War Expert Debunks Gaza Lies - John Spencer

27:29So let's talk about the casualties. How do we know that these casualties are, the stats are accurate or as accurate as they possibly can be? They say women and children killed. What do they mean by children? Does that mean up to the age of 18, 21? Women, could these women be combatants as well? Explain a little bit more for us. Sure. One, I've already explained that nobody in the history of wars, everyone asks, but what's your civilian to combatant ratio? Nobody's ever taken the enemy's word on the casualty count. But fine. Even if you took the enemy's casualty count, so Hamas, the Gaza Health Ministry, one, if you believe that there's a number or a story or a photo that leaves Gaza without the permission of Hamas, then you're just, you're biased.

28:13So of the casualty counts, and I know I heard Piers Morgan say there's been 20 ,000 kids killed in Gaza, which is a lie. I really find it weird that people that are just anti-Israel will say numbers that even Hamas doesn't say. you're absolutely right if we talk about children right because that's where they go to like john i don't i don't care that you say israel has done more they're not effective like that's not true either the hamas gaza health ministry numbers are have been shown to be methodologically and statistically even data-centricly wrong full of errors full of double names um have you ever asked any of these people that use these numbers have you seen the gaza health ministry list of people who have died by natural causes no it doesn't exist so 20 000 kids supposedly you're right the united nations puts kids at 18 so that's a list of people anybody below the age of 18 i joined the military at 17 i would have been on that list the fact that hamas has radicalized the entire population and deploys child soldiers they don't care nobody cares but what about the the the babies, John.

29:22I'm like, okay, I absolutely agree. And this is the insanity of you want perfection in war. You want a bloodless war. The laws of war account for civilian death and say, you have to take everything reasonable and feasible to prevent it. And Israel has done that. But back to the numbers, there is no way. And this is, again, you have people, insane people, and I'm sorry that they're in the UK who say they've figured out a way to figure out how many casualties have died so they won't even take Hamas's numbers right which again every statistic that has spread around the world has been shown to be false that's not what Hamas says you know the majority women majority children false false the fact that they could try to say well this many innocent civilians and this is where I really as a as an analyst of multiple wars is that we believe not me but other people that there is somebody in Gaza who can point to a body even if it's an adult mail and say, well, that person was a combatant and that person was not a combatant.

30:25They weren't partaking in the hostilities. Is there civilian death in Gaza? Absolutely. It's a war. And Hamas wants, Hamas kills people themselves. I mean, over 20 % of Hamas's rockets, so over 13 ,000 rockets they've launched at Israel have landed inside of Gaza, killing Gazans. They go on the list. Really, anybody who's died for any reason goes on the list. If you were a Hamas terrorist to cross the border into israel to kill slaughter rape and maim and died you're on the list the the list is insane but and i and other people have picked it apart from a data perspective i think it's insane that it's there's a fascination on the list when the actual question for any military other than israel is is that military following the laws of war in distinction necessity personality and overwhelming I mean, it is yes.

31:16There's actually not been a single case to be shown that Israel has targeted civilians. Has it been collateral damage? Yes. But here's some numbers in case people are so fascinated with the numbers, which I think is really problematic. Because, again, when you have a combatant, a non-state actor like Hamas, who purposely doesn't wear a uniform, doesn't distinguish itself, just that. I mean, in Ukraine, millions of civilians joined the fight against the Russian invasion, and they wrapped the yellow or blue tape around their arm. I don't know where they got all this tape, but they immediately distinguished themselves, even if they're carrying ammunition or whatever, as partaking in the hostilities.

31:55But let's talk about numbers, right? So everybody, I was getting the number early in the war, like 10 ,000 people killed. I'm like, okay, it's a war that nobody's seen in modern history. All those variables, the size of the combatant, the dense urban areas. But there's only one battle in American history. I can't find one in British history that has any of the parallels as in the density of the urban terrain, the presence of civilians, a vicious enemy. And that's the 1945 Battle of Manila. I don't know if you know it. in 1945 after the u.s military was defeated in the philippines we returned and there were roughly three to four thousand pow's and internees so hostages men women and children being held in the city of manila a city of about 1.1 million there were 17 000 japanese defenders the u.s military attacked to retrieve our hostages and liberate the city with about 35 000 So even the scale is not correct.

