Travelling with Princess Diana | Sam McKnight, Celebrity Hairdresser

0:03Welcome to Travel Secrets with me, Tanya Rose, the podcast sharing wisdom for fellow travelers. Each week, I ask my guests to reveal their six travel secrets and the holidays and adventures that surround them. I would just like to say thank you to Mason Rose, the sales and communication agency that represents some of the finest hotels around the world for partnering with Travel Secrets, the podcast.

0:33Today, my guest is Sam McKnight, the legendary hairstylist. He's just celebrated 50 years of being in business, which is just unbelievable. 50 years this month. Is it this month? Oh, congratulations. And you are so famed for so many things, from changing Princess Diana's hair into looking like a sleek goddess, working with Vivian Westwood, working with Karl Lagerfeld, 200 covers of Vogue, working with amazing photographers. You have travelled the world and I cannot wait to hear your travel secrets. Welcome, Sam. Can't wait to share them. Before we get into them, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about yourself and how travel has impacted the person you've become.

1:16Did you grow up travelling? Let's just talk about you for a little while. I didn't grow up travelling. I am from Scotland. I'm from a very small mining community in the country in the south of scotland the beautiful airshire countryside and a travel for me was my dad had an old morris miner oag 642 was a registration there you go and uh and then he got a hillman minx and a car was a luxury for us back then in the 60s so we'd get to go to air which has beautiful beaches so that was my first taste of travel and then we'd go further afield to Blackpool. So Blackpool was my, just felt like from a mining village in south of Scotland, Blackpool was just, it was like the Las Vegas.

2:01Yes, absolutely. The bright lights of Blackpool. I mean, back then, all those places were thriving, you know. It was before people actually travelled abroad, you know. So that was the taste of travel I got. And I didn't really, I didn't travel anywhere till I was about, I think I was abroad till I was about 20 years old, something like that. I think I'd been on a school trip to Belgium. But my first holiday was on Danair to the Amalfi Coast. Danair. I had forgotten the name of Danair. Gosh, extraordinary. I remember we flew to, I think we flew to Rome and drove to Naples. When I think about it now, because I go to Italy a lot now, and I've done that journey on the train and everything is so modern now in Italy.

2:52But back then, it was horses plowing the fields, you know, it was quite... Rural. It was very rural, yeah, rural, yeah. It's quite hard to say that, isn't it? Rural. It really was. It was a different time. So, yeah, I was very lucky. And you came down from Scotland to London and started working at Malton Brown, is that right? I worked before that. I worked at Miss Selfridge on Regent Street. They had a salon in there. Yeah. And I loved it. It was great. Then I blagged a job at Elizabeth Arden, which was on Bond Street. And then I got a job in Moulton Brown. And that was just bliss for three years I worked there.

3:34And I still see a lot of the people that I worked with, actually. It was a wonderful time, Moulton Brown. I remember South Moulton Street was fantastic. South Moulton Street was so cool. And Brown's opposite. And Brown's. Well, it was the same company pretty much. And we used to just spend our wages on a Friday night in Browns. So it was circular. It was so good, wasn't it? It was just a wonderful time. And Miss Selfridge, I remember I used to live in the countryside and I used to come up and spend my pocket money either in Miss Selfridge or in Fiorucci, which was also just coming up at the time.

4:07So those were the days. Or Bieber even. Yes, Bieber. Oh, my goodness. Bieber was the most incredible place. It's hard to explain Bieber, isn't it? It's hard to explain, to describe. It's hard to describe to someone now exactly what it was like. And it was that whole building on Caserton High Street. It wasn't just a shop. No, no. It was a whole. It was like a theme park. It was an experience. Was it where the Roof Gardens is? No, it was. No, it's the Roof Gardens. The Roof Gardens was Bieber. Yeah, it was, wasn't it? Amazing. Yeah. Well, those were the days. And actually now the only time that people talk about Bieber is on the Antiques Road show when somebody's got the costumes and they say this is something I bought in Bieber or this is an old Vivian Westwood thing let's get into your travel secrets what's the number one destination you think everyone should go to once in their lifetime I think everyone should go to Italy I think Italy is just it's so different from north to south the food the whole experience of it the Italians are great, you know, the coastline, the Tuscany countryside, the history, the ruins in Rome, the sort of industry in Milan.

