Can people still protest about Palestine in the UK?

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:08Today, the unprecedented crackdown on pro-Palestine protesters.

0:23I've done a lot of activism in my life. I'm not selective over what wars I'm against. Audrey White is 74. She's Liverpool, born and raised. And she's been marching, demonstrating, exercising her right to protest for more than six decades. I started with the Vietnam War, campaigning against that. I was 12 or 13, I think, and I actually fainted because I hadn't had anything to eat all day. But I remember how powerful, how powerful that demonstration was. My God, we stood outside the American embassy and the power, the power of people collectively fighting together, not physically. I've never been to a demonstration where protesters have been violent.

1:16I have been to demonstrations where the police have been violent. My fight is about freedom of speech, freedom to demonstrate and freedom for Palestine. On Sunday, 20th of July, Audrey joined a rally in Liverpool City Centre organised by Liverpool Friends of Palestine. But for the first time ever in her life, she was arrested. I was at the front of the march with a banner and a piece of paper. For legal reasons, we aren't repeating what was written on Audrey's piece of paper. But she was detained by Merseyside police on suspicion of supporting Palestine action. And I was just standing there and somebody shouted, they're coming for you, Audrey.

2:14Then there was all hell broke loose. There was loads of police all around me, pulling at me, shouting at me. I couldn't hear what they were saying most of the time. And all the crowd were all shouting shame.

2:31It was just terribly noisy. Audrey is one of hundreds of people across the UK who have been arrested by the police or threatened with arrest since the 5th of July, when the Home Office prescribed Palestine action as a terrorist group. This ranks them alongside ISIS, Al-Qaeda and the far-right group National Action. I had no dignity. My stomach was exposed, my trousers were pulled down, and I was hauled like a sack of potatoes, and I was put in the van just for holding a piece of paper.

3:11The UN has declared the government's decision a disturbing misuse of counter-terror laws. Human rights charities warn that thousands more can be criminalised. So where does this leave pro-Palestine activism? From The Guardian, I'm Noshin Iqbal. Today in Focus, can people still protest for Palestine in the UK?

3:37Audrey, if you had to estimate how many protest demos you've been in over the course of your life, what would that number be? Hundreds, hundreds and hundreds. I've no idea. I'm not looking to go on demonstrations. It's just that if I feel sincerely about something or strongly about something, yeah, I think there's loads of us. You know, we're all around the country. It's not just me. There's loads of people. I don't want to sound like a nutter, but we're all nutters if that's the case. Can you tell me just a bit more context about your family and your childhood and growing up where you did in Liverpool?

4:12Well, we're a city that was bombed, you know, bombsites are where we played. we were we've been under attack for many years you know from the British government particularly Margaret Thatcher my mother was a cleaner and my dad was a tool maker in the factory my family were very much about justice trade unionism particularly and yeah and that's where it came from family and the awful wars I've seen throughout my life. Audrey you're obviously a really passionate, committed person. And I wonder if you could tell me about which issue in the last couple of years, last year, has exercised you most politically and emotionally.

4:56Palestine, the genocide. And, you know, it's been denied. We watched it live streamed and I couldn't stand it anymore. Why does protest appeal to you so much? because it's the only power we have as individuals. Our voices don't even get heard. My voice, you know, has been silenced nearly all of my life. I've not got position or anything. I've never sought a position. But I've tried to do things in a principled way on my beliefs. I don't know if you realise this, but it's the only way. Laws or anything could change. It doesn't come from an MP sitting in Parliament. It comes from the movement below, which is the masses of people in the trade union movement and the masses of people in the peace movement.

5:51People go, what do you achieve? What do you achieve? Well, you know what you do achieve? You give a message to the government, which sometimes frightens them, and they shift accordingly. And you give, for instance, on the Palestine marches, we give a message to the Palestinians.

6:17Hurin Sadiq, you're The Guardian's legal affairs correspondent. We last spoke to you on the eve of Palestine action being banned by government. Can you remind us, first of all, why they were prescribed under the 2000 Terrorism Act? So Palestine Action have been around for about five years. They've been carrying out all these direct actions against mainly Elbit Systems, who are an Israeli arms company with factories here, and also companies in Elbit's supply chain, whether that be their landlord or other companies. and their activities have varied. They tend to be targeting property. So they get into factories, they try and close them down.

7:05They try to make it more difficult for them to do their work. But they were actually prescribed shortly after they spray painted some military aircraft to RAF Bryson-Alton with red paint, which was hugely embarrassing for the government. Under the Terrorism Act, people usually associate terrorism with groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, groups who commit violence against people. And I think it's widely accepted that that's not what Palestine Action does. But you referred to the Terrorism Act 2000, and it's actually quite wide. So serious damage against property can, under that act, be classified as terrorism.

