World Cup: England’s shock squad and the politics of football – The Latest

0:00Jonathan Liew:This is The Guardian.

0:11Jonathan Liew:This World Cup will see more people conscientiously not watching it, whether it's ethical reasons or simply because the tournament's too big or for time zone reasons.

0:23Jonathan Liew:To be an Arsenal fan is to kind of exist at the locus of all these identities, personalities. You feel besieged, but you also feel this sense of pride and also a huge amount of relief, obviously, at doing it after 22 years. So I think that's why you see these huge outpourings of mass celebration. A number of big names have been dropped from England's World Cup squad ahead of this summer's tournament, capping off a historic week in British football, which saw Arsenal win the Premier League for the first time in 22 years. From the Guardians today in Focus, this is the latest with me, Lucy Hough.

0:59Well, joining me is Johnny Liu, Guardian Sports columnist. Thanks for joining us, Johnny, in such a massive week for football, particularly if you're an Arsenal or an Aston Villa fan who've won big trophies, but also because we've had the World Cup squad announced this morning. Can I ask for a bit of a sort of idiot's guide here as someone who's interest in football peaks during these big summer tournaments every couple of years, but then wanes in the interim periods?

1:25Jonathan Liew:A couple of surprises. I mean, I think the major omissions, you might say, are Cole Palmer, Phil Foden, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Harry Maguire, all kind of mainstays of previous squads, all big names and all dropped by Thomas Tuchel. I mean, not hugely surprising in the sense that he hasn't really used them a huge amount in recent months. Palmer's been injured. Foden's been out of form. Trent Alexander-Ronaldo, he just doesn't like him, really. He just doesn't like his profile as a player. He's sort of voiced concerns about his defensive capabilities. And Harry Maguire famously came to prominence in the 2018 World Cup.

2:06Jonathan Liew:That's where a lot of fans will have come across him for the first time. A real stalwart of the England defence. But he's been left out in favour, I guess, of younger, more mobile defenders. I don't think he would be first choice. And I think he sort of vented about it on social media. His mum has said it's disgusting, which my boyfriend said was the moment he knew the World Cup had truly started. But yeah, it sounds like this has gone down very badly in the Maguire household. Obviously, the last time that we had a World Cup, we had Gareth Southgate as manager, who's become this great national treasure.

2:39But we've now got a new manager in Thomas Tuchel. Why was he chosen and does he improve England's chances, do you think, as we approach the contest in a few weeks' time?

2:48Jonathan Liew:I think Tuchel is about as good and high profile and adept a manager as any international team could hope to get around that time. Obviously, we see Carlo Ancelotti taking on Brazil. lots of talk that Pep Guardiola who's just left Manchester City will take on an international job next but in terms of you know the pool that England had to pick from in 2024 after Southgate left Ducal is about as high pedigree a coach as you can imagine Champions League winner you know obviously you know being German I think his nationality was a little bit of an issue with some fans and some pundits at the start but I think he's won over a huge amount of those doubters he clearly loves English football the Premier League and results you know while they've been up and down.

3:34Jonathan Liew:A lot of the friendly results have been pretty poor, to be honest. I think the public is still stuck with him. So Johnny, we're now about 20 days until the tournament starts, but it doesn't really feel like it at the moment. I wonder if you agree. And I wonder if part of that is because it's happening in the United States. Clearly, there being a political context to that, that there is a Trump administration. People may have immigration concerns about travelling to the US at the moment. It means the matches will be happening late at night here in the UK, but also the closeness of FIFA's president Gianni Infantino to Trump, who presented him with the controversial FIFA Peace Prize.

4:13Do you think that context has stymied any of the enthusiasm?

4:16Jonathan Liew:I think that's true to a certain extent. I think this World Cup will see more people, you know, conscientiously not watching it than before, whether it's for ethical reasons or simply because the tournament's too big or for time zone reasons. But it's important to point out that these kind of qualms arise before every World Cup. You know, it gets to a million people go like, oh, the World Cup's in a few weeks. It just doesn't feel big. Where's the hype? And it's obviously because club football, the domestic season, the big leagues and the Champions League, the climax of the season takes up so much oxygen that the World Cup almost sort of creeps in under the radar.

4:56Jonathan Liew:And that's the way it's always been. Well, that has been no truer than this week with these astonishing, well, the historic victory from Arsenal winning its first Premier League in 22 years. And those very beautiful scenes outside the Emirates on Tuesday night, I think just it felt like a celebration of that victory, but also of multiculturalism. I was struck to feel moved by something coming out of the mouth of Piers Morgan for the first time, I think it's safe to say, when he said he felt it was more people that were there than were at Tommy Robinson, the far-right activist Unite the Kingdom rally last weekend.

5:30And that feels true. What do you think of that?

5:35Jonathan Liew:Well, yeah, it's probably the most moving thing, the most stirring thing Piers Morgan said since he quit Good Morning Britain. but you know all joking aside you know I live very close to the Emirates Stadium there were people sort of streaming past my front door late on Tuesday night and you know I'm not an Arsenal fan but I know lots of people who are and like any football club it gives you a sense of identity and belonging and I think this is particularly true in terms of Arsenal given the fact that It's a club, it's a London club in such a diverse and multi-ethnic area, an area that's seen so much flux and change over the last 20 years.

6:14Jonathan Liew:An area that, let's face it, is often derided by other parts of the country. Islington is kind of used as a slur or an insult amongst large parts of the right wing media. So I think to be an Arsenal fan is to kind of exist at the locus of all these different kind of identities, personalities. at ease, you feel besieged, but you also feel this sense of pride and also a huge amount of relief, obviously, at doing it after 22 years. So I think that's why you see these huge outpourings of mass celebration, the need to go and seek out other people. And yeah, I mean, it's one of those scenes where it doesn't matter whether you're a season ticket holder or, you know, a platinum member or a red member, or you're just watching it in the pub or the telly at home, or you're an online, all of these kind of tribal divisions, internal divisions, don't seem to make any difference.

7:02Jonathan Liew:That's the beauty of football, I guess. But I suppose the particularity of Arsenal as well in terms of how pioneering it was in championing diversity 20 years ago under Arsene Wenger and the legacy that's given the club. Yeah, I mean, there's a fantastic book that came out a couple of years ago called Black Arsenal, sort of an anthology of essays and reminiscences that places Arsenal not just at the heart of black footballing culture, but as a touchstone of black Britain, certainly in an era in the 80s and 90s where black players and certainly black fans were not always welcome at all clubs in England.

7:39Which speaks to why, you know, you have Zoran Mamdani wearing his Arsenal scarf at a press conference in New York this week, but you've also had street parties in Kenya and Uganda and Lagos. It just shows how massive a global powerhouse cultural export the Premier League has become, doesn't it?

7:57Jonathan Liew:It really does. The big clubs are as followed. They're following every continent on the globe. And they are kind of multinational brands. It's been one of the great economic sort of soft power success stories of Britain in the last 30 years. And Arsenal, I think they do attract a very cosmopolitan internationalist crowd. It has always been a very outward looking club in terms of its influences and the people that it chooses to appoint and the people that it appeals to. And just lastly, Johnny, I mean, the UK Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, is a lifelong Arsenal supporter. This week will have brought him some rare joy and good news with their victory.

8:40I'm just wondering if you think there's anything that he could learn from the leadership of Mikel Arteta, Arsenal's manager, or that the Labour Party more broadly could learn from the turnaround in Arsenal's fortunes as a team?

8:52Jonathan Liew:Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question. I mean, I guess a couple of things, really. I mean, football clubs at this very rarefied level of achievement, Arsenal are not the richest club in Britain. They haven't won for 22 years. There's a weight of history there. They are almost expected to fail. They've only really been able to succeed by every part of the club pulling together in the same direction, creating as broad a church as possible. You know, you get the fan base on side and you get the, you know, you try and reach out to fans that have maybe been disaffected in the past. You do that through, you know, through social media.

9:29Jonathan Liew:You do that through ticketing or you do that through the media. You try and create this club as a broad church, as a roof for everyone's head. And the other part of it is you do also have to be quite ruthless. You know, Mikel Arteta has not been shy of taking tough decisions, unpopular decisions that have been taken for long-term reasons, but have caused him a lot of pain in the short term. Arteta jettisoned a really successful goalkeeper in Aaron Ramsdale. He's jettisoned club legends and players that have been in the club for years and years and very popular with fans. I think Keir Starmer won't do something if he thinks he'll get him a negative headline in the Daily Mail the next day.

10:08Yeah, and it doesn't sound like Arteta would be forced into a U-turn in the Starmer model of things. Jonny, thank you so much for your time. Cheers. That's it for today. My huge thanks again to Jonathan Liu, Guardian sports writer and columnist. You can keep up with his work over at theguardian.com. And do head over to our sister podcast, Football Weekly, for more in-depth coverage of the club finals this week. And they'll be going daily for the whole of the World Cup. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. Today in Focus will be back in your feeds as usual on Monday morning. The latest will be back on Monday night.

10:40This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hoff. It was produced by Bryony Moore. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin.

10:51Jonathan Liew:I'm Kyra. I'm Kyra Sherman. And we are here to tell you about our new show, which is rooted in this feeling that at least I have, I know you have, where, you know, it's kind of like when you wake up in the morning and you pick up your phone and you're just hit in the face with a fire hose of news, right? There's war, there's authoritarianism, our planet is burning. I could go on and on and on. On and on and on. But we're trying to figure out how to manage it, right? How do you manage it? I manage it by leaning in and trying to learn more and trying to figure out, okay, how can I be smarter about this particular topic?

11:28And who can I talk to that's going to make me feel better about it?

11:30Jonathan Liew:And who can tell me who's responsible for the mess that I'm reading about? So that's our mission. That's the show. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from The Guardian. We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists, just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting. We don't have billionaires telling us what to say. Stateside with Kai and Carter is out now every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Follow on Apple Podcasts or catch us wherever you watch or listen. This is The Guardian. Thank you.