to acting school yeah would you recommend any singer to go to any kind of university before deep diving into the industry um i think what acting school and and what the arts there gave me was the tools um to perform but also like i think university for me was was character building i got to meet these i've got to meet amazing people you know who just i wouldn't have never ever ever met um now like one thing I just never never let happen was like well I never really sung when it when I didn't do like musical theatre I did like movement theatre physical theatre so I was singing at uni but I was never gonna let anybody change my voice you know I mean because a lot of like acting schools you have to like be trained to like sing in a certain way or talk in a certain way and I just I just knew that that was never going to happen you know for me um but I definitely would recommend like if you're thinking about getting in the industry like then but you you're still kind of like hesitant I'd say definitely go out go to uni and do something that that you love doing because you're going to meet amazing people make great friends for life and have experiences you know what I mean and you can still make it in an industry with going to uni uni is expensive though do you know what I mean uni is expensive and it's like you say it's so hard to make it in an industry any industry really but yeah my advice because I did it I'd say go have fun at uni like them 18 year olds to 21 or 22 like them years there are so important to to go and have fun you know a good friend of mine he's a known actor and i asked him this question and his answer was to be honest i would recommend if you want to be an actor for example to go to university but don't go to drama school study anything else like start engineering yeah in case you suck at acting when you have something else to do.

16:11Is there a particular degree that you would recommend for a singer? For a singer? Yeah. I would say don't do singing like your friend says. Because they will try and change your voice. That's guaranteed. But if you want to go and have fun, then go do whatever you want, innit? Go pick something, just do that. Cool, I'll have a bit of that.

16:38All right, let's go backwards to the origins of your career. So for the first three years, when you started singing, you were playing in pops. I can imagine that a lot of people under the same circumstances would have quitted, you know, and they would have stopped singing because they're not seeing the results coming. How did you avoid this from happening? yeah the challenge of winning people over I think for me was like I'd go into a pub and I'd always knock on doors really I'd I'd I'd be like can I play here can I play on a Thursday night can I play on a Wednesday whatever day of the week you want me to play here and I'll play for no money just give me some bit of food or whatever and I'll play but I only had like five songs you know I remember I said I don't like playing other people's songs.

17:34I only had five of my own songs at that time. So I had to like sing them differently. So the managers didn't go, we've already played this song. But it was the thing of like winning people over for me. Like if I could go in a pub and there'd be 12 people in a pub, I'd want every head to turn and go, who's that? And we'll see you singing because you never know who's in a pub. You never know who's in a place, you know? Anyone could be watching. I always had that mentality. And there was gigs where like people wouldn't listen at first, but I would like end up getting that person to listen. Even if I had to like improvise and like start like just making up like lyrics to like pick on that person who's not listening.

18:20Do you know what I mean? I have a similar question with other guests and they're predominantly entrepreneurs. And what I've discovered is that for you not to fail, the first thing you have to do is not to quit. Now, each of these people, including yourself, you have different reasons for not quitting in that period of going from zero to one, which is much harder than going from one to 100. Some people it's because they believe in themselves so much and that allows them to pull through. Some others it's because they love the idea, the business, you know, the concept. Or some people are like you, you know, that the thrill of being in stage, that feeling that you get in that particular moment, perhaps you wouldn't trade it for anything else.

19:04And even if you did it in a pub, that was enough for you. I know you were discovered in a pub. I want you to describe me that particular evening. How did it happen? How did you feel? And what kind of proposal you got? Okay. How did I feel? I never went into a pub thinking and of like, I want to get signed, I want a record deal. I never had that in my mind because I didn't know what a record deal was. All I had in my mind was to impress people. But a guy came over to me and he was like, are these your songs? I was like, yeah. He's like, cool, I work for Sony. Have you got any of them recorded? like nah like wouldn't even know where to start he's like you got a manager I was like nah he's like alright cool meet me tomorrow and if you can get something recorded like on the phone or whatever so I had a friend who worked with cameras like I was like bro we need to go into like a cool place and just filmy singing and that's what we did at uni there was a church at uni sorry the church was a cool place yeah honestly it sounded amazing in this church like the acoustics I was like and it looked sick do you know what I mean the lights would come through the glass and we just caught the perfect time right so that's what we did and put it online and sent it to the guy and overnight it was on Facebook at the time so it had like thousands and thousands of views online overnight I sent it to the guy and he's like get into my office now because he obviously saw it online and then I had all these other like people going who's this guy like can we talk to you from different labels now like loads of different people coming at me and I'm like oh my god what's going on saw the guy and I was like right like what do I do and from there really we just kind of got into it got a manager um and got all that kind of stuff like secured and and then I signed a record deal maybe like a week later um and I was still at uni at this point so like I signed and we'll get into this maybe in a bit later but like what I'm about to say is we signed for such little money because like in my head i was like i don't wanna i don't want to um because in the music it's like a bank loan in it so yeah i don't want to like take so much money and having to and then under deliver and under the liver yeah exactly i want to like take a small little amount so i can record my songs and stuff and then give this record label an album that they're going to be looking back now do you think that was a good idea 100 % okay but like the best decision that me and my manager have ever made yeah I think some people that are listening to this right now might think you know what you know Tom became famous because he was lucky you know there was this you know Sony producer and if he wasn't there maybe we wouldn't know anything about Tom I would personally not agree with that to how many pops have you been before arriving to that pub that there was no one within the music industry that would have you know spotted you yeah so you beat the odds ultimately as we were saying before it is really related to hard work 100 all right let's talk about support how supportive were your friends and family because i can picture my dad telling me that if i'm if i were to sing in pubs i can picture him telling me go and get a real job whatever is a real job for him right so how were your friends and family um my mum and dad have always been like believers in in me my mum would like say go and do what you need to do and that will always support you I have a small group of friends who have been to every gig of mine when I did pubs come to every pub but like small and then everybody else said I wouldn't do it everybody else said said what are you doing everybody else like when I was at school or whatever like and I said I'm gonna go and do this stuff would be like what are you on about like you're not good enough or would would would laugh or like I was quite popular at school and then when I had a dream and when I when I when I said that I was gonna do this like music thing or whatever they'd be like nah and then it started becoming like a like a joke like Like these people would, like there'd be a running joke about me trying to do this or do that.

24:17And now, like I'm cool with these people. Like I'm fine with them. But I've never forgotten, you know, like arm's length now. But it's like these people who I thought were my pals definitely weren't. And I think that they saw that I could do it. and I think that they saw this guy's going to do it, but we're going to try to pull him down. And I think that made me even want him even more. So I'd go back home to bed for them and be like, told you. So you converted that into fuel, into motivation? A hundred percent. Like, I'm competitive. Like, I wanted to beat them. I wanted to beat all their noise.

25:02I wanted to beat, like, my biggest enemy is here. Everybody else, don't worry about it. my biggest enemies I've been here you know and you knew that from the very beginning yeah that's so interesting yeah I started my business with my twin brother when I was 22 yeah and I remember that I was getting a lot of the same feedback which was you were too young yeah to start a business now look exactly I mean I mean with total humility but we're in a stage right now that we employ over 200 people which is one of the things that makes me makes me most happy right at least allowing and providing employment but but that stuff fuels you that stuff goes up I know that I've got a vision I've got I can see it I know you lot can't see it but I can see it and when you can see it physically then then then you'll be like oh I wish I did that yeah and for me in a similar way to you I had this very small group of people in my corner that while i saw my path i saw where i could be and a lot of people didn't see that i had this very small group of people and one of them is is my is my partner my girlfriend which she was already with me back then until now and i found that i think that's very important in the in the initial stages because i think that a lot of people see the the people that made it into something let's say whether it's in the music industry at a young age or whether it's in entrepreneurship they think that these people are incredibly self-confident they don't need anyone and you can basically tackle whatever it is no i think self-doubt is normal because it's human and we are all human whether you're elon musk or whether uh you work at um you know yeah anywhere yeah so understanding that you're going to get get those moments of self-doubt especially when you're in the initial stages of building something and having a small you know support group i think is very important yeah that's why i say my biggest enemies up here that's like the self-doubtness and and i call it like the bully in my head going you can't do it you can't do it but but i can and i know if i can beat these who don't believe it then i can be up here too and also like you say having like someone like my wife now she She's like my biggest believer.

