In short
The episode explains a secret UK government scheme to relocate thousands of Afghans after a 2022 Ministry of Defence data leak. Topic: In August 2021, after Kabul fell, the UK built a spreadsheet database of about 18,700 Afghan ARAP asylum/resettlement claims tied to work with or for British forces. In February 2022, a defence official accidentally emailed the database outside authorised systems, potentially exposing personal data and endorsements (including people linked to MI6 and SAS). The leak resurfaced in a Facebook group in summer 2023, prompting a High Court “super injunction” to keep both the breach and a related secret Afghan Response Route (ARR) from public and parliamentary scrutiny.
Key claims
the risk to the list was later assessed as lower, so the injunction was lifted in 2024; ARR cost hundreds of millions to about £850m for 6,900 people, with contested total costs up to billions.
Notable examples
Marzia Babakir-Hell received frantic calls from contacts warning of the email; she says Taliban targeting continues.
Guests
Helen Pidd (host) and Dan Sabbat (Guardian Defence and Security Editor). Also featured: Marzia Babakir-Hell, an Afghan former judge and women’s rights advocate who fled after Taliban assassination attempts and now advises threatened Afghan women judges.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Secret Scheme for Afghan Relocation
0:09 to 3:10
Discussion of the UK government's secretive plan to bring thousands of Afghans to safety.
“My name is Marzia Babakir-Hell and I'm a former judge and advocate from Afghanistan.”
Marzia's Story and the Impact of Data Leak
3:10 to 4:30
Marzia Babakir-Hell's firsthand experience and the consequences of the data leak on Afghans.
“The spreadsheet, the super injunction, and the secret relocation scheme the government didn't want you to know about.”
The Data Leak Incident Explained
4:30 to 6:10
A detailed breakdown of the data leak and its implications for those seeking asylum in the UK.
“who were still trying to apply to come to the UK around about 18 ,000, 18 ,700.”
Reactions and Government Response
6:10 to 7:50
The government's response to the data leak and the establishment of a secret relocation scheme.
“And we've also learned this week that it wasn't just their details, but also details of people who had endorsed their applications.”
The Super Injunction and Its Consequences
7:50 to 12:00
The implications of a super injunction that prevented public discussion of the relocation scheme.
“And then someone on the Facebook group raised the alarm by contacting James Heapy, who was the Armed Forces Minister at the time.”
Political Fallout and Future Implications
12:00 to 14:00
The political ramifications of the super injunction and the eventual lifting of it.
“The existence scheme is not told to the public.”
The Lifting of the Super Injunction
14:00 to 17:19
Explains the circumstances leading to the lifting of the super injunction regarding the Afghan relocation scheme.
“But the Tories also told the Speaker, Lindsay Hoyle, but didn't tell Keir Starmer or any other Labour figures.”
Cost and Impact of the Secret Scheme
17:20 to 19:27
Discusses the financial implications and the number of Afghans affected by the secret relocation scheme.
“And we'll come on to just how much it may have cost because that is highly contested.”
Political Ramifications and Accountability
19:28 to 21:47
Explores the political fallout from the relocation scheme and the accountability of past government officials.
“although there are other figures around that suggest it might have cost more than that.”
Reactions and Future Implications
21:48 to 27:20
Analyzes the reactions from political opponents and the potential impact on future immigration policies.
“hour by hour about what happened and what the ramifications are.”
Show all 15 chapters
Voices from Afghanistan: The Risks Faced
27:21 to 28:00
Features Marzia discussing the ongoing threats faced by Afghans on the leaked list and the reality of their situation.
“because the British today, under two successive governments for a long period of time, didn't want this story told.”
The Risk of Persecution for Afghan Allies
28:00 to 29:29
Afghans who aided the UK face ongoing threats from the Taliban.
“Marzia, you've told us already of how Afghans received this frankly terrifying email from the Ministry of Defence on Monday, warning them that their personal data may have leaked almost three years ago in August 2022.”
Debate on Immigration and Public Safety
29:30 to 31:24
Discussion about the implications of the data breach and UK immigration fears.
“And the Taliban have allegedly claimed that they got hold of the database shortly after it was put on Facebook.”
The Contributions of Resettled Afghans
31:25 to 32:44
Highlighting the positive impact of Afghan resettlement in the UK.
