Grooming Gang Survivor Tells Her Story

25:41Francis Foster:And one of the things I wanted to ask you, we had another survivor called Dr Ella Hill, I don't know if you're familiar with her, a very long time ago. It's kind of how we first really became aware of decisions, why we've had a lot of people on to talk about it because that's when we really understood the horrific nature of everything that was going on. One of the things that she talked about was that it's difficult to talk about because you get called all the names and whatever, but I think it's really important to talk about. She was talking about the fact that her abusers were very explicit in the fact that they were abusing her because of her race and because she wasn't Muslim, etc.

26:20Francis Foster:Did you ever get anything like that? or did they ever justify why they were doing it or explain to you why they were entitled to or anything or was it just no i wouldn't say they really i'd get called a white slug all the time or they would ring me up going you're coming out you white bitch it was always the white would always get brought up into it yeah but i never really at that time i didn't really see it as a race thing but now probably well i'm not trying to put words i know you're not but i'm just saying it is majority of the people that I know that have been abused aren't Pakistani girls let's just put it that way but also it's the fact that they are using your race in that way implies that there's some kind of moral judgement that's being made where like you are they're entitled to do that do you see what I'm yeah and it's more like even like their family members and things it'll be because of how we dress hmm hmm Well, if your girls ain't showing their skin the way they do, what's that gives you the right to abuse us because we show our skin?

27:28Right. That don't mean... Just because we don't wear the same clothes you do don't mean that gives you the right to then abuse us. Of course. And the thing that I always found horrifying about this, Jade, and you've touched on it a little bit, is the people in that community who just condoned it, and not only condoned it, they covered it up. Yeah. I mean, it's just mind-boggling. You were saying wives would cover it up, girlfriends would cover it up. Yeah, all of them. I don't know why or how they do it, but they're all just as bad as each other. It's actually disgusting, even in the system. I had sex with this bloke before I got taken to the woods and it was, do you know what I mean, in the middle of nowhere, and he took me into the middle of the woods.

28:16a week later I see him walking down High Wycombe High Street in a PCSO uniform yeah and then after me and him clocked eyes and then after I never see him again so I don't know if he got a transfer don't know if he quit his job but even people in the police I mean for people overseas view as a PCSO is a police community support officer it's a level below the police officer

28:42Francis Foster:but there's someone in authority that's supposed to be Yeah, so they all know about it. The police are either getting paid off or they've got them in their police force. Same as teachers in the school I was at. They're all related. Was there anyone who tried to help? No. Not at all? No. Not in the police, not in social services, not in school? No, the police sent me to jail and didn't believe me. Social services, all they'd done was write it on a piece of paper and didn't actually go to the police or do anything for me. the only thing that actually helped me, even though it's the worst experience of my life, the only thing that got me away from it all was going to jail because it got me away from it.

29:24I was locked up so they couldn't pick me up and I could run away with them. Do you know what I mean? It was...

29:31Francis Foster:That's what I was going to ask you. How did you eventually get out of it? Going to jail. Going to jail. And what happened when you came out? I fell pregnant quite soon. So I managed to get away from it all because I had my baby. That's actually really typical. Many of the girls that I've known over the past 15 years, 20 years, their escape route is when they get pregnant. And then they have a purpose and it gives you a sense of belonging and you can love your baby. It kind of removes the vulnerability. And the other side is that you are getting older. These gangs target very young children because by the time that child knows that they are being sexually abused and raped, they're already in too deep.

30:19They carry the shame. The authorities are not stepping in. Yeah, once you get to a certain age, they're not interested in you. Yeah. If you're walking down the road wearing a school uniform or looking young and vulnerable, they'll scream and shout at you. As soon as you hit like 21 and actually got some age to you, then it is crazy. It is crazy. the attention you get when you're 14 to the attention you get when you're an adult by these sort of people. So they're deliberately targeting vulnerable children? Yeah, yeah, 100%. Even after, I was still living in High Wycombe with my babies, but I'd walk past my rapists every day.

30:56They'd be walking out the shop going, hi, it's my Jade. And I'm like, I nearly killed myself. And that's why I moved out of Wycombe because I couldn't physically walk past them every day. It took me to have two kids and nearly kill myself to get me away from them all. Because it was just traumatising every day of my life. Walking to the shop, they'll drive past you, still pre-ing on you. They're just traumatising you every day. I mean, you know, for me, the abusers themselves, they need to be dealt with. But the neglect of the authorities, that for me is what's driven me. because those in power, police, social services, they know what's going on.

31:36And by not acting, they're sentencing another child to what Jade went through.

31:41Francis Foster:Maggie, just explain that a little bit more. What do you mean when they say they know what's going on? That these were not mistakes. These were systemic failures. And I believe fully from the top level of government that they were telling police forces not to do anything about these gangs. and nobody will convince me any different. This is decades of neglect. You know, you only have to look back at... There are some people who have spoken out. You know, I remember one of the first was Anne Cryer. You know, she was an MP and was calling out in Parliament about Pakistani abusers in Keithley in Yorkshire.