5:17And sometimes when I'm in Milan for fashion week, if we've got a couple of days free in the middle, which we often do, we'll go on the train and go up to Como and have lunch in March and the snow's still on the Alps, but it's a little warmer on the lake. it's just so beautiful and it's not very big so you can traveling by train in italy is so easy it's so easy it's so much easier than here and relatively inexpensive and really reliable um so i would recommend the whole of italy the whole of italy from sicily up to como yeah i just adore it as well we have a lovely hotel on lake como too actually uh pass al aqua that won best hotel in the world last year and grand hotel tramezzo we look after portrait milan have you been there no i don't it's fantastic it's ferragamo hotel when you're going to fashion you absolutely must pop in there do you do lots of shoots in milan we do lots of shows in milan yeah so where do you normally stay when you go there i stayed for years at the park hyatt i stayed for years at the baglioni i kind of change every few years well do try the portrait milan it's absolutely fantastic i will love it absolutely love it so italy's the number one destination italy's the number one destination and it's difficult to find one place to say isn't it because venice is as lovely as florence as lovely as rome so it's also a bit but rome there's something magical and special about rome about the light in rome even in the winter rome is fantastic in the winter and those kind of murmurations of starlings in the evening are just magic aren't they those those sort of shapes that they do it's beautiful and those there seem to be really prolific in Rome.

7:02I love the Hassler Hotel, which is at the top of the Spanish steps. I mean, the views from that terrace are just amazing. I agree with you. Italy's a wonderful place. What's your most unexpected travel experience? Apart from getting stuck on the Eurostar for 16 hours in the famous delay where seven trains were stuck in the tunnel. That was borderline nightmare that was um that was unexpected um but we love Eurostar it's an amazing um creation it's fantastic I mean it's changed the lives of so many hasn't it it's made Paris and London so much closer to Brexit that is that was most unexpected but in a different kind of unexpected um I have been really lucky enough to do most of my traveling for work over the years and have the most incredible travel experiences that I wouldn't have been able to have in any other job or role.

7:57You know, I traveled a lot with Vogue magazine through the 80s, 90s. One particular trip with British Vogue, we went to, we did a whitewater rafting. No, it wasn't whitewater. It was just a rafting. The whitewater wasn't, it was the season when it wasn't so rough because we were shooting. We had one raft for clothes and one raft for the team. with a wonderful photographer called Sheila Metzner, whose pictures are just fabulous. And we had a week on the Green River, starting in Utah and ending up, I think, somewhere in Nevada. Amazing. It was wilderness, so you weren't allowed to sort of leave anything.

8:37We had to sort of carry a bucket with all our waste in it wherever we went. It wasn't to go in the river. I mean, it was very, very, very eco-friendly. And that was 30-odd years ago. So we spent a week doing that and we shared tents. I shared a tent with Mary Greenmore, luckily my dear friend, the makeup artist, and we didn't fall out much. But we slept in tents under the stars and we kind of camped around a fire and someone played a guitar and we sang songs at night and lit fires and then moved on to the next location through these incredible, you know, western American canyons it was just fantastic I mean thank god it wasn't the sort of high whitewater season because we wouldn't have been able to do it because in January this year I went proper whitewater rafting in Costa Rica did you yes I now travel for myself not so much for work because there aren't those fabulous trips so much anymore because budgets are being cut and is a different world.

9:48So I travelled myself, not by myself, for myself, although I'm quite happy to travel myself too. We went whitewater rafting and ziplining up by the volcano in Costa Rica. You're so brave. Oh, it was amazing. It was incredible. It was something I've all, I'm doing bucket list now. Okay, I'm 70 years old, bucket list time. And the bucket list and the luck, I think travel has now become the sort of epitome of luxury. You know, it's not about an expensive jacket or bag or whatever for me. I've done all that. It's now about times and experiences. Yeah. And I'd never done river rafting, whitewater rafting properly before.

10:29So, oh, my God, it was amazing. It was incredible. Absolutely incredible. And, of course, we fell in and the water was warm. and you're kind of going through these the slow bits and you see the monkeys and the anteaters and the trees and it's just incredible it's an incredible exhilarating experience and you feel like you've achieved something afterwards i think that's amazing and then zip wiring wow zip lining yeah well you go through the canopy and and you sort of it you i think we did about 13 zips if that's what you call them and you see these sort of 10 year old kids doing you think right okay I can do that I can do that um and I did it and it's the first one's quite sort of scary because you don't quite know what to do and how to get off on them but they help you and it's just the most fantastic experience I urge people to do stuff they've not done before because there's nothing quite so invigorating and energizing as feeling like you've achieved something you never I thought you might do.

11:34Out your comfort zone. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Where did you stay in Costa Rica? We stayed in a, I can't remember what they're called. We stayed in a lodge up by the volcano and just kind of traveled every day. And then we stayed in a not so great place. Did you stay at the Nayara camps? They're the best ones. No, I didn't stay at the Nayara. Oh, it may have been. The first one sounds as if it might have been. The first one was, it was very, very nice. Yeah, I bet it was. And then we've rented a house for a week. We rented a villa for a week, which was gorgeous, you know. Bucket list. There aren't so many great hotels in Costa Rica, I don't think.

12:09No, there aren't. No. No, the Nayara Group is definitely up there, but there are lots of not so good ones. But it's still a place that I want to know. I think we stayed in a smaller place, which was actually really nice. It was great. What's your most overrated or underrated travel? I'd probably give you one of each. I say my most overrated, and this was 30 years ago, was Rio in Brazil. It was kind of a big city on the beach. And I didn't quite, it was really busy. Maybe I didn't quite get to sort of feel the real Rio. It just felt quite dangerous, but not in a good way. And that, but I'd like to do Brazil again.

12:47I went to Brasilia in Iguazu. Brasilia was incredible. In fact, I was talking to someone about that the other day. And Iguazu's just magnificent. Rio, I didn't fall in love with Rio. What were you doing there? I was with Princess Diana, actually, when she did a visit there. But the hotel we stayed in, the Copacabana Beach Hotel, was amazing. Yeah, that's the best one on the beach, isn't it? That was amazing. But Rio itself, the other places in Brazil, like Brasilia, Iguazu, incredible. But Rio, I guess I had such huge expectations of Rio from movies. and maybe I didn't get the chance to experience it as, but I have a Brazilian friend and I keep saying, okay, we're all going to go out to Brazil one year.

13:29And if he takes you, you probably will see the real. Different experience, yeah. And what's your underrated? I think underrated for me, it's got to be the UK. I mean, we have the most incredible cities, countries, landscapes here. And I love going out to the country with a dog. I love, even up the Thames to Henley and Marlow, those kind of places and I'm going down to Sussex at the weekend I drive to Scotland a lot stop in the Lake District for a cup of tea and I mean we've got those cities in Scotland like Edinburgh and just and and the Hebrides and the Western Isles this country is so beautiful and breathtaking And it's a bit like Italy.

14:15It's not a huge country. It's easy to drive. And each area changes quite drastically from one to another. Well, the weather changes, the landscape changes. Tourists come here and enjoy it. But I think British people don't. And I'm guilty of that, as not exploring it as much as I probably should. But I think as I've gotten older, I appreciate it more. And I'm really interested in exploring. I got the train to, where did we go to the other day? We went to Highgrove for a perfume launch. So we got the train to there. And we were all sitting on the train. I said, oh, my God, this countryside is so breathtaking.

14:59Yeah, it really is. I love the English country. I think we've got better since COVID, actually. Because that's when we had to start staycationing. I absolutely couldn't agree with you more because during, I've spent my life traveling. Yeah. Working with Carl, I was in Paris five, six times a month. Oh, really? A month? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was away from home more than six months of the year. Really? I was traveling. Yeah. And, you know, traveling is not always glamorous. Traveling can be really quite stressful. Especially when you're taking the models and the clothes and everything. Six bags of hair stuff and God knows what or more, 60 bags of hair stuff.

15:33Not quite. during covid that all stopped for everyone so there was no guilt of turning a job down because the jobs weren't there and i remember i had my 65th birthday in the may so it was a couple of months in and i'd had covid but very gently wouldn't and i had an epiphany because i i i have a very nice big garden in London and I love gardening. I love being outside. And I was sowing my seeds, watching them grow. Normally I'll sow them, watch them grow for a bit. Then they get really laggy and I have to throw them away because I've got to go away. But I was there and the light went on. I thought, oh, okay, there is another world.

16:22There's another life I would like to explore so I kind of pulled back for and also we launched our hair products so my kind of world sort of naturally the balance kind of it rebalanced and and I wanted it to rebalance and that's when I started realizing I was traveling for myself more rather than for work yeah and it's it's a different thing it's a bit more the pace is different yes it's your own pace you're not you're not dancing to the drum of of somebody else you're doing you're making your own decisions in case yeah no i think that happened for everybody really didn't it yeah and we didn't have a choice so actually it was a thing so it was a natural evolution for me and i think in my business things never went back to because because i think big clients saw there was a cheaper way of doing things and I think AI is probably going to force that down even further you know and of course they're still they're still traveling they're still but it's it's I don't think we'll ever hit that peak again of how it was before and actually you were living it during that amazing time I mean the fashion shows and things in the times you were doing it was absolutely I mean Karl Aguilf's fashion shows were just I was very lucky to be part of that yeah and also you did Vivienne Westwood I did Vivian for 30 years.

17:49Yeah. I mean, hers really were, well, they both were actually. They were shows. They were real pieces of art really, weren't they? We did one just after Carl passed away, which was really memorable in Rome again at night in front of the Colosseum. And we had 54 models all in, they'd taken one outfit from every collection he'd ever done for Fendi, which was 54 years. So one from every year. we matched the color of the wig to the outfit which was all kind of roman marble so they all had a marble tones and it was just it was emotional because he wasn't it was the first one he wasn't there for so it was a tribute to him and in rome and it was hot and the girls were wearing wigs and we were all thinking oh god this is gonna be a nightmare actually it was magnificent because it it it magically when the sun went down the cooler air came in and the lights at the coliseum came on it.

18:44It was just, it was magical. I keep using that word magical because Rome just is, isn't it? I think I remember seeing the pictures of that. I was lucky enough to be invited to one of his shows in Paris, but it was the one when he was ill just before he died. It was magnificent. I mean, it really was. The Alpine one. It was incredible. But I was so excited to see him because he wasn't well. But it was wonderful. And then we had lunch at the Ritz. They were spectacles weren't they? It was like a big film production. Yeah, it really was. And it was all kind of dismantled in and out in a week or so or a couple of weeks.

19:24I know, I know. Let's go on to food and drink. It's so much part of travel. Where do you like eating? What do you like eating? What do you drink? Let's just talk about food and travel. I love pasta. So anywhere in Italy is fantastic for pasta. I mean, there's a cafe on the Piazza del Popolo in Rome where you can just sit and eat the pasta and watch the amazing Romans go by and the tourists. It's quite fantastic. I love I spend a lot of time in Ibiza during the summer and I love to go around the little churanguitos and there's one at I think it's Ponce de Lio I don't know how the Ponce de Lio I don't know if that's that's how you pronounce it in Spanish where it's literally on a very small bay and you turn up and queue up and have whatever the fish of the day is and a bit of Spanish omelette or tapas or whatever.

20:19And recently I have been partial to, I don't drink. I haven't drank for 30-odd years. But I've recently discovered non-alcoholic gin. Oh, it's brilliant, isn't it? Oh, my God. Tastes exactly like. Seedling. There's one called Garden, which is kind of herpy. It's so nice. And I discovered in the British Airways Lounge at Gatwick. and I had a Tanqueray Sevilla, which was absolutely delicious. So they drink Tanqueray Zero? Tanqueray Sevilla Zero alcohol with a bit of lemon, tonic water and some mint. That's delicious. I've had the Gordon's one, which is fantastic. I mean, it tastes, I think, exactly without the effect.

21:05So, yes, very good. Because actually the champagnes and the wines don't taste as good. I was never really, I didn't really like, it wasn't the taste I was drinking for when I drank, it was the effect, which was the problem. So I now don't drink. But the non-alcoholic, I wouldn't have a non-alcoholic wine or a beer. I don't know, it's not the taste. But the gin is, it just tastes like a nice herbal remedy drink. And it's nice and long and lovely. Do you go to Ibiza because you have a house there? No, I've rented the same house there for almost 20 years. up in the north. I mean, sadly, a lot of the little local independent restaurants are kind of disappearing and they're turning into sort of shishi, far too expensive, bad service, bad food places.

21:55But there's still enough of the local little places to go to where you don't have to book. I go on holiday. I don't want to book a restaurant for Thursday night at nine o 'clock because I don't want me to feel like, no. A restaurant you can have in London. I don't want to go and see everyone that I would see if I went to somewhere in Knightsbridge, you know. So nothing wrong with that, but I'm on holiday and I'm kind of... If I'm local, I like to be... to feel more authentic, you know. Yeah, do what the locals do. Actually, I had Luke Evans on the podcast and he first went to Ibiza and absolutely hated it.

22:30But then he went back again with Kelly Hoppen, who lives there. And he loved it so much that he bought a house. Right, there you go. And, you know, now he... he now does the things that all the locals do he loves it yeah yeah absolutely and do you have anywhere in england that you like going to eat or restaurants or hang out places i mean since i worked in south malton street in the 70s on a saturday morning once a month on a saturday morning we'd save up our pennies and we'd all have about six of us would have breakfast in clarages in the 70s and that clarages thing has always stayed with me because i'd be there i'm there quite a lot doing hair for celebrities when they're staying there and um i got an mbe last year and i took my sister and a couple of friends to clarages and had a little lunch afterwards because it's just it's just clarages isn't it there's nothing there's nothing quite like it that lobby is beautiful oh it's absolutely divine and the service is great it's just it's the perfect quintessential English hotel yeah it really is and when you say you do a lot of celebrities when they're coming over so do you still do that I do I do I mean I don't do as much as I used to do but I have a lot of regular clients that I've known for a long time and quite often they stay there.

23:53I mean, we had Mary Greenwell, myself had a dinner there last year with Cindy Crawford, Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell, and Linda Vangelista, who we all kind of grew up together in the 80s in New York. And we all hadn't been in the same room for probably 25 years. and we had about four hours there where we just sat around a table up in the back and we laughed and we cried and we talked about people who are no longer with us and we talked about stories that the other one didn't know anything about and uh it was really it was really really nice because in this business I've met a lot of people that I'm still very good friends with to this day you may not see each other for a few years but you still have that bond that you make when you're younger you know and you're all coming up through yeah yeah actually when lucinda experiences lucinda i met she was at that time wasn't she i met lucinda when she was assistant to the beauty editor and i was at malton brown and we were doing a beauty shoot for vogue which is when i was at malton brown's how i got first started with vogue and um they used lucid we used Lucinda as a model and we cut her hair and gave her a little sort of punky hairstyle and I think she was about 17 um so I've known Lucinda and loved Lucinda ever since then she's just so fabulous when she did this podcast when I ask you to bring a photograph afterwards you'll tell me your photograph she bought five albums and we we were going through the albums and she was showing me actually photographs and it might well have been the trip you were talking about what water rafting.