“when they resettle, they work hard and they contribute.”
Marzia Baba-Kakeil's Call to Action
32:45 to 33:00
Marzia urges the government to protect Afghans post-breach.
“Thank you so much for highlighting this issue and I'm really grateful on behalf of the people they face challenges.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is The Guardian.
0:09Today, the secret government scheme to bring thousands of Afghans to Britain.
0:22My name is Marzia Babakir-Hell and I'm a former judge and advocate from Afghanistan. Marzia is a women's rights advocate and specialised in family law, before she was forced to flee Afghanistan in 2008, after the Taliban tried to assassinate her. She claimed asylum in the UK and rebuilt her life in Oldham in Greater Manchester. Since the fall of Kabul in August 2021, she's been helping other female judges targeted by the Taliban and talks daily to Afghans fearing for their lives. On Monday, she started to receive frantic calls from contacts in Afghanistan, who'd received an email out of the blue from the British government.
1:02Some of my colleagues, they received an email from the Ministry of Defence about the leak of the data. The email was sent to Afghans who'd applied for asylum in the UK, because of their work for or with the British Armed Forces. It told them of what it called a data loss incident that took place in 2022 under the previous government. They really worried. And not just my colleagues. Some of the people I know in Afghanistan, they work with the British government, British army, and they called me. And the man, he worked with the government. His wife was crying. The email told them that asylum applications had been leaked and that some of their personal data may have been compromised.
1:49They were advised not to take phone calls or respond to messages or emails from unknown contacts, to limit access to their social media, to potentially close their accounts, and to only go online via a VPN or private connection. Understandably, they were terrified. The problem, no one knows who is in this list. That's more shocking. We don't know which list is leaked. and who will be in this list. 24 hours later, John Healy, the Defence Secretary, stood up in Parliament and delivered an apology for probably the biggest and most expensive data leak in British government history. With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on a significant data protection breach from February 2022 relating to the Afghan relocations and assistance policy.
2:42This led to the High Court granting an unprecedented super injunction and the previous government establishing a secret Afghan resettlement route For almost two years, this government and the last have kept secret a blunder that may have already cost lives and resulted in thousands of Afghans coming to the UK at a cost of hundreds of millions of pounds From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt Today in Focus. The spreadsheet, the super injunction, and the secret relocation scheme the government didn't want you to know about.
3:23Dan Sabbat, you are the Guardian's Defence and Security Editor. Welcome back to Today in Focus. I know it's been a very busy day for you trying to make sense of this data breach, so thanks for taking the time to talk to us.
3:33Dan Sabbagh:No problem at all. Thanks for having me. So let's start at the beginning. When does this story start? The story starts in August 2021, really, which is a rather chaotic month. Western forces were going to evacuate from Kabul and suddenly, at almost bewildering speed, the Taliban took over. And this led to this sort of crisis and panic scenes at Kabul airport, in part because lots and lots of Afghans wanted to evacuate and leave the country. Tens of thousands are trying to get through. At the front, they're being crushed. an Afghan airliner unable to leave as crowds frantically try to reach it.
4:08Thousands of men who worked with or for the US war effort
4:11Dan Sabbagh:push IDs and paperwork through the razor wire. These were typically people afraid of the Taliban and they'd had some connection with the kind of Western presence in Afghanistan and in the case of people who worked with the British they might have been translators or military or anything like that. And after the Western forces left, there remained a long list of people who were still trying to apply to come to the UK around about 18 ,000, 18 ,700. And these names are being accumulated in a database, in a spreadsheet, to try and come to the UK. And the problem was very early in 2022, a defence official made an error and leaked the entire contents of that database by mistake.
4:52Blimey. Yeah, I think many of us won't forget the sort of desperate scenes coming out of Kabul at the time, people holding onto the aeroplane, just so desperate to leave. And so February 2022 is when this leak happened. What do we know about who leaked the information and what exactly was in this database and what were the implications of it?
5:12Dan Sabbagh:It was clearly leaked in error. Somebody inadvertently emailed it to people that they shouldn't have sent it to. What was in the database was information relating to, I think, 18 ,700 claims. And there was quite a lot of information contained within it. In fact, in some cases, included things like names of parliamentarians and, you know, people who might be give evidence or in support of their claim. and there was sort of related information about family members and other individuals the Ministry of Defence has said so it was a big database an awful lot of information and potentially of grim use the Taliban as it would be a way of finding out these are the people who want to flee Afghanistan and come to the UK and perhaps they might be targeted but actually though the data set did leak nothing much happened until the summer of the following year.
