‘Diamonds Are Forever' Songwriter Don Black | How Travel and Songwriting Intersect

0:00You're listening to Travel Secrets with Tanya Rose, the podcast that shares wisdom for fellow travelers.

0:09Welcome to Travel Secrets with me, Tanya Rose, the podcast sharing wisdom for fellow travellers. Each week, I ask my guests to reveal their six travel secrets and the holidays and adventures that surround them. I would just like to say thank you to Mason Rose, the sales and communication agency that represents some of the finest hotels around the world for partnering with Travel Secrets, the podcast. Today, my guest is one of my very favorite people in the world, the famous lyricist, Don Black. It's so wonderful to have you sitting next to me on the sofa. I cannot tell you how happy I am to see you.

0:48I'm trying so hard to look humble. We met through a mutual friend a few years ago, and I didn't know that you were going to be there, and I was introduced to you and the hostess said, this is Don Black, and I went into fangirl mode. I said, you are literally my favourite lyricist in the world. Most people listen to pop music in their cars. I listen to musicals. So your catalogue of songs have been the songbook of my life from Born Free, Diamonds Are Forever, my very favourite song in the world, which not everybody might know, which is from the wonderful film with Michael Caine, On Days Like These.

1:27I absolutely adore that song. I listen to it almost every day in my car. That was Matt Munro's favourite. Was it really? Out of all the songs I wrote for him. And you were Matt Munro's manager as well as a lyricist, weren't you? I was, yeah. We were very good. I went round the world with Matt Munro and never saw any of it because he wasn't interested in that. It's funny, you know, he was marvellous. but he liked a game of cards in the hotel room. Oh, yeah. So you stayed in the hotel and then didn't? Yeah, I know. That's not the thing to say to you, of course, but it was funny. I used to say to him, Matt, you realise outside that window there's Ipanema Beach?

2:06And then I say, you know, Fifth Avenue's over there. You know, he'd say, it's your deal. In a lovely way. He was the loveliest man. He had the most divine voice though, didn't he? And that song really is. I mean, he did a lot of your songs, but that really is wonderful. The great Quincy Jones did the music. And then Aspects of Love, one of my favourite musicals, Sunset Boulevard. I mean, I could go on and on and on, but Don has the most amazing stories. So I am delighted to have you and to hear your travel secrets. I'm honoured to be here. I hope I do it justice because when I go on holiday, I'm very happy to reflect and contemplate rather than see everything or eat everything.

2:49So we'll see how we get on. That's wonderful. Before we actually go into your travel secrets, perhaps you can tell everybody a little bit about who you are and how your life has been. Well, lyric writers are known for being condensed. Everything is economy of words. So I'll say it quickly. So I came from the East End of London, Hackney, and I came. One of five. I'm the youngest of five. And I've always been interested in words. And I can tell you exactly when it started and how it started. My sister, Nita, God bless her, she said to me one day, she's going to pictures to see a big film. It's called They Made Me a Fugitive.

3:37It was a big film at the time. and I said, are you going to see they made me a fugitive? And she burst out laughing and said to everyone, Donald said fugitive. Now from then on, and I was about 12, I used to go to my teacher on vocabulary. I used to ask everyone, what does diagnosis mean? What does garrulous mean? Any word. And it was a bit of fixation with me there. And my wife later on in life used to test me. I had a thing about vocabulary because of that. And that went into songwriting. But anyway, from there, I left school and I went to Denmark Street, which is Timpan Alley. It was known as Timpan Alley, Denmark Street.

4:25It was also known as 200 Yards of Hocum, which is a lovely way of describing it, surrounded by songwriters. Oh, really? And you won't know these names, but not many people do know names of songwriters. But they had a man called Jimmy Kennedy who wrote My Prayer, Red Sails in the Sunset. Michael Carr who wrote South of the Border. And all these people. And I was surrounded by them because I worked for a music publisher and the new musical Express. And every time they wanted an English lyric for something, there was only one man they went to. It's a man called Norman Newell. Oh, I don't know. He was a lovely, yeah, he wrote more, more than the greatest love the world has.

5:10He wrote that. He wrote Portrait of My Love. And that obviously registered with me. And anyway, I started writing lyrics because I just, I love Cole Porter and Irving Berlin. And I was always driving my family mad about Cole Porter. You know, anyone can say goodbye. Don't leave me. But it takes a cold porter to say every time we say goodbye, I die a little. Or, you know, when skies look grey to me, I concentrate on you. And it just got to me. And also lyrics, difficult words in lyrics like cry me a river, which is my friend wrote that, Arthur Hamilton. And the line that you told me love was too plebeian.