25:36And then she was in Ladakh with Cindy Crawford and doing all these incredible things. I mean, those were the days. They really, really were. How lovely. Well, that sounds amazing. Let's go on to your top travel tip. What's your top travel tip? I would say take a few books or a Kindle. I mean, because reading, I can get lost in a book on a plane that gets me through i have no fear of long flights because i'll take two or three books and i will just i could read a whole book maybe two on a long flight and if you have to sit and wait if your flight's delayed read a book not your screen um i think a book is a book is the thing that gets me out of any stress of travel does that make sense yeah i mean i don't if you don't read then that's quite difficult.

26:28And I would say travel as lightly as possible when you're traveling for yourself. No, you don't. I can't do it. I've learned to do that. I try. Yeah. I try, I try, I try. But I totally agree with you on books. And my summer holiday every year is in the south of France and I read a book a day. And it's the only time of year I read. I couldn't agree more. And I actually read biographies and autobiographies. That's what I like. I'm just reading Graydon Carter. so am I so am I isn't it brilliant it's fantastic I've got him and I've got Keith McNally's going at the same time but I send a box of books to the column door where I stay because they're so heavy to carry and then I just leave them for other people to read but it's my joy travel light I take an extra bag with books in it to read it I think I read 14 last year did you in my two weeks yeah just about a book a day yeah yeah yeah but it's the only time that you have that headspace and I don't like reading on the screen because I'm on a screen all day long.

27:26I'm exactly the same. And I actually get, because I'm reading autobiographies or sometimes how-to books, I've got my pen underscoring. My husband's like, oh, you're solving the world again, are you? What have you learned this time? I think for me, it's a book and a diptyque candle. Oh, yeah. Do you take that with you when you travel? I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you? Which one? I like fig, I like bays. I like bays. If I'm going somewhere hot, the tuberose is nice. Yeah, very nice. Do you take the little mini one? No, I take a normal size one. You don't travel light then. Well, it's just one. I'm not going to say two.

27:57And actually, can I ask your advice on hair and travel? Because obviously you've got these amazing products. What should you do to protect your hair? I mean, what's the one thing that you should do? Should a mask or serum or? The best thing you can do to protect your hair is to cover it from the sun, especially if your hair is coloured. A nice scarf or something. Or you could put some oil in it and pull it back into a braid and let that soak into your hair while you're in the sun. But I think you have to really, when you come out of the pool or the sea, rinse your hair with fresh water. So you don't have chlorine.

28:42So you don't have chlorine because the salt and the sun, the combination of that too can be just as damaging as the chlorine. And which one of your new products have you got that you think is the one that you should use? Well, I think during the summer, I think it's really important to treat your hair to a mask at least once a week. I mean, maybe twice a week if you're, or every day if you are in and out of the sea or the pool. so we have we have a deeper love mask and we also have a volumizing mask which is called bigger love so whatever you're looking for either one of those and what's the oil thing you were telling me about that you've got the sustainable we also have a brand new scalp oil which is nourishment for the scalp because i think people are beginning to realize now that what we've known for a long time is that you need to treat your scalp the same way as you treat your face it's all skin and so our products are formulated to a skincare level and the the scalp oil is it's a 10 minute pre-wash it's not a hair oil it's a 10 minute pre-wash oil which you put on your scalp and you wash off after 10 minutes because we need to do the same thing to the skin on our scalp as we do to our face, you know, and we tend to ignore that.

30:13Yeah, we do. And I think a sort of undernourished or too vigorously washed scalp without nourishing it can lead to sort of dry scalp and dandruff and unhealthy hair. Because a healthy scalp is healthy hair. Healthy hair. Well, I color my hair. I blow dry my hair. I would do everything. And I was in Istanbul last week. I would too if I had it. You look marvelous. But when I was in Istanbul the other day, I said I wanted to blow dry. And they said, oh, hair's very dry. We want you to put collagen in it. So they put this collagen in. And then they steamed my hair. And I had all this steam coming out.