5:58Okay, so this Ministry of Defence official, who I think was a soldier, inadvertently leaked this huge database containing the personal details of more than 18 ,000 people who had applied for resettlement in the UK. And we've also learned this week that it wasn't just their details, but also details of people who had endorsed their applications. And that included MI6 spies, SAS and Special Forces personnel. So, you know, very serious. And as I understand it, this soldier had been trying to verify the identity of 150 people who had applied to the ARAP program, that's the Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy, which was set up after the fall of Kabul.
6:36And this email was sent outside authorised government systems, whatever that means. I guess it went to the wrong person. Did that official immediately go, oh God, and raise the alarm? Or did it take a bit longer for the government to realise what had happened?
6:49Dan Sabbagh:So essentially this matter at the highest levels was forgotten about and it was only in the summer of 2023. News of the Breach was published to a Facebook group with about 1 ,300 members. As I understand it, it was a group that was focused on Afghan applications to the UK. Right. So someone got hold of this database, posted the names of some of the people on it and then threatened to post the whole thing on Facebook. Well, the post got seven replies and 22 emoji reactions and apparently remained online for four days. We've learned subsequently. But the question was, who else then became aware of the posting?
7:26Dan Sabbagh:And certainly at this point, the Ministry of Defence became aware and a couple of news organisations became aware as well. And that's where the kind of chain of events really starts. Okay, and so the person who had threatened to post the whole database on Facebook, do we know anything more about this person and what they were threatening to do with the data? Because I've seen it reported that this person was a disgruntled Afghan national whose asylum claim had been turned down. And then someone on the Facebook group raised the alarm by contacting James Heapy, who was the Armed Forces Minister at the time.
7:58Dan Sabbagh:So they're known in the court papers as Person A. This person sent a message to five Arab applicants in this Arab scheme informing them that there'd been a breach of data and warning they should change their numbers and perhaps their locations too. And this person subsequently told reporters they would expect these five individuals to send the information onwards to many others. so this started to spread and somebody else known as person b had seen what was going on the facebook group and had alerted the mod but within a few days a couple of journalists started to pick up on the fact there had been this breach and at this point the situation starts to escalate okay so you said that this post remained on facebook for four days what did the mod do next towards the end of august 2023 the mod panicked really they decided it was a very serious matter They were really, really worried about the database leaking to the Taliban and feared that had it done so, it could amount to a possible kill list for the Taliban.
8:55Dan Sabbagh:And the decision that they took was they decided to go to the high court and seek an injunction preventing the two media organizations that got in touch at that stage, preventing them from reporting about the data breach, its contents and anything related. but what happens is is that the judge does something that the mod didn't ask for and this is a surprise but it's also very important normally when you apply to court and you get an injunction that injunction is in the public domain and that injunction could get served on anyone on whom it might be potential of interest or is circulated and typically you know amongst newspapers and broadcasters and people are aware that there is an injunction preventing reporting But in this instance, the judge turned the tables and decided that the injunction itself should be a secret, that it should be not made public.
9:47Dan Sabbagh:It should not be published on the court website. And therefore, the existence of the injunction was to be secret and not to be reported on. And this turns an ordinary injunction into what is popularly known as a super injunction and created a whole host of problems down the line. Okay so the people who were served with this injunction sort of a handful of media organizations were not allowed to reveal to their listeners their viewers their readers there's stuff that we can't tell you because for legal reasons they couldn't even allude to it in any sense. They couldn't allude to it, they couldn't discuss it with anybody, and equally it also meant that there could be no debate in Parliament about it in theory either.
10:27Dan Sabbagh:So the aim of this, and it turned out successfully, was to suppress all public discussion around it, or even any discussion around the existence of the injunction. and so in the background government officials presumably were frantically working away to try to figure out who on that leak list should be allowed to come to the uk can you just talk us through that operation one of the reasons the injunction was granted was to allow the mod to kind of time to come up with a with a plan to mitigate any impacts on some of these individuals or the highest risk individuals. So then there was a kind of question of what would the MOD do?
