In short
The episode explores why St George’s Cross and Union Jacks have appeared “everywhere” across England, especially on motorway bridges and in Peterborough, amid rising anger over immigration and asylum. It traces a possible start in Birmingham suburbs via “Operation Raise the Colours,” where residents posted flags online; councils sometimes removed them, citing safety and infrastructure rules.
Key claims
supporters say flags express national pride and inclusion; critics argue the campaign intimidates and is tied to far-right networks, with Britain First donations and anti-fascist groups (Hope Not Hate, anti-fascist researchers) identifying connections. Examples include flags on lampposts, Parkway bridges, and graffiti on mini roundabouts.
Guests
Esther Radley (Guardian senior news reporter); Sundar Katwala (British Future director); Gary Young (Guardian columnist, sociology professor); and interviews with Peterborough residents and street evangelists.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOPublic Sentiment on Flag Display
0:10 to 2:34
Exploration of people's feelings regarding the prevalence of flags in England, particularly in Peterborough.
“Today, how do people feel about all the flag flying across England?”
Origins and Context of the Flag Movement
2:34 to 11:19
Discussion on the origins of flag displays, their political implications, and the relationship to local communities and immigration.
“Well lots of people will have seen plenty of St George's flags.”
Political Reactions and Challenges
11:19 to 13:56
Examination of how political figures and parties are responding to the flag displays amidst rising tensions over immigration.
“was a symbol that they could sort of embrace more, it became more of an inclusive symbol.”
The Changing Meaning of National Flags
14:00 to 17:20
Explore how the meaning of the St George's Cross shifts amidst current social tensions.
“Even that quite carefully worded response goes further than many of those in the government.”
Personal Reflections on National Identity
17:20 to 19:00
Listen to Yasser's personal discomfort with the display of national flags in Peterborough.
“Gary Young, you're no stranger to Today in Focus.”
Historical Context of Flags in Britain
19:00 to 25:20
Understand the complex history of British flags and their implications.
“about like, well, what are you doing with that?”
Current Political Climate and Flags
25:20 to 27:10
Discuss the role of political narratives in shaping flag symbolism today.
“The way it's set up, it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere good, to be honest.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Gary Younge:This is The Guardian.
0:10Esther Addley:Today, how do people feel about all the flag flying across England?
0:22Esther Addley:So we stood outside one of the popular supermarkets in Peterborough. It's on the outskirts of the village of Stanground and it crosses one of the main thoroughfares into the city centre. In the middle there's a roundabout and hoisted on several of the lampposts are St George's flags, Union Jack flags, as one lady described it, pretty much on every lamppost going.
0:48Esther Addley:Peterborough is a small city, about an hour north of London and it's a classic bellwether seat. By and large, Peterborians have consistently voted for whichever party has come into government. It's also my hometown. It's where I grew up and go back often. And in the last few weeks, like lots of places in England, it's been covered in flags. We're just asking people what they think of the flags.
1:12Gary Younge:It's a touchy subject, isn't it?
1:14Esther Addley:Why do you say it's touchy?
1:15Gary Younge:Well, obviously it's got an underlying message of, you know, people have had enough.
1:19Esther Addley:Union Jack flags are flying high. St George's crosses have been mounted onto the city's Parkway bridges and you can see them graffitied on mini roundabouts, pavements, underpasses.
1:30Gary Younge:I know some people are taking it to the extreme. There is racial tension and I'm not saying it's right or wrong but I do get it.
1:39Esther Addley:I do understand. All the people coming over, it's a bit too free-flowing. I think it's been a long time coming. Against the current backdrop of angst about immigration, about asylum seekers, and people feeling fed up about everything feeling broken, flag flying has gathered rapid momentum. Some say it's about instilling national pride. Others say it's about intimidation, to send a message about who really belongs here.
2:12Esther Addley:Not against the actual flags, that's fine. I think they look quite pretty. And if the motives was all right, that would be fine. It's not. It's done by a lot of racist thugs that are totally misinformed by the media. The government's trying to divide us all. It's worked exactly how they wanted to.
2:30Esther Addley:From The Guardian, I'm Narsheen Iqbal. Today in Focus. Understanding the flags and the fury.
2:42Esther Addley:Esther Radley you're one of the Guardian's senior news reporters and even if listeners haven't seen them in their area anyone and I include myself who's driven on a motorway in the last couple of weeks will have seen an unusual number of Union Jacks and St George's flags hanging off motorway bridges where did all this start? Well lots of people will have seen plenty of St George's flags. That's the white flag with the red cross, which is the flag of England. Plenty of people will see lots of that in the summer, at the height of the summer in July, when the England football team was playing. The England women's lionesses won the European Championship.
3:17Esther Addley:This is something slightly different. It's quite difficult to trace exactly where this particular movement's come from, but it seems that it may have started with a neighbourhood group in the Birmingham suburbs in July. Residents put up the Union Jack and St George's Flags as part of an online movement called Operation Raise the Colours. Council chiefs sparked fury when they ordered the flags to be ripped down, saying the unauthorised items are dangerous and could potentially kill motorists and pedestrians. They said, you know, we recognise that people want to express their views, but we have a responsibility to maintain our council infrastructure.
3:53Esther Addley:But to some people, the removing of flags was an affront to patriotism and that has been the challenge for councils. Reform-led councils said they would support the hanging of flags and that was something that was people's right. That Reform UK at Kent County Council unequivocally supports all those who've been hoisting either the Union Jack or the St George flag as part of Operation Raise the Colours.
4:20Gary Younge:I think personally this is a brilliant initiative. It's great to see...
4:24Esther Addley:The reform figure said it was a symbol of inclusion. We now have at least one reform council in Durham, which has started to remove the flag, saying there's a concern that it could cause accidents. And there can be serious concerns if flags are obscuring things on the motorways. And certainly defacing mini roundabouts, for example, is an offence. There was certainly a feeling of, we have a right to hang flags, this is England. And that has been one of the motivating impetuses.
4:58Esther Addley:Peterborough has seen a real population boom over the last two decades. I think the reason that we're seeing flags everywhere, roundabouts being painted and all the rest of it, I think every person that's doing that, and I've watched it all over the country on YouTube and different people are reporting it, the reason they do it is because they want Britain, Great Britain, to be British. In the city centre, which is decked out in Union Jackbunting, Conversation about flags quite quickly turns to immigration. I speak to a couple of self-declared street evangelists, Christians who are thrilled about the flags.
5:32Esther Addley:Now, I'm a Christian. I'm very pleased to be a Christian. But whether you're a Christian or not, you're in a country that's founded on Christianity, and we're cultural Christians. Richard Dawkins, who has fought Christianity for 50 years, has now said, I do not want Christianity to leave Britain. He said, I don't want it to be taken over by Islam. You know, there's a lot of things about different cultures that don't fit here. Like wearing the burqa, for instance. Wearing the burqa can be dangerous. Just to be clear, some women have walked past wearing burqas and hijabs. That should be banned here.
6:15Esther Addley:Muslims, Islam is the problem here for you? Well, that's one problem. The other problem is the woke brigade. It sounds like you want fewer people like me, or who look like me. No, no, no. You're working, okay? Yeah. You're speaking very good English. I think you're well-educated. You're paying tax. What I don't like, and what most of the British people don't like, is people turning up in boats. We know nothing about them. We don't know what crimes they've committed. we know that they don't like this country because they're trying to change it. But if I break into your house tonight and start sleeping on your couch, it's no different from breaking into a country than breaking into your home.
6:59Esther Addley:It is exactly the same.
