Our Thoughts on Tommy Interview, Migrant Protests and Haters

18:32Konstantin Kisin:You know, that it's fair that you don't cheat, that it's, you know, that's, you know, be a good sport.

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21:23Francis Foster:And, you know, you and I have talked about this before, but your family immigrant background and my background as well helps to know this. It's not like this everywhere. at all. And this idea that, you know, the high trust society, the Britain, let's be honest, used to be. Yes. Right. I remember how shocked my parents were when they could come, they could come to Britain and they could deposit money in a bank with just a signature or withdraw money from a bank with just a signature or do lots of things with just, oh, just sign here.

21:52Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

21:53Francis Foster:That's how it was in the 90s. Right. Remember that. Now, look, technology has changed and blah, blah, blah. But my point is, in Russia, you'd need to get like five documents with a stamp and a seal and of this and of that to get anything done because otherwise people would take advantage of it. Of course. Because you said you talked about this before, you know, in Venezuela, you were saying if I can screw you over and you let me, well, that's my job to screw you over. Right.

22:19Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, that is how it works. And what's more, you're the idiot because you let yourself be screwed over.

22:25Francis Foster:So you're stupid and I'm the smart one. Do you know, it reminds me of an experience I had once when I used to work as a translator I once translated a contract that was being negotiated as it was being negotiated in the room and I remember after like a full hard days of negotiating between some Russian guys and some British guys the Russian guy at the end they went through they signed everything and at the end there were like empty spaces at the bottom of the page on a couple of pages and the Russian guy went through and like crossed them out so they couldn't be filled in any way. And the other guy, the British guy, looked at it and joked and he went, well, I can see this is a relationship based on trust, Andre.

23:05Francis Foster:And the other guy looked at him and he went, the last time I didn't do this, it cost me$5 million. Because that's how it is. So when we talk about Britishness, including fairness, and by the way, we joke about queuing, Right. But queuing is an incredibly important, tiny little expression of civilization. Yeah. Which is we all agree to play by the system and rules so that it's no longer about who's got the sharpest elbows. That's what civilization actually looks like. Now, if you think about what illegal immigration is, it's fundamentally people queue barging. Yeah. It's queue barging. and on top of that, they're getting into a place into which they're not supposed to be getting into.

23:48Konstantin Kisin:Exactly. It's like we're all queuing, to use the analogy of getting into a nightclub, the one-in-one-out policy that we will talk about, and these people aren't even queuing up. They're not even jumping through. They're just literally going through, barging past the bouncer, going to the bar.

24:05Francis Foster:Getting a couple of free drinks and grabbing the waitress's ass.

24:08Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, and then going and sitting down. And then everybody else is going, well, hang on a minute, is that and our politicians are going well that's fine it's their human rights it's their human rights and more to the point if you get upset about it there's certain people now thankfully they're decreasing in number because the problem is now become so undeniable that they can't actually push back against it anymore but there was a point where like why are you getting upset with the people barging into the nightclub why are you getting upset you must be racist is that it Is it because they're brown or they're Muslim?

24:43Konstantin Kisin:And you're like, well, no, because I don't like people barging in because it is not fair. And for a system to work, for any system to work, there needs to be rules and the rules need to be applied and enforced.

24:57Francis Foster:And by the way, you know, I heard a talking point from one of the people on the protest. She didn't say it to me. She said it to someone else. And she said, well, of course, these people are racist. Look, they didn't have a problem with Ukrainians coming here as refugees. Right. But that isn't how Ukrainians came here. No. Ukrainians applied to come here. I know this because I have Ukrainian friends who've come to Britain as refugees. They applied through the proper process. And those of them that didn't get approved didn't come. They didn't travel to France. They didn't go to Calais. They didn't sleep in a tent or in a forest.

25:30Francis Foster:And they didn't get on a boat. And then they didn't barge into this country illegally. And they weren't brought here by people smugglers. Right. And so this is kind of the thing that people need to understand is the British people. And I think this is worth restating again, even now, even now, even when the country is at fever pitch, even when people are becoming very concerned about this issue, the British people are incredibly welcoming and tolerant of people from other countries. they are incredibly incredibly willing to help and support those in need and you can see it with the fact that we have welcomed hundreds of thousands of people from hong kong from ukraine and from other parts of the world recently where we're like well the country is a war of course we're going to help out right but we what we do not appreciate is people taking the piss and what we don't appreciate as well let's be honest a lot of these people are not refugees yeah they're just not.

26:24Francis Foster:They're not refugees. They're not coming from countries that are at war. They're coming from poor countries. They're coming from countries that are not great places to live. I don't blame them for wanting a better life, right? But the fact is, the reason we have a visa system and an immigration system and the reason we have rules is because we do not want everyone who would like to come here to come here. That's the way a country works, right? That's the point of the rules. Exactly. So people cannot be breaking them.

26:52Konstantin Kisin:They just can't. And this is what people don't understand. So everybody can drink. When I was teaching, I taught in very deprived areas. Very, very deprived areas.

27:02Francis Foster:And I taught kids who were... Francis, you know, you've said that so many times, but I don't think we've ever delved into it. And I think a lot of people don't actually know what that means. Can you paint us a picture of... When you say a deprived area, a lot of people have not taught in those schools. They have not lived in those communities. What do you mean?