6:02Straight away to the dictionary, plebeian. What does that mean? Yeah. That's such a good song. Same as Noel Coward as well in Mad About the Boy, Will It Ever Cloe, this diversity of misery, diversity. I had to get these words in songs. I was just sort of, and people thought, is Donald mad? You know, my family like that. But anyway, eventually, to cut a long story short, in Denmark Street I made very good friends with John Barry, the great composer, just to give your viewers and listeners an idea. He did Out of Africa, Dances with Wolves, 11 James Bond films, a fabulous man. And he was my best friend.

6:44And so was Matt Monroe, a struggling singer. And Matt, when he started getting, doing something, he found a tune which was called Varum No Varum, which is an Austrian tune. And he said to me, I'll do an impression of him. He says, listen son if Lionel Bart can do it why can't you have a go at that thing so I did have a go at it and I called it walk away and it was a hit I really couldn't believe it was a hit because I'd written before but nothing happened at all with nothing I wrote one song for Matt before and I remember when the PRS check came in, which was, it was£10. But I didn't know you could make money.

7:37And£10, we were just starting, me and the missus. And, you know, that was how it started. And that song turned out to be John Barry's favourite song. Did it? Really? He loved, well, it's about an old man and a young girl, which he could relate to. and he said when he heard it he said to me I do another impression of John Barry he said to me he's from Yorkshire do you fancy having a go at Thunderball so I said what is that and he says it's a James Bond thing they've asked me to do so I did that did you do Thunderball first was Was that your first James Bond? Yes, it was, yeah. And it was very successful.

8:25It was. And it got me into movie songs. And it was great. I mean, I could reminisce all day about those days because I did over 100 films. Did you do with John Barry, Born Free? I did. That is the most beautiful song and an amazing theme tune for people's lives, isn't it? It is, but you know, you need a lot of luck in this business. And I had two pieces of luck because Carl Foreman, the producer of it, didn't like it. No, he didn't like it. He said he thought John's melody was too syrupy and he thought my lyric was too much of a social comment. He said it should be more about lions and tigers.

9:14That's like lions and cages rather, not tigers. but it went in because the publishers said it won't be eligible for an Academy Award unless it's in every print because he started out not in every print but it was a hit in America by Roger Williams and his orchestra and chorus so they rushed every print back to put it in to see if it would be eligible for an Oscar and so then of course it comes to we got nominated for it which was exciting I didn't think I didn't even think about it you've got to remember I was 27 when this happened which is 20 years ago you know so the other day so I'm sitting there next to Burt Bacharach and Hal David who were nominated for Alfie which was such a great song Michael Caine film Yeah, lovely.

10:15Fantastic. And then all of a sudden, from out of nowhere, Dean Martin, the great Dean Martin, opened the envelope and the winner is John Barry and Don Black for Born Free. So it was amazing. That's incredible. But the bit about, which was wonderful, is that Carl Foreman, who didn't like it at all, put his arm around me at the after party and said, well, it does grow on you. Oh, it was just fantastic. And that was one piece of great luck. And the other piece of luck was when I did Diamonds Are Forever with John Barry. There were two producers, Cubby Broccoli and Harry Saltzman. Harry Saltzman heard it and didn't like that either.

10:58No. He said, it's too filthy. You can't say touch it, stroke it and undress it. And undress it. You can't say that. And John Barry said, well, what do you know about songs? And slammed the door. It was a nasty thing. but Shirley Bassey loved it. And she did such a great job. So that's all she is. You do need a bit of luck because Born Free couldn't have happened. Diamonds couldn't have happened but thankfully they did. Well, I'm going to go into your travel secrets but I have one more question about when you're writing lyrics. So something like Born Free was about a lion and, you know, the lion being freed.

11:33Did you go there? Did you see the lion? I mean, how do you come up with those lines? Well, people think, you know, that you have to read scripts. Whenever I do a film or have done a film, I like someone to say what it's about, just what is it about, in a sentence or two. And, you know, someone said to me, Virginia McKenna, who's a lovely lady and all that crowd of people, it's about a lion who's been tamed and they want to send him in the wild, you know, send her to the wild. I said, is that it? You know, and that's it really. But when you hear the tune and you think, oh, my God, this has got to be moving, it's got to give you goosebumps.