32:55In that battle, we retrieved our hostages. But again, 35 ,000 American and other attacking the city of 17 ,000 Japanese defenders. There were 100 ,000 civilians that died in that battle. And nobody made a New York Times op-ed that was on the cover of the saying, too many civilians died in this war. Why was that? Well, because it's war, because the Japanese were the ones who were slaughtering the civilians in that war. Or let me give you one other one. Again, this fascination with the numbers is crazy. But John, can I just interrupt you there? I know you were saying this fascination with numbers is crazy.

33:34I do understand. And from an academic perspective, I agree with you. But let's also be honest. You know, this is a war that has not just been fought on the battlefield. It's not just been fought diplomatically. diplomatically, it's also been fought in the modern day arena of social media. And there are millions of people all over the world, particularly in the West, who are having horrific images shown on their phones of horrendous suffering of civilians. So I know what you're saying, but also as well, I do understand the fascination because if you've just seen a baby blown up, then that's going to be at the forefront of your mind, surely.

34:13Absolutely. And again, if you started studying war on October 7th, you wouldn't realize that that is a uniqueness as well, right? The fact that a war of this scale and of this viciousness is aired on the phones, the algorithm actually drives it to their phones. Every awful thing that's happened in war gets driven to the uninformed minds of massive populations. That is unique. And this is where, you know, if we would have had TikTok during even the Korean War, right? In the Korean War, 50 ,000, over 2 million civilians died in the Korean War. It's a 37-month war. That's 50 ,000 civilians dying a month for every month of the war, for 37 months.

34:55had we had tick tock during that of course there would be something different had this not been israel there would be something different because they start with the image and like that's awful israel did this on purpose and they don't want to listen to anybody with any contradictory information about why is this happening and and the ideal that well of course it's it's awful look what's happening and there are innocent civilians who are dying but that's not the The intention, which we could get to this baseless claim of genocidal intent, that is not the intention of the IEDF in any way, shape or form.

35:31It is actually the intention of Hamas. Do you realize that every individual in Gaza could fit in Hamas's tunnels with ease? There's over 400 miles of tunnels. All 2.2 million civilians could fit in those tunnels, but you've never seen an image of a single civilian in those. And again, I do war around the world. In Ukraine, the civilians sought refuge because Russia didn't give notice in the tunnels. And they still do in the subways and all that to escape the awful attacks of Russia. So, yes, you're right. Absolutely. There is a fascination, again, with Israel because I haven't seen protests about the awful things.

36:08And I don't do whataboutisms, but it's just an actual veracity of a comment. Where are you on the atrocities that are happening in Yemen and Sudan and all these other areas? even in humanitarian aid distribution. During the Somalia war, 200 ,000 to 300 ,000 people had died of starvation. And then the United Nations and others tried to get aid to the population and failed because the clans took it. They killed humanitarian aid workers. I'm fine if people are anti-war. I'm not fine if people are anti-fact on what is happening in Gaza.

36:45Francis Foster:Let me introduce you to the people I work with to protect my family against financial instability, inflation and turmoil. For me, one of the best ways to safeguard your wealth is by investing in gold. And that's why I trust the Pure Gold Company. Here's a tip. If you buy UK minted gold coins like Sovereigns, you won't pay VAT when you buy them or capital gains tax when you sell them. All the profit is yours to keep. And the best part? Gold is completely private investment. It's outside the banking system, so it can't be manipulated by government or anyone else. Unlike digital assets, it's yours in the truest sense.

37:23Francis Foster:The Pure Gold Company is trusted by first-time investors and seasoned professionals alike. What I really appreciate about them is their knowledgeable, pressure-free approach. They explain everything clearly so you feel confident about your decisions and they never push you to buy. Physical gold has stood the test of time as a store of value, and it offers peace of mind that other assets can't match. It's reassuring to know that even if the banking system falters, your gold and its value remain safe. Whether you're looking to diversify your investments, protect your savings, or just gain the security of owning a real, physical asset, we highly recommend the Pure Gold Company.

