In short
Podcast Notes: Today in Focus
Episode
Charlotte Nichols MP on her rape trial ordeal Podcast Description Today in Focus brings listeners closer to the Guardian's journalism with insightful analysis and personal testimonies from individuals at the heart of significant stories. The episode features Charlotte Nichols, MP for Warrington North, discussing her experiences as a complainant in a rape trial and the implications of a proposed legal reform.
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Key Highlights
Introduction
- Host: Helen Pidd.
- Guest: Charlotte Nichols, MP for Warrington North.
- Topic: Charlotte's experience as a complainant in a rape trial that resulted in the acquittal of the accused.
Charlotte's Speech in Parliament
- Nichols waives her right to anonymity to discuss her trauma and advocate for rape victims.
- She highlights the long wait (1,088 days) endured before her case went to trial.
- Nichols expresses disbelief that scrapping jury trials for lesser offenses would alleviate court backlogs, emphasizing the need for a victim-focused justice system.
Personal Experience
- Nichols details the incident that led to her trauma during a parliamentary event in 2021.
- She recounts the aftermath: the psychological toll, including PTSD and a suicidal crisis.
- Shares the trauma of the trial experience, including the cross-examination that made her feel like she was on trial instead of the accused.
Trial and Acquittal
- The accused was acquitted despite admitting to sharing naked photos of Nichols without her consent.
- Nichols expresses confusion and anguish over the legal definitions and standards applied in the trial.
Response from Parliament
- Nichols's speech countered the notion that those opposed to the government's proposals do not care about rape victims.
- She advocates for a justice system that better supports victims and addresses their needs.
Key Recommendations for Change
- Specialist Rape Courts: Suggested as a means to expedite cases and provide trauma-informed settings.
- Education on Rape Myths: Proposes educating juries to eliminate biases that impact decision-making.
- Urgent Need for Reform: Emphasizes the importance of timely justice for victims and improved support systems.
Conclusion
- Despite feeling let down by the justice system, Nichols is determined to use her experience to foster change and advocate for other victims.
- The episode sheds light on the complexities faced by survivors within the legal system and the shortcomings that need addressing.
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Takeaways
- Importance of Personal Testimony: Nichols's brave decision to speak out highlights the necessity of sharing experiences for advocacy and awareness.
- Critical View of Legal Reforms: The proposed abolition of jury trials for minor offenses is critiqued for not addressing root causes of court backlogs.
- Victim Support: Emphasis on the need for a justice system that prioritizes the well-being and rights of victims.
Content Advisory
- This episode discusses sensitive topics including rape, trauma, and mental health. Listener discretion is advised.
Additional Information
- For further insights, listeners are encouraged to visit [The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/infocus).
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This markdown document summarizes the key discussions and themes from the podcast episode, providing an accessible format for readers interested in the subject matter.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOCharlotte's Speech in Parliament
0:45 to 3:03
Charlotte Nichols shares her traumatic experience with a rape trial and its aftermath.
“that I feel has been too often ventriloquized in this debate and I hope the House will be gentle with me in doing so.”
The Weight of Silence
3:03 to 4:19
Charlotte discusses the pressure of remaining silent during the trial and the relief of speaking out.
“There are two things I want you to hear right at the top.”
The Speech's Emotional Impact
4:19 to 6:27
Charlotte reflects on the process of preparing her speech and the emotional challenges involved.
“And what was it like standing up to make that speech?”
Details of the Incident
6:27 to 8:34
Charlotte recounts the night of the incident and the events that transpired in the hotel room.
“And how did you feel when the Speaker called your name?”
The Trial's Controversial Verdict
8:34 to 11:15
An analysis of the trial's outcome, focusing on the jury's verdict and its implications.
“And he's always insisted that everything that happened in that hotel room was consensual and it was between two consenting adults.”
The Emotional Aftermath
11:15 to 13:14
Charlotte shares the devastating impact of the trial's outcome and the public exposure of private photos.