12:22So, and it's just something you do. No one can explain. That's why it's very hard interviewing a songwriter because no one really knows how it's done. You don't know. You know, I mean, you just do it. Well, you do know because every song you've written has been amazing. So for Police Sir, for example, how did you find that? To Sir with Love, you mean. I mean, to Sir with Love, yeah. To Sir with Love. Well, that was, again, James Clavel, the man who wrote it, said it's about a black man who comes to the east end of London and they're horrible kids. They're horrible. They throw things at him. But eventually, they get to like him.

13:08and the film's called To Sir With Love. And I wrote that on my kitchen and that's one of the, in my kitchen table, and it's one of the few songs I've written the lyrics first. Oh, really? Because normally you get the music first. And I just wrote it down and Lulu loved, they all loved the lyric, but they sent it out to about 10 people to write the melody. And it was up to Lulu to choose the right one and she chose the right one. She did and she sang it absolutely beautifully and the film was amazing. Let's get into your travel secrets. What is the number one destination you think everyone should go to once in their lifetime?

13:46I'd love to say something arcane and exotic, but I'll say something lovely, and that is the Cipriani in Venice. Oh, yes. Which I know you know every place in the world, so it won't surprise you. It was recommended by Michael Winner. And the reason I like it, it's like no place on earth, that place had the most fabulous swimming pool. Amazing. The shuttle that takes you to St. Mark's Square. It's just, and also it's a poet's dream, if you like, a bridge of sighs, most romantic. Said, you must come with me. I love the Cipriani. It's so wonderful. And Michael Winner was a mutual friend of both of us.

14:27Yes. And he did his big birthday party there, didn't he? That's right, and they do have a picture of him in the hall. He used to terrorize them. Did he? Yes, yes. The people at the Orient Express used to phone me and say, Mr. Winner is coming. And I said, don't worry. If you make sure you do everything he asks, make sure he has the right sparkling water. He has a bed in the morning on one side of the pool and on the other side in the afternoon, you'll be absolutely fine. I loved Michael. He was fantastic. If he loved you, he loved you. Yeah, he did. I must say, I was a little disappointed in Harry's bar.

14:59I must say that. Only because I expected such a – It's a lovely restaurant, but, you know, when people talk about Harry's Bar, you know, you think you're surprised that it's just a restaurant. It is, just a small restaurant. It's just a restaurant, but it's lovely. Yeah. But you expect more because of the reputation. Yeah, yeah. There's a very good table in the corner, which is the table you need to have. Where Ernest Hemingway always used to sit, that's the table, because then you can see the whole restaurant. Ernest Hemingway. Yeah. And also, if you can't afford to go to Harry's Bar, you can just go in for a Bellini, which is really delicious.

15:31and just at least to get the experience of Harry's Bar, don't you? Right. I do love the Cipriani. There's a better hotel that's going to be opening next year, which I'm going to send you to. Okay. Right next to the Cipriani, there's the most beautiful old palace and it's going to be opened by Erel, which is a French group. And the garden in the Erel Hotel is bigger than the Cipriani one. That garden is beyond. Yeah, it really is. And actually the funny thing about the Cipriani is that the architect got the dimensions of the pool wrong, which is why it's double the size. They did it in feet instead of meters or meters instead of feet, whichever, I can't remember, which is bigger.

16:09What is your most unexpected travel experience? This is an easy question to answer, which is nice to get an easy one. I was, on the way to Sydney, we stopped in Singapore and we stayed at Raffles. and it was a fantastic place. I love that hotel, the colonial architecture. But the two things I love in life, there's probably a longer list than this, but I've always played snooker. Oh, yeah. It's a big thing. It's just a passion. I always find it very calming. I have done. And I've always loved Rudyard Kipling. Oh. And they both have a connection to Raffles. Do they? Yes. Rajar Kipling used to go there to write.

16:59Oh. So did Somerset Maugham. Oh, really? And this billiard table became famous because of an unusual incident that happened. In 1902, the last tiger in Singapore was shot under that table. No. Yeah, it's a great, if anyone can look it up, it's a great story. I did not know that. A tiger came from the local circus and he escaped. And he was sleeping under that billiard table. It's a famous story. Was it a hotel then already? Yes. Oh, my goodness. And a hunter was staying at the hotel and shot the tiger. That is the story. And I played snooker on the table. Did you win? No, it was only me, just playing myself.

17:47So I remember that. Also, I always remember I had a Singapore sling. I was going to say, did you have a Singapore sling? I had a Singapore sling because I don't drink hardly. So it was a big thing for me. I'm still not quite over it. I was going to say, did it make you very lightheaded? Oh, my goodness. They're very strong. And everyone smiles in Singapore. Yeah, it's a lovely place. And that hotel is very lovely. You've been there? I have been there. I have been there. I stayed there a couple of nights when I was going on my way to Bali. Okay. Yeah, it was very lovely. Very, very lovely. What is your most overrated travel experience or underrated it could be?

18:22Yeah, it's an odd thing I'm going to say now because what I'm going to say now was really fabulous when I first went there. Underrated, I would say, and now it's overrated. And that is the Empire State Building. When I went years ago with Matt Monroe, we talked about 50 years ago, it was a mixture of joy and terror. to go up those 85 stories or something like that, more than that. But it was a slow lift and claustrophobic and everything. And recently, because I went for the opening of Sunset Boulevard, I took my grandchildren there. And it's terrible. You say, we're up to the top in a minute. And it's so crowded.

19:09It's crowded and so full of merchandise. It lost all its splendor. So I was disappointed. about that. One of my favorite films has the Empire State Building, An Affair to Remember. Oh, I love it. I love the tune. I love that film. Yes, it was a great one. Who wrote that song? Yeah, it's a film composer. I love the film. I shouldn't sing because I can't sing. Oh, it was wonderful with Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant. Yes, it was a great one. So lovely. Such a great film. I've got a good tip. If you ever go back with your grandchildren, instead of going to the Empire State building. If you go to the top of the Rock, which is the Rockefeller Centre, it's much less merchandise-y.

19:51You don't have to queue. You have the same view exactly. And if you go at sunset, it is really wonderful. Much less tourity. Hopefully for the Tony Awards. Are you going to be nominated? I've got no idea. Did you win an Olivier for the London one? Yes. It is a fantastic production. I love the fact that he walks outside when he's singing Sunset Boulevard. Do they do that in the New York one as well? So they go up and around. They go all around 46th Street. It's incredible. It's very clever. And she is fantastic. So surprising for the star, one of the stars of the show, suddenly walks out into the street singing.

20:33So good. Yeah, it's good. What do they do when it rains then? They've got that covered. Have they? Yeah, they've got it covered. It's absolutely wonderful. I'm going in April, so I will go and see the Broadway. show. I've seen it in London, but I'll definitely go and see. And so go to the top of the rock and see if it's a better experience. I think you'll find it is a better experience. Let's go on to food and drink. This is so much part of travel. Yeah, well, for me, it's always who you're with. And you know, I've had so many wonderful dinners of people like Billy Wilder. Oh my goodness. Many times to have dinner with him.

21:12Did you? How amazing. Breakfast with John Wayne. You know, all the composers, of course, the great American composers. And the food is not that important when you're having dinner. But one thing that went really well with both the food and the person, I'll leave the person to last, a bit of a drum roll when it comes, and it was at Les A, Les Ambassador. Oh, yeah. Which I know is probably not right for you because I'm not sure. I think you have to be a member. So it's probably. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter? Not at all. Well, we had Lobster Thermador, which was incredible. But the man who I was with was Mario Puzo, the godfather, the man who wrote The Godfather.

22:00Absolutely. And he was the most wonderful man. And we went there two or three times with him. And when you're having dinner with someone like that and the food's good, that's your evening. So you don't need. Well, what more could you ask for? No, and when you have dinner with Glenn Close and people like that and Shirley MacLaine, you think of the dinners and the lunches and what did you eat? Oh, who cares? It's who you're with, absolutely. When you do a show, do you do post or pre usually? What, eating? Pre if I can, although most artists like to go after the show. Yeah, because they're exhausted.

22:45And in Broadway, for example, what are the restaurants that people go to? Is it something Lazard? Well, the Sardis is the main one. Sardis. Yeah, Sardis is the main one. Sardis. Which is a question you've got later on where something poignant happened to me. Yes. And I'll say it now because something poignant happened to me in Sardis. Oh, really? And it was the most wonderful thing. You have to know a bit about my life or this world I live in. But I'm sitting in Sardis with a guy who is a songwriter called Jeff Stevens. You won't know his name. No one knows songwriters' names. But he wrote There's a Kind of Hush All Over the World, Winchester Cathedral.

23:31It goes on and on. And who walked in? It was, I couldn't believe it, Richard Rogers. Oh, my goodness. And as he walked in, the piano player played Manhattan. I'll take Manhattan. And you imagine the mood. Amazing. And it was just the most amazing, because he was the man. Yeah. Anyone in the theatre business, he's the man, Richard Rogers, way before Andrew Lloyd Webber. And I wrote a note to him. I said, I don't care, Jeff, we've got to do this. And I wrote a note over and I said, Dear Mr. Rogers, we're two songwriters, Don, Born Free, Black, and Jeff, there's a kind of hush, whatever it was, Jeff Stevens, we'd love to say hello.

24:22And he went over the guy and the waiter, Richard Rogers called us over. What was wonderful and terrible, because he was ill. he had throat cancer so he couldn't speak much but it was still he just gave us such a warm love as you know feeling that people do in the same profession as if to say I know what you go through you know it was just a thing that I'll never forget but that must have been such an amazing thing because as you say Rodgers and Hammerstein yes I mean he's written everything Rodgers and Hart I mean all these thousands of hits you know Oh, that really is an amazing story. How lovely that he actually, of course, he was going to.

25:06And when you think of Manhattan, you know, you think, oh, my God, he wrote that as well. And I'm in Manhattan sitting here. It all made sense. That is a really lovely, poignant story. Poignant, that's right. What is your best travel tip? Well, I wish I had something clever to say here. But I like to think of the place I'm going to, catch up on it, check up on where I'm going because it saves you asking so many questions. But it's not really, as I said earlier, when I go to a holiday, and incidentally I don't like long holidays. I'm not you know it's I always like to in my everyone will tell you who knows me I hate long windedness this is one of my characteristics and I it's like songwriting there is a correlation my whole life is you know get the right words I was a comedian were you yeah I was a stand up comedian before I became a I missed that out at the beginning really yeah and were you a good comedian yeah well i i did it professionally i played a lot of places yeah and there's a correlation between comedy and lyric writing you'll find any great comedian will not waste a syllable or they will you know you can kill a gag and you know when you write a lyric you it's got to be so concise and um the same with a holiday it's the same with a holiday you know once i've been to Sandy Lane for a week.

26:47Yeah. Oh, it's lovely. I get it. It's fabulous. What time's the plane? When am I going home? Yeah. I'm always there. And he says, Sam, I'm the same with museums. And it's not because I've listened to your program. And as I mean, you know, people like Dominic West, he likes to see the redwood trees. and Giles Brandreth. He went pony trekking in, was it? Iceland or somewhere like that. Yeah, and who was the other one that I was talking about? Toby Jones. Toby Jones, hitchhiking in the Himalayas. You know, it's me and a tree is fine and a book. It's plenty for me. But I like that, you know, when I go on holiday, I do want to have a holiday.

27:40and I've never had that pioneering spirit, I'm afraid, but you've had many guests who do have it. Absolutely, and I love a tree in a book and a hammock. A hammock's even better. Lovely, absolutely perfect, perfect scenario. Good. Very, very good, very good. So finally, I asked you to bring a photo. Yeah. Tell me about the photo and what that means to you in travel. Okay, well, the photo, again, this photo, I think, is overrated, this photo business, because all photos go in a drawer. Yeah. They do. So wherever I've been to Shanghai, I've been to wherever, I've been to Chile, I've been to all those places that you, you know, South Africa, whatever.

28:27But you have to go through so many drawers to get to those pictures. And I remember going to Shanghai and Shirley, my late wife, said, we've got to take something back. And we spent so much time looking for some ornament or some vase or something. And it was a glorious day of going through all the antique shops and everything else. So I've got this lovely piece at home. And the thing about it is I see it all the time. Yeah. It's there. Oh, I look at it and think, yeah, those were the days. When I was in Shanghai. Yeah, as opposed to a picture that you've got to say, where was that picture? I print all my photos.

29:14So I go through my phone because that's the problem with phones. You take so many and then you never see them. So I go through my photos at the end of the year, delete them, and then I print them all in a photo book because I actually want a physical copy of a photograph. and then I put photos around the house and I change them all the time because I think you're right. Otherwise, you just don't see them, do you? That's why you're Tanya Rose. Oh, dear. So what's next for Don Black? Where are you going next and what's next? Are you writing? Are you creating? I am working on things. Everyone is always.