32:23She was accused of being a racist. She kind of was haunted out of Parliament. nobody wanted to act so why why and they've they've abandoned generations of children to the trauma that Jade is just beginning to recover from but you can see it will never go completely but as a country it's the duty of police and social workers to protect children

32:53Francis Foster:how much of this do you think Like, Jade, you mentioned this, that you were like the problem child. You'd run away. You come from a difficult family background, et cetera. How much of this is just it's easier to blame it on a problem child than to actually deal with the fact that there's a complex crime involving numerous people, et cetera. And it's just easier to just, oh, you blame on the kid and you kind of move on. Is that what was going on here as well? Yeah, I don't think that that's possible now because the country now, you know, I've been speaking about it for 15 years. The country, the public now know that this is a real problem and that it has been a systemic failure.

33:38So you can't blame children now for their own abuse, but I've always felt you couldn't. But they got away with it for so long by hiding it, brushing it under the carpet. You know, children like Jade don't matter. And it's as though there was collusion from everybody in those positions. It's a lot cheaper to blame a child like Jade than it is to prosecute maybe how many abusers did you have? Over 100. You know, you prosecute 100 men, you've got complex investigations you've got court costs, you've got lawyers they're not going to do that if they can discredit Jade. Jade will never get justice for her abuse Because I'm a criminal now She's been discredited If she ever went to court they would say that she is not a credible witness

34:26Francis Foster:Have any of the men who did this to you been prosecuted? None And the funny thing is now the Thames Valley Police told the journalist that they had no acknowledgement of me Thames Valley Police turned up on my door the other day in my help to investigate child sexual exploitation between 2008 and 2011 when it was happening to me because they have information that I've got information for them and that's because of the media work of course so this is why I'm wondering whether maybe I'm being naive here and you'll probably correct me but is there maybe hope that with all the media attention now actually there will be some justice?

35:09For Jade? Yes. I don't even want to go through it. I gave them DNA 18 years ago. I cannot now go through that for another six years for them to be sentenced to four years in jail when I've done nearly 20 years of trauma, 20 years of waking up every day crying because of the abuse I went through. Scared to leave my house. I have anxiety. I can't leave my house. I have trouble with relationships. Because I don't trust anyone. I can't get into taxis on my own. Like, there's so much stuff that, yeah.

35:43Francis Foster:You probably just want to get on with your life. Of course I do. You've got three kids. I wanted to work with vulnerable kids, and I can't do that because of what I'm classed as now. This is such an injustice on so many levels. It really is horrific. And it's disgusting that this has been allowed to go on for so long. And to so many people. And the worst thing is, it's not just me. I know. There's untold girls out there that are going through the exact same thing as me. And this is why we need to try and make change now, because I can't physically let another girl go through what I went through.

36:15I can't have another girl out there for another 18 years waking up crying every day because they feel like shit for what they've put you through. Because it's not just the perpetrators that have done this to me. It's the police, it's social services, it's the court. People that sent me to jail, it's all of them. CPS, everyone. I mean, when I first met Jade, how many years ago was that? Two. Yeah, in Euston Station. I mean, Jade's upset now. You couldn't speak, could you? No. You know, you carried all this guilt, all this shame, all this hiding from the world. Wouldn't admit what had happened. And she came.

36:51I started a charity because of children like Jade. But to see her blossoming, and I know she's upset now, But to see her, to go from somebody who hid from the world to finding a voice, to recognising. From day one, I said to my team, you have done nothing wrong. This is not your fault. You have been failed. You believe that now, don't you? But she's had a year and a half of emotional support through the charity. We all believed in her. You've told your story to the Channel 4 documentary. and that journey of being believed and being supported has led to her recovery and now finding a voice and knowing she's done nothing wrong.

37:38But the state doesn't provide that support. Without us, Jade would still be where she was two years ago and every child like Jade is in that place. You know, she's got a seven-year wait. Yeah, I've been trying to wait to get on the trauma calls since I was 25. I'm now 32. and I still haven't been put on a trauma course. I started a trauma course in September because Maggie's managed to put me on it. NHS has not helped me at all with anything, with my mental health. I don't do anything. We're a charity, so we're not a state agency. We exist because of donations.

38:14Francis Foster:Maggie, tell everybody about the charity. It's their... What's it called? The Maggiolifer Foundation. The Maggiolifer Foundation is absolutely amazing. I signed up to them two years ago, and if it weren't for me, I wouldn't be here now, like where I am at this point of my healing process now. I've had a year and a half of emotional support, one phone call every week. I've done a trauma-focused workshop. I'm now going on a 12-week trauma course. Like, the foundation is amazing. The best support I've had. And, you know, we give emotional support, but Jade's also been supported on the advocacy side and she shared her story with Baroness Casey.

38:55You know, I brought a team of, a group of 10 survivors together that she spoke to and she delayed publication of her report to include their voices because voices like Jade are hidden. The establishment do not want her to find a voice, to share these experiences. But as a police officer, I have seen this repeatedly and lives are destroyed, but they can recover. And in the absence of the state providing that, which they should be, you know, Jade's recovery should be a priority. Not, you know, well, there's so many things that we as a country waste money on when children like Jade do not get the help that they need.