“And I think it's clear both from the fact that I was unconscious in the photo and therefore couldn't possibly have consented and that that aspect of it, as I said, is not in dispute.”
Facing Public Humiliation After Assault
14:02 to 18:59
Charlotte discusses the humiliation of being recognized after the incident.
“I was wondering whether they'd seen them.”
The Impact of Trauma on Memory and Perception
19:00 to 24:40
She explains her delayed understanding of the assault and its psychological effects.
“These were photos taken both by Charlotte and her GP because she went to see her doctor just a few days after that night and told them what had happened.”
The Harrowing Experience of the Trial
24:41 to 28:00
Charlotte details her experience during the trial and the scrutiny faced in court.
“And then so you made an official police complaint and he was ultimately charged with two counts of rape as well as a charge related to the making and sharing of those photos of you.”
The Experience in the Witness Box
28:00 to 29:15
Charlotte shares her challenging experience of being in the witness box during her trial.
“you're not to blame and you're not, you know.”
Show all 16 chapters
The Day the Verdict Was Returned
29:15 to 30:45
Charlotte recounts the emotional moment she received the jury's verdict.
“And, you know, my, my character, my, my values, my, you know, all of these things, these, these are being pulled apart to attack my credibility.”
Campaigning After Trauma
30:45 to 33:18
Charlotte discusses her decision to campaign amidst her personal struggles and how it became a distraction.
“I was signed off work for two months to give me a bit of space to kind of come to terms with it, with the expectation that the general election would be sort of that autumn.”
Compensation and Finding Closure
33:18 to 35:26
Charlotte explains the process of receiving compensation and its significance to her healing.
“So you want to tell me about, tell me about the letter and what the process was.”
Advocacy for Change in the Justice System
37:09 to 41:06
Charlotte advocates for changes in the criminal justice system to better support victims of rape.
“You were speaking out against the government's plans to scrap jury trials and yet I think the plan's still passed Do you think that you made a difference?”
Reflections on Sharing Her Story
41:06 to 42:03
Charlotte reflects on the responses to her story and the importance of speaking out.
“and you said that you were worried about that you might be opening up Pandora's box and that people will be using it as an excuse to call you a liar and so forth.”
Charlotte Nichols MP on Personal Experience with Justice System
42:03 to 42:48
Charlotte Nichols shares her feelings of being let down by the justice system and her hope for change.
“parliamentary privilege you know I I have the ability to speak about my experiences in a way that survivors more broadly don't.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hannah Moore:This is The Guardian.
0:07Hannah Moore:Today, the MP Charlotte Nichols on what it's like going through a rape trial and losing.
0:21Charlotte Nichols:I propose to put a five minute time limit on from after the next speaker. Charlotte Nichols. Thank you. I've thought very long and hard about speaking today. I will allow honourable and right honourable learned members from the legal...
0:35Hannah Moore:This is Charlotte Nicholls, the MP for Warrington North. She's talking in Parliament during a debate about scrapping jury trials.
0:42Charlotte Nichols:I wanted to focus my remarks on a particular perspective that I feel has been too often ventriloquized in this debate and I hope the House will be gentle with me in doing so.
0:51Hannah Moore:As you might be able to tell, she is very nervous.
0:54Charlotte Nichols:I have spoken before in this place about having PTSD as the result of being the victim of a crime but I have never specified the nature of that crime and in doing so I'm aware that I am waiving my right to anonymity and the personal consequences that come along with that. I care profoundly about rape victims facing intolerable delays for their day in court. I know only too well what that feels like as after being raped at an event that I attended in my capacity as a member of parliament I waited 1 ,088 days to go to court. Every single one of those days was agony, made worse by having a role in public life that meant that the mental health consequences of my trauma were played out in public, with the event that led to my eventual sectioning for my own safety still being something that I receive regular social media abuse from strangers about to this day.
1:46Hannah Moore:When her case finally reached court, it ended with the jury unanimously acquitting the man she accused of rape. But still, she tells MPs, she does not think scrapping jury trials for lesser offences will cut the backlog in the courts. This is what the government wants to do. Removing a defendant's right to opt to have their case heard by a jury, if their likely sentence is under three years. That would never include rape cases. But the government has argued that it will free up space in the system so that complainants like Charlotte have their cases heard sooner. She disagrees. And ahead of a vote on the bill last week, she decided to make her case by sharing her biggest secret.
2:29Charlotte Nichols:We have been told that if we have concerns about this bill, it is because we have not been raped or because we don't care enough for rape victims. The opposite is true in my case. It is because I have been raped that I am as passionate as I am about what it means for a justice system to be truly victim-focused. It is because I have endured every indignity that our broken criminal justice system could meet out that I care what kind of reform will actually deliver justice for survivors and victims of crime more widely.
3:00Hannah Moore:From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt. Today in Focus, the story behind Charlotte Nicholls' Commons speech.
3:11Hannah Moore:There are two things I want you to hear right at the top. One, this episode contains swearing and discussions of allegations of sexual assault and suicide. And secondly, this episode is not an attempt to replay a trial that has already taken place. The man you're going to hear about today was found not guilty of all of the charges against him, and we have chosen not to name him. But we think this is a story worth telling because of what it reveals about the criminal justice system in England and what it's like making a complaint of rape and taking it through the courts. We're talking the day after you took a very brave step of waiving your anonymity and standing up in Parliament to talk about the rape trial that you were the complainant in back in 2024.
3:57Hannah Moore:How are you feeling right now having it all out there?
4:01Charlotte Nichols:In a strange way, it feels a bit like a weight has been lifted. I felt throughout the process itself silenced by not wanting to say anything that could potentially prejudice the case. but following the case um felt silenced in a similar way because given there was an acquittal I worried that waving my anonymity would just be giving free reign to every stranger on the internet to you know call me a lying slag or what have you but I I feel it was the right thing to do I feel better for having done it and actually I feel really bowled over this morning by I can't keep on top of my WhatsApp and stuff with how many supportive messages are coming in, emails and things.
4:58Charlotte Nichols:I feel I've done the right thing.
5:01Hannah Moore:And what was it like standing up to make that speech? Had it been a long time coming? Yes and no.
5:08Charlotte Nichols:I had signed Carl Turner's letter months ago now expressing our misgivings about some elements of the bill. But the tone, I think, had become quite combative in recent weeks. and there was this kind of repeated suggestion that if you were opposed to the proposals, it was because, you know, you didn't care enough about rape victims and that, you know, we really needed to be doing this to make sure that people weren't having to wait years for their day in court. And I found that really quite kind of personally affronting. It was about a week ago where I think I reached the point of, you know, this being a decision that I was then weighing up.
5:57Charlotte Nichols:But the decision to do it and actually the speech that I wrote, I wrote a few hours beforehand, almost in one kind of stream of consciousness, because I was really going backwards and forwards on what it meant on a personal level to not just speak out about my own experiences, but to do that in opposition to proposals from my own party, my own government, a party I've been a member of since I was 16 years old. It's not a small decision.
6:32Hannah Moore:And how did you feel when the Speaker called your name?
6:36Charlotte Nichols:Nervous. I had gone into the chamber about an hour before the debate and there were two of my friends who were also MPs that I asked to be kind of sat with me, Stella Creasy and Sarah and I just was doing a lot of kind of box breathing exercises and things like that to try to get myself into the headspace where I could say what I wanted to say without either completely garbling it or just crying or bottling it at the last minute. In this debate, experiences like mine feel like they've been weaponised and are being used for rhetorical misdirection for what this bill actually is. The violence against women and girls sector haven't had the opportunity to come together to discuss it and the government's framing and narrative has been to pit survivors and defendants against each other in a way I think is deeply damaging.
7:36Hannah Moore:The incident that you talked about in Parliament, it took place back in 2021 after you attended, I think, an important football match played by one of your local teams in Warrington. Can you tell me about that day?
7:51Charlotte Nichols:So following the match, there was a kind of meal and reception and that sort of thing at a hotel that myself as the MP, the mayor and other people were invited to attend alongside obviously the club and friends, family, that sort of thing. And you ended up at the hotel and to cut a long story short, you ended up staying in the room of one of the players.
8:23Hannah Moore:And you told the court, didn't you, that you had had consensual sex with him once, but that you woke up to find him having sex with you again and biting you and that you hadn't consented to either of those things. And he's always insisted that everything that happened in that hotel room was consensual and it was between two consenting adults. And that's what he said when he gave evidence. Ultimately, the jury did believe him because he was acquitted of raping you twice and also of sending naked photos of you to his teammates with the intent to cause you distress. And I just wanted to talk a little bit first about the photos, if that's okay, because I attended some of the trial and that was one of the most, I thought, quite startling aspects of it because he admitted taking and sharing naked photos of you, didn't he?
9:09Hannah Moore:Yes. So he told the jury that he regretted sending photos of your naked breasts to his teammates and asking, quote, anyone want to go with a crying with laughter emoji. And then one of his mates, one of the other players in the group chat replied, show us her gash. And then he sent another photo about four in the morning, which showed your vagina. How do you understand that not guilty verdict about the photos?
9:37Charlotte Nichols:in some respects i'll never fully understand because juries don't have to give reasons for their verdicts but certainly in the conversations that i had with the cps following the trial um and conversations with uh you know kind of legal professionals we think it hinged on what's called the intent provision so obviously photos were taken they were shared without my consent that much he freely admitted to that that part of it is not in dispute but at the time there was an intent provision that said that it had to have been done with the intent to cause alarm or distress for the crime to have occurred yeah he says uh that firstly he never expected that i would find out and that secondly he he i think his defense was you know i don't know why i did it i was just being a lad and by definition that isn't with the intent to cause alarm or distress Yes, that intent provision no longer exists.
10:54Charlotte Nichols:I do believe where the case to take place today in similar circumstances that he could not be acquitted now for that particular aspect.
11:11Hannah Moore:Yeah. So it was never in question that he had done it? No.
11:15Charlotte Nichols:And I think it's clear both from the fact that I was unconscious in the photo and therefore couldn't possibly have consented and that that aspect of it, as I said, is not in dispute.
11:28Hannah Moore:How did you find out about those photos?
11:30Charlotte Nichols:I found out about those photos about three months or so after it happened because I had been to a football match at the club and I was speaking afterwards to the manager.
11:49Hannah Moore:So you were telling him about that night in the hotel?
11:52Charlotte Nichols:But then he basically said, this makes sense now because he'd seen the photos. he said that on the bus on the way back to Warrington that one of the other players had made it known to him that these photos were in the group chat and that he and the owner at the time of the club had basically kicked him off the bus and made everyone delete those photos. and he was reassuring me that, you know, they had watched them all delete them and, you know, that they were really sorry and so on. And that was...
12:52Charlotte Nichols:After that conversation, I went home. I only live a short walk from the club.
13:04Charlotte Nichols:and I contemplated killing myself. I was on the phone to the Samaritans for hours.
13:14Hannah Moore:Charlotte, I'm sorry.
13:15Charlotte Nichols:Because I thought, well, there's photos of me now out there. I can't know how far they've gone. He made assurances to me that they'd watched them be deleted and so on, but I had no idea how many people had seen them, how many people had been sent them, where they could end up. And I felt like my life was completely over. there has been times in the kind of intervening couple of years where every time I open my phone then I've suddenly got loads of notifications or what have you you know I have a panic attack thinking oh is this the day that someone's put them on twitter or what have you every person that I walked past on my way home.
14:14Charlotte Nichols:I was wondering whether they'd seen them. It was just, it was a humiliation on top of a humiliation.
14:22Hannah Moore:Was your face visible in the pictures?
14:26Charlotte Nichols:In one of them, I think.
14:28Hannah Moore:So they knew, the lads on the bus knew who they were looking at. They knew they were looking at their local MP asleep and naked. Right. and none of them, as far as you know, raised objections or concerns until the manager says that and the owner that they intervened. Yeah.
14:55Hannah Moore:I did attend one day of your trial, including some of your cross-examination, and a lot of that was about certain things that you said and did. the morning after and one of them was an interview that you gave yeah from the hotel room so the morning after and i think it was a live interview with bbc politics it was politics northwest yeah and the defense barrister suggested to you that if you'd been raped you'd have been desperate to get out of that room as quickly as possible and i think you told the jury that you were on autopilot would you be able to talk a little bit more about about that yeah it was
Read the full transcript
15:37Charlotte Nichols:a strange one because I felt kind of completely outside my own body I think everyone kind of has an idea about how they might respond in a certain circumstance and everyone's very aware of a kind of fight or flight response but there's another response I think it's officially called form but it's this kind of once you realize that you can't get out of a situation you just kind of do in the moment what you need to do to keep yourself safe I had known the previous evening that I was going to have to do this interview and I couldn't really see any way of getting out of it without kind of having to articulate what had happened.
16:42And he was still there.
16:45Charlotte Nichols:And I kind of felt, well, if I do this and kind of appear normal to him, and I don't say anything that's going to antagonize him or, you know, make him hurt me worse than I've already been hurt, I can safely then leave and I did and I went back home and I remember catching sight of myself in my bathroom mirror and I just had this totally ghosty expression like I didn't I didn't recognize the person looking back at me and I went into work the next day I was in the chamber um you know doing all the usual things and it was that evening um I was watching a united match with one of my friends after work and when they scored he kind of touched my shoulder like you know yeah oh and both because where he'd touched I had a quite deep bite mark so it physically hurt but also the the sensation of being kind of touched by a man that was kind of the penny drop moment of oh fuck this is what happened it sounds really odd to explain to another person to say it took me a full 48 hours to kind of mentally accept it like I I was so far outside myself at that time and I was later diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder and a dissociative disorder.
18:59Hannah Moore:The jury heard and saw pictures of the bruises and the bite marks. These were photos taken both by Charlotte and her GP because she went to see her doctor just a few days after that night and told them what had happened. When the footballer gave evidence, he said he too was left with bite marks, including on his groin, but that it was all part of the consensual sex they had. He told the jury that Charlotte seemed fine when she left the following morning.
19:33Hannah Moore:And a lot was made in court about various messages that you were exchanging with your best friend the morning after, and then in the days, the weeks, and I think months afterwards, as you were grappling with whether you were going to go to the police or not. And as you've already explained, your understanding of what had happened that night wasn't immediate. And there was a message that you sent to your best friend the day after that was made a lot of by the defence. And that message said, got extremely pissed last night. and you said that you'd had to do an interview in the hotel room of one of the players and you ended that text with lol lol and then with the same friend there's various messages where you're sort of disclosing to her aren't you bit by bit that actually what happened wasn't lol can you talk to me a bit about that I think I've always had a bit of a dark sense of humor um I think I often use humor as a way of um kind of dealing with things or kind of batting it off
20:52Charlotte Nichols:as like you know my mum always gets annoyed with me because whenever I've spoken about my time in psychiatric hospital I sort of I'm often like oh when I was in the funny farm lol and she's like one it's not the funny farm and two like there's nothing lol about that um yeah I think part of it is again coming to terms with it I didn't I didn't want it to be what it was and it's almost like oh well if I like make a joke about this and I'm kind of
21:27Hannah Moore:paha about it it's it's not that but I think when you disclosed to your best friend did you send
21:35Charlotte Nichols:her pictures of the bruises and the bites I sent her a picture of um the bite marks all down my back um there were others in other more kind of intimate places that I didn't share with her It'd be really weird to send your friend a picture of a bite mark on your boob and inner thigh and things.
22:07Hannah Moore:You've already alluded to being sectioned and suffering from PTSD. Do you mind talking a bit about that?
22:14Charlotte Nichols:Yeah, so the time I spent in psychiatric hospital was in November 2021. I had some quite kind of intensive therapy and support there including starting EMDR which is a specific sort of form of treatment for PTSD that I've found to be sort of very effective PTSD isn't something you can get cured of you know it's it's something that I I live with now but over time having a better understanding of how to manage it um you know what the things are that set me off and stuff like that you know it's increasingly something that I can live alongside and manage rather than it being something that you know as it was initially kind of took over my whole life.
23:18Hannah Moore:And how long were you sectioned for?
23:21Charlotte Nichols:It was about 20 days, something like that. I was there for about three weeks.
23:29Hannah Moore:Was it well known in Parliament? No. So it was kept a secret?
23:34Charlotte Nichols:Yeah, I disclosed on coming out that that's where I'd been. because by definition there was a lot that I'd missed during that time. I hadn't been there, as I am every year, at the Cenotaph in Warrington for Remembrance Sunday. I'd missed a number of key votes. This was before we had the proxy system that's in place now. People rightly wanted to know why I wasn't at all of these things and I kind of put something out that just said, look, you know, I've been in hospital. I'm now out, but it's going to take me a little bit of time to get, you know, back to normal, kind of, you know, be gentle with me.
24:41Hannah Moore:And then so you made an official police complaint and he was ultimately charged with two counts of rape as well as a charge related to the making and sharing of those photos of you. And you then waited a long time for the case to reach trial. It was more than 1 ,000 days. 1 ,088 days. What was it like waiting all of that time?
25:06Charlotte Nichols:It was horrific. your fate is completely in other people's hands. You have no control or agency throughout the process. You're just in this kind of, this constant limbo.
25:26Hannah Moore:And then finally, in May 2024, the case reached trial and you gave evidence in court behind a screen what was that like I felt completely humiliated in the experience there was a lot of work that I'd done
25:51Charlotte Nichols:in therapy because I blamed myself a lot for what had happened and I'd spent a lot of time unpacking that only to kind of have that all undone. It's like having a bruise punch and all the all the worst things that you know you think about yourself they're going for um there were two charges of rape and one of the kind of contentions put to me was basically well why did you let him do it a second time why didn't you leave after the first one and of course you know obviously that's something I ask myself you want to think that you would you know scream and fight and run away or what have you like you know you you want to think you'd respond a certain way but you get let down by your own body and you kick yourself for that afterwards you know why Why didn't I gouge his eyes out?
27:18Charlotte Nichols:Do you know what I mean? But I couldn't in that moment. It wasn't, you're so powerless. And having that bruise punched, as I said, it really stings. There's no other way of putting it. You know, you can have all of your friends and family and, you know, medical professionals who've got a trauma informed perspective tell you that, you know, it's not your fault what happened to you and you're not to blame and you're not, you know. And as I said, they're there going. It is your fault and also you're a liar.
28:06Hannah Moore:And I guess when you're in the witness box, you're not just answering questions about that night, but also all kinds of other things that you have said and done over the years from tweets that you had sent slagging off Suella Braverman. Do you remember that?
28:24Charlotte Nichols:Yeah, that was quite surreal, being a bit like, oh, well, you once told Suella Braverman to fuck off on Twitter, so why couldn't you fight your rapist off?
28:33Hannah Moore:Yeah, that was the implication, wasn't it? You're a feisty young lady. Come on. Yeah, if you can tell her to fuck off, then you could have told this guy as well. yeah also quite a lot made of drink if you're drinking socializing everything about your life and the way you led it was put to the jury as evidence either of your untrustworthiness or looseness or yeah every every kind of negative stereotype, every kind of personal attack, every, you know, I felt like I was the one on trial. Yeah.
29:16Charlotte Nichols:And, you know, my, my character, my, my values, my, you know, all of these things, these, these are being pulled apart to attack my credibility.
29:44Hannah Moore:And talk me through the day that the jury returned their verdicts.
29:48Charlotte Nichols:So I was in Parliament. I'd come in because I had constituents who were at the infected blood inquiry and I was attending that with them. and I got a phone call and there's a quiet room behind the speaker's chair called the lady member's room and I went in there and she gave me the news and I completely fell apart.
30:27Charlotte Nichols:Another MP who's a friend of mine came to come and get me and I stayed at her house that night because I couldn't be alone. I was signed off work for two months to give me a bit of space to kind of come to terms with it, with the expectation that the general election would be sort of that autumn. and then the next day Rishi Sunak stood outside number 10 in the rain and said that we were going to have the general election in six weeks time
31:22Charlotte Nichols:I find it quite weird now looking at some of the photos of the 2024 general election campaign I'd
31:29Hannah Moore:lost an awful lot of weight very skinny I saw you during that time yeah there's there's a photo of
31:36Charlotte Nichols:me having kind of put my nomination paperwork and stuff in uh sort of standing outside Barrington Town Hall and like you can see my hip bones through my dress and stuff like I'm I was really unwell um
31:55Charlotte Nichols:I all of the kind of advice was that it was obviously not in my best interest to put myself through that campaign um I did consider taking that advice but the thing that ultimately where I made that decision was thinking do you know what I can white knuckle it through the next six weeks um a general election campaign as the candidate is a 24 hour a day thing like so I thought actually having a period of time where I didn't have a minute to be alone with my own thoughts and what have you, that it would be in and of itself a distraction, but actually more fundamentally, as it looked like we were heading into a Labour government, that perhaps out of the wreckage of my experiences, I could use what happened to do something good and that was that thought was the thing that took me through that campaign
33:18Hannah Moore:and you won your seat Labour won a landslide victory and I know you've got a letter on the side here in your office that you were wanting to show me and it relates to another process that you went through after you didn't get the verdicts that you wanted and after the acquittal. So you want to tell me about, tell me about the letter and what the process was.
33:43Charlotte Nichols:Yeah, so. Have a look. Yeah.
33:49Charlotte Nichols:Talk me through this. So I came home to it one night, kind of on my doormat, opened it. And the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority exists as a method for civil remedy. and it is available to anyone who's been a victim of a violent crime including in cases where either a perpetrator is never identified and it's a parallel process to the court process. And I've been awarded compensation according to the set list of tariffs for those offences, which in the case of rape is£11 ,000.
34:55Hannah Moore:To be clear, this letter does not overturn the jury's verdicts. What it is, is a successful claim for compensation, made after the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority assessed her claim on the basis of information from her, the police and her independent sexual violence advisor. But to Charlotte, receiving it has helped her find closure. It was this flood of relief.
35:25Charlotte Nichols:I didn't get the verdict that I wanted in court and And it's a piece of paper that I take backwards and forwards with me every week, despite the fact, you know, two years on from getting it, it's the most valuable thing I own.
35:52because this letter says we believe you
36:00Charlotte Nichols:and despite everything, it's the first thing I'd save from my house burning down. I mean, I'm sure I could ask them in that circumstance for another copy of the letter. I'm sure I'd get it, but it's... it means everything.
36:26Hannah Moore:Coming up, how Charlotte thinks the criminal justice system needs to change to better support rape complainants.
36:42Hannah Moore:Chicago, 2011. A cop is murdered. Police and prosecutors swear they have the trigger man. He swears he didn't do it. How far will each side go to prove they're right? Like it's just one bombshell after another. You know, you're like, what? The story of a PlayStation, a brain-eating amoeba, and the relentless pursuit of justice. Off duty, out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. You were speaking out against the government's plans to scrap jury trials and yet I think the plan's still passed Do you think that you made a difference? I don't know is the simple answer
37:25Charlotte Nichols:I mean there were around 90 abstentions and obviously 10 MPs who voted against I personally abstained in the hope that what I said and the misgivings of a lot of our colleagues from a range of different perspectives, whether it's people with a kind of background in criminal law, whether it's people that have got some really difficult experiences with constituents who've been defendants and their rights and so on, or people, in my case, who have concerns from a kind of victim's perspective. I'm hoping that we have the opportunity for those things to be listened to, for the bill to be amended. and of course at third reading if it's not I think there's a lot of us that are prepared to do what we can to ensure that it doesn't pass at that stage.
38:18Hannah Moore:So a rape trial will always be heard at the Crown Court.
38:22Charlotte Nichols:Yeah it's an indictable offence so it would only ever be heard at the Crown Court except in cases where the perpetrator was under 18 where it would be heard in the youth
38:32Hannah Moore:court right but would under the new proposals could they ever be heard without a jury no no so
38:39Charlotte Nichols:right and this this is part of why i was as annoyed as i was about the fact that rape cases and rape victims were getting used as the reason for driving through these proposals that are at best only tangentially relevant which is to say well if we remove some of these other cases from the backlog by the removal of the right to jury that's a few less cases that would be sat in front of you as a rape victim right so maybe you get to have your day in court marginally faster but you don't buy that i don't buy it at all and actually there's modeling both from um the institute for government and the criminal bar association who both say that, you know, at best, you would be looking at perhaps a 1 % to 2 % reduction in wait times.
39:37Hannah Moore:And you said that there were other things that the criminal justice system could do that would much improve the experience of complainants in sex cases. What specifically are you thinking about?
39:49Charlotte Nichols:So there's a really brilliant report by Rape Crisis England and Wales called Living in Limbo, which has five key recommendations for the government. But even looking into our own manifesto that we were all elected on, it speaks about the introduction of specialist rape courts. And we all agree, I think everyone does, that having to wait years to go to trial is intolerable.
40:20Hannah Moore:Yeah, for everybody involved, for defendants as well, to be fair, yeah.
40:23Charlotte Nichols:And we said in our manifesto that we were going to bring forward these specialist courts where people would have better support, where, you know, the process would be kind of trauma informed, where, you know, juries would be educated on kind of rape myths and stereotypes to help guide them in their decision making. but that ultimately rape victims wouldn't be sat in the backlog of other Crown Court cases. I mean, to me, that seems the most obvious place to start.
41:05Hannah Moore:And we started this conversation by you talking about the response that you've received to your speech in Parliament. and you said that you were worried about that you might be opening up Pandora's box and that people will be using it as an excuse to call you a liar and so forth. Has any of that happened?
41:25Charlotte Nichols:I mean, there's been a bit of it on social media and I'm sure that will continue. you but actually overwhelmingly the response has been very positive very supportive and i'm trying i guess to focus on the the positive um despite the fact that i feel like I was let down by the justice system as a as a member of parliament as someone that has parliamentary privilege you know I I have the ability to speak about my experiences in a way that survivors more broadly don't. You know, all I can do is tell my story, hope that it helps someone else and that some kind of meaningful change can come as a result.
42:48Hannah Moore:that was charlotte nichols mp my thanks to her you can read my interview with her at theguardian.com we contacted the man who was acquitted of raping charlotte and he declined to comment before we go i wanted to recommend a new guardian series the guardian investigates podcast has launched Off Duty, a new seven-part series with reporter Melissa Segura. In 2011, a Chicago police officer was murdered. Police identified four suspects, three confessed, but the fourth refused to break. He embarked on a 12-year battle to prove his innocence against a system that refused to admit it might be wrong. Subscribe to The Guardian Investigates feed or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
43:30Hannah Moore:And that is all for today. This episode was produced by Eli Block and presented by me, Helen Pidd. Sound design was by Brian McNamara, and the executive producer was Elizabeth Cassin. We'll be back in your feeds later today with the latest.
44:01Hannah Moore:This is The Guardian. you