7:46and that's been used as the basis for banning them, even if for many people they associate the word terrorism with sort of horrific violence against people. So Harun, the prescription of Palestine action came into effect on the 5th of July. What's been happening since then? So there have been more than 200 arrests, but there have also been various people threatened with arrest or told to refrain from doing certain things. I'd place them in three categories. there's one group who are people who are angry at the law and think it's wrong and their way of confronting it is by holding a placard that says words that are seen to explicitly support Palestine action then the second group is people who have the words Palestine action but not necessarily next to each other or in a way that they're naming the group so an example would be a guy in Scotland who had a t-shirt that said end genocide in Palestine full stop time to take action and then there's a third group which are people who have not used the words Palestine action at all as in both those words but have still been confronted by police I don't think anyone's been arrested but there have been people who've been told to stop what they're doing and threatened with arrest.

9:07You've mentioned that since the 5th of July, at least 200 people have been arrested for allegedly supporting Palestine action. How many of them have been charged? So I only know of two people who've been charged. Those were both in Scotland. And one was for displaying a poster that was allegedly supporting Palestine action. And the other was someone who wore a T-shirt that said, end genocide in Palestine, time to take action. And what are the potential punishments for people who are deemed to be part of or in any way supportive of Palestine action? Well, it's quite scary because under the Terrorism Act, they face a maximum sentence of 14 years.

9:49Now, I'm not saying any of these people in the cases we've been talking about or will be talking about will face such a lengthy sentence. But, you know, being convicted under the Terrorism Act is no minor thing. whatever the sentence. Arun, what have we learned about the way in which the law is being interpreted by the police on the ground? It's very variable. So for example, I think there was a demonstration in Tottenham on Saturday, which our own George Monbiot was part of, and they were not arrested. But others in London, in Cardiff, very many people have been arrested. People who have had nothing on the face of it that shows support for Palestine action have been confronted by police.

10:37Maybe using the word harassment is too strong, but I think they would certainly feel that. There were people wearing free Palestine t-shirts near a BAE systems factory and police apparently told them to remove the t-shirts because they said they were supportive of Palestine action, even though they didn't say Palestine action on them. There was someone who was going through Dover and apparently was questioned about support for Palestine action just because they were wearing a Palestine solidarity campaign hat. That's a completely separate organization, nothing to do with Palestine action. They're the people who've organized many of the marches that we've seen throughout what's been happening in Gaza.

11:20And another sort of interesting case, I'm not sure where it fits within the categories I've described, but a man in Leeds was arrested. And I think he had on a placard a Private Eye cartoon. Being from Private Eye, it was understandably satirical. And it said something like acceptable Palestine action, shooting civilians, queuing for food, and unacceptable Palestine action, spraying military aircraft with paint. and even though this was sort of based directly on something that had been published in a satirical magazine he was arrested and just for holding it up exactly yeah so this was another strand and it's satire but but it was it was another one that really kind of made people question just how egregious it all is right exactly yeah Haroon the High Court also heard about the case of Laura Merton whose story is one that you first reported in The Guardian can you tell me what happened to her?

12:15So Laura Merton was holding a demonstration in Canterbury, Kent, just by the side of the road. She was holding a Palestinian flag and she had two signs. One said Israel is committing genocide and one said, I think, free Gaza. And she was approached by armed police, who essentially accused her of supporting Palestine action. They actually asked her outright, are you supporting Palestine action? Do you support any prescribed group? I do not support any prescribed group. I support a free Palestine and the end of genocide. And she said she was there to protest genocide, but this didn't stop them threatening her with arrest.

13:03And they made some kind of what seemed to be very outlandish allegations. One was that saying free Gaza or the phrase free Gaza is supportive of Palestine action, which would make an awful lot of people supportive of Palestine action. Slash criminals. Exactly. And they also said things like, mentioning genocide, Israel, free Gaza, again, were supportive of Palestine action. And they said she was committing an offence under the Terrorism Act, which was expressing an opinion or belief supportive of a prescribed group. Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel genocide, all of that, all come under prescribed groups, which are terror groups, that have been dictated by the government, which we have suspicion to suggest that you're supporting, based on your actions here in a city with the flags and the posters you've got up.

13:57They threatened to arrest her. They said if she didn't give her details, they would arrest her. And she reluctantly complied because, understandably, she didn't want to be arrested.

14:19And so now, Audrey, you've been arrested. You've been put in a police van. You go down to the station. What happens next? Well, they wouldn't give me my glasses back for well over 30 minutes, maybe 40 minutes. And they said, because you're not reading. I said, well, that's for my vision. That's for my vision. So I was very sore and a headache and disorientated and upset and confused. And then I was put in a police cell without a toilet. The toilet was outside. I had to go to the toilet with the door open every time I needed to go to the toilet. I had to ask to go. Then I had to go with the door open.

15:01And men stood outside. You know, it was awful. I mean, I had my DNA taken. I had my photograph taken and my fingerprints as if I was a criminal, which I'm not. How long did this particular ordeal last? Well, I was arrested at 3.21 and then I think it was about 11.30, 11.40 before I was out the door. And so now you're out on bail? On bail, yeah. When I was being dismissed, they showed me my bail conditions. And one of them is not to attend a demonstration in support of Palestine action. Right. And the other one is not to go into the city centre. Okay. And another one is to live at my address. So five times my husband said, but we live there, pointed at the bail map.