39:42So we're trying to make it better because I do think that every victim, every child that's been through what Jade has been through can get better, but they can't do it on their own. So supporting individuals like Jade in the foundation is critical, but I want to change the system. And Jade is part of that work for change now because I can't tell Jade's story. Your story is so important, but it's important that you tell it. my job is to join the dots and to show that jay's isn't one isolated story she is one of thousands and and that's why we have to change the system it's really important that you're doing that

40:26Francis Foster:maggie um the maggie oliver foundation i really encourage everybody to to go and support it because it's clearly making a massive difference and jade just so you know we have lots of people in the studio some of them are really famous and whatever they all a lot of them come in super nervous and for you to come and tell your story the way you're telling it's really admirable and And thank you for doing that. Thank you. Yeah. So, Maggie, let's talk a little bit more about the thing that you talk about, which is, of course, that Jade's not the exception, unfortunately. No, no, no. Right. So is this still going on, first of all?

40:58Francis Foster:Are there still grooming gangs in this country? I mean, perhaps that's Jade, you know. You tell me. Yeah, 100%. 100 % it's still going on. I met someone recently that has come over to me and asked me, because a girl has recently been arrested for the same thing I've been arrested for. There are girls still hiding in toilets, on the phone crying to their school workers for help to get out of the situation. Like now. This is going on right now. There's girls reported missing right now. Guaranteed locked in a house being abused. 100 % I know. A million percent I could put my life on it. I mean, Jade was involved in the recent Channel 4 documentary And that brings this problem right into the current time on cases that we're involved in in the foundation.

41:46You know, cases that have been reopened because they were failed the first time around. You know, girls are waiting six years later. They've cooperated with the police six years ago. They're still waiting for their abusers to be charged. Their lives are on hold again. The police have actually done very little. I mean, I'm thinking of Chantel, for instance, because some of your listeners will have watched that documentary. She identified some of her abuses four years ago. They're not even on police bail. They're out walking the streets. So I would say that we've got the authorities saying how, you know, I remember the chief constable saying, as sure as night follows day, if anybody came to us today, they would not be treated the way that Jade is.

42:35But that's not the reality of what we see in the foundation. I think there is now awareness throughout the whole country. There is outrage. There is awareness. And they're still talking the talk because they can't do anything else. But when it comes to walking the walk and putting the resources in and dealing with each individual victim who needs the help, it's still potluck in what you get. There is no right to have your case investigated properly. There's a lack of police experience. There's a lack of police numbers. We've got cases that are four or five years wait for a trial. So the system is on its knees.

43:16And I'm, you know, myself together with, you know, victims and survivors like Jade, we're trying to push for the changes that are needed to prevent this continuing again and again and again.

43:29Francis Foster:You say there's outrage, and I think it's true, but whenever we have these conversations, I just think there's not enough outrage. I really don't. Well, it's taken over my life. Hearing stories like this every day, somebody has to shout about it. And I think through those stories, very, very slowly, raising awareness is the first point in pushing for change. There are definitely more survivors coming forward, which is what we needed. Because obviously one person coming to sing, you're not going to hear them. But when you've got a choir behind you, you can't not hear it. So I feel like the more survivors we're getting, the better.

44:13Because we have to be heard. Not all of us could be lying or joking. We've got to be heard listening to at some point. I think people are listening to you and I do think that the country hears that. What I don't see is a real determination from those at the top to bring change. They will talk the talk and then as soon as the media spotlight turns away, they carry on and do nothing. So for me, my aim is to give survivors like Jade a platform because their voices are what will educate people. But my priority is to force those in power to change. And I don't believe that will happen without personal accountability.

44:59I honestly and truthfully believe, Constantine, that if a chief constable finds themselves in a criminal court charged with misconduct in a public office, I think every single person in a high position today will look at their own position and think that might be me in 10 years time. I might be in prison for gross neglect of duty. And that's how I think we will see change. Because what happens now is when something happens, the whole of the machine gathers around the public institutions because they're more concerned about reputational damage than they are in bringing change. So everything is geared.

45:41And this isn't me speculating. I know this because of what I've seen and what I've learned. Corruption is rife. The cover-ups go to the top of these institutions. And if you're at the bottom and you're moaning, they don't take it seriously. But the higher up you start to target, the more of a threat it is and the establishment gathers around them. So it is a battle. But I do think it's one we have to win. I think we have to have personal accountability for these. These are not mistakes. This is systemic failure. It's neglect. It's deliberately turning away from generations of vulnerable children because they couldn't be asked.

46:21These kids didn't matter. They weren't going to spend the money. They are collateral damage, and that's where we need to see action. So we've become closer to that, I think, over the past five years. But, you know, when I look at the National Abuse Inquiry that we've had, it's called ICSA, Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse, you know, that took seven years, hundreds of millions of pounds, dozens, hundreds of victims, survivors like Jade, 20 recommendations three years ago, not one of those has yet been implemented. They're sitting on a shelf in the Home Office gathering dust. What's the point in having a national inquiry when you don't implement those recommendations?

47:12So the foundation, my charity, we are taking the government to court under a judicial review to try to force them to implement those. Those recommendations don't go far enough, but they are a start. And if you know that one of them is to have a children's minister, we don't have a children's minister in the cabinet to legally prevent pain compliance of children in care. Do you know that a child who's 13 can be pinned down and tortured if their staff considers that they are at risk? That's still not outlawed in law. So the judicial review will try to force the government to implement those 20 recommendations.

47:53We can't force them to, but what we can force them to do is to say that they're not going to implement them. So rather than this smokescreen about pretending and kicking the ball further down the road so nothing happens, that's the first step. The second step, I'm involved in something called Action for Accountability, where there's a team of lawyers and barristers now looking at the evidence to see where there is evidence of gross criminal neglect, misconduct in a public office, where we can bring a private prosecution. Because quite honestly, the CPS will never prosecute a state body. They will never do that.

48:35So we have to be creative about how we push this ball further down the road. So I'm trying my best to, the foundation now is very well developed. We've got a fantastic team. So the individual help is there without me. My knowledge and expertise should go to that. So Baroness Casey, who came not only to speak to Jade, but we had a meeting, didn't we, in a room. She listened. Her report reflects their voices. She has also stated in that report, as a result of Jade's story, that she is going to be behind us and we're going to be behind her in making it impossible for an abuser who rapes a 13-, 14-year-old child to not be charged with rape.

49:25Francis Foster:So it would be a statutory offence of rape. If a 30-year-old man has sex with a 13-year-old, 14-year-old, 15-year-old child, they will not be able to argue that that child consented. And that's quite right. You know, but you remember when I'm not going to go over old ground because I told this story when I was with you last time. But Jade kind of found out about me and the foundation through the drama Three Girls because Jade could be Amber really without me. Amber would have gone to prison. But I knew the inside story. But on that case, there was also Ruby. You know, a fetus was found in the police property system.

50:07we had DNA. She was 12 years old when he started to rape her, 13 years old when she got pregnant. Even he was not charged with rape. He was charged with conspiracy to commit sexual activity with a child because they didn't want to have a debate in court about whether or not she consented. She couldn't consent. But if this law comes in, that man who was 43 years old, he was out of prison in three years. he was back in Rochdale and she bumped into him in the supermarket. That, for me, is horrific. That's not justice and that's not right. And so if this law, which actually, that would give you such an enormous sense of pride for the rest of your life, that your case has affected the situation for every other child victim.

51:00And that's what has given Jade her voice and that's what I want for every victim. That's what makes me want to carry on. And that's why we're a team. I'll scream and shout now till the day I die. Do you know what I mean? So that is a really important, life-changing decision. We've still got to get the government to do that, but we will be fighting for that. And now it's in an official report. It gives it extra weight. I didn't need Baroness Casey to tell me that that's wrong. But the government do, apparently, because they don't listen to individuals. so those changes are really important and my voice is best used in those platforms but bringing survivors like Jade into those conversations so that you can share what happened to you and every you know there's lots of Jades but you've found your voice many not as far along the road are they as you and it's like with the little bits of story that I told you of what I went through and everything that's just like little trips and traps.

52:03I was getting abused for nearly two years, near enough every day, if not every day, every weekend. So it's like that was only happening. Them scenarios happened near enough every day of my life, for the two years of my life, should I say. You know, I'm listening to this story and it has real parallels with abusers like Jimmy Savile, abusers like Cyril Smith, who was a notorious paedophile. He was a Liberal Democrat. In Rochdale. Because they targeted children's homes. Yeah. So it's not just about grooming gangs. There is a pattern of how these type of abusers actually operate. If you could just go into that a little bit.

52:43You're absolutely spot on because paedophiles, child abusers, target vulnerable children. So wherever there are vulnerable children, you will find child abusers. So whether it's in, you know, outside children's homes. Outside schools. Outside schools, outside, you know, they'll infiltrate kids clubs. They will target, but, you know, Jimmy Savile, you know, he went into hospitals where there were disabled people. When I've been in the police, I've had allegations, been aware of allegations in mental health institutes because nobody will believe that person in a mental health institute. So that's where the predators go.

53:26but the you know I think I said to you before Francis that the criminal justice system the law and prosecutions will never get rid of this and I think it's really important that every individual who sees it takes responsibility for doing something about it so if all those social workers or all the people in the children's home that knew what was happening had acted they could have change that the police officers that you went to have a personal responsibility to act it cost me my job because I saw this and I couldn't believe what I was seeing and but the further down this road I've got the more horrified I've become about how people turn a blind eye and think it's not my responsibility well if you care about children it's all of our responsibilities but we shouldn't have to lose give your job up to speak the truth and that's why i think the only way i think you were saying before about whistleblowers should be rewarded that's never going to happen

54:37Francis Foster:yeah we said that before we came on air but it's something actually i heard somebody talk about that really resonated with me which is the way to prevent things like this across all kinds of different areas of life actually is to incentivize whistleblowers with financial rewards if you got a million pounds for coming out and revealing this stuff was happening right but but not only would you be happy that the police would know yeah the authorities would know they would know that if we're allowing things to happen that shouldn't be happening someone is going to come forward because they're going to get a big payout and by the way that's probably a hell of a lot cheaper than everything's going to happen now.

55:17Francis Foster:The money is the most important part of this obviously, but you know what I'm saying, right? So there are solutions to this but ultimately I think you put a finger on it when you say that these institutions, they don't want scrutiny. They don't want this stuff to be unraveled in this way. And what they do, they operate through the fear factor and when I started to, when I first saw what I saw, I actually naively thought it was one lazy officer who wasn't doing his job and I didn't want to be, I didn't want to kind of mix anybody a bottle, if you like. But as I sat there at home thinking, you know, what am I going to do?

55:55I was threatened. You know, I thought I'd go to prison for speaking out. I was told that everything you know, you only know because you're a police officer, you've signed the Official Secrets Act, you do not share it. I faced that fear and I went public, not because I had any big plan. I just wanted to be able to look myself in the mirror and know I'd done the best, my best. So when my children switch the telly on 30 years later and there's all this scandal about Rochdale, they're going to say, why did my mum not say anything? That's what drove me. But in order to speak out, I spent two years as a serving police officer facing my fear and I accepted that I might go to prison.

56:38But I knew that I was telling the truth and I knew that I was doing the right thing. but most people you know you've got a mortgage you've got children they can't take that risk and they're never going to incentivize it I took power away from them by resigning from the police then they had no hold over me but I do believe that personal accountability if we can make an example of one, two, ten public servants we'll have the same as that Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema, so I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about ebglis?

57:21Ebglis, Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EbGliss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to EbGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.

57:52You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EbGliss. Before starting EbGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EbGliss and visit EPCLIS.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. Maggie, and this is me being conspiratorial, but it seems to me that this is almost, you know, when somebody has been diagnosed with cancer and it's too late and they do the checks and the cancer is spread everywhere. It seems to me that with this type of cases that you've been speaking about, Jade, and you've been talking about more broadly, Does this go right the way to the top?

58:34Has this been a cover-up from the very, very, very top? I believe so. I 150 % believe so.

58:42Francis Foster:You're both nodding very, very. Why are you so convinced? I'm not disputing, I'm just asking. No, I just, you know, at the beginning of this journey, I didn't believe that. But my journey of the past 15 years, the similarities between every area in this country, So whether it's Yorkshire or Manchester or Cumbria or Thames Valley, they're identical. They are identical. And I do believe that it's been, I mean, I think I've referred several times to Nazir Afsal was the chief prosecutor on the Rochdale case. He's a spokesperson now who goes out and does a lot of interviews. he spoke publicly about a circular that was sent round from the Home Office allegedly in 2008 to every police force telling them not to investigate these grooming gangs.

59:39He said that publicly. He has now withdrawn that. But I do not believe for one moment that he said that without having seen that circular. And I believe that he has now been silenced because he's been told to be silenced. That would show that you can't find that circular anywhere. But I believe that this has been, I think that there was two factors that have fed into it. The fact that you girls didn't matter. And the second one was the racial dynamics of the abusers. And they didn't want to rock the multicultural boat. And the third part is the money. It's a lot cheaper to send Jade to prison than it is to investigate a whole very organised network of paedophiles.

1:00:24So those three things have meant it's convenient to throw kids like Jade on the bonfire. And who's going to say anything? And the reality is that other than a very small handful of people like Anne Cryer, like me, like Andrew Norfolk, most people have kept quiet about it. So actually it paid off. They have saved billions and billions of pounds and they have sacrificed children like Jade on the altar of political correctness. So I think those days are done. You can't sweep it back under the carpet now. It's out there and nobody is going to be silenced. We're at the next step now where they're trying to pretend they're going to do something.

1:01:04Actually, they're not doing very much. And that's where the battle now lies.

1:01:10Francis Foster:Have you had any contact with the government? I've talked to most of them. I've met Rishi Sunat, Swala Bravman, Priti Patel. They talk the talk, but they go off the call. they don't walk the walk. What about the Labour government? Sorry, Frances. The current government. Have they been interested at all? They've never wronged me. There was a meeting. And actually, you know what? I don't buy into the bullshit anymore. I'm fed up of having pointless conversations with people. It's a waste of my time. I would rather focus my mind on action. I've been down that road. I've put my trust in these people.

1:01:50and I've wasted years doing it. I now look at, you know, we look at, we were talking, weren't we, on the train, there's a lot of survivors have been to Parliament yesterday, the day before. I was in that place maybe eight, nine, ten years ago and I thought, oh, it's great, they're going to talk to me, they're going to do something. I don't need another inquiry to tell me what's wrong, but I respect that survivors want their voices heard. But I'm not needed in that conversation. My knowledge is needed on the next bit, which is forcing change, and they are not going to do it because they think it's the right thing to do.