27:29She's having like a strong woman or strong man or whatever behind you is like the best. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, man. You've worked at a Costa coffee shop. Yeah, man. Top barista. Exactly. Top barista. I would like to get your opinion right now, or more than your opinion, your feelings of those days back then so now that you are a known artist you have achieved some of the things that you've you've always wanted yeah looking back at that job and what you had to do yeah how do you feel about it um i had loads of different little like saturday jobs or like um but like like you say costa was one of them i think for me looking back again it was character building um and it was also just teaching me about like having to work with people like um which I definitely like I work with a lot of people now um and having to understand how uh people run and how people move and how I wasn't obviously in a business work in in a in the business of Costa I was making coffee but I had to understand like a customer service I had to understand all of that kind of stuff so that really like helped if I look back that helped me now if like I'm having to like I don't know with my with my band or people like that like I know how to

29:14how to explain this one I know how to how to be in in a work environment that's what I'm trying to say I know how to be in a work environment and I think Costa Coffee and all these other jobs that I did before and taught me how to be in a mad environment I suppose I would like one particular friend of mine to be listening to this piece of the conversation because he's an actor, let's say an aspiring actor. And right now he's not, I mean, he didn't have the opportunity, I would say, to work in a movie or a TV show. And that's what he wants to do. So in order for him to pay his bills, he's working in a place that he doesn't love, right?

30:01So, or more than doesn't love, he doesn't think that is obviously a career path for him. And I think your story is super inspirational for people that are in a similar situation. So you can be right now in a work environment that yes, you can learn from any type of job, but this is not the career path that you want to take. But don't worry, keep working hard. In your case, keep going to those pubs, keep showing up. In the case of my friend, keep going to auditions. And at some point, it will happen if you keep working hard. Definitely. So you've done all these things.

30:36Costa, you worked at the pubs. then you get discovered. And then in 2016, you became famous with your song, which by the way, I really like, All Goes Wrong. We have seen that there's a lot of artists that they disappear right after their first hit. I don't know if it's because they become very famous and then maybe they lose motivation or track or they lose momentum. In your case, how did you keep yourself, first of all, grounded, but also how did you maintain momentum to keep releasing other hits? I think because I've never had an attitude of I've made it I still don't think I've made it and I also think

31:21my dad he is like he's a builder and his work ethic is like unmatched the geezer will wake up at 5 o 'clock every day in the morning be on the building site at 6.30 and work till nine o 'clock in the evening and he's like 60 something now and he still does that to this day and I think I've been been born into like work ethic do you know what I mean and I love like working I love being in the studio creating new music and just creating like new songs do you know what I mean my my career has been like a steady I look at it like I look at it at football and I look at it like a rollercoaster like my career is on a steady one of them it's not going and then dropped off mine's still doing that do you know what I mean and I'm about to go into my fourth album and I'm still like I've not like even entered my ability yet like I've had to like going back to the football thing I've had to train and prepare and physically get into like a place where I'm like all right cool now I'm ready to go and I'm about to I've I've from the start to now I've put out music and I've had some good big songs and I've had some like songs that I've done okay but I've been also okay with that do you know I mean I haven't got into my head and gone oh my god it's all over like I'm like I call this space there's like opportunity to like improve on that and I also wasn't ready for to for everything to go like boom because if it happened at that point I would have been I think I'd have been dead like I was in in a in a world of like a lot of partying a lot of like other things going on in my life where like i was i was kind of like consumed by by it all do you know i mean so yeah i had to like realize what i what what i wanted and i i'm going on a different like tangent here but like i had to realize what i wanted again and i was like right cool i need to get physically in the best i had to go like Ronaldo style I had to like physically get in the best shape of my life mentally I had to be like so like on it laser focused and look at it like I was training for the Olympics I was going into like go and get gold and in the past I've had hits or whatever they are and I've always kind of I've won bronze you know what I mean but I've been happy with that because I'm competitive with myself and I know that I know that there's going to be a moment where everybody is going to be on side.

34:27In the music industry, I've always felt like people have been like, yeah, Tom Grennan, he's all right. But I know that these people are going to be like, whoa, where's this come from? And I feel like where I'm in my life now, it's about that door's about to happen and them stars are about to align. But yeah, I went off tangent there, sorry. I think a very key point in this is that steady growth. I think steady growth is very healthy because if you go from off all the way to on, that's when you don't appreciate maybe the finances of that success because you didn't build it up slowly, slowly. So what quickly comes, quickly goes.

35:15And then at the same time, going back to your point, you maybe feel way too entitled which is not your case you said I don't feel successful so that's what is keeping you hungry I'll give you I hope it doesn't kill me but a good friend of mine he plays for PSG and I asked him hey man like why do so many football players become broke? like they make so much money and you know they reach their mid-30s and a lot of them after having stellar professional and financial career, they're broke. So what happens? And he said, look, Alberto, you as an entrepreneur, you've been growing steadily and your level of responsibilities, let's say every year or two years, you employ more people.

36:02So that adds into the responsibilities that you have. And then also your workload increases. So you're spending more time at work. So you're appreciating all these different steps that you're taking that at the same time, you're making possibly more money. so you appreciate that money because it comes at an effort he said but in my case I've been playing training four days a week and playing one day during the weekends and that was my schedule since I'm like five six years old that schedule didn't change when I became a professional football player at the age of 18 I was doing exactly the same thing but just in a bigger space and that doesn't allow for your brain to process as much what is happening because your routine is the same my routine changed drastically from when I started at the age of 22 building our company you've got to grow up quickly footballers don't exactly they're just like like that pushed into it and then there's a load of dough as well with it do you know what I mean yeah we like with you you've had to grow up quickly and me I've had to grow up quickly where footballers they don't they're handed everything to them do you know what I mean yes and then when when they're not it's like what's going on now so yeah one thing I don't think I've disclosed it to anyone aside from my girlfriend but if I wasn't an entrepreneur aside from being maybe a psychologist because I love psychology but my third career of choice would have been music cool man I went to sing in classes when I was a kid sick man and I learned how to play the guitar and there was something about it that allowed me to express myself yeah and until today like when I'm in the car man I'm I'm singing I'm but I sing only in front of my girlfriend i guess that's maybe the way that i that i am or or the way that i grew up to be but i've always wanted to understand when you're facing a crowd of let's say 20 30 40 50 000 people you know 50 000 people focused only on you that energy is directed at you how does that feel like what's going on in your head like literally describe to me what's going on in your head it's such a hard thing to describe because there isn't a word for it but the only way I can explain explain it is it's like a drug that doesn't exist because every gig is different and you find this drug and you go and you take it and you're like, I've discovered something new.

38:38And it's like the best trip for an hour and a half you'll ever have because it can go in waves. Sometimes you have to pull a crowd and sometimes they're not always on your side. If it's not your show, it's a festival, you've got to win them. And then when you win them, it's like, wow, this crazy rush of energy. and then, but if it's your own gig, you've got that rush of energy straight away and you've got that, like, all them endorphins for an hour and a half. It's not a natural thing. It's not a natural thing for any human being to be, like, pushed on stage in front of thousands and thousands of people and be loved, like, and have them screaming at you.

39:21That's not a natural thing for a brain to go through, I don't believe. So when you come off stage, you're so like wired that it's so hard to sleep and not want that to carry on do you know what I mean but I've had to really like what's the word I was looking for again decompart thank you to our producer Basha yeah I still can't say that word what is it decompart decompart something like that we're ready for that yeah but I've really had to like switch that as soon as I come off stage it's like right that leave that moment there and become normal again because if you don't do that you'll end up getting sucked in by it all and you'll end up thinking that you're you're better than everybody else and you're not like this is what I do and and and I'm just this like um the only way I can explain it is like this like vessel I suppose do you know what I mean yeah but we're all in it together and and as soon as the door as soon as I as soon as I go past the curtain and go through the doors like I'm back into normal life and I'm with my friends with my wife and and that's that's that you know so how long did it take you to learn this it's only the past year or two that I've had to learn that and that's why that's where I told you like I wasn't ready if my career went I wouldn't have been ready.

40:58Now I've learned that. Like, then my training started. Then like, I was like, I could call, I've understood that now. Now I'm ready to win gold. What's the biggest crowd you faced? About 80 ,000. Yeah. And what's the biggest on-stage challenge that you faced? Like problem that happened while you were performing? whether it could be even a panic attack or maybe I don't know one of the mics doesn't work or whatever it is and how did you overcome it?

41:37I've never really had anything go wrong on stage if I'm going to be honest. The only thing I can think about is probably I was in Ireland and this is when I was taking it for granted. I was in Ireland and I hadn't been to bed. I'd been drinking and whatever, doing whatever and I had a gig the next day and I went all the way through and I carried on drinking until the next show and because obviously sleep is so important and obviously being intoxicated and whatnot and just being fucked, basically. I had to do the show and I couldn't look at the crowd. I had to do the show with my back to the crowd because I was panicking.

42:33They'd be able to know that I was just not in the best of places. I think that's probably the worst moment, but that's only happened once where I've done that and I realised that, why don't I, I'll never do that again because I've always had this, I've always had this thing of like, people are coming to the show to watch me and I've paid hard money to come and watch that show so I better make sure that I'm giving them the best show of their lives because I don't want people to be leaving going, that's a waste of money. I want them people going like, I'm going to tell my friend who has never heard about me that you need to go see Tom and because it's going to be the best show I want them fans to keep growing and growing and growing I don't want them people going that was shit I'm never seeing that again do you know what I mean I'm never going to buy that record again like I want I want them fans to keep growing and growing and growing and that's how like this world works you know in total honesty I don't judge you for this because we live and we learn and that's my view generally generally.

43:45Unless you're going to be doing the same thing several times. I mean, if it's the ninth time that you do that, then it's not necessarily that I would judge you, but I would maybe tell you, well, you might not make it where you want to make it. But having said that, I don't trust anyone in life that hasn't dealt with a problem. So I don't think you can, you can be a good businessman if you didn't perform bad in some business or be a good boyfriend, or value a good girlfriend if you didn't have a bad one. Same for a friend. Same for a performer like you. So if you learned your lesson, I think there's no shame in this.

44:18Yeah, 100%. Again, it was character building and it was one of them ones where I think I had to do that to realise, again, what I wanted and how I wanted it to work. Let's touch on the point about concert tickets being very expensive. You once said that music is not only for the rich, it should be accessible for everyone. where is the fine line between business and music um i think if everybody can if i can if i can go home knowing that i've that i've i have made money from a show but also knowing that people have not over over overspent for for coming to see me and everybody's winning then i think that's the line but if like if i knew that i was like i just wouldn't it wouldn't sit sit sit right with me because these like i think for me with music fans are like family do you know i mean like these fans are going to be with you for hopefully a lifetime and i would never want these people to be thinking that i've ripped them off or i've i've like over i've overpriced them so i'm benefiting do you know i mean i want everybody to benefit these people are coming to see me for a good time so that's their benefit i'm doing my thing for the people and i'm making what i'm making out out of it and i think