7:04Esther Addley:How does this moment in which people are raising flags, obviously against the backdrop of what's happening outside asylum hotels, how does it generally make you feel about cohesion in the country? Do you see the flags as a sign of patriotic unity? Yeah, I see it as a sign of patriotic unity. Yeah, I see that. But this goes a lot, lot deeper, and people have got so angry about it all. And that's why it's a response to what Starmer's doing. What do you think it is about him that's provoking a certain kind of nationalism? Because people believe he's turned back on British people. Yeah, I think that's the reason.
7:45Esther Addley:They're angry. They are angry. People feel insecure. They feel under threat, you know, because of crime rising and rising and walking the streets and things like that. Not everyone is so sure. And in terms of how the flag itself makes people feel, is it fair to say that when you see it on Lampost around Peterborough, it gives you a sense of pride, unity?
8:11Gary Younge:Yeah, I drove home the other day and I've been playing golf and I came home and I said to Jackie you wouldn't believe there's all flags around the roundabout near the boathouse where they've put the latest group of illegal immigrants I'm not for graffiti but I am for people being proud of being British, English, Scottish, Welsh
8:32Esther Addley:but partly I think, I'm going to say I do think there is, I hate to say this, a bit of racism maybe behind this as well which I don't agree with However, I think the feeling that there's a lot of people maybe around that you kind of feel shouldn't maybe be here at the moment.
8:53Gary Younge:The flags appear, but I've not seen any aggression behind it.
8:57Esther Addley:No, I've not seen aggression. However, I do feel that if we're not careful, it's going to provoke some. I think it's kind of almost rallying some people to get together and say, come, we're going to have a go. and I think that sometimes makes it worse. I want everyone to just get on, but equally, I don't agree with people being allowed to roam about and doing things when they really shouldn't be here. But I think there's some areas, it sounds awful to say, but I think there are some people from certain countries, and I'm not talking about the illegal immigrants here, I'm talking about all different nationalities whose idea of crime seems to be different from ours.
9:49Esther Addley:Esther, we've just heard from some people in Peterborough about how they feel about the flag. From your reporting, did it feel like it was just pockets of local people getting involved or has this movement been more organised? It's important to say lots of people hanging flags have no connection to the far right and would not support them. But there has been some concern raised by anti-fascist groups that some of those involved in the organized side of this have got connections to far-right groups and may be connected to some figures on the far-right. The extreme right-wing party, Britain First, has donated to the cause.
10:25Esther Addley:We know that. There is one Facebook group calling itself Operation Raise the Colors that has been perhaps one of the more formally organized parts of the movement. you can see on that there's lots of people posting photographs of where they've hung flags or encouraging others to do the same and research groups including hope not hate the anti-fascist group and they have identified figures behind that who have connections they say to the far right and to far right groups so it's also important to say for people who might not be from england that the george cross has a particular history it's not necessarily a neutral symbol for everyone.
11:04Esther Addley:It was co-opted in the 1970s and 80s by far-right figures. And so it's always had an aspect of that for many people. Some of that association with the far-right has sort of worn off in the 90s and the noughties as football hooliganism diminished and as people felt it was a symbol that they could sort of embrace more, it became more of an inclusive symbol. I spoke to Sundar Katwala, who's the director of the think tank British Future. They focus on public attitudes on immigration and national identity. And he pointed out that by no means can we assume that the majority of people want to intimidate.
11:42Esther Addley:So it's not just about protesting against asylum seekers. Polling shows that a similar proportion of people have a lot of sympathy for people who are crossing the channel as those who don't have sympathy for them. And actually the long-term data on British attitudes shows that people are tolerant. You know, we lean in a pro-liberal, pro-tolerance direction. So for all the visibility of this and for all the fact that reform are certainly doing extremely well in the polls, Britain remains a tolerant country to a large part and we shouldn't lose sight of that, I think. As to how have Labour and the government in particular responded to this flag campaign?