1:02:26They're only going to do it if they are backed in a corner and there is no way where else to wriggle. So that's what I believe. Isn't that appalling? Isn't that just appalling? It's disgusting. Girls have been raped and sexual abused on an industrial scale, And the only way they're going to get justice is if the politicians, in your words, get backed in a corner and there's no way to wriggle out of it. That's true. I, you know, on my life, I honestly believe that is the truth. And this action for accountability, I think that is the only way you find your own evidence. You bring a private prosecution.

1:03:11You show the country what they are capable of. And, you know, today we're having this conversation when we've just seen what they've done with all the Afghanistani, you know, lying and getting a super injunction. Look at the post office scandal. You know, all those people who went to prison and they pretended that, you know, the government pretended that there was nothing wrong. It was, I don't know how these people sleep in bed at night.

1:03:37Francis Foster:I don't either. I don't get it. And this is the thing, right? I think we, horrific as all of the things you described. I think we all accept that institutions make mistakes. Problems happen. But it's the lying about it. It's the covering up. It's the pretending it didn't happen. It's the victimizing of the already victimized. That is just, I don't know. Has this changed your understanding of human nature? You want to live in a world where you think most people are decent, good people who are doing their best and the right thing. Do you still think that's true? I think ordinary people are generally decent.

1:04:17I believe that as people start to climb this slippery pole up the ladder of whether it's getting to chief constable or getting to be the prime minister or the home secretary, you are being tested at each step up that ladder. And you get to a point where you have to decide, am I going to go with what my conscience tells me is right or am I going to protect this organization? And if they can't protect the organisation, they don't get to the top of that slippery pole. And that's what I honestly believe. I feel like the further you get up that pole, the more corrupt it gets. It's interesting you say that.

1:04:52Francis Foster:It's interesting you say that because I'm from Russia, as you know. And in Russia, no person at the top of the power dynamic is immune from being charged with tax evasion or other crimes or whatever. mostly because if you are allowed to get to that level, they know you've committed all those things already. So they've tested you for being liable to be exposed in this way. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. And I guess what you're saying is it's kind of like that in some ways. I would put my life on it. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that that is true. And I've come to that conclusion through a lot of pain and a lot of depression.

1:05:34because I wish I didn't know it. The other thing that is in my mind a lot now is there is an element of me that is a bit frightened because, you know, when you're not wrapped in any cages, nobody bothers about you. I found myself in a position where I want things to change for children. We need them to change. They have to change, but they're not willingly going to change it. And I want somebody else to pick up this mantle and fight this battle. but I don't see anybody else really, you know, my experience and my learning of 20 years doesn't come in two minutes. So we've got people now like Rupert Lowe, for instance, talking, but he hasn't got the knowledge.

1:06:15And I spoke to him in January. I think he's a decent guy. I think what he's saying is really connecting into the public psyche. But you need more than a desire to change things. You've got to have evidence. and you've got to have people who come to you because they trust you. So I think we're going in the right direction. Yeah. But all we can do is try. I honestly believe that the system is corrupt. I mean, was it Dominic Cummings the other week who was talking about, you know, when Andrew Norfolk did the expose in the end of 2010 because I was on the Rochdale job, that the cabinet tried to get that story blocked, didn't they?

1:07:05And Dominic Cummings and some others were prepared to go to court to argue the toss that it was true, and that's the only reason they let The Times publish it. The problem is it's taken Dominic Cummings 15 years to say that. He should have said that at the time, and that's what you don't get. What do you think this case, Jade's story, tells us about the UK as a whole? Because I'm listening to it and I'm going to be honest, it's not making me think good things about the country, the education system that I've worked in for over a decade. I mean, what do you think it says about all of this? It says a lot of corruptness, is what it says.

1:07:53I have no words. I actually generally have no words. I think we've lost our way. I think we've lost our way as a country. And I think that the country has woken up to that. I do. I honestly feel wherever I go, many people recognise me, I have yet to have one conversation with somebody who comes up to me and says, you're talking a load of bullshit. not one person in 15 years i think that the cat's out of the bag um i don't know how we're going to reverse all the damage that's been done i don't think you can but what you can do is what you

1:08:38Francis Foster:are doing which is try and make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else number one but maggie talk to us about you know we have people who watch this show who who may be able to to do things about this in the future. What needs to happen? What needs to be done? What are the practical steps that can be done? A, to, number one, make sure this doesn't happen to any more children. I think one of the first things, and I said it in an interview, I had a bit of a septu with somebody, I think this is a non-party political issue. It should be. Yes. So they're like big kids in Parliament scoring points and, you know, they're like little kids.

1:09:19in a bloody private school, they are running the country. You have got children's lives in your hands. So stop messing about. Accept that we are failing children and look at how we put it right because you can do it. You know, all the money that has been wasted on COVID, you know, lining pockets of people and the cronies, if that had gone into child protection, into children's homes, into policing. You know, we're on our knees because nobody's invested in our public services. So we need investment in public services. But in this issue, we need cross-party collaboration with people, with survivors like Jade, with experts like me, who genuinely want to change things.

1:10:07What happens, though, is they listen. They don't really want to change it because they won't put the money in and they hope it's going to go away, but it won't. I believe where we're such a multicultural country, I feel like they don't want to do anything for the votes as well. So like where because it's such a high, there's such a high percentage of Pakistani people in this country. I believe that they do it for the votes and they don't want to be racist because they're not going to get the votes. I personally believe because if they started doing all these rape gangs, all these Pakistani rape gangs, all these Pakistanis ain't going to vote for them.

1:10:49So then they're not going to get the votes because there's a high percentage of that culture in this country. I mean... I personally believe that 100%. I mean, I've tried to take this conversation further than just the grooming gangs because as we see unprecedented levels of immigration to this country, The vast majority, and it's a very emotive subject. Yeah. You see all these boats arriving and bringing all these young men in who don't share our values. They are actually of the mindset of Jay's rapists. They're not educated. They don't speak the language. They are being put in hotels all around the country.

1:11:35They have different beliefs in their country. Yeah, they believe that a child... They believe, some of them believe that if a girl starts their period at the age of nine, that it's okay to then marry them off. And that they're old enough to have sex at the age of nine. No, no, you're not. That's absolutely disgusting. In this country, at 16, and even that, it's still young. It should be 18. Yeah, so those attitudes and those belief systems and different cultures, we can't allow those to flourish in the UK. We can't. But we have to have the conversations to work out how we're going to address it.

1:12:09We all know that there's bad in everyone. We all know that there's white paedophiles. We all know that there's black paedophiles, Chinese paedophiles. They're everywhere. Wherever you go, you're going to get a paedophile. What we're trying to say as survivors of rape gangs is that we all got abused by that one thing. It's not a racial thing at all. I've got my children. I've got two children that are caught Pakistani. Yeah. So it's not a race thing at all. I'm so glad you said that. It is who we got abused by. Yeah. How can I be racist when I've got Pakistan children? Yeah. No, I'm so glad... I mean, it's definitely not a race thing.

1:12:46It's a factual thing of... That's really important. Oh, yeah.

1:12:49Francis Foster:That's what I'm saying. I'm so glad you said that, Jade, because you're right that we live in a very multicultural... I don't like the term multicultural society. We live in a multi-ethnic society. There are many different people from different groups. But actually, we shouldn't have a multicultural society. which have one culture, which is British culture. And within that, it's really important that we're super honest. Like, I'm an immigrant myself, right? And we should be very honest and say not all immigrants are the same. Different cultures are different. Different cultures have different value systems, right?

1:13:19Francis Foster:And most importantly, if something is being done by one particular group, we should be very careful not to scapegoat those people. But at the same time, we should not shy away from the reality. And that's really important. And otherwise, that's when you actually are going to encourage racism. And that's what's happened here. And that's what's happened here. Yeah. Right. We should be very, very honest. If one particular group is overrepresented, we have to find out why that is. Now, we've had people on the show to talk about the fact that it's not just Pakistanis, but it's actually Pakistanis from a very particular area of Pakistan, which is perhaps culturally more backward.

1:13:52Francis Foster:It's mountainous. So it's isolated. That's kind of repeated through history. Mountainous cultures tend to be much more backward in that way. So we've just got to have these conversations honestly so that justice happens in cases like this, but also so that we don't have these problems in the future. And also, if we are going to live together in one country, black, white, brown, whatever, the only way to do that is to be honest. Because the moment you start covering things up, that's when people start having ideas about things like that, generalizing. And this has been a really terrible thing that happened to you and to other girls.

1:14:28Francis Foster:but it's also a terrible thing for our country. I mean, what I would say, Consulists, I mean, when I first started speaking out, it's true that the vast majority of the abusers in these gangs are Pakistani Muslim men. Those who are not are still Muslim, but they can be Afghanistani or Iranian or from Iraq, but like you say, from very, kind of from an underclass in those countries. They have a different belief system and they feel entitled that they can rape vulnerable children. So we have to open up those conversations. But if people come to this country, the laws of this country are what we live by and we cannot avoid the difficult conversations.

1:15:17And what's happened with this? It's been brushed under the carpet. that's when extremists hijack a conversation because nobody else is brave enough to have them. But I see in this country at the moment, freedom of speech is critically important to me. I would speak to anybody from any faith, any background, any belief system, left, right, middle, wherever, because you learn and you compromise. But what's happened with this is there have not been those conversations. I was having them when nobody else would speak. I remember going on the Today program and they were talking about Asian grooming gangs.

1:16:00And I said, well, hang on a minute. You know, they're not from Thailand or Japan or China. They are predominantly Pakistani Muslim men. The other key part, just before I forget, because it goes out my head. The other key part, which is one of the big things I'm fighting for, is that there is no mandatory recording of the data around sexual abuse, any kind of data. So nobody can provide statistics. And the reason they've done that, I highlighted that to the Home Office in 2013. The reason they don't is because they don't want the facts to show what the truth is. We know what the truth is. We know what the truth is now.

1:16:39The stats are out. But it's taken 15 years for me to persuade people that that's the reality. Why are they not, you know, you'd know how many burglaries there were in your street, wouldn't you? It would just be there on a database. This is a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters.

