In short
Podcast Summary: Today in Focus - Who Really Took One of History’s Most Famous Pictures?
Podcast Overview Title: Today in Focus Description: Today in Focus is a morning edition podcast from The Guardian that brings listeners closer to journalism through on-the-ground reporting and personal testimonies. It helps make sense of the rapidly changing news cycle.
Episode Details Title: Who really took one of history’s most famous photographs? Description: This episode explores the iconic photograph of a Vietnamese girl running from a napalm strike, examining the controversy surrounding its true photographer. Featuring insights from conflict photographers Gary Knight and David Burnett, and filmmaker Bao Nguyen.
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Key Themes and Discussions
The Iconic Photograph
- The photograph depicts Kim Phuc, a nine-year-old girl, fleeing a napalm attack during the Vietnam War.
- Captured in June 1972, it became a powerful symbol of the war's horrors, appearing on front pages worldwide within a day.
- The image encapsulates the suffering of innocent civilians, particularly children, during war.
The Photographers Involved
- Nick Ut, a young staff photographer at Associated Press (AP), is credited with taking the photo. The image won him a Pulitzer Prize and solidified his legacy in photojournalism.
- Gary Knight and David Burnett, both conflict photographers, reflect on the impact of the photo and its attribution.
Uncovering Controversy
- In a twist, an email from Carl Robinson revealed that the photo credit may have been falsified to benefit Nick Ut, despite having been taken by a different photographer, Nguyen Thanh Nhae (Wintan Ney).
- The episode raises questions about narrative control in journalism and who gets remembered in history.
Investigative Journey
- Gary Knight and fellow journalists undertook an investigation to uncover the truth behind the photo's attribution.
- They used forensics and eyewitness accounts to reconstruct the events of that day, leading to the conclusion that it was likely Wintan Ney who took the photograph.
Implications of the Findings
- The findings sparked significant backlash within the photojournalism community. Many defended Nick Ut and criticized the investigation as an unfair attack on his legacy.
- The World Press Photo organization suspended the attribution of the photo to Nick Ut, prompting further debate.
Personal Testimonies and Emotional Impact
- Kim Phuc expressed distress over the controversy, viewing it as an attack on Nick Ut's character.
- The investigation also highlighted broader issues in journalism regarding the treatment and recognition of local journalists versus Western counterparts.
Conclusion of the Investigation
- Despite evidence suggesting Ney's authenticity as the photographer, Nick Ut remains a prominent figure in war photography.
- The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of recognizing local journalists and the ongoing power dynamics in media representation.
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Key Takeaways
- The Napalm Girl photo symbolizes the atrocities of war and raises critical questions about authorship and recognition in journalism.
- Investigative efforts revealed discrepancies in the attribution of iconic images, reflecting broader themes of power and narrative in media.
- The backlash against the investigation highlights the complexities of historical memory and the legacy of photojournalism.
- The discussion emphasizes the need for greater acknowledgement and respect for local journalists in conflict zones.
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Listening Options The episode is available on [The Guardian's website](https://www.theguardian.com/infocus) and various podcast platforms.
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This summary encapsulates the episode's main points, discussions, and implications, and serves as a resource for listeners and readers interested in the intersection of journalism, history, and ethics.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Iconic Napalm Girl Photo
1:07 to 4:10
Discussion about the impact and context of the famous war photograph.
“It's a terrifying photograph of a group of children running down a road in Vietnam away from a temple that is consumed by black smoke from a napalm attack.”
Crediting the Photographer
4:26 to 5:54
Exploration of the controversy surrounding the photo’s credit.
“It was from a man called Carl Robinson, who'd worked as a photo editor at the Associated Press' Saigon Bureau throughout the Vietnamese War.”
The Day of the Napalm Attack
6:14 to 8:30
Recollection of the events leading to the iconic photograph.
“By the 8th of June 1972, the war in Vietnam had been raging for years.”
Uncovering the Truth
9:46 to 14:04
Investigating the true identity of the photographer behind the image.
“whose name was Kim Phuk, he put his camera down and took her to the hospital.”
Unveiling the Photographer's Identity
14:04 to 15:00
Learn about the search for the true photographer behind the iconic Napalm Girl photo.
“Carl told Gary that for decades he didn't know anything about the stringer whose credit he says he removed from the Napalm Girl photo.”
Investigating Historical Evidence
15:01 to 19:26
Discover how investigators sought to verify the claims surrounding the photograph's authorship.
“They knew their father took the photograph, but they'd heard him talk about it for over 50 years.”
The Backlash from the Film's Revelations
19:27 to 21:21
Explore the controversy and backlash faced by the filmmakers from the photojournalism community.
“that it was Wintan Ney and not Nick Ut who was the man behind the lens that day.”
Nick Ut's Defamation Lawsuit and Its Implications
21:21 to 27:22
Understand the legal challenges faced by Nick Ut in response to the film's claims.
“Gary, this is so exciting to see you here at Sundance.”
Legacy and the Ethics of Journalism
27:23 to 28:00
Consider the ethical implications of photographic attribution and historical narratives.
“but who seemed to have no control over whose credit was put on that photo.”
The Debate Over the Photograph's Authenticity
28:00 to 29:05
Discussion on the credibility of photographs and the implications on reputations.
“The believability of the photograph is not really in question, but there is a question of, you know, can you believe the people who create them?”
Show all 12 chapters
The Importance of Local Journalists
29:05 to 30:38
Insight into the challenges faced by local journalists in conflict zones.
“It's just one photo taken 50 years ago, but to Gary it's more than that.”
Recognizing the Work of Journalists in Crisis
30:38 to 31:55
Highlighting the significance of supporting local journalists in areas of conflict.
“The future of journalism is in the hands of people who are reporting on countries where they live.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Bao Nguyen:This is The Guardian.
0:08Bao Nguyen:Today, the mystery behind who really took one of history's most famous photographs.
0:23Gary Knight:Scotland has natural beauty in abundance, but beyond the stunning landscapes, it's a fertile ground to build, grow and succeed, filled with people who are ready to push boundaries in the pursuit of breakthrough ideas. That's why today, Scotland is a dynamic hub of opportunity across growth sectors, from clean energy and life sciences to digital technology and space innovation. Scotland, for the head, heart and the spirit. Discover more at theguardian.com forward slash brand Scotland. This message was paid for by Brand Scotland.
1:07David Burnett:It's a terrifying photograph of a group of children running down a road in Vietnam away from a temple that is consumed by black smoke from a napalm attack.
1:23Bao Nguyen:Gary Knight has been a conflict photographer for over three decades. He's worked all over the world, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, covering war and the scars it leaves behind. He understands the power of an image to tell a story, but we were here to talk to him about one photo, taken more than 50 years ago, that could be the most powerful war photograph of all time.
1:49David Burnett:And at the centre of the photograph is a nine-year-old girl, and on the left is her brother and on the right, the cousin.
1:56Bao Nguyen:The little girl in the middle of the photograph is running down the road towards the camera, and she's screaming in pain and in terror. She's also naked. Her clothes have been burnt off by the napalm that's just been dropped on the village behind her, which is now engulfed in thick, black clouds of smoke.
2:17David Burnett:It's a photograph that really represents the suffering of innocent civilians. A nine-year-old child, nothing is more innocent in war than that, right?
2:28Bao Nguyen:This photo became an iconic image of war almost as soon as it was published in June 1972. Within a day, it was on the front page of the New York Times and in nearly every Western newspaper and magazine shortly afterwards.
2:43Gary Knight:In many ways, it became one of the lasting images of the war to the world, right? And it becomes ingrained in our community of, like, what happened there.
2:54Bao Nguyen:This is filmmaker Bao Nguyen. He grew up the son of Vietnamese refugees in the US.
3:00Gary Knight:My parents lived in Guangxi, which is near the 17th parallel, which saw some of the most intense fighting. My father was a soldier, and my mom was around the same age that Kim Phuok was in the photograph.
3:14Bao Nguyen:The photo didn't just go on to become one, if not the most famous war photograph of all time. It also made the career of the man credited with taking it.
3:25David Burnett:Ladies and gentlemen, Nick Utz. Nick Utz, the photographer behind the famous photograph.
3:30Bao Nguyen:Nick Utz was a young staff photographer at the Associated Press. Do you still remember that day vividly? I always remember that picture. The picture won him two of the most prestigious prizes in photojournalism, the World Press Photo Award and the Pulitzer Prize. And the fame and the accolades that followed secured his legacy in the history of war reporting.
3:51David Burnett:We took a photograph. I saw it today, just a little while ago. It was presented to me in such an incredible, important photograph.
4:00Gary Knight:It showed the world the indescribable horrors of the war. There were very few Vietnamese-American photojournalists that were well-known, and Nick was obviously on the top of that list, having won a Pulitzer Prize and a World Press Photo Award. And so that photo meant a lot to me and my community, and that achievement meant a lot.
4:25Bao Nguyen:And then, more than five decades after the Napalm Girl photo was published, an email pinged into Gary's inbox. It was from a man called Carl Robinson, who'd worked as a photo editor at the Associated Press' Saigon Bureau throughout the Vietnamese War.
4:43David Burnett:And in that email, he told me that he had deliberately, at the instruction of his boss, changed the name, the accreditation of the photograph, from a stringer's name to a staff photographer's name, to Nick Hurt's name.
5:05Bao Nguyen:When Gary says Stringer, he's talking about a freelancer, a photographer making a living selling photographs to news agencies. And the idea that one of the most famous anti-war images of all time could have been deliberately credited to the wrong photographer was enough for Gary, Bao and a team of investigative reporters to start digging around.
5:29David Burnett:So that's where this journey started, really.
5:37Bao Nguyen:At a time when local journalists and photographers in war zones across the world are being killed in greater numbers than ever before, the story of who really took the Napalm Girl photo is about who controls the narrative of world events. Who gets remembered or forgotten? From The Guardian, I'm Annie Kelly. Today in Focus. who really took the most famous war photo of all time and why it matters 50 years later.
6:14Bao Nguyen:By the 8th of June 1972, the war in Vietnam had been raging for years.
6:19Gary Knight:Even as late as 1970, when I ended up going, it was still the biggest story in the world on an ongoing basis.
6:27Bao Nguyen:David Burnett was one of a generation of young photographers drawn to the front lines to make their name covering the conflict.
6:35Gary Knight:And there's no doubt that photography played a huge role in how things were seen back home and around the world. In particular, that day in Trang Bang, when the Vietnamese Air Force plane dropped the napalm, and from which that day comes the famous napalm girl photo.
7:01Bao Nguyen:That day, David was on assignment for the New York Times, and was heading away from Saigon, towards the front line, when he heard something was happening in a little village called Trang Bang.
7:12Gary Knight:As the Sky Raiders moved in, we could see that their bombs were falling very close indeed to the South Vietnamese positions. And when we got there, like many of the journalists who had just hopped in cars and gone looking for what was happening that day in the war, we saw a bunch of our colleagues there kind of lined up on a concertina wire across the road just to keep people from getting too close to the fighting. And we were a few hundred yards outside this little village. In the distance, we could see South Vietnamese troops frantically scrambling across the highway for safety. As we watched, they gestured to a group of civilians to join them.
7:50Gary Knight:And we could hear the firing that was going on. You could hear that there was fighting going on. And these two Vietnamese Air Force Sky Raider planes came in. They dropped four canisters of napalm on those civilians. Dropped their napalm. and the people who had gathered what they thought was the safe place in the village, many of whom were injured, they came running out of where they had taken refuge through a cemetery, which was right on the edge of the village. And then they came back towards the road where we were. We were, I don't know, maybe 300 or 400 yards outside the village, maybe a little farther.
8:36Gary Knight:I was standing right where Nick was and another reporter, an American guy named Alex Shimkin, and both Alex and Nick realized immediately what had happened. And they began running down the road, and I just, that look on his face, I still see it. My memory is that the two of them were the only real press people who were running down the road towards where the refugees were running out of the village. Almost the first person we saw was a little girl aged about nine running up the road. She hadn't got any clothes on. She'd presumably torn them off when they caught fire. everybody else it was another couple of minutes before we all kind of went past that row of concertina wire and started mingling down down the road looking for pictures and and recording what was going on i just can't imagine anyone else could have made that picture other than nick
9:46Bao Nguyen:Nick Ut always said that after he took the photo of the little girl, whose name was Kim Phuk, he put his camera down and took her to the hospital. After that, he said he went to the Associated Press office in Saigon, where his film of what happened that day would be processed. David was there too.
10:03Gary Knight:I had come back because working for the New York Times, I wanted to get my films processed, choose a couple of pictures, make prints, and then radio photo them directly to the New York Times.
10:15Bao Nguyen:Also in the office were the Associated Press photo editors, Carl Robinson and his boss, Horst Fass.
10:22Gary Knight:Well, there's no doubt that Horst Fass was, wherever he went, he was the chief. He was not a wallflower who just kind of went along. He decided how things were going to be, and that was it. And we're looking at this print. when it was over and they had sent the picture out and Horace said to Nick Ott, you do good work today, Nick Ott.
10:50Bao Nguyen:But this is just David's version of events. When, decades later, Carl Robinson got in touch with Gary Knight, he had very different memories of what happened in the AP offices that day.
11:02David Burnett:What he said happened is that the film came in from a stringer, along with Nick's film and I think the film of other photographers, that it was processed in the dark room. Horst Fass came into the dark room, into the photo room from his lunch and looked at the photographs that had been laid out on the table. Carl and others in the Bureau had selected a photograph of Kim Fook that was shot from the side that didn't show full frontal nudity, which was against the policy of AP. Horst said, no, you know, this this photograph, the photograph we all know, the photograph we're talking about is the photograph we'll put on the wire.
11:47David Burnett:And then it was given back to Carl, who sat at his typewriter and typed on some paper, which was sticky and would be stuck to the bottom of the print. the caption and certain information, the dates, the location, etc. And Carl said that Horst came up to him, stood over his shoulder. As Carl was looking in his logbook for the name of the stringer to type it onto the caption, Horst said to him, no, put Nickut's name on it. And Carl, without missing a beat, did put Nickut's name on it. The photograph was then given to the courier who took it over on a scooter to Radio Saigon where it was transmitted to AP.
12:32Bao Nguyen:What is some of your thinking behind why he might have instructed Carl to change the photo credit as Carl has alleged?
12:44David Burnett:Horst knew the value of this photograph and he communicated that to Hal Buell, his boss in New York and he wrote to Hal Buell and said I'm sending you a photograph that will become an icon of all time trust me and urged him to publish it despite the fact that it showed full frontal nudity so Horst knew very well what he was dealing with with this photograph and I think he wanted to make sure that that went to an AP staffer. And it wasn't just any AP staffer. Nick's brother had been killed on assignment for Horst earlier in the war, very, very brutally. And Nick had been hired to ensure that the family continued to have an income and were secure.
13:31David Burnett:And Horst felt a great deal of loyalty to the family and to Nick. And I think he understood that this would be something that wasn't only great for AP, but it would be great for Nick.
Read the full transcript
13:43Bao Nguyen:We'll never know how Horst Fass would have responded to Karl Robinson's allegations, or what was going through his mind. He died in 2012 without ever publicly speaking about what happened that day in June 1972. But if what Karl says was true, and that Nick Utt didn't take the photo. Then who did? Carl told Gary that for decades he didn't know anything about the stringer whose credit he says he removed from the Napalm Girl photo. Then quite by chance at a reunion of Vietnamese journalists in 2010 Carl's wife sought him out to tell him that someone had just given her a name, Nguyen Thanh Nhae. And after Gary learnt this he teamed up with a Vietnamese journalist Levan, who tracked down Wintan Ney to a small remote village.
14:36David Burnett:He just confirmed that that was his photograph and that he was there and he was shocked actually that anybody had bothered to come and find him. He thought he would die with his story never told and that moment was also very moving for his daughter Janie because she and her brother had heard Ney's story, you know, for decades. They'd grown up with it. They knew their father took the photograph, but they'd heard him talk about it for over 50 years. And they were just trying to encourage him to stop talking about it and to get over it and to move on. And it was clear to them when we came to see him how important this still was to him.
15:20Bao Nguyen:Wintan Ney is in his 80s now. It turned out that after the war, he'd moved to California, where he'd raised his family and worked processing film for Hollywood movies. He told Gary that he sold the Napalm Girl photograph to the Associated Press for$20 and a print. And the fact that he was never credited had haunted him for decades.
15:42David Burnett:He explained, you know, that he'd seen somebody else for 50 years receive all the plaudits, receive medals, receive every prize available in journalism, meet the Queen of England, the Pope, travel around the world, being hailed and recognised as the author of this incredible photograph. And that's really difficult to watch and very painful.
16:24Bao Nguyen:And once you'd found him, it's kind of like that's where the hard work began, isn't it? Because you'd found him, he'd claimed he also took the photo, it backed up what Carl had said. What then did you need to do to try and stand up those claims and to try and get the hard evidence? We're talking about a photo that was obviously taken 50 years ago before all of the kind of modern technology that we would now be instantly able to access to give us that proof.
16:52David Burnett:It was really important for us to, you know, treat everybody in this story with respect and with dignity. That includes and especially Nickhood. And it includes AP. So, you know, we set about interviewing people, people who were there. A number of people who were there declined to be interviewed, but a number of people did. And so we said about interviewing eyewitnesses, but, you know, memory is tricky. My memory is tricky about things that happened last year. When you're asking people to recall in detail things that happened 50 odd years ago, it's hard.
17:32Bao Nguyen:Gary says he tried every avenue to stand up Wintan Ney's claims. Eventually, they went to an independent forensics investigations team called Index. Gary asked them to analyse all of the evidence they'd found, plus all the available archive photographs and footage from that day in Trangbang.
17:51David Burnett:They were able to piece together the scene using, you know, satellite photograph that was taken by the Americans in 1972. Of course, we have all the journalist photographs, the photographer's photographs and all of the film. So they were able to reconstruct the scene and using the still photographs and the film made by other journalists, we were able to, or they were able to situate all of the key people who were there that day and we can see where they were at various moments.
18:22Bao Nguyen:In Gary and Bao's documentary, they spend a lot of time showing the work that Index did, creating 3D renderings and digital reconstructions of the children running down the road towards the journalists in Trang Bang.
18:36David Burnett:And what that shows is that Nick Burt was a significant way away from where he needed to be to have taken the photograph. And it shows who was close enough to have taken the photograph. And of the people who were close enough to have taken the photograph, the only one who claims to have taken the photograph and the only one who is identified by other eyewitnesses as taking the photograph is Nate.
19:16Bao Nguyen:It was enough for Index to conclude that, in their view, it was almost impossible for Nick Ut to have taken the Napalm Girl photo. And it was enough for Gary to make his own conclusion at the end of his investigation, that it was Wintan Ney and not Nick Ut who was the man behind the lens that day. What about Nick Ut and the AP?
19:41David Burnett:So we approached Nick, I think it's 16 times, you know, through WhatsApp and Instagram and a Facebook messenger and also through mutual friends. But he declined to talk to us and has only responded through his lawyer, to my knowledge, since the film came out. And AP, we went to AP during the process of the investigation. We asked them to collaborate with us. I thought, well, there's a chance that they might be open and willing to examine this with us. But that proved not to be the case. And we had to proceed without them, which is regrettable.
20:29Bao Nguyen:Coming up, Gary and Bale's film comes out and the backlash begins.
20:43Gary Knight:Scotland has natural beauty in abundance, but beyond the stunning landscapes, it's a fertile ground to build, grow and succeed, filled with people who are ready to push boundaries in the pursuit of breakthrough ideas. That's why today, Scotland is a dynamic hub of opportunity across growth sectors. From clean energy and life sciences to digital technology and space innovation. Scotland. For the head, heart and the spirit. Discover more at theguardian.com forward slash brand Scotland. This message was paid for by Brand Scotland.
21:20It's meta.
21:21David Burnett:It's meta. It's meta journalist.
21:23Bao Nguyen:I love that. Gary, this is so exciting to see you here at Sundance. How does it feel?
21:29David Burnett:Well, it's a mixture of sort of excitement, anxiety, to be honest. You know, you create a...
21:34Bao Nguyen:Gary Mbao's film of the investigation, The Stringer, premiered at the Sundance Film Festival in January last year.
21:41Gary Knight:I hope that, you know, audiences understand, I hope the audience understand that listening is so important...
21:47Bao Nguyen:Also in the audience was Win Tan Nei, who received a standing ovation. And despite the fact the film wasn't even out yet, and barely anyone had seen it, it had already become hugely controversial.
22:01David Burnett:Here's where it gets really freaking weird. Essentially, they're saying that Nick Utt wasn't the photographer. Who took the photograph? We want to be accurate.
22:11Bao Nguyen:Very emotional and dramatic. And it really, as a journalist, it gets you thinking about who owns the story and how do these things happen. Both Gary and Bao said they had been bracing themselves for a backlash. but the force of the vitriol they faced by some in the photojournalism world was a shock, as friends and colleagues of Nickert came out to publicly defend him and denounce Gary's investigation. Because although Gary wasn't claiming his findings were conclusive, they did have consequences. In line with our judging procedures and with our values,
22:48David Burnett:we cannot, with the amount of doubt that exists, continue to say that the photo is attributed to Nick Utt.
22:56Bao Nguyen:World Press Photo, who given Nick Utt their highest accolade in 1973, suspended the attribution of the photograph to him. After this was announced, over 400 photographers, including some of photojournalism's biggest names like Don McCullen, wrote to World Press Photo to protest and demand Nick Utt's name be reinstated. Kim Phuc, the girl in the photograph, has criticised the film's findings as well, calling it an outrageous and false attack on Nick Oot. The publicity surrounding the film prompted the Associated Press, Nick Oot's employer of nearly five decades, to launch their own internal investigation.
23:39Bao Nguyen:And if I'm honest, the report they released at the end, it's a slightly confusing read. It said that after reviewing all of the evidence, that it could not definitively prove that Nick Ut did take the Napalm Girl photo as credited, but that it was still possible. And that none of the material it had available proved that anyone else, apart from Nick Ut, did. I think what is interesting in the AP report is that they established that the camera Nick has said for 50 years that he used to take the photograph could not have taken that photograph.
24:22David Burnett:That the negative of the Napalm Girl photograph was made by a Pentax. A subsequent forensic report establishes that Nick wasn't carrying a Pentax. so so i think you know there's a lot in the ap report that actually we found very helpful also if ap um were certain who took that photograph they would have said so and they didn't you know they presented a lot of evidence that that proved that nick's story is not sound uh and they said that we are open to changing the accreditation um and i think that's that's uh they would have not said that if they were certain who did take the photograph and that it was Nick Ut.
25:05Bao Nguyen:Just last week, Nick Ut filed a defamation lawsuit in France against Gary Knight and Netflix, seeking 100 ,000 euros in damages, which Nick Ut says he will donate to charity. Through his lawyer, he rejected our request for an interview, but he did send a statement that the film has, quote, caused great pain to me and my family. These accusations strike at the very core of who I am, my entire career has been built on telling the truth, often at great personal risk. The legal papers themselves don't offer evidence that Nick Utt took the Napalm Girl photo, but they state that the film, quote, portrays Nick Utt as a shameless liar who over the years has skillfully cultivated a narrative that he knew to be false and a stolen attribution and that it is, quote, seriously damaging his honour, professional integrity and reputation as a world-renowned photojournalist.
26:20Bao Nguyen:Gary says all of his work investigating the origins of the Napalm Girl photo was based based on his belief that if a fellow photographer had been erased from history, his name scrubbed from an image he took by people who wielded power when he had none, then history should be corrected. And whatever the real truth of the origins of this photo, the power imbalance that Gary says played out between local stringers in the war in Vietnam more than 50 years ago does still exist today, where Western media organisations and the largely Western journalists they employ are still the ones dictating the images and the words that become the official version of history.
27:08Bao Nguyen:And there is another uncomfortable truth about Gary's film, that by trying to set the record straight, he's also casting doubt on the credibility of another local Vietnamese journalist, Nick Ut, who was also there that day in the AP office. but who seemed to have no control over whose credit was put on that photo. David Burnett has been one of the most vocal critics of Gary's film and defender of Nick Ut and his legacy.
27:37Gary Knight:You know, Nick has kind of gone through a tough time because it's a very tough thing when somebody tries to out you publicly on a case like this. And amongst those of us who are in that world, whether you're a writer or a photographer, or, you know, you want to be credited for what you've done, and that's as it ought to be, I think. The believability of the photograph is not really in question, but there is a question of, you know, can you believe the people who create them? And I think for that reason that there is a lot of interest and that there is a lot of defense amongst those of us who really think this is kind of an unfair attack on somebody's reputation.
28:26Gary Knight:And whether or not there will ever be a real resolution of this argument, I feel bad that he's been kind of dragged through this in an unfortunate way. But at the same time, I feel nothing but sympathy and respect for Mr. Nay. I just really don't think he was in a place to take that photograph, that's all.
28:50Bao Nguyen:David said he did watch the film when it was released on Netflix a couple of weeks before our interview and he saw all the evidence that Gary and his team had to back up their assertions but it just didn't convince him to reconsider his memories of that day
29:05Gary Knight:Yeah, I mean, I saw what the index people did I just don't buy it As I remember it, and you can say maybe eyewitnesses aren't the greatest source of truth, although in my memory, I just don't see how anyone could have shot that picture that wasn't down the road very quickly.
29:55Bao Nguyen:It's just one photo taken 50 years ago, but to Gary it's more than that. For him, this is his attempt to try and redress that power imbalance and put the spotlight back onto those risking their lives to tell the world what's happening in their own countries and to their own communities.
30:15David Burnett:I was watching an interview a couple of days ago with a Palestinian journalist from Gaza. And in the interview, he said, you know, I wish, we wish that Western journalists have been allowed into Gaza, not because they would have done a better job, but solely because their work would never have been challenged in the way that ours has, right? The future of journalism is in the hands of people who are reporting on countries where they live. We would not know what had happened and what had taken place in Gaza if it wasn't for Gazan journalists. And over 200 media workers have been killed in Gaza since October the 7th.
30:58David Burnett:And that's more than the total number of journalists who were killed in the US Civil War, the First World War, the Second World War, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. More than all of those wars combined. and those who didn't lose their lives have been actively undermined and their work has been challenged uh the veracity of their work has been challenged and one of the reasons i believe that foreign journalists weren't allowed in there is is so that could happen so that that work could be undermined and those the truth that they were telling you know could be challenged and and so i I think it is an existentialist issue for those of us who live outside of territories like Gaza, countries like Myanmar and Congo, that we support and acknowledge the work of local journalists.
31:55David Burnett:Because if it's not for them, we wouldn't have any idea what is going on in these places. We need to treat them the way that we treat ourselves in this profession. And we don't. We treat them like second class individuals.
32:21Bao Nguyen:That was Gary Knight, Bao Nguyen and David Burnett. My thanks to them. You can watch Gary and Bao's film, The Stringer, on Netflix. This episode was produced and sound designed by Alex Zaytak and presented by me, Annie Kelly. The executive producer was Hommie Khalili. Special thanks too to Bim Arrawumni We'll be back in your feeds this afternoon with the latest
32:52David Burnett:This is The Guardian
33:03Gary Knight:Scotland has natural beauty in abundance But beyond the stunning landscapes, it's a fertile ground to build, grow and succeed, filled with people who are ready to push boundaries in the pursuit of breakthrough ideas. That's why today, Scotland is a dynamic hub of opportunity across growth sectors. From clean energy and life sciences to digital technology and space innovation. Scotland. For the head, heart and the spirit. Discover more at theguardian.com forward slash brand Scotland. This message was paid for by Brand Scotland.