12:19Esther Addley:It seems to be posing a bit of a challenge to the government as to how they respond. Labour are obviously very worried about reform and that many, many Labour MPs would be vulnerable to reform at the next election. But it is striking that neither Keir Starmer nor many leading figures within the Labour Party have really been very outspoken in pushing back against this movement. In fact, in Starmer's case, it's quite the opposite. When he's asked about this, his spokesman and he personally have leaned into a sense of him being a patriot. He says, I'm in favour of flags. I always sit in front of a Union Jack.
12:58Esther Addley:I've been doing it for years. And we've got the St George's flag in our flats. So you're encouraging people to put up more flags? I'm very encouraging of flags. I think they're patriotic.
13:08Gary Younge:And I think they're a great symbol of our nation.
13:11Esther Addley:And indeed, Yvette Cooper said, put them up everywhere. Even when she was asked, you know, should we hang them on motorway gantries, which may potentially be an offence under the Highways Act. She said, oh, put them up everywhere. We actually have Union Jack bunting on our garden shed at the moment. I've got St George's flags, I've got St George's bunting, I've got the Yorkshire Rose bunting as well. I've got Union Jack flags and tablecloths. So Labour have taken a decision not to push back too clearly on this. One person who did was the new Green Party leader, Zach Polanski, said it depends on the context.
13:47Esther Addley:I'll paint my face with a George flag in a football match. But he said at times of heightened tensions, I would say patriotism is actually about loving your neighbour, whether they're from this country or not. So being patriotic might mean talking to your neighbour, seeing how they feel about your flag. Even that quite carefully worded response goes further than many of those in the government. But it's interesting Polanski says that because in World Cup, the Euros, the flag means one thing and it can be paraded everywhere. And probably people take it as a celebration and as a sign of patriotism.
14:20Esther Addley:But against the backdrop of what we've seen this summer, against the hostility towards asylum seekers and against reform's rapid rise in the polls, it suddenly takes on a different meaning for some people. And I wonder if you spoke to anyone or know about some of the objections as to flag raising right now and how they feel about what's driving it. Well, that's exactly the issue, I think, for this summer, that we have seen tensions rising over immigration, partly stoked and encouraged by some political figures on the right. There are people coming continually on small boats and elsewhere. That's a major issue for the government.
14:56Esther Addley:It's a major challenge in terms of how those people's claims are processed. and we've seen protests outside hotels and asylum centres where people are being housed.
15:08Esther Addley:For the most part, they have been quite small in number, but nonetheless, there have been quite a lot of them over the summer and tensions have certainly been rising. And in that context, the movement to hang the St George Cross everywhere, which some people would like to see, takes on a different character for lots of people.
15:31Esther Addley:Hi, I'm Yasser. I live in Peterborough. Yasser, what do you make of the raising of the colours operation in Peterborough? Basically, all the Union Jacks and the St George's flags, particularly the St George's flags.
Read the full transcript
15:43Gary Younge:I feel uncomfortable about it, and I feel uncomfortable about feeling uncomfortable. I live in the UK.
15:50Esther Addley:I was born and brought up here. I love this country. So I should be celebrating flags, Union Jacks and St George's flag, etc. But it doesn't feel like that way because the intention behind it feels like it's from kind of a brewing fascist undercurrent that it seems to be gaining momentum throughout the UK. And we can see it in the government. You see it on social media in particular. You know, there's just so much more prominence of the acceptance of people vocalizing fascist views. And in terms of this summer and what we've been seeing going on in the news and particularly in Peterborough, how different does it feel to you?
16:35Esther Addley:I mean, you've been in this city for a long time. Is there something particular about this moment? You know, when the whole EDL thing happened, that was different. That was much more sinister. You know, it feels like there are only a few people, like a select few people that are climbing these poles and putting these flags up. I think of that and I just go, you know what, this is not really the representative of the UK and of people. But then you drive around and you see it on every other house. And then, you know, it does make you feel uncomfortable, for sure.
17:14Esther Addley:Coming up, why does Britain have such a difficult relationship with its flags?