1:16:57Francis Foster:And they think they're helping people, but they're not helping. They're not helping. And they're not protecting the people they think they're protecting. Like there is a, the taxi driver that I use in my town, it's an Afghani company. Yeah. My wife and son use their taxi company all the time. If my wife was passed out in the back of a taxi, there's no one I'd rather drive her than the guy, because he's a great guy, and a lot of the people that work with him, they're wonderful people. But they are precisely the people that are going to suffer from cover-ups like this, because people will make generalisations if people cover things up.

1:17:29Francis Foster:That's why honesty is so important in this. I mean, the other part of that is in my charity, and actually even when I was in the police, but now in the charity, We have women from those communities coming to us for help because within those communities, women are a second class citizen. Many of them don't speak English. They are very isolated. They are there is abuse within that community, but it's hidden. You know, we've got inter family marriages where there is a very, very high percentage of very disabled children. Those conversations have to be had. And, you know, we're not helping those women in that community.

1:18:11They come to us because we are seen as outside of their community. We're safe. And even in the police, I was working on cases where I remember one case where a girl, a young girl was an eyewitness to a murder and she was not allowed officially to speak to the police. So those are conversations we have to have because there's good and bad everywhere. but when they are bad and they are raping children, I'm sorry. If you want to call me racist for saying that, call it me, but I'm not. It's about child protection. It's about the law. It's about the laws of our country and we have to stand up for those laws and those who are looking at being voted in, like you've just said, if they won't do their job properly, we have to do it for them and expose what's going on.

1:18:59If we went to a different country and done what they're doing to our country, we'll get killed straight away. Like, we need that here. So, like, our government, sorry to say, are pussies compared to every other country. Like, even our justice system are pussies compared to every other country. They wouldn't think twice about shooting us if we went over there and raped one of their kids.

1:19:23Francis Foster:No. So why do these lot don't even get sentenced for two years? Half of them walk or get NFA. They don't even want to look into it. You get longer for putting a naughty tweet on Twitter, don't you? Yeah, it's a joke. You know, the girl who, what was her name? Lucy Conley. Lucy Conley. She's in prison, putting in that little tweet. The guy who got Ruby pregnant, he was out of prison. You know, she's a 13-year-old child with special needs. We had a fetus. She was out of prison in just over, he was out of prison in just over three years. It just makes my blood boil, and we have to change the direction of travel.

1:19:58Because it's a really important point you made there about these abusers and within their own community, because if somebody is a paedophile who is a rapist, chances are he's not going to channel those instincts in one particular direction. He is going to be a threat wherever he goes. That's on the streets. That's our children's homes or schools. And that's also within his own home. Absolutely. And the fact that these people weren't prosecuted means that actually you're also making vulnerable children in that community. Absolutely. You're putting their lives in danger. Absolutely. I think it's about priorities at the end of the day.

1:20:43And, you know, we have to have other conversations about what kind of people are in the prisons. You know, what crimes do we not need prison for? And, you know, I would argue that Lucy Connolly shouldn't be in prison. That's my opinion. You know, we are using the law, you know, last year in the charity, we'd spotted a pattern of behavior where vulnerable women, actually, and a couple of men, were being unlawfully arrested, unlawfully strip searched because they were daring to challenge the police about their investigations. So they were targeted. They're the kind of things that we need to be stopping.

1:21:17You know, free up the prison places for pedophiles and those who are destroying lives. You know, I mean, a conversation around drugs is another one I think we need as a country at some point, because many addicts will rob a phone because they're an addict. You know, we've got to have difficult conversations, but that costs votes. And that's why they won't have them. You know, we need more prison places. We need a better criminal justice system. We need social services to protect children. You know, children of 11 shouldn't be put in a children's home with kids of 15 and 16 that are already very, very damaged.

1:22:06There's so many layers to this, aren't there?

1:22:09Francis Foster:And what we need above all, I think, is honesty. Yeah. People to be honest about things instead of covering them up and pretending they're not happening. Thank you so much, both of you, for coming on. Maggie, you're doing really important work with the Maggie Oliver Foundation. We're not whenever we've had these conversations, we've never put any adverts and we don't like the idea of making money from these type of discussions. So if anybody wants to contribute financially, they should send it straight to the. Just go to our website, Maggie Oliver Foundation dot com. And Jay, thank you for taking the time and sharing your story.

1:22:40Francis Foster:It is a terrible story to share and it's terrible what you went through. But I'm really glad you're doing it, not only because it's getting the word out there for people to really understand what's going on, but also it seems to be making a really good impact on you, actually, to feel more empowered to be able to tell people and prevent this from happening to other people. Thank you for having me. Thank you both. We're going to ask you questions from our supporters that they've submitted, but we really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you. Head on over to triggerpod.co.uk to hear our discussion with your questions.

1:23:10Francis Foster:Are some areas and streets of many of our big cities and towns being made systematically hostile for women by the aggression of, he says, Muslim men? and how do we combat this?

1:23:49Francis Foster:even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending. Zero tears. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.