27:18Konstantin Kisin:So what I mean is, is that you will go every day into a school, which is minority white, where a lot of the kids, the vast majority, will be on free school meals. A lot of them will be first generation immigrant background, not necessarily from different, not necessarily non-European. There will be Europeans there. But quite a lot of the kids will be from a refugee background. So I taught Iraqi refugees. I taught Syrian refugees. I taught Afghanistan refugees from Afghanistan, little children, as well as a whole plethora of other children. When a child comes from a different part of the world that is non-English speaking, it costs a lot of money to support that child.

27:59Konstantin Kisin:You need to get specialist teachers who are trained to teach English as an additional language. EAL is what it's called. Now, if you don't have that, if you don't put that in place, then what you are effectively doing is dooming a child to failure because you were just dropping him into a classroom with 30 other children, a lot of them who've got a lot of needs because this is the poorest of the poor. So there'll be kids there who are autistic and are sometimes nonverbal. So you've got those types of kids. You've got kids who have got dyslexia. You've got kids who have got really serious, come from deprived backgrounds

28:39Francis Foster:What you're talking about is a lot of them don't have dads around A lot of them have experienced violence in the home Addiction in the home Addiction in the home

28:47Konstantin Kisin:So you've got all of these different types of

28:50Francis Foster:And it's 30 of them in a class

28:51Konstantin Kisin:And it's 30 of them in a class And you've got to teach them And you've got to ensure that they all make progress And you've got kids who potentially have the ability to go to university as well as kids who intellectually are very, very, very low ability and need additional support.

29:09Francis Foster:Yeah, the only reason I was asking is I think it's important for people to understand what you're talking about. You do a really great job of talking about this in your upcoming book, describing all of that stuff in a funny way. But you were saying, you know, you having taught in these deprived areas, it gives you a perspective on this issue.

29:25Konstantin Kisin:It gives you a perspective because what you effectively see is then they bring in these children and these children don't have English as a first language or even a second language. Some of them, they don't even speak English. Now, some of them haven't even been to school for a number of years because they've been refugees. So maybe they lived in Syria and then they've been into a variety of other countries before making their way to Britain. to education, they're two, three, or even five years behind. And then you drop that child into a classroom. And you're going, oh, they're going to be able to perform and access the curriculum like everyone else.

30:07Francis Foster:Well, look, the reality is, my view on that is actually, you know, to the extent that Britain, democratically speaking, wants to have some refugees come. Absolutely. Right. Then we could deal with that. We could get the right support in place. But not when the numbers are like this. Like if we took a thousand Syrians over five years and we made sure that they were from a background that was compatible, maybe they were Christians fleeing persecution in Syria, etc. Then you could put some resources in place to get extra English or whatever it is you need. But when it's like this, when you're basically being swamped, when the number of people coming illegally is the same number that were coming legally 20 years ago.

30:52Francis Foster:At that point, 30 years ago, actually, I'm older than I think in my head, right? 30 years ago. Then at that point, the entire system becomes overwhelmed. And then, by the way, it's not just those children that suffer. I bet you, you had some working class British kids who were probably the worst off of the lot in those classrooms.

31:11Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, absolutely. Right. And they're getting screwed as well. And they're getting screwed because you only have a finite amount of resources. So what eventually happens is that everything gets spread so thinly that the final result is everybody loses because the system simply can't cope. So you can have this utopian worldview in which you say, let's open our borders and let's accept everybody. OK, fine. But who's going to pay for it? Because it costs a lot of money to be able to integrate these children. And I agree we should accept refugees. But what we need to do is have a very honest and direct conversation, even a challenging conversation, I'd say, and go, look, what are the numbers?

31:54Konstantin Kisin:Is it 20 ,000? Is it 50 ,000?

31:57Francis Foster:But let's be honest, Francis, it's not just about the numbers. And this is where we come to our interview with Tommy Robinson, because I thought that we'll talk about a lot. There's a lot to discuss in that interview. but i think the most profound point he made is actually in the sub stack portion of the conversation which people can go and watch if they want to triggerpod.co.uk when we were talking and he basically said you know angela merkel david cameron they all say multiculturalism's failed everyone says multiculturalism's failed and he's like no it hasn't it's not multiculturalism that's failed what and and and you know i i have been saying this in a more diplomatic way for a long time.

32:33But let's do it like this, right?

32:36Francis Foster:You co-host with me a YouTube channel that has focused on the immigration issue quite a bit, right? Off the top of your head, what would you say are the top three issues that you would associate with Ukrainian immigration in this country, the problems they've caused?

32:53Konstantin Kisin:It sounds like a joke. The only thing I can is that woman who moved in with that bloke, and then he saw his wife, saw the young, attractive Ukrainian refugee and then went...

33:05Francis Foster:Mate, Eastern European women are brilliant. What can I say? Yeah. Do you see my point? Yeah. What about Hong Kongers? Tens of thousands of Hong Kongers have moved to Britain. They're probably very concentrated in London. Have they caused... What are the problems that we... Are there Hong Kongese grooming gangs that we're aware of? No. Are there Hong Kongese crime syndicates? Right? Do you know,

33:25Konstantin Kisin:there's a place called New Malden near where I grew up in South London. 97 % of the Korean population of the UK live in New Malden. Right. They cause one problem. The driving is fucking dreadful. It sounds like a racist joke, but it actually is. But apart from that, I've taught, and I taught in schools in that area, the kids are well-behaved, the parents are all engaged, two-parent families, they care passionately about education, a large portion of the kids want to go on and then go to university. and you go to New Malden, it's clean, it's nice, you know. Right. And you also get a great Korean.

34:03Francis Foster:So, exactly. Now, that's the most important thing for you, obviously. And we could go down the list, but I think everybody understands the point that I'm making. Yeah. Right. It is not immigration. Look, mass immigration is a problem because when you have these large numbers coming so quickly, it's difficult. But broadly speaking, it's not people coming from other countries. It's people who are coming and bringing things with them that we do not want in this country. Right. People who are as a friend of Richard Minniter is a former guest of ours. By the way, that episode has just hit a million views.

34:36Francis Foster:Every single one of those is fully deserved. Yeah. He messaged me saying the distinction is between people who are fleeing oppression, who are bringing oppression. And that's that's really what we're talking about. Right. Is it's problems with very specific communities. and I'm not saying that I know exactly how to slice and divide it. You know, Tommy's view is the problem is Islam. I think that's maybe a little bit, I think that's probably too generalizing because the point I made to him is like Omani, people from Oman in Britain or from Saudi Arabia or from lots of parts of the Middle East are not causing problems in this country.

35:14Francis Foster:So when you say the problem is Islam, maybe what he means is the doctrine of Islam And we talked a lot about that in the interview in the last part, which I thought was the best part of it. But my point is, when we just talk about immigration generally, outside illegal immigration, which is just wrong and shouldn't be happening. I think he's onto something very much when he talks about the fact that the problem is not universal to immigration. The problem is within very particular ways of behaving that do seem to come from very particular groups of people.

35:47Konstantin Kisin:And the thing that I find very interesting is you see these left-wing people, not left-wing, but these progressives who talk about this issue in the manner that they talk about through this. I would call it a utopian lens. It's a utopian lens. Let's open up the borders. It's easy if you try. All of this worldview. Have they been to Bradford? Have they been to a lot of these deprived communities up north? They haven't been. They haven't been. They haven't experienced it. They haven't been to a lot of these, you know, Telford. They haven't been to these places. So they haven't seen the reality. And it's far easier to be utopian if you haven't seen the brutal reality of what these policies entail.

36:35Francis Foster:But don't they think that all people are the same, therefore the fact that these communities that you're talking about are essentially no longer England? the fact that I've just said this out loud to them would be horrific

36:46Konstantin Kisin:no but yes I agree but I think there comes a point where you can have an idea in your head but if you go somewhere and you're confronted with the reality that utterly obliterates your fantasy

37:02Francis Foster:but what is what but what I'm saying to you is what is it that obliterates their fantasy in Bradford what is it the grooming gangs But the grooming gangs You know, it's like they all say Well, white people commit rape But if you Are you saying there's something wrong With women walking around in the burqa? Are you saying there's something wrong with the population Of a major town in Britain being majority Muslim? Is that what you're saying? Because to these people, those are things That they wouldn't even consider As problems, out loud anyway But if you look

37:37Konstantin Kisin:If you investigate into this issue if you look into it, if you start speaking to people about it, if you go to Bradford and you talk to people who have been affected by this issue... But they don't. And this is my point. They don't on purpose. Yeah, and this is my point. Then you cannot deny the brutal reality of what these policies have created. No, you can't.

37:59Francis Foster:And this is why you and I have been on a journey because this is the thing. I remember Emily Maitlis when they had Rupert Lowe on News Agents. I don't know. Maybe she has interviewed grooming gang victims. I don't know. But I think it's quite difficult to maintain the sort of pretenses that these people do once you've sat across, as you and I have done, a number of young women who've had just the most horrific experiences that you would not wish on your worst enemy. And to listen to them talk about the fact that they were targeted because they were white. That's what happened. They were targeted because they were seen as the other in their own country.

38:44Francis Foster:And once you have had that experience of talking to somebody like that and you've sat across from them and you have heard their story, it never leaves you. No. And it changes how you see this issue. It just does, which is why all these people avoid doing it. And it makes me so angry. I'm getting emotional, which is rare for me. But those experiences, those interviews we've done with victims of grooming gangs are some of, I'll be honest with you, I do not look forward to them. No. I do not because it's horrific. And it's not like I'm the victim in that situation exactly. But I'm just saying that could be why they avoid doing that.

39:21Francis Foster:But I think another part of the reason they avoid doing that is they do not want their worldview to be shattered. And it would be if they actually reckoned with what they were being told.

39:30Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, because I remember the last interview we did with Maggie Oliver and Jade. I had a meeting with my director for my stand up and we were sitting down and we write together. And so I finished the interview. I went to London. We went to a coffee shop, ordered some food, got a coffee and we sat down to write. and I just couldn't I just couldn't write I couldn't I was trying and I was trying to be funny and she was going to me what's up what's happened and I went I I've just interviewed a a woman who's a grooming gang victim who told me about how she got gang raped by 10 men when she was 14 years old they pried her with drink and then they gang raped her in a toilet at a McDonald's and she went, Francis, I don't think now is the time to try and write comedy.

40:28Konstantin Kisin:And I then went and did a comedy show in the evening and it, it wasn't good. I mean, like,

40:34Francis Foster:because another victim of on the real victim, mate.

40:37Konstantin Kisin:No, but it's because you don't realize when you listen to these stories, just the profound impact, not that it has on you because you're watching a fellow human being suffer. And it's very easy to have this ideology, this utopian outlook, this kumbaya mentality, when you don't understand and you don't see the brutal reality of what it entails and the effects of it.

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41:45Francis Foster:No melatonin involved. And customers are seeing results. Olivia says, my sleep tracker shows I've been getting more deep in REM sleep. Robert wrote, great stuff. Both my wife and I recommend it highly. Click the link in the description or head over to ver.so and use our code TRIGGER at checkout to save 15 % on your first order. I thought that was probably the most powerful thing about our conversation with Tommy. And he mentioned this to you. He said, you know that when you were talking about Sir David Ames. And he said, you know, that emotion you're feeling, I can see it. Now, imagine what it's like for people where in our towns, a lot of this has been happening.

42:23Francis Foster:And we know the people. They are our friends. They're our neighbors, whatever, you know, because to a lot of people. And look, this was us as well before we like seven years ago, before we knew anything about it. You read about something in the paper and then you go to work and oh, you know, grooming guys. OK, cool. Oh, Donald Trump's done this. Oh, this. And you just skip over these realities. but I think one of the things Tommy is very good at is bringing these stories to life and I'm very glad we had him on and I know you've had people from the comedy industry messaging you saying you're evil and whatever for us having that conversation I the only messages I've had this is from people like I told you in the like I told Tommy in the main interview in the media in politics, in comedy, in entertainment, mainstream people, the people you turn on your TV tomorrow, you see these people.

43:18Francis Foster:They all said it was the best interview we've ever done. And one of the things that a lot of people said, which I really think is true, even though it's praise, but I do think it's true, is that very often when people have conversations with Tommy, it's either he's the devil or he's Jesus. He's the savior. Whereas I thought we just talked to like we would to anyone else, which is like, you know, I totally agree with this, but what about that? And we were fair.

43:45Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. And that's, I found it very interesting, the pushback I got from some people in the comedy community, because they use this word with me that has been used against you very recently, which is the word grifter. And I interpret that word, I've read a bit about that word. I interpret that word to mean somebody who takes positions or has opinions that they don't believe in purely for notoriety or financial gain. And I find it very interesting because, to me, what it shows from the progressive mindset, this person who you used that word against me, is that they can't believe, that they are so morally pure and correct, that they can't believe that somebody would disagree.

44:28Konstantin Kisin:And if you disagree, it's not because it's not because you think differently. It's because you were cynical. And that is a very interesting worldview in that everybody believes this deep down because we know it's true. So if you disagree, that means that you are immoral and you know the truth, but you deny it. It's very similar to this opinion that the whole world is exactly like us, which we talked about in our interview with Tom Holland, this kind of Christian worldview. but the whole world ain't Christian, my friend.

45:06Francis Foster:And you know what? I'm really past it with these people. My message to them is go fuck yourself. Honestly, I'm serious. Go fuck yourself. Because if you don't want to engage with these conversations, I respect that. But when you judge people without knowing what motivates them, without having sat in their shoes, walked in their shoes, sat in their chair, had the conversations that we've had, I don't give a fuck what they think. I'm tired of this shit. and you know you mentioned Jimmy the Giant who I brought on to have he did a whole video calling me and a bunch of other people grifters and that is actually a feel-good story because the reason I brought him on our channel was you know I believe in educating the next generation so to speak and I've had it I've had it you know we've been doing it for seven years for last five years we've had to take a lot of criticism from a lot of people and people are entitled to criticize us as we are entitled to criticize other people.

46:01Francis Foster:But what I won't stand for is people intuiting our motives in an unfair way and lying, right? So I brought him on and, you know, he had a bit of a meltdown, let's be honest, which I didn't expect. I brought him on to basically say, look, you've said these things that aren't true. How about you take it back or we have a respectful conversation, whatever. He didn't take it well. But all credit to him, he went away, had a think. Well, he did another video having a go of me, but he went away, had a think. I think he got a lot of pushback from his own audience, among other things, which is, you know, I respect them for that.

46:36Francis Foster:He went away, had a think, and then he took it down and he apologized. He did a public apology, which is why I was like, you know what, great, let's take down that interview that doesn't make him look good. He's learned his lesson, I think. That interview is still there. If he starts having to go loads of other people unfairly, that interview can always go back up. But I think, you know, I had a chat with him privately. I reassured him there was no ill feeling or anything like that. But my broader point is, I just think I'm past the point of caring what all these people think. If you want to lie about us or about me or about you, come and make your case.

47:11Francis Foster:Yeah. Come and make your case. And if you can't, well, you're going to look like an idiot.

47:15Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. And the thing that I always come back to is that they never, and I actually respected Jimmy for this, but they never want to put themselves in the firing line. It's why people who criticize us, they always say, you're a right-wing channel, you only interview right-wing people. And it's like, well, we work so hard. Yep. Our, the guy who books...

47:41Francis Foster:I would say 75 % of our bookers' energy is spent on trying to book left-wing guests.

47:46Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, and every time we have a booking meeting, we go to him, Billy, how about some left-wingers? And he's like, I've tried.

47:54Francis Foster:Yeah.

47:54Konstantin Kisin:I've emailed them every month, and then you can go through the list of progressives. Owen Jones, Zara Sultana, Jeremy Corbyn, Akala. I can't even... Look, if Akala was a woman, there would be a police person at our door arresting us for harassment.

48:11Francis Foster:That's how many times we've asked him. Well, to the point, and we've wanted to have him on for years. We've invited him on hundreds of times at this point, probably. and to the point where actually one of his people, he's doing some kind of documentary about race in Britain. They asked me to participate and I said, great. And they were like, okay, he'll come to your studio. I was like, great. In that case, let's do an episode of Trigonometry. Dead. Dead. And Owen Jones, Ash Sarkar, they both have said in the past they would come on the show. Not anymore. Gary Stevenson, we have to hold our hands up.

48:44Francis Foster:Our previous booker fucked it up. Gary did actually turn up for an interview and we were in America at this point because a mistake was made. I actually saw Gary at the protests in London, and I apologized to him. But, you know, if he doesn't come on because of that, you can understand it. Although I do think he makes good points, and I'd love to have him on. The point being, we tried to engage with everybody. And in the past, we have had the Kofang, the Extinction Rebellion on. We've had a shit ton of lefties with Mark Steele on. Lefty, dyed-in-the-wool lefty comedian. Loads of people. We could rattle off a list.

49:17we're interested in talking to everybody um but there is this you know six degrees of white

49:25Francis Foster:supremacy i call it on the left which is like if you've ever talked to anyone who's sat next to someone whose dogs went for a walk with the other dogs person then you'll be on the pale and we don't talk to you but i think i have to say this and this is not self-aggrandizement but i think in In the wake of our interview with Deborah Francis White, in the wake of our interview with Jimmy, or my conversation with Jimmy the Giant, and one or two other things we've done, a lot of people are worried that if they come on here and they're talking bullshit, they're going to get found out. And by the way, they should be.

49:58Francis Foster:Yeah. Because that's what we're going to do. And not just with the left. We've just released an episode with Ann Coulter in which I don't think she comes out of that well either because she's talking shit. Yeah.

50:08Konstantin Kisin:And that is our job. That is our job. And I've always said this, and that is our job to be is when the moment a guest is sitting across from us, we have to look at the arguments that they are putting forward. And we challenge the argument. If we feel that there is something awry or amiss, or even as simple as we just want a point clarified. And that is our job. And to me, as the channel grows and it becomes more prominent, because it will become more prominent. because eventually this channel will be the place where you come, if you have a point of view, to come and sit and put forward your opinions or your views of the world, whatever is your speciality.

50:54Konstantin Kisin:This is going to be the place. It already is, but it's going to become even more so. And I think it's going to start to affect worse and worse on those people who actually duck the challenge. And I'm using those words intentionally. They duck it because the reality is they don't want their opinions and their arguments to be challenged.

51:15Francis Foster:Well, the thing is, you make it sound like it's combative, but that's not really how we do it. Like, for example, Deborah Francis White, we gave her like loads of time. And it's only when she started going after me and acting like a dick, basically, that I was like, well, you know what? If you're going to play this game, I can play this game. And I'll probably play a lot better than you if that's what you want to do. But if she wanted to have a reasonable and respectful conversation, that's what we wanted. That's what we've always wanted. It's why when Jimmy the Giant behaved in the way that he did, okay, you want to play that game?

51:48Francis Foster:You're going to look like a cunt here. But if you want to be reasonable and apologize and take back what you said, I'm not trying to hold grudges against people. And our approach is always respectful. But if you say something that I don't agree with, we'll push back on it. Like in the Tommy interview when he said, oh, I don't want to be fighting. I'm like, come on, Tommy. Right. And we had. And by the way, I have to say, to his credit, any time we push back on him, he almost surprised me with how receptive he was to disagreement. Yeah, he was.

52:23Konstantin Kisin:He would actually stop and then just go, OK. And then you would talk about it. It's like when he said, you know, countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia. And I was like, Tommy, those are, of all due respect, those are two very different countries. And he was like, yeah, you're right.

52:35Francis Foster:Yeah. That's the thing I found very, and I think, you know, he's obviously been at this for a very long time.

52:42Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

52:42Francis Foster:But I just, it just felt like you're talking to somebody who's reasonable, right? Now, you might not agree with all of their opinions. Yeah. But they're still, the way they behave is reasonable, right? Do you see what I mean? Yes. There's a difference between those two things. What did you make of it overall, our conversation with Tommy?

53:00Konstantin Kisin:You know, it's very interesting because when I was talking to him and I was listening to him, it changed my mind on him as a person. I thought what was actually very good about him is that he acknowledged that looking back when he was talking about the EDL years, he was saying, look, to put it bluntly, it wasn't a good look. You know, a group of young men turning up, demonstration, that can look, the optics of that are antagonistic. They just are. so I was very I actually respected how he said look you know looking back on it we didn't handle these things well but also I think a lot of the reason he got the flack he did as well is because he told the truth and he told the truth before it was fashionable and the moment you tell the truth before it's fashionable or it's before it's deemed to be politically correct or within the Overton window or however you want to describe it, people aren't going to want to engage with it because they know that fundamentally you're right.

54:01Konstantin Kisin:And if they know that you're right and then they can't engage with it, that means that they become frustrated. Frustration leads to anger and anger leads to a backlash. So what do they do? They slam you and they smear you. But he was right about the grooming gangs. And he's right when he talks about extremist Islam. And he's right when he talks about there is a problem with radicalization. There are 40 ,000 Muslims in this country on a terrorist watch list. That's unacceptable. It just is. You can dress it up any way you want and you can say, oh, it's a religion. But the point is, why aren't there 40 ,000 Sikhs?

54:35Konstantin Kisin:Why aren't there 40 ,000 Hindus?

54:37Francis Foster:Why aren't there 40 ,000 Buddhists? Why aren't there 40 ,000 white British people on a terrorist watch? They're the majority. Yeah. Right, but they're not on a terrorist watch list. Why is that? Yeah. Why is that?

54:47Konstantin Kisin:because there is a very real problem within Islam with this radicalization. And until we actually sit down and just admit that and just say, look, there is an issue. How are we going to tackle this issue? And I don't care. Call me Islamophobic, call me racist, call me whatever you want. It doesn't matter because all you're trying to do is silence me and sidetrack from me from having an actual discussion, which is a discussion we need to have.

55:14Francis Foster:And you know what's interesting is watching that Jeremy Paxman interview from all those years back. Jeremy Paxman is a very intelligent man. Yeah. And you can see that the way he tries to derail what Tommy's saying. Now, at the time, I probably wouldn't have noticed it. But now when I've been on the other end and know what the media can be like when they're trying to misrepresent. I'm going, wait, he's talking about there's a problem within this community that's specific to that. And Jeremy Paxman is using these like 12 year old counter arguments, like like a 12 year old, like a teenager doesn't know what they're talking about.

55:49Francis Foster:Yeah. Like, yeah, but you say why people don't. No, no, that's not that. That's just stupid. That is very, very stupid. And when we sat with Tommy, I just thought that on a lot of these issues, he has been very badly misrepresented. it. As I made clear in the interview, I don't think he's an angel. I don't think he himself claims. And in fact, you could see that towards the end of the interview, he actually conceded my point. He said, you know, as you said, I don't mind a punch up. We all had a laugh.

56:20Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

56:21Francis Foster:Because that is his background. I don't think he's the same man today as he was 20 years ago. No. Do I think it's wise for him to be walking around in central London without security or just a few friends with him probably not do i think there's probably situations where he could extricate himself a little bit more but he wants to stand up and be strong because he's probably got fucking ptsd and he spent shit times a ton tons of time in isolation and in prison solitude confinement and all you know like you can see how his experiences have made him into that person doesn't mean that being that person is necessarily the very possible best way to be but that doesn't mean that he's evil or he is wrong about the main thrust of his argument.

57:05Francis Foster:And this is really the thing that fundamentally matters about anyone, in my opinion, when we have them on the show. Is the main thrust of what they're saying true, valid and important? And with him, it is. Now, if you want to go and pick little things or big things that he's done wrong that you don't agree with, that's fine. And you can discredit anyone. You can discredit me, you can discredit you, you can discredit anyone you want anyone anyone you want right look the big the big podcasters there's hit pieces on all of us right the joe rogans of the world have been attacked a thousand times he's racist he is this he's anti-semitage all of these things right happens to everybody but the main point is is the central message and the central thrust of what they're saying true with Tommy, it is.

57:52Francis Foster:Yeah. It is, right? And you can see, by the way, one of the gratifying things for us is that interview, as we sit here today, is on 1.2 million views on YouTube, a shit ton of audio downloads as well. And Tommy's done every podcast under the sun in the last few weeks, and they're not getting those numbers. Now, we've got a bigger channel than most people who are having those conversations, and it's no disrespect to them. They all do great work. But I think a lot of people wanted to watch us have that conversation because they know that we're coming at it from actually a balanced, reasonable place where we will offer fair pushback and we will not pick fights for no reason to try and look good at his expense.

58:34Francis Foster:And that's why the title of it, An Honest Conversation with Tommy Robinson, is what it was. I'm very proud of it.

58:40Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, so am I. So am I.

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1:00:21Konstantin Kisin:I think that is the best conversation with Tommy Robinson that you're going to see, because like we've said, you get two main approaches. You get the mainstream media approach which is to paint him as a second coming of Hitler or you've got the new media approach which is what a lot of people have done which eulogize him and say that he's a saint when he's neither of those two things he's a you know he's a human being with his flaws he's made mistakes he's far from perfect Tommy admits that himself and we have a conversation but I think the thing that I took away from it and I remember like you know I don't I never I always forget and we've spoken about this, the impact that our conversations have.

1:01:06Konstantin Kisin:And after we finished the conversation, I remember going home, and I spent a lot of time just thinking about that, thinking about the conversation, thinking about what happened, who he is. And it came back to me. It came back to the central point, is that what he was saying is true. And actually, everything else is kind of irrelevant. is it true what he's saying? If it's false, if it's wrong,

1:01:37Francis Foster:then that's what we should be focusing on. Well, I think we could maybe inject a little nuance into that beyond that, which is, I think, in his diagnostic analysis of what the problems are, he's right. We can then talk about, well, what are the solutions? And when we talk to him, you know, it's vague, right? But Tommy's not a politician. It's not his job to do that, right? So when he says, well, you know, 23 % of Muslims want Sharia law, they need to go. That's kind of, to convert that into policy at government level. That's impossible. Is a challenge, to put it mildly, right? We don't know what that means or what that looks like.

1:02:18Francis Foster:But in terms of his analysis of the situation where it is, the diagnosis, what he's saying about the problems, he's 100 % right. And people can pretend he's not, whatever they want, right? But he's right. So then it's up to people whose job it is to do policy, to get elected and then take some of the things that he's highlighting, which they're aware of now, thanks to him and lots of other people as well, and to convert them into an actionable policy that's going to make this country safer, more cohesive, to make sure that these things aren't happening anymore. So in terms of him doing his job of telling people what has been going on, I've got no issue with it.

1:02:57Konstantin Kisin:And the reality is, look, they have managed to silence this issue for far too long. They have smeared. They have shut people up. People have lost their jobs. You can't do that anymore. The problem now has become so... It's become undeniable. And now that it has become undeniable, the government is now faced with a challenge and the authorities are faced with a challenge. Are you going to tackle it? Or are you not? And that's where we are. That's where we are.

1:03:31Francis Foster:I'm sure Keir Starmer will get a story.

1:03:32Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, mate. He smashed the illegal... He smashed the gangs. Smashed the gangs. The gangs are super smashed. The gangs are super smashed. So where are we going to be? Because if you look at the temperature of our country at the moment, the bloke said it when you went to the protests, it's like a volcano. and it is like a volcano and we all know it's like a volcano it feels as if it could go off at any second at any moment it only needs one thing to trigger it and the whole thing is going to blow

1:04:04Francis Foster:and that is not sustainable no well i certainly hope that doesn't happen but the only way that won't happen is if the government and the people in charge and the police and the immigration authorities actually address the problems because i i saw somebody on twitter i think it was danny Finkelstein, a Times writer, who was saying loads of people seem to be really keen on us to have a civil war. I don't remember the exact language, but it was something. But he was basically saying loads of people want this to happen. No, no, Danny. Nobody wants this to happen. Nobody wants violence on the streets.

1:04:39Francis Foster:Nobody wants anti-immigration protests to get violent. There's never a good thing. It's not going to end well. It's not going to end, as Tommy said himself, It's not going to end well for the people that participate. It's not going to end well for immigrants. It's not going to end well for our country. It's not going to end well for anybody. We do not want it to happen. And I, I, I, but that is why we are calling on the government and the authorities to actually do your fucking job. Deal with this problem. Because if you don't, you're making the inevitable inevitable.

1:05:12Konstantin Kisin:And just on that point, I certainly know, of course you, I don't want that to happen. In fact, I'm going to be, I think if something, if there isn't some kind of intervention by the government, if things don't change, I'm worried that it might be inevitable. And I'm going to change the word worried. I'm going to say terrified. I've seen what happens when law breaks down. I was in Venezuela many times where the government, where the military had to come onto the streets. That is not a place that you want to be. That is not a country that you want to live in. That is not a society that you want to participate in.

1:05:48Konstantin Kisin:Because what that is, is a society that is sick, potentially terminally ill. And you do not want to get to that place. And my worry is, is that we're on a trajectory to that place.

1:06:00Francis Foster:And that's what I'm terrified of. And people need to stop confusing these things on purpose. We're not saying that this is, and I think no one is saying, this is what we want to happen. We're just saying if you don't address the real concerns that people have, this is what will happen or could happen. And we'd like that not to happen. It's not that complicated.

1:06:20Konstantin Kisin:It's not that complicated. But again, it's far easier to then target what somebody like us is saying or somebody else in the media and going, oh, you want this to happen. So then you don't have to engage with the issues because that's the easy thing to do. It's the coward's way to approach it.

1:06:36Francis Foster:Yeah. And this is where a lot of this stuff comes in. And I think the Independent, I think, had an article over the weekend in which they basically talked about the fact that most people misunderstand the realities of immigration. So they basically showed that a lot of people overestimate the amount of legal immigration and they think the number is bigger than legal immigration. And this is this kind of this sort of Islington. Oh, look at these plebs. They're so thick thing. Well, actually, the general public, including people who live in Islington, massively misunderstand lots of statistics. But the question again is, are they wrong on the main thrust of what they're saying?