17:28Esther Addley:Gary Young, you're no stranger to Today in Focus. As a former columnist for The Guardian, you have written extensively about Britain, identity and our complicated history with its symbols. You're a sociology professor at the University of Manchester and one of our great public thinkers. Now, we are here today to talk about flags. how do you feel when you see the Union Jack or the St George's flag?
17:55Gary Younge:It really depends on the context. If it's a football day and these are people cheering the incredibly multiracial England football team.
18:07Esther Addley:Flag up.
18:08Gary Younge:I mean, it's not for me, but I feel very differently than if I see a group of people trying to burn down the residents of asylum seekers and refugees waving that flag. So we shouldn't pretend that these flags have no symbolic value. They don't just denote the country that they're from. They denote the things that are done in the name of that country. The Union Jack, and I think there are two separate things here, the Union Jack and the St. George's flag. because the Union Jack flew over much of the world during a time where Britain denied large numbers of people who look like me and you their rights, imposed tyranny on large sections of the world.
18:53Esther Addley:The symbol of empire, essentially.
18:55Gary Younge:A symbol of empire. Among other things, there is a very legitimate response that one can have and that I have certainly had about like, well, what are you doing with that?
19:06Esther Addley:We're talking about the context and a slight sweep of the history then of how the meanings of these two flags, of the Union Jack and the St George's flag, has changed and warped in your lifetime?
19:16Gary Younge:I'm 56. So I grew up with the Union Jack being the national flag and the flag of the National Front. It would be embossed with the words, keep Britain white, which also happens to have been the slogan that Winston Churchill suggested the Tories should run on in 1955. and it speaks to an unhappy relationship that I have. It's not only unhappy with this country. I was raised at a time when people told me I wasn't from here, that I couldn't be from here. And so I always had to qualify my relationship to being British. And it was actually I was 18 before I would even describe myself as British. so I have a complicated relationship with this country which is born out of racism and my responses to racism it's not inevitable other people have different responses but one of the things that's intriguing to me is people say I'm not shamed I'm not shamed I'm proud to be British and I just think good for you you have the right to do that and I have the right to not like it.
20:35Gary Younge:And I'm not going to take away your right. If you want to fly that flag, you fly that flag. But if you have the right to offend me, that comes with the right for me to be offended. And I decide how and whether I'm going to be offended. And my last point is, if you think that I am wrong to be offended, if you think that all of this symbolizes is Britain and not hatred and not, then great. But then you might want to talk to the people who were burning down the asylum seekers' hostels. They make out like there was a law against it. There was never a law. You wouldn't let it hang flags up. So have at it.
21:14Gary Younge:It's not, you're not breaking a taboo by doing it. But don't then come at people who suspect your motives when all of this other stuff that is currently going on, not just historically, in the name of those flags.
21:31Esther Addley:So there would be a lot of pushback to what you've just said here because people would say, OK, well, that's your response to the flag. I live here. The Union Jack represents village fate bunting. It represents Bake Off. It's Joey Halliwell at the Brits. It's Mo Farah draping himself at the Olympics. Why won't you feel part of that unity? We're all here together and we should all be proud and come together and show that patriotism that British people are generally denied because we're too ashamed?
21:58Gary Younge:First of all, nobody's denied British people patriotism. And if, you know, you've been to the last night at the proms or British patriotism is alive and well, and nobody's stopped anybody expressing their patriotism. And my response to that is to be proud of what something does, not what something is. So what are you proud of? because it could be that you're proud of the fact that we were the first European countries to have a race relations act that we have an incredibly multi-racial sports outlook and that's a different thing than if what you're proud of is well we used to run the world and we're the best country and we're better than other countries and which is a very aggressive form of nationalism that I'm not particularly interested in.