38:01Francis Foster:Click the link in the description or go to pure-gold.co.trigger to get your free copy of the Investor Guide. That's pure-gold.co.trigger. Take control of your financial future today. So, and I'm glad we talked about the aid situation, because again, explode any myths. I've been reading about this. This may be completely incorrect. Was there a three-month aid and food blockade by the IDF preventing food and aid entering Gaza? No. So there was an 11-week. Is that three months? No, that's two and a half months. An 11-week pause. But again, even the people that you've had on who so-called are informed about it, don't give you the full picture.

38:47So during the last ceasefire, which was right before this pause of the humanitarian game going in, it was 42 days of ceases. There were 25 ,000 trucks of age that went in during those 42 days. And then there was a pause in more aid going in while Israel and the United States enacted the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation in southern Gaza, mostly three sites in southern Gaza, one in northern Gaza. Nobody talks about where did that 25 ,000 trucks of aid go and how long would that last? While Israel developed a plan to continue the war, but also move civilians into southern Gaza and increase the aid there, they never said they wanted to stop UNA.

39:30They said they wanted to phase it out because of the fact not only was Hamas gathering, And I saw some recently in the, of course, there was a humanitarian crisis happening, but of all the people to be blamed, it was only Israel being blamed. And this is the thousand trucks of the United Nations because people won't give you the timeline. And I love long form podcasts because let's talk about it. Let's talk about the ceasefire. So not only did 25 ,000 trucks of aid go in, Hamas insisted and would not give hostages back unless Israel allowed 1 million Palestinians to move back into northern Gaza on top of rubble, minefields, everything, so that it would be really hard for Israel to continue the war and provide humanitarian aid, which was centered on the south of Gaza.

40:20for some reason that escapes people that the fact that there was this massive population displacement back into northern gaza for hamas's strategy and what israel was trying to do was concentrate the aid distribution into southern gaza people don't also reckon recognize that there's been the statistic of how much does flour cost right so there is some really good analysis about the price of flour going up in northern gaza okay who's selling the flour that's actually not just hamas but there's not a production of any aid going in gaza it's a war zone so that's aid that's been delivered that hamas and gaza civilians take and then sell back to civilians it it's a war zone you know the idea that you know you're making gazans walk through combat areas to get to the aid in southern gaza the entire gaza strip is a war zone what are you people talking about israel tried to create a mechanism to get the aid to directly to the people and it was successful but then let's talk about how hamash tried to make it unsuccessful before the gaza humanitarian foundation gave out one box of food hamash put out written guidance and oral, like they put it on their X fees, they put it out everywhere.

41:41If you take a single meal from this initiative, you will face severe consequences. And then they went out and attacked the humanitarian zone. And yes, it was chaos. Is it the most chaos that's ever been seen in war? No, that's absolutely ridiculous. It was chaos because Hamas was causing it. And the IDF adjusted their operations in securing the outer zones. And no, I'm not a fan of warning shots. What I'm not a fan of more, though, is people that selectively take the facts and paint the story with that nefarious, you know, bad Israeli intention here is that they were trying to starve the population.

42:19Absolutely not, right? This is the idea of how much aid, not just food, medical supplies, field hospitals, new water pipes that Israel has done to try to get to the people and we have to talk about even the people being a part of this. In war, if you get the notice to evacuate, then those civilians should evacuate. But because of Hamas and other reasons, you see civilians not evacuating areas when evacuation notices because they have been told to evacuate and then Hamas pushed them back and now they're being asked to be moved again. The insanity here is the nefarious Israel was trying to starve the population as a mechanism of warfare.

43:01And that's not true. Just if you just lay out all the facts, what happened from the last ceasefire until today, which Israel has flooded. Now you have flooding of aid going in, not just from the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. The UN decided to start picking up the trucks again because of why they said they were stopping. You have airdrops. You have many mechanisms. I don't see that being the cover of anybody's news, though. Israel floods Gaza with aid. Well, I haven't seen that.

43:28Francis Foster:John, even if people accept all of that, which, of course, many people dispute, but let's say it's all true, even many people who are supportive of Israel's campaign to destroy Hamas, including Andrew Fox, who we had on the show recently, as you know, feel that not much is being achieved anymore. Like, what is the goal now? Like, I know there's 25 hostages left, but is what is happening now, the continued destruction of Gaza, the killing of thousands of people, is that really worth? And also, of course, the damage to Israel's reputation, because you can talk about the realities on the ground. The fact is that if there is one war that Israel is definitely, definitely not winning, it's the PR war, right?

44:13Francis Foster:That's just a fact. And by the way, I have to say, we've tried to have the Prime Minister of Israel and our show many times. We've invited him on because I believe it's very important for the world to hear from them as well. And we're just, you don't seem to get anywhere and they don't seem to do many interviews with even fair-minded people like us. So it just feels like their side is not really putting out their message in the way that you might be. But my question to you is, which is what I'd like to ask them really, is what is now being achieved by continuing this war? What is the rationale here?

44:44I don't attack people. I attack brashy of statements. Has Israel been successful at achieving its goals in the last 21 months? One, we have a fascination with short wars. The idea that if you accept, which again, if people, everybody can have their own opinions about the war, but they can't have their own facts. They can't have their own facts about what Israel has done and what Hamas has done.

45:06Francis Foster:Okay, well, let's talk about the facts. What are Israel's war goals? Absolutely. And then we can assess whether they've achieved them and also whether continuing the war helps to achieve more of them. Right. So if you just study war, then this is why I wanted to interview the prime minister, the minister of defense and the head of the idea. Just that chain is how somebody recently said on your show that this is just for political reasons. And like, OK, war, by definition, is the pursuit of political goals. Israel's three goals have not changed since October 8th. And if you listen to the prime minister, Minister Dermer, everybody in Israel's political military apparatus, the goals have not changed.

45:47Number one, return the hostages. Israel has returned through the use of many forms of national power, both military and political, over 200 of the 250 hostages in less than 21 months. Against an irrational actor who will only give up hostages if they think they need to in order to pursue their strategy of surviving the war. So number one goal. Number two goal was to dismantle Hamas's military and remove them from power in Gaza. Hamas no longer has a military. On October 8th, it had a vast military of over five brigades, 24 battalions, 40 ,000 fighters, 20 ,000 rockets. The ability to defend ground that was arrayed across the Gaza Strip, it no longer has a military.

46:31Does it have a guerrilla force? Yes. Does it have a lot of radicalized people who are willing to continue to fight? Absolutely. That's not the measure of effectiveness, though. Has Israel been successful at destroying Hamas' military? That's a fact. They absolutely have, and they are continuing that operation. The fact that the average age of a new Hamas recruit is 16 seems to escape people. Yes, there are new Hamas recruits. the other one is to remove Hamas from power right Hamas was the political apparatus that invaded and ordered its military its terror army to invade southern Gaza Israel has attrited Hamas's governing capabilities you have clans rising up they're they're writing op-eds in the Wall Street Journal about I am not Hamas I am controlling southern parts of Gaza Israel has been successful at taking the power from Gaza.

47:26Yes, it made missteps in the trying to wrest that main source of power. And there's new statistics out just yesterday about how much money Hamas has made since October 7th to pay its fighters by taking the aid. And then lastly, so three goals, if I'm not being clear, return the hostages, dismantle Hamas's military, remove them from power, and ensure that Gaza never threatens Israel again. And Israel has continued to establish a border area and expand that very difficult situation that was the border between Gaza and Israel since October 7th. So if somebody says there's nothing being achieved here or there's nothing that has been achieved, they're just not right.

48:10The idea that you should have stopped the war, right? So, you know, I heard somebody say, you know, after the death of Yaya Sinwar, you should just ended it. There was no successes being made. And you're hurting Israel's reputation on the international stage. And you could talk about this ridiculous stuff about a two state solution in threatening Israel to stop the war. again take out the word israel and take out the word palestine and just if we were just to do this on paper this is what happened on you know a country is invaded by a terror force all these things happen the other country waged war with these goals we wouldn't be having this question of they're not achieving anything in this war and the idea that you could do this in 21 months again that you could do this quickly under the constraints right again united states and no other nation would have done it this way because they wouldn't have been forced to, right?

49:02Six months of don't go to, don't go into Rafa. You gave the enemy a safe haven. Now the enemy still has safe havens in Gaza City where they have never evacuated. They have in Dharabla and in the humanitarian zone that was forced to be made. Absolutely, Israel has the right to continue the operation and all these double standards that it's being held to, it's still fulfilling even though they're not right. So where does this go? Israel has to remove Hamas from power, not just for the safety of Israel, but for the safety of the Gazan people to not be used as human sacrifices in the overall goal of Hamas, which has never changed, which is the destruction of Israel.

49:45I don't know if you saw recently how it thanked Keir Starmer about his threat to Israel and said, look, look, Britain, thank you for threatening Israel to recognize Palestine as a state in September, but make sure we're clear. We want Jerusalem to be the capital of that Palestinian state, and we don't want Israel to exist in it. John, there are people who are going to say, look, by continuing this war, you're effectively playing into Hamas's hands. What Hamas wants is to delegitimize Israel on the world stage to make themselves look like the victims. They don't care how many people die, how many civilians die.

50:28In fact, for them, the more that die, the better, because the stronger it makes their position. And all Israel is doing by continuing this war is ultimately strengthening Hamas, plus the civilians that are in that area are going to be ever more likely to be radicalized the more their friends and their families die? Yeah, it's a great question. And I heard the great military theorist Dave Smith try to invoke insurgency math in this war, right? So the ideal, again, counterinsurgency theory where you have to protect the population because there's a small amount of enemy that are using the protection of being hidden within the population, and you need the population to support all of this, that you're creating more terrorists than you're killing.

51:14if somebody was to apply that math to war then World War I, World War II, Korean War there would be no war fault if you had to take in the opinion of the enemy's population towards its support right if you look at Japan if you would have pulled the Japanese population during World War II 100 % would say continue the war the emperor is a deity we will die for him in war against your enemies military and political apparatus you are vicious against them you deal with the radicalization of the population after you have achieved victory and again i go back to if you're saying you know it's the cost have been too much this makes israel look too bad despite the facts you should just stop then you're saying that anybody who repeats this sequence of the numbers game, the information operations campaign, the demonization of the military doing everything physically possible to protect civilians, then you're saying that one, you want Hamas to stay in power in Gaza, and it is Hamas, not last year, today, that says, thank you, and we will rebuild, and we will continue to do October 7th attacks over and over and over again.

52:31That's a fact. That's what people are saying if you say stop the war now. Now, other people will say like, oh, we agree Hamas can't stay in power. Then what's your ideal of how to do this differently? And this is, again, you know, this is the even the people, the last few people you've had. Like, I don't know how to do this, but not this way. like well i'm i can show you how this has been done in any other war step one remove the civilian population out of harm's way for there should be a globe where's the protest for egypt for egypt to allow the civilians to get out of harm's way so that the killing of civilians that hamas is putting in the way stops none not one i really push back at this idea of israel is only damaging itself by continuing the war.

53:18We wouldn't say that about anybody else in any other similar situation, but they can't achieve victory. Yeah, but John, there's a big difference here.

53:23Francis Foster:Forgive me for interrupting. There's a massive difference, which is Israel is a small country that relies on the support of its Western allies to be able to survive and function in a way that the United States doesn't have to reckon with. The reality, you can think that this is a public perception game, which doesn't matter to you as a military analyst, and I understand that perspective, But the reality is, if Israel, by pursuing this conflict in this way, alienates a whole generation of future Western decision makers, that will affect its survival over the long term. And I would argue that Israel is losing the PR battle in the West, and you are going to see people who are in their 20s and 30s today who are going to be making decisions about military aid to Israel 10, 15 years from now who are being radicalized to an anti-Israel position by what they're seeing.

54:13Francