Trump v BBC: broadcaster to fight back against $10bn lawsuit – The Latest

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:12There's been real inflation on this lawsuit. It started out at a billion dollars. Then he said it would be a$5 billion lawsuit. And now he has said it is a$10 billion lawsuit. It's got real Austin Powers energy. Absolutely times 100 million or whatever, or more than that. I'm suing the BBC for putting words in my mouth, literally, to put words in my mouth. They had me saying things that I never said coming out. I guess they used AI or something. I think you'd have to say that if the BBC doesn't fight this case, there is very little hope that others will in the future because it's hard to think of a broadcaster or an institution in a stronger position to do it.

0:44Why the BBC is fighting back in a multi-billion dollar defamation lawsuit from President Trump. From The Guardian's Today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hoth. Joining me is Archie Bland, Head of National News at The Guardian. Thanks for being with us, Archie. Thank you, Fabian. Great to see you. So let's recap what this lawsuit is all about, because this is an edit of a Panorama documentary that was released just over a year ago that spliced two parts of a Trump speech delivered on January 6th together. The clips were actually delivered 50 minutes apart, and this was all part of an internal BBC memo that came to light at the start of last month.

1:26Trump at that time threatened a lawsuit. The BBC apologised with a very public apology, saying this was just an honest mistake. But Trump has pressed ahead with a very costly lawsuit that's hit the BBC late last night. Yeah, and there's been real inflation on this lawsuit. It started out at a billion dollars. Then he said it would be a$5 billion lawsuit. And now he has said it is a$10 billion lawsuit. It's got real Austin Powers energy. Absolutely, times 100 million or whatever. Or more than that. And, you know, I think part of what that shows you is that this isn't really a measure of the real harm done by this to Donald Trump.

2:01It's a measure of his desire to exact a kind of political revenge against an institution that he views as an enemy. Yeah. So Trump has filed two lawsuits, both of them$5 billion. The BBC was obviously presented with a choice whether to settle up in court for what's being reported around 10 million people report that that might be. or go to court for something that could end up being five or ten times higher than that. And they've decided to press ahead, contesting this in court. Yeah. And to be clear, I don't think anybody in the world expects that there will be a$10 billion finding against the BBC here.

2:36The question is really about whether the BBC considers it's worth the fight and the financial costs of taking it on. And there are very good reasons to think that it would believe it has a very strong chance of having this case thrown out altogether at an early stage. So they've already said that they will fight it. But the point for Donald Trump will partly be to tie the BBC up in an onerous process, an expensive process, a painful process, as a kind of caveat emptor to other political opponents or media organisations that he might deem have crossed him. So the Trump lawsuit is on two grounds.

3:10It's on jurisdiction and malice. And as you say, the BBC feels confident that it has a good case. Otherwise, it wouldn't go ahead with contesting what will inevitably be a very expensive process, even if eventually thrown out. So on jurisdiction, the BBC said in its apology, well, we weren't trying to interfere with the election because this was a programme that was shown to UK audiences and wasn't available to the American public. Trump has come back or his lawyers have come back saying that this could have been available to American audiences because people in Florida could have used a VPN. Yeah.

3:44And, you know, that partly goes to show how defamation law has become a kind of a global industry. People kind of shop around for a jurisdiction where they can bring a case. It was too late for him to bring a case. And that's certainly been the case here where it's been filed from Florida. Yeah, absolutely. There is still, though, even if the jurisdictional question is settled, even if it is accepted that he has the right to bring this case, the question of whether it has done him any kind of harm. There is a much higher bar for defamation case in the US than there is here. And it's pretty hard to say, given that he won the following election, given that there is no identifiable sign of financial loss to him.

4:22And given that he has subsequently been quite supportive of the January 6th rioters, including pardoning them and releasing them from prison. It's pretty hard to say that there's a clear defamation case that he's likely to win here. But again, that may not be the whole point. Yeah. And so this is the malice aspect of it, that this footage was shown one week before the election with the intention to interfere with its processes. And as you say, the idea that this ended up causing Trump any reputational financial harm is slightly debatable, given the results of the election and given that this wasn't brought to Trump's attention until the leaked memo one year later.

4:59So clearly at the time, it was not something that was on his radar, shall we say. Right. And quite hard to argue substantial reputational harm to someone as prominent as a president if they themselves weren't aware that it had happened. So part of this is the optics of Trump going into legal battle with the UK's national broadcaster. But it's going to be quite a difficult sell for BBC executives, isn't it, if the costs of settling with Trump would be far less than the costs of what could end up being multi-millions in legal fees and a court battle that could be a bit of a bloodbath. You know, it's a difficult position for the BBC to be in, no doubt.

5:35And they would very much rather this had never arisen and that panorama edit had never been made in the way that it was. I think, though, that the idea that they will face a significant reputational risk or make the British public angry by fighting this lawsuit is significantly less of a risk than the risk of acquiescing to Donald Trump over a case like this. given the strength of the legal position that they appear to be in, given that unlike some of the American broadcasters and firms that have settled with Trump, they don't have a relationship in particular that requires them to have him look favourably on their commercial interests.

6:11And given that the majority of the British public, I think still comfortably, despite the fact that politics in this country have shifted, view the BBC far more favourably than they view Donald Trump, I think it would be a really a sign of a really enfeebled leadership if they were to take that decision. Yeah, certainly at the moment, it doesn't look like they're going to. However, it could get more complicated. It could get more expensive. And I don't want to predict the future, but definitely don't think it's clear cut that the reputational risks are on the side of fighting this. Yes, you mentioned the American networks that have settled with Trump.

6:42So Paramount settled for its CBS News network for a case of$16 million earlier this year following ABC, which settled last year when Trump was president-elect. But in both those decisions, that was hugely criticised and set a worrying precedent in American media, didn't it? Yeah, hugely criticised, but also made more sense in a nakedly commercial way, because those are businesses where Trump, in one case, was looking at a takeover deal. There are always going to be interests for American broadcasters, given the way that the Trump administration deals with the media, to appear to treat him in a favourable way and to do what he wants.

7:21The BBC shouldn't have those same kinds of concerns. I think also given the resources that the BBC has available to it, given the strength of its position here, and given the fact that it doesn't face those same kind of situational problems that an American broadcaster would have, I think you'd have to say that if the BBC doesn't fight this case, there is very little hope that others will in the future because it's hard to think of a broadcaster or an institution in a stronger position to do it. But this does all come at a delicate moment, doesn't it, As the BBC is in talks with the government about its funding and future, the government has put forward a green paper today about the funding model for the BBC moving forward.

7:59And Keir Starmer has been notably quiet on this. He's been called upon by Ed Davey, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, to express his support for the BBC's decision to contest this. But that's going to be quite difficult for him, isn't it, given that he's also trying to keep Trump's White House very much on side. Yeah, it's always the pattern that we see with this Labour government at the moment. They tried to defend British institutions and British interests in general terms without crossing Donald Trump if they can possibly avoid it. And so they always have this delicate dance to do. And they're trying to do it again today.

8:29Certainly in the briefing that we've had this lunchtime, it's been the continuation of that kind of tone. The Green Paper is really interesting context here because, as you say, the BBC's future funding model is up for grabs. But there are also shorter term things here that feel like they're very relevant to this political moment. One provision in the Green Paper, which is only a consultation at this point, is that the BBC should no longer have political appointees to its board. And all of this story broke out in the very first place, not to bore people with the criminology, partly because of one of the political appointees on the BBC's board, who is a conservative named Robbie Gibb, and whose influence has been quite significant.

9:05So it does suggest that the government sees that the BBC having these kind of political leanings at the very top complicates its ability to respond to cases like this and complicates its ability to claim that it is truly neutral. It's all a bit of a headache, but thank you so much, Archie, for coming. It's great to see you. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. The new evening edition of Today in Focus will be in your feeds every weekday evening with what you need to know about the story everyone's talking about in around 10 minutes. And for more on this story, do head over to theguardian.com.

9:36Today in Focus, we'll be back with you as normal tomorrow morning, and we'll be back with you tomorrow night. This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hough. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin, and the lead producer was Zoe Hitch.

9:51This is The Guardian.