30:52It was extraordinary. It felt very soft afterwards, I must say. I'm sure, yeah. I bet it was amazing. Yeah, it was lovely. You're not going to do that yourself, though, are you? No, I'm not. I'm not going to do it back here either. It was because I was away somewhere glamorous. And I thought, let's do that. but you should try some leave-in conditioner maybe if you're on holiday if your hair's really dry have you got one of those we have we've got uh we've got light nourish and light cleanse um that's the shampoo and the conditioner and i think that you can leave a little bit of the conditioner in your hair and comb it through before you blow dry and that will keep it moisturized thank you for the tip and i i asked you your top travel tips so i know the other things but those are very good top tips for me and for everyone listening I think let's go on to your most poignant travel memory well probably some of my most poignant travel memories were I traveled with princess diana for about seven years I met her in 1990 so we I I went to many places but we went to I mean I got to go to places that I would never have been able to go to going hard to choose the most poignant but but we went to Pakistan we went to Mother Teresa's in India in Calcutta and we went to the Taj Mahal with that famous picture of herself and Taj Mahal was closed just for her and her party for the official visit and so we got to see the Taj Mahal with nobody with nobody and probably one of the most poignant ones though was she went to highlight a refugee camp in northern pakistan which was one of the most beautiful and strangest places i have ever been it was just incredible the way that people look is just unbelievable because it's the kind It's the melting pot of all those different cultures and races and just the mix of colors of hair and the colors of clothes.

32:58It was just extraordinary. The refugee camp was, this was early 90s. So it was set up to, I think one of the newsreaders, and I can't remember his name, had set this, had started this refugee camp. and they opened a limb fitting centre for children who'd had their limbs blown off by landmines, which were often, and I learned a lot, which were often planted in children's toys because they didn't want the boys to grow up to be fighters. I mean, it's absolutely horrendous. And watching that whole thing and seeing being on the ground for that and seeing the refugee camps, which were just like miles and miles and miles of tents.

33:50I've seen it on TV, but you kind of get numbed to it. It's just on TV, but actually being in that situation was, I mean, it was really emotional for me, but she was completely, I couldn't understand why she wanted us to go with her, but I then I realized she wanted us to see why we were there doing her hair and getting her and she didn't have a big team we were very very small she did her own makeup but she wanted to see what she did because she it wasn't a jolly it was there and and I was around the back in tears you know because it was it was really really in your face it was really sad but she was a natural nurse if you like a nurturing person wasn't phased outwardly phased by at all i'm sure inside there must i mean could not affect you but um and i used to say to her sometimes you know you look great but no hair and makeup maybe maybe do maybe don't do anything she said these these people don't want to see me coming out of the gym they want to see princess diana so it's she knew the importance of what she was bringing to whatever charity she was highlighting.

35:08And that was a real kind of moment of understanding why people do things, you know. Because a lot of people see things like that and they'll think, oh, it's all ego. It's so not. It's so not. There's a role to play. She really shone a light on the line. Oh, she really did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that walk. Yeah. I remember how she looked. I remember everything, but it really shone a light on that, didn't it? It did. How extraordinary. And you did transform her. I mean, her hair before was, you know, the boof and everything. She wanted the change. It was 1990, and things changed, don't they?

35:49Yeah. And that one photograph, was it Patrick? Yeah, usually. De Marshal. De Marshal, yeah. De Marshal, yeah. And your hairstyle. Was it on the front cover of Vogel? It was. It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it was fantastic. So before I let you go, I asked you to bring a photograph or tell us about a photograph and how that sums up travel. I've got to give you my whitewater rafting photo. Not taken by me, because they have these amazing guys on another raft taking pictures of everyone. And the pictures, I thought, oh, God, they're never going to come out, these pictures. But we weren't allowed to take our phones with us in case we fell in.