22:43Gary Younge:My personal view about why this has happened in the way that it is is because it's a bit like middle-aged men and their big cars. A lot of this flag-waving and obsession with flags has come about because in so many other substantial ways, we are a smaller and more diminished country than we were. We're outside of Europe. Our economy is struggling. There are really limited reasons to foreground Britain on the international stage compared to, say, India or China or Brazil. Increasingly less. Still many, but increasingly less. And I think that, you know, the weaker Britain becomes, the bigger the flags will get.
23:30Gary Younge:The less there is of substance, the more there will be of symbol. And I think that's part of what we're seeing.
23:38Esther Addley:Well, you say that, but then if you look at a lot of the comments that people make on these Facebook groups, like, well, everyone flies a flag in America. It's a very powerful nation. It's true. If you go to a lot of places in the States, it's a lot of flag flying. And in very recent history, the most powerful nation in the world.
23:54Gary Younge:Particularly if you look at the American flag or the French flag, America and France, they had revolutions in the 18th century. They have founding documents. They have constitutions, whether the current president respects those constitutions or not. They have them. So when you wave that flag, you can say it stands for this set of things. They're written down. It stands for a set of principles. It stands for a certain history. It stands for a founding document. We don't have any of that. And so then it is entirely left up to interpretation what that flag means to you.
24:30Esther Addley:Some people would argue that, you know, they want to feel connected to where they live. Flags and symbols can be an important part of that. And so if progressive groups don't make use of them, then more conservative groups will. And so what do you make of that?
24:43Gary Younge:One of the problems that this particular government has, beyond just indulging and caving every single assault from the far right, rather than engaging with actual ideas, they're not giving people anything. So there is no offer. So in the absence of anything material, of something substantial, then people will go with the symbol. but symbols should not be mistaken for substance. So I think all of these right-wing people would do far less well if we had a government that was delivering for working people, but it's not.
25:16Esther Addley:Where do you think all this is headed and where do you think this conversation about flags is going in the next weeks, coming months?
25:24Gary Younge:The way it's set up, it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere good, to be honest. Not the flags, just the conversation for a few reasons. First of all, you have a kind of global system inspired by war and economic inequality that is forcing large numbers of people to move. Many of whom don't want to move, but they don't have any choice. And add to that environmental devastation. You have the countries who are largely responsible for much of that chaos, building bigger and bigger walls, both literally and metaphorically, to keep people out. But those countries are also suffering a six-decade wage stagnation, decline in living standards, increased inequality, and so on.
26:05Gary Younge:So people cast around and they look for someone to blame. And they blame asylum seekers, refugees. On the other hand, you have organizations like Labour Party or the Democrats who are offering nothing in the way of material support, Nothing in the way of an economic agenda. Nothing. Or even a vocal opposition. Well, but I'm saying they don't offer solutions to the problems in people's daily lives. And so they embrace the right wing stuff that's coming their way. And they say, yeah, yeah, I like flags too. And so we're going to have to build alternative sources of power and resistance. So it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere good.
26:49Gary Younge:And I feel that all too often these bear traps are set for us and then people fall into them. We've been talking about flags. You invite me to talk about flags. But actually, I don't particularly want to get drawn into the kind of indignation stakes about this. I see these things and I think, is that all you've got? Because frankly, I grew up with worse.
27:12Esther Addley:Gary, fair enough. Thank you so much for your time.
27:15Gary Younge:Thank you.
27:18Esther Addley:That was Gary Young, former Guardian columnist and professor of sociology at the University of Manchester, and Esther Adley, senior news reporter at The Guardian. My thanks to them and to all the people in Peterborough who stopped to speak to me.
27:35Esther Addley:You can read Esther's piece. It's titled, Don't Call This Racist. Row grows over motives behind England flag campaign. and more on this story, all at theguardian.com. That's it for today. This episode was presented by me, Nashi Niqbal. It was produced by George McDonagh. Sound design is by Joel Cox. The executive producer was Hummer Khalili. We'll see you again tomorrow.
28:08Gary Younge:This is The Guardian.
28:12you