15:59We live there, which was inside the area. I'm not allowed to go in. They will arrest me if I go in that area. I'd be breaking the conditions of the bail. So you're effectively under house arrest? Yeah, yeah. And I'm not being funny. I don't go out. So I can only go to the hospital with my husband who has cancer and I can go to my own doctor all by appointment. And then I was told by the interviewing officer he was called the charging officer actually he said you could go on only by appointment if you call into a shop in that area you will be arrested. Wow and how long is this expected to go on how long until your trial?

16:47There's a date on the documents there it says three months but also the lawyer said it could this could be extended and often is extended to six months or nine months or 12 months. So it's indefinite really, although there is a date.

17:12Irine, the co-founder of Palestine Action, Huda Amori, she was in the High Court last Monday seeking permission to formally challenge the British government's decision to ban the group under, as we said, this anti-terrorism law. What has the court heard so far? so it's interesting given what we've been talking about that one of the key things they've been talking about her lawyers i should say is this issue of freedom of speech and freedom of expression and freedom of assembly in other words freedom of the right to protest which are both rights under the european convention of human rights before the ban came into effect they they tried to stop it coming into effect huda mori and and her legal team and one of the things they argued then was that it would have a chilling effect it would uh impinge on free speech and i think one of her lawyers said you know someone could be potentially arrested just for wearing a palestine headscarf of kufia and i think at the time people maybe the judge was a bit skeptical and then the hearing last monday her legal team were able to go back to the judge and sort of say in a way well i told you so yeah look at all these cases yeah exactly because some of these cases have been people who, it seems a big jump to say they're supporting Palestine action.

18:29I don't think we can look at any previous examples, like when Hamas were prescribed, for example, that it had the same effect where ordinary people who perhaps just wanted to protest about what's happening in Palestine were potentially criminalised. I mean, from everything we know now, how does one protest in support of Palestine and against the genocide, given the current landscape. We've seen marches since the Israeli offensive in Gaza began, where tens of thousands of people expressed their horror about what's happening there. And I think what this does is it puts all of those people potentially at risk of arrest if the police acted in the way they have in some of these most egregious cases that I've described.

19:17And by doing that, it maybe makes people think, well, maybe I shouldn't go on the march, even though my intentions are peaceful, even though my intentions are to stop what they see as genocide in Gaza. That will put people off. And that's what when we talk about a chilling effect on free speech, that means people being afraid to express themselves, being afraid to protest. And I think that's the real risk. And I think it's something that we've not seen before in this country in relation to, you know, certainly not in the modern world where people feel they may not be able to go and protest about something they're very passionate about and they feel like is a great wrong being done.

20:00Coming up, after 60 years of protest, how does Audrey feel about where we are now?

20:19Audrey, given all that and obviously the really heavy price you're having to pay, do you regret at all the action that you took, that you went on this protest? No, it's not enough. It's absolutely, I feel ashamed that I haven't done more up until now. Have I had to wait till nearly two years, seeing all those people being blown up and murdered and knowing our complicity in this. No, not at all. I feel great pride in standing up for a few. And I feel bad if I don't do it because it's only ordinary people standing up that will stop these things. And it's got to be in immense numbers. It really has.

21:02And there are immense numbers of us demonstrating. and there has to be more and there has to be more opposing bad laws because bad law is very destructive for us as a country and us you know as human beings we have to fight to prevent a genocide to stop the genocide and the occupation but we also have to fight for our own freedom because we've had less and less freedom over the years. We believe we are being responsible citizens by protecting our freedoms within this country and stopping a genocide. That's all there is. It's not a complicated story. That is what's here. And everyone should be speaking up, everyone.

21:51Audrey, as someone who's been using their right to protest for the best part of six decades, How do you feel, firstly, about the future of pro-Palestine protests in the UK? And then, I guess, protest more in general? I think the protest against Palestine will have even more restrictions put on it. I think there will be more arrests. I think more people objection. I think it will snowball because a lot of people doing this inspires others. I think they will be building more restrictions. and I think, you know, next it will be anyone who demonstrates for Palestine. So now I think the future in this country for our freedom of speech is really, really petrifying.

22:35And we should all be petrified because you won't be able to campaign, I mean, I think, on anything. If you're effective, you will not be allowed to say anything. It's more and more restrictions. Fascism doesn't walk in with big boots and tells you what they're going to do. It starts with small things, bigger things and bigger things. And that's where we are now. We're into bigger things. And I think we should all be worried. Even if you don't support Palestine, even if you're not a protester, you should worry for our country. Audrey, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thanks for the advice of me.

23:46The executive producer was Courtney Youssef. We'll be back again tomorrow.

23:58This is The Guardian.