46:03I just want everybody to benefit I want my band to benefit I want them to make what they're making I want the venues to I just want the whole thing to be like everybody's winning that's what it is I think Can you make me a promise here and now when you become in the future even more famous than the fame that you have right now can you promise me that you're going to adhere to the same values that you're going to keep your tickets at a reasonable price and still wanting for everyone to win including 100 % the audience mate the audience are the most important like if I have to take a loss sometimes then I'll take a loss 100 % alright the fans are the most important and the shows are the most important do you know what I mean I'm not important in this like I will in the long run like I want to just I want to be cool and I want to be sweet and I want to be able to look after my family but I know my attitude will never change on that the show and the fans are the most important because if if they're winning then I'm winning that was there yeah man 100 % bro haha

47:27let's talk about confidence yeah i think confidence is super important in life or in any profession yeah but i think in particular in yours yeah is very very important do you have a specific technique or approach that allows you to remain confident um i think it is like not giving not caring about what other people think about you i've never thought i've never gone like i've never gone like into a place going oh he doesn't like me do you know i mean i've always gone into like if you don't like me sweet but i know that by the end of the night you'll end up liking me if you get to know me so you never had any moment of self-doubt within your career that so maybe the crowd doesn't like me maybe this particular person and that maybe impacted you?

48:24I've probably had it like I'm talking about personally confidence like personally but of course I've gone on stage going why do why why has that person not listened or something like that my confidence comes from like why again I think this is the competitiveness but I'm like why am I not doing as well as this person I why am I not like having songs like this person and I think that's my self that that's my that's my that's my like confidence there like I'm like oh man but again I've just got to keep going like listen I'm on my own journey I'm on my own um my own path like I can't be looking at other people's careers I can't be looking at other people's shows i can't be looking at other people's crowds i've just got to believe in myself and i've got to believe in like my confidence and i've got to believe in my person and i've got to believe in my faith and all that comes into it like i'm on my journey and my journey will be mine and and theirs will be theirs and we're all we all can win i mean we can all do well let's talk about dyslexia yeah how did it impact your career for better or for worse yeah I think for me like dyslexia comes like obviously I write lyrics you know I don't read books because I find it hard and I think for me like a lot of knowledge comes from books you know you can't just be watching loads of documentaries to get your knowledge.

50:16Books come from, books are full of knowledge. So I've not really got all that book knowledge. So when I'm writing lyrics, I'm having to go through the dictionary or I'm having to... If I've heard a word which I don't understand or which I don't know, then I'm having to learn that word and then go, right, cool, what does it mean? And if I like it enough, can I put it into a song? And then I've said this before, but I have techniques in the way I write and that's like, I've always had it from when I was at school. Like I'd have a washing line kind of thing and put different words on this line and how would I make them work in my world?

51:06That's how I do it. so dyslexia obviously has has has its has its um false but also has its positives in my world anyway like i just have to make it work for how my brain works um and it works for me so yeah i think it has a lot of benefits because it teaches you the art of simplifying well that's it simplifying that's exactly yeah i've listened to another podcast not ours unfortunately where the founder of soho house was explaining that um dyslexia allowed him to learn how to simplify things yeah in business things are very complex by definition and it it forced him to basically break down a problem into different categories or different compartments that allows him to understand it in a simple way.