11:11Dan Sabbagh:At this stage, there were two schemes in the public domain by which Afghans could come to the UK. And then what gradually begins to occur is that ministers decide that some of these people who might well not have been accepted to come to the UK would now have to be accepted because the fear was that if the Taliban did find out about this data set, their lives would be at risk, the British government would be blamed, it would be a big scandal and everything had to be done to kind of protect them. And so what you start to see in the autumn of 2023 through into the spring of 2024, a secret scheme is devised to allow the relocation of Afghans to the UK.
11:51Dan Sabbagh:And it later becomes called the Afghan response route, the ARR. And this scheme, because it's covered by a super injunction, because it's related to the data breach, The existence scheme is not told to the public. It's not told to Parliament. It's not told to the press. It just exists. What becomes clear in a hearing that is handed down in private a bit before the general election in May 24 is that the size scheme keeps growing, but also the cost of the scheme keeps growing. Although it's sort of a bit unclear exactly what the cost is, it does become clear to the judge that this is going to cost billions of pounds.
12:33Dan Sabbagh:And what the judge is starting to find increasingly difficult is that billions of pounds are being committed, but in a way in which it's completely insulated from public debate. And the judge that hears most of the cases related to this, Mr. Justice Chamberlain, becomes more and more worried. And in May 24, issues a ruling saying the super injunction cannot hold. So the judge says that this, you know, this can't go on indefinitely. And May 2024 is when Rishi Sunak called the general election. The judge in the high court says the super injunction can't hold anymore. And a day later, Rishi Sunak calls a general election.
13:12Dan Sabbagh:Now, one of the contexts of general election or one of the big political issues, of course, is migration, small boats and all those related topics. So what does the government do? The government does exactly what you'd expect it to do. It appeals. and it takes the case of the Court of Appeal and actually as it happens, that's enough to prevent the super injunction lapsing before the election. And in fact, the Court of Appeal, even more favourably to the government, rule when they get round to it in late July after the election that Mr Justice Chamberlain was wrong and the super injunction should be upheld and continue.
13:47Dan Sabbagh:And so at this point, the problem becomes Labour's.
13:58Okay, let's fast forward to this week. Why was the injunction finally lifted?
14:02Dan Sabbagh:Well, it took Labour a while, but the only minister that knew about it in advance was John Healy, who became the Defence Secretary, and he only knew about it because he went for a meeting with one of his Tory opposite numbers, Junior Defence Minister James Heapy, and James Heapy said, hello, and served him with the super injunction, and then told him all about it, putting him in a tight spot. But the Tories also told the Speaker, Lindsay Hoyle, but didn't tell Keir Starmer or any other Labour figures. Really? Starmer didn't know? That's correct. Starmer didn't know. And it seems to be in a decision taken by the Conservatives and John Healy perhaps felt he couldn't tell him because he'd been served with his paperwork too.
14:40Dan Sabbagh:So obviously Labour come into government, the many things to think about and probably, you know, a secret Afghan relocation scheme, however expensive, might not be in one of them. Although Rachel Rees does talk about, you know, a black hole quite early on in the government accounts. Yeah, and she references unexpected costs of asylum claims and asylum accommodation. The document I'm publishing today reveals a projected overspend on the asylum system, including their failed Rwanda plan for this year alone of more than£6.4 billion. So six months go by. Not a lot happens in the legal process either.
15:14Dan Sabbagh:But nevertheless, there's sort of a building up towards further reviews of the super injunction. And then John Healy commissioned a review by a former deputy defense intelligence chief, Paul Rimmer. And Paul Rimmer goes away and writes a review. And it's crucial both legally and politically. And his conclusion is, you know what, if there was a big threat to the people on the list from the Taliban, it hasn't really materialized. materialized and actually the Taliban have got all this information other ways they've got access to the bank accounts that paid all the soldiers uh who fought against the Taliban alongside the Americans and the British we've got access to the medical records where the soldiers went to hospital this kind of stuff so the Taliban have got all the information the reprisals have not been as bad as we feared there are a lot of other competing priorities in government this rather expensive proposal doesn't look like a proportionate response right and this has two effects It has a legal effect and a political effect.
16:09Dan Sabbagh:And the legal effect is that as soon as this paper is passed to the judge, again, Mr. Justice Chamberlain, he takes one look and he says, well, the whole evidential basis for the super injunctions is moot. Because the super injunctions were granted on the idea that the people on the list, if the database had leaked the Taliban, they might be killed. And now the official assessment is they're not really at that much, you know, extra risk at all. And at the same time, politically, what Labour could then do is say, well, we can close down this scheme, which has only sort of half got going, this Afghan response route scheme.
16:42Dan Sabbagh:And actually, we can close down all the other two Afghan schemes too. And we can draw a line under this fair and save a lot of money. And as this comes into the public domain, because there's a sort of grace period before the judgment takes effect, we can try and look like we're in control of the situation. Right, so to summarise, this three-year saga comes to an end because a High Court judge lifts the super injunction this week on the basis that this review that had been ordered by the government has concluded that actually the danger to those on the leaked list is not actually as high as originally feared.
17:16Which, let's be honest, it suits the government, doesn't it? Because it means they can shut down the secret scheme, which was costing vast amounts of money. And we'll come on to just how much it may have cost because that is highly contested. How did all of this get made public this week?
17:30Dan Sabbagh:So on Tuesday at noon, there was a special hearing in the High Court, unusually packed, full of journalists, and Mr Justice Chamberlain read out what he was expected to read out. You know, this super injunction is now null and void. And then half an hour later... I'm disclosing the date of loss, and I'm confirming that the court order was lifted at 12 noon today. John Healy, the Defence Secretary, was able to get up and confirm that to the House of Commons and tell the House of Commons for the first time that this secret scheme had existed and something of its cost and scope. As he admitted himself, it was a rather uncomfortable moment for him personally.
18:09It has been deeply uncomfortable to be constrained from reporting to this House. And I'm grateful today to be able to disclose the details to Parliament.
18:21Dan Sabbagh:But he was also able to put some figures on it, number of people who came and the cost.
18:35Dan Sabbagh:So there's two parts to that. He said that 900 Afghans were either in Britain or in transit, plus who were affected by the data breach, plus a further 3 ,600 family members. And that was going to cost about 400 million. And then there will be invitations to a further 600 and their immediate family, another 1 ,800 people, and that would be another 450 million. So you add all that together, that's£850 million spent on this secret scheme and 6 ,900 people come into the UK who might not have done under the other two schemes that existed. But, John Healy added, by halting the scheme at that point, he said it would mean another 9 ,500 people wouldn't be coming to the UK.
19:21It means that the taxpayer should be paying over the next few years 1.2 billion less.
19:27Dan Sabbagh:So at the very least, the secret scheme was looking like it was costing potentially a couple of billion, although there are other figures around that suggest it might have cost more than that. But Labour was capping the liability, if you like, and bringing not just some badly needed transparency to this affair, but trying to draw a line under it. I've just got a memo here from the government in February 2025, which said that had the ARR scheme been allowed to sort of continue indefinitely, it could have meant relocating 25 ,000 Afghans. And that could cost up to£7 billion had that carried on for around five years.
20:07So I guess the government is sort of trying to say, well, it could have been so much worse than this in terms of the cost of the public purse.
20:12Dan Sabbagh:What you're referring to there is a memo that was written by a cabinet office official that ended up forming part of the final litigation that led to the final hearing and the lifting of the super injunction. and that memo is not very clearly phrased. The author of it appears to suggest that the secret scheme would cost£7 billion. Labour says no. The author is actually referring to the cost of all three schemes and Labour says now the global figure, the total amount of money that was spent on relocating Afghans to the UK is between£5.5 and£6 billion. The estimated full costs of all Afghan schemes that will run to their completion from start to finish because of the savings derived from the policy decisions we've taken today will be between£5.5 and£6 billion.
Read the full transcript
21:04Dan Sabbagh:But the reality is that this scheme was discussed as in a succession of cabinet subcommittee meetings, both under the Conservatives and under Labour. The numbers who might potentially come to the UK keep seeming to change. The largest number I've seen is 30 ,000. at the smaller end more like 15 ,000 and we've seen sums of money from sort of anywhere between two and seven billion bandied around so it's surprisingly unclear exactly how large the scheme was or intended to be as it sort of kept chopping and changing from one cabinet committee meeting to the next. So it was the Labour government who've had to hold their hands up and admit that this has been going on for the past couple of years and this is how much it's cost.