1:07:17Francis Foster:Yes, they may overestimate the amount of legal immigration. OK, fine. Are they wrong that there is way too much illegal immigration? No, they're not wrong. So if you want to do what these people did during Brexit, and I remind people they can have another drink. This is a catchphrase we haven't used for about five years. We both voted Romain, right? But we got angrier and angrier watching these same people do this over Brexit. Oh, everyone who voted for Brexit is thick. How did that work out? Did that work for you? Did it just go, oh, these people are stupid, half my country is stupid, we're just going to point our finger at them when they express their concerns about what's happening to their country.

1:07:57Francis Foster:You want to just do that again? You were happy with the results last time?

1:08:03Konstantin Kisin:And look, we've also seen Sadiq Khan, I think, came out recently and was talking about how crime in London has gone down. The city is safer than it's ever been.

1:08:13Francis Foster:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:14Konstantin Kisin:I went to, and I live in a very kind of she-she part of North London. You know, everybody's there and everybody's, oh, my God. You know, there's no black people, but everybody has a BLM flag, that type of place. I went to the off-license. Very nice off-license. I had to buzz in. I had to buzz in and wait. I was like, why do I have to buzz in and wait? So I walked in and I said, why do I have to buzz in? He went, because otherwise people just come in and they just take stuff and they walk out. He's probably just been reading too many right-wing news stations.

1:08:46Francis Foster:Yeah. But this is the narrative. This is the narrative from these people. We lived, during the pandemic, we lived in central, it was effectively central London. It is. Yeah. It was zone one. It was EC1. EC1, right. And in the one year, one year we lived in this place, right, you were mugged, nearly mugged, by a guy with a giant knife. When you challenged him, he pulled out this knife and threatened you. Our producer was attacked outside of a shop. I remember my pregnant wife walking along. Some guy basically came up to him and was like, I'm a nice, clean boy, come with me. And one time I turned up to record an interview, and there was a guy with a machete outside just chopping at a tree while a bunch of people were just screaming at him to calm down.

1:09:31Francis Foster:We've all had a bad day, mate. That's within one year. Yeah. Your parents were... Their house burgled. I had my car broken into. What the fuck are these people talking about? Yeah. What are they talking about? Yeah. And then they talk about, you know, this...

1:09:44Konstantin Kisin:Fun tests are up. Tube crime is up like crazy. And they say things, oh, yeah, car stereos haven't been nicked. They're down. You're going, well, no one's got a car stereo anymore. Everyone plays it via their Spotify.

1:09:56Francis Foster:And a lot of people no longer bother to report crime because there's no fucking point. Yeah. There's no point. Unless you were trying to get an insurance reference number. I mean, we saw it in our interview with Dr. Lawrence Newport, right? When he's basically, he put a bike outside Scotland Yard with a tracker on it. It got nicked. He tracked it to the place where it was being stored. And the police wouldn't do anything. My car, which was broken into, was under a CCTV camera. They just gave me a crime reference number in an email. I had to email the police, right? of course no one in that type of society is going to report crime what's the point of course and

1:10:35Konstantin Kisin:they want to tell us it's fine it is not and what the public feel and quite rightly in my opinion is that they're being gaslit they are being gaslit and what happens with that is you can only gaslit people so many times before there is anger and there's resentment and that is bubbling and that And that will remain bubbling. And then it will get higher and higher and higher, just like the pot until it boils over, when they can't take it anymore. The pressure becomes too much. And again, I do not want this to happen. And I'm actually terrified because I'm starting to think it might be inevitable, if I'm being honest.

1:11:16Konstantin Kisin:I'm starting to think that as I walk around my city and I talk to people and people come up and talk to me. And I think unless the government actually intervene and do start to implement policies that are going to make a real significant change with things like law and order, with things like immigration, with things like housing. Unless they start to do that and they start to do it pronto, we are on a track to a very, very dark place. And I don't want to go to live in America. I don't want to leave this country. I don't. and as in somebody who is English and is very, very grateful to have been brought here to have lived here to have been born here because I've seen the alternatives I don't want this to become Venezuela I really don't and I'm seeing it's like an illness some of the symptoms I saw in Venezuela I'm now starting to see here and that, that's worrying

1:12:21Francis Foster:Or at least you're going to have nice weather and attractive.

1:12:24Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, well, global warming, mate.

1:12:27Francis Foster:Actually, I hate the heat. Global warming is brilliant. I made this point last time.

1:12:31Konstantin Kisin:It's not, mate. I'm going to join Extinction Rebellion. I'm going to stick myself to something.

1:12:35Francis Foster:All right. On that happy note, thanks for watching. If you want to subscribe, remember, triggerpod.co.uk. If you want to watch all our interviews ad-free with bonus content, we'll see you very soon with another interview. I'm fine if people are anti-war. I'm not fine if people are anti-fact. Nobody's ever built 300 miles of tunnels underneath their civilians for the sole purpose of using their civilians as a shield and as a sacrifice. Every individual in Gaza could fit in Hamas's tunnels with ease. Why is it that Israel is held to not one double standard, but a whole list of double standards in war that no other nation in history has ever been held to?

1:13:18Francis Foster:what is the goal now by pursuing this conflict in this way alienates a whole generation of future Western decision makers and that is a reality that Israeli politicians have to reckon with, surely.