52:01And if you understand it in a simple way, then you can develop a solution that is also very simple. So that allows you to have a very problem-solving mindset in the quickest way and the most efficient way. So I think a lot of people might think that if they have dyslexia, they might be at a disadvantage, but there are a lot of advantages. definitely in the singing industry yeah because of its dynamics right so you are you become famous at some point if you're successful like yourself you get all this admiration from a lot of different people some people they may even cry when they see you so all this exposure might sometimes end up in stress anxiety and even depression what is your relationship with depression uh depression is a massive word for me anyway depression can be the littlest thing or it could be the biggest thing you know but i've already said that my biggest enemy is in here and i have to i have to deal with that every day i don't know whether it's depression but it's anxiety which can then lead into depression and i've definitely been in that world before am i there now no but i've had to like really like find the tools for how long have you been depressed how long have i i think ever since like i spoke about me being attacked that was my first like um introduction to what mental and what mental health is you know and what depression is what anxiety is but i have anxiety every day it's like i say i've got a toolbox though that if that if i'm really really struggling i'll go in the toolbox and i'll and i'll have my my screwdriver and i'll be like right cool i know what to do if i'm feeling this let's take a step back and and use different techniques whether it's my flipping thing like i go when i say flipping i mean like if i'm having a thought of like i can't do this and i'm flipping into a good and go, I can do this and I can do this and I can do this.

54:21And I keep saying that and that flips that bad anxiety thought into like a positive thing, which really helps. I also go to therapy like, and I dip in and out of therapy, but I know when I need to go and I'll always have a relationship with my therapist, just check in and be like, I'm fine this week or I'm not good this week, I need to talk. so my relationship with depression anxiety and mental health is that I struggle with it every day but I've learned how to navigate myself when it when it comes to to that you know if you had to pick one solution only one whether it's therapy whether it's doing sports whether it's going for a walk maybe buying a dog yeah which one would you say is the most effective?

55:16Exercise all day. Exercise. Yeah. What's the best and what is the worst of being a singer?

55:26The best thing is I get to do what I love every day and I'm in this world that I never thought I'd ever be in and I get to like live my dream, you know? Like, I'm doing it. And I don't want to shut my eyes and wake up and not, and it'd be over, like, I'm in it right now, and I'm really having to, like, remind myself, like, be present, take it in, because, like, I hope it lasts forever, you know, but, like, you never know, you know. The worst thing about it is, I think, the pressure of it, like, the pressure that I put on myself to wanting to to really like succeed wanting to really like be the person in the mirror that i'm saying that i've always thought i'd want that's what i thought it was going to be um and i haven't got there yet i've i've not i've not i find it mad that i'm doing these interviews like i've not made it like you you say i'm famous i'm not famous you know i mean like my definition of fame is a completely different thing to what yours might be like yeah um um yeah like I think the pressure of it is probably the the worst part of it but yeah if you were not a singer yeah and aside from being a football player yeah what would you be?

57:01I don't know man I think like I'd have always I never had a plan B when it when it when it when the music thing happened I think I've always been in this seat. I've always been doing exactly what I told myself I was going to do. So, don't know. This. So there's only one plan, plan A. Yeah, man. For sure. I like it. Yeah, man.

57:30Let's talk about Forbes. Yeah. Forbes 30 Under 30. So historically, it's been awarded to entrepreneurs. but in the last years they've opened the doors to other industries like for example yours yeah when you received this nomination when you were aware that you were in the list was it important to you uh i thought it was funny because forbes for me i thought everybody was just like mad mega rich do you know what i mean i was like everybody everybody who saw it would bring me up and go what your Forbes under 30 like and be like yeah man it's cool I think for me it was just like being recognized by such like an important thing for entrepreneurs and for business and being recognized in that category and and and going I'm doing a good thing you know like I'm I'm I'm uh I'm on again I'm on my journey I'm on my own path and being recognized by Forbes and and being in that category of under 30s is cool, man.

58:37Do you think you deserve to be recognized by Forbes? I think I deserve to be recognized by a lot of people. I'm working hard and I'm a young man still, doing something that a lot of people would only dream to be doing. And I've put myself in this position. nobody's put me in it but myself and don't get me wrong like my label my management and and whatnot work so hard for me but the the person who has put myself here is me and so yeah I do I do I do think like being in that category is amazing and and I'm and I'm there with a lot of influential young people and i think it's important that young people are doing are doing cool things and great things and making a difference and and to be there with them people and it's cool yeah awards in general i guess for your industry can become very important winning this award or may even also not winning that award might impact your emotional um awards are important for me though they're important to you yeah it's like football you want to win the champions league you want to win the premier premiership you want to win any league that you're in and i believe i'm in the top top league why am i not wanting to gonna go win a grammy why do i not want to win a brit award why do i not want to win these things that are like yeah like they're trophies man

1:00:22when we start our careers yeah whether it's an entrepreneurship like me well actually before that was in consulting but when we usually start our careers or yours as a singer yeah we have a first definition of what success looks like for us and how do we measure it right so maybe for yourself for us back then I would like to achieve all these different awards because once I achieve them I made it yeah how did that definition of success change from when you started to today yeah I don't think if I win a Brit or a Grammy or whatever then I don't think I'll ever think I've made it I've finally made it I think these are just like these are obstacles that I'll get one but then I want to win too do you know what I mean I don't think I'll ever have like that thing of like I've made it I think when you when you believe you've made it you become comfortable and I never want to be comfortable man I always want to have that drive inside that fire inside me where I go nah I want to do more man like give me give me give me give me them experiences give me them chances and I think that's a very good mentality and I think that allows you to achieve things but at the same time life is finite right so our time is limited yeah When, Tom, when is it enough?

1:01:48Yeah. Enough. I think having a kid will change that for me. When that time happens, when that, I think, life will give me a different purpose. But that's not happening at the moment. So I'm on my, I'm doing, I've still got this thing inside me that is I don't know whether it's selfishness or whether it's just like I'm on like I'm here for me right now I'm my wife but like I need to make sure that I'm doing this but when I have a kid maybe it will change maybe that thing will be like I need to I need to like I don't know just chill a bit but that won't be until like I'm older man than old man bro like do you know what I mean yeah I've asked you this in a sort of similar way previously but I would like you to answer this question looking inwards yeah and being super honest with yourself yeah and give me reasons for your answer okay would you say you're successful would I say I'm successful in your own definition of success yeah I would say if you're looking at it in a happiness way and a family way, a friend's way and a life where they're near man, I'm successful, I'm so happy I've got such an amazing unit of people around me and I'm lucky Are those pillars your definition of success?

1:03:39Them pillars are my definition of success, yeah.

1:03:45However, a lot of people would say money is success. Or, and does money bring happiness? My truthful opinion on that is it can do, for sure. And it does. but them pillars there give you the foundation to go I'm happy and I'm and I'm so like content with with with my family my friends my wife all these all these things then it gives me the opportunity to go right now I can go and make money because I've I've got that support there do you know what I mean which then all comes together and makes a big part of of happiness man that's what I want if you were to do it all over again from the very beginning yeah what would you do differently I'd learn an instrument at an early age I would learn piano as a kid and I'd be like on guitar from early like I did them things when I was a kid but I sacked them off because I didn't understand that I would have needed them I'd have learnt instruments 100 % I'd have done that but apart from that I wouldn't have changed anything yeah Tom thank you very much for coming thank you man it is often said that the grass is greener on the other side and I personally do not agree with this nah I think that no matter what you do in life, we all go through the same type of problems, but just with different examples.

1:05:41So we all have insecurities. We all have fears. We all don't always know what's the right decision to make. And then in our lives, we have different examples that those feelings arise within us. I think you are a great example of someone that is successful. And I don't consider you successful because you're in Forbes under 30 or because you've sold whatever albums you have sold or because you have an X amount of fans or however your bank account looks like. No. I would consider you successful because you know quite well who you are, what makes you happy and most importantly, who you don't want to be.

1:06:22Yeah. And I think in order for anyone to be successful and then to be happy, the work starts there. First look inwards, you see who you are, what makes you happy, what makes you unhappy, and you're a step super close to becoming successful. Appreciate you, bro. And I believe that the grass isn't always green on the other side. It just depends where you're watering your grass. Do you know what I mean? So I've really, really, really enjoyed this chat. Thank you, Jeff. Legend, man. Appreciate it.