21:47And it is worth stressing this is a very fast-moving story and more details are emerging hour by hour about what happened and what the ramifications are. But what reaction has there been from Labour's political opponents so far?
22:00Dan Sabbagh:On Wednesday, PMQs is quite a muted debate. Keir Starmer said the Conservatives had questions to answer. Ministers who served under the party opposite have serious questions to answer about how this was ever allowed to happen. the chair of the defence committee has indicated that he intends to hold further inquiries I welcome that and hope that those who are in office at the time will welcome that scrutiny the injunction was first sought on the conservatives and the secret scheme was developed on the conservatives yeah you know kemi badnock had other things she wanted to talk about and didn't really didn't really talk about it very much and and the people who are talking about it really are people like ben wallace who was the the first conservative defense secretary and that was my part I'm glad But I'm not on this radio programme today saying, I'm terribly sorry all these people were killed or captured by the Taliban because of this leak.
22:53I'm happy to take the reputation at risk that I took this decision.
22:59Dan Sabbagh:But he actually stopped being Defence Secretary very early on. And at the time of doing this recording, we haven't heard from Grant Shapps, who was the Defence Secretary from September 23 up to the general election. And the Tories have inevitably started something of a blame game between themselves. You've had people like Suella Braverman, Robert Jenrick, Liz Truss, all claiming now retrospectively that they opposed the plans while they were in cabinet. But that has already been contradicted by James Heapy, the Armed Forces Minister at the time, who said that the government was simply following legal advice and that he did not recall fierce opposition.
23:36And he said that there was merely frustrated resignation that it was necessary. And inevitably, Nigel Farage has also weighed in on the matter. Amongst the number that have come are convicted sex offenders. I am not, I promise you, making any of this up. What do you make of what he's had to say so far? The threat to women walking the streets of this country, frankly, is incalculable.
24:02Dan Sabbagh:What's going on here is whatever the precise facts and figures, there will be some people like Faraj who are going to argue that there was a secret scheme to allow thousands, maybe more, I'm sure they'll try and expand the sense of the number of old, but thousands of Afghans coming to the UK without the British public knowing about it. And of course, there is some truth in this. But I think when, you know, Nigel Faraj posted a video talking about, you know, saying that amongst a number that they come are convicted sex offenders. So he's really trying to sort of ratchet up the sense of threat from the number of people coming to the UK from Afghanistan and from this particular scheme when we know the correct figure is projected to be on the secret scheme 6 ,900 and I think in total around 36 ,000 Afghans coming to the UK so far from you know any of the three existing resettlement schemes.
24:56It is worth saying that Faraj has not presented any evidence at all to back up this claim about Afghan sex offenders. But he is basically suggesting, isn't he, that no vetting would have been undertaken, which you'd imagine is not true. Do we know what sort of procedure these people would have gone through in order to be given clearance to come to the UK?
25:17Dan Sabbagh:The people taken under the secret scheme were generally considered to be people who had pretty good claims to come to the UK, perhaps not strong enough to come under the existing MOD scheme, but nevertheless pretty strong claims. I mean, there was a feeling that you could, if you thought about everyone who was conceivably touched by that database leak, you could end up with 100 ,000 people and the number... Well, if you take people's dependents into account. Yes, and the number of post is an awful lot less than that. So an effort was made to find the cases of those people who were felt to be most at risk from the Taliban and people who had the strongest sort of connection to the UK.
25:53Dan Sabbagh:And how careful the vetting was in each of these cases, I can't be sure. But I think the idea that people with tenuous or non-existent claims would be allowed is, I wouldn't rule it out, but I think it's pretty unlikely. And even though this whole scheme was concocted on the Tories' watch, it's Labour that's really having to deal with it now. And they've been pretty hardline, haven't they, on immigration. They pledged in their manifesto, actually, they were going to close down all the asylum hotels. And the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, has talked about getting the numbers of immigrants drastically reduced.
26:27How do you think this whole debacle will affect this?
26:31Dan Sabbagh:In numerical terms, I think it's quite clear that, you know, only a few thousand or up to 6 ,900 extra people will come via this secret scheme described. But the political battle is never about exact numbers. It's a difficult issue for the Conservatives. But is Nigel Farage leading in the opinion polls? Reform UK is certainly riding high and is not encumbered by this past. And as you've already seen, can start saying there is a deep state in Britain. There are things that you're not being told about. There was this secret scheme for Afghan migrants. And I think this is the battle that Labour is going to quite quickly find itself in.
27:06Dan Sabbagh:And, you know, Labour will say, we've taken control and fixed the Tories' mess. And the numbers involved are modest. And in any event, helping the Afghans might be the right thing to do. But they will face political attack. And this is what makes this story so unusual, so extraordinary, that the secrecy that went on for so long makes a more rational argument about this difficult. because the British today, under two successive governments for a long period of time, didn't want this story told. And they knew that it would come out at some point. It was never going to be easy, was it? Dan, thank you very much.
27:44Dan Sabbagh:Thank you very much. Coming up, Marzia, the Afghan judge, on the dangers faced by those on the leaked list.
28:04Marzia, you've told us already of how Afghans received this frankly terrifying email from the Ministry of Defence on Monday, warning them that their personal data may have leaked almost three years ago in August 2022. And we now know that the government has assessed the dangers faced by those on the list and decided that the risk is not as high as maybe they originally thought. I wonder what do you make of that? Do you think that the people on the list do continue to be at risk of persecution by the Taliban because of their work with the British? The people work with the British government as an interpreter or their staff.
28:43They are not safe. Most of these people, they face with kind of challenges by the Taliban. Frequently, they move to different places, like villages and out of the city. Right. So many of them are already in hiding. Also, I want to mention that Afghanistan is not UK. People can find you very easily because we know each other. You know, we know our family. We know we have connection with people. And the secret agency of the Taliban, they put more people in risk. Really? Yes. John Healy said this week that he was unable to say for sure whether anyone had been killed as a result of this breach. But there was a report in the Telegraph which claimed 200 Afghan soldiers and police have been murdered in Afghanistan by the Taliban since the list leaked.
29:36And the Taliban have allegedly claimed that they got hold of the database shortly after it was put on Facebook. Now we should stress that it's really not clear whether those 200 people killed had been on this leaked database. But the Telegraph claims that a Taliban official has told them that many people on the list had fled Afghanistan or gone into hiding, and that the Taliban had hired groups to monitor their homes and relatives' houses around the clock. So do you think people on this list could face what sort of danger? The risk of their life. The high risk. They have no humanity, of course.
30:10It is a very serious risk. And I'm sure you're aware that immigration has become a very contested issue in the UK, led in particular by the Reform Party and Nigel Farage. And he said this week following the data breach that the threat to women walking the streets of this country is incalculable due to, he said, sex offenders would be among those Afghans who were relocated. What do you make of that claim? When you leave your country, of course, you're faced with challenges. The challenges of homesick, the challenges of learning the language, and the challenges of learning the new culture. When I came in this country, I cannot speak a word of English.
30:55But I try to improve my language because the language is part of my life. he shouldn't he shouldn't blame them he shouldn't he shouldn't you know say that kind of judgment to to the afghanis we work hard for our country that's happened not because we wanted we were very happy in our country the people the young people they resettled in the uk trust me they're going to university and they're working all the day i'm really proud of afghanis when they resettle, they work hard and they contribute. They're very well educated. When I hear this last night, I was crying with myself. Why we judge people?
31:42We don't have evidence. We don't have proof, but we still judge people. I think this is the time we should build bridges, not walls, just, you know, to judge people without evidence.
32:05Finally, what do you hope will happen now after this breach and the injunction has all been made public? What do you want to happen next? I really urge the government to consider this situation and protect the people they are facing with challenges. and especially for those already facing threatened by the Taliban and they not feel safe. The UK government, the current government, they try to address the situation, but I hope they address how to solve the problem for Afghans and Afghani people. Azia, thank you so much. Thank you so much for highlighting this issue and I'm really grateful on behalf of the people they face challenges.
33:00That was Marzia Baba-Kakeil. Thank you so much to her and to Dan Sabah. You can read all of his coverage of the leak and its fallout at theguardian.com. And that's all for today. This episode was produced by Ivor Manley and presented by me, Helen Pidd. Sound design was by Ross Burns and the executive producers were Humma Khalili and Courtney Youssef. We'll be back on Monday.
33:29This is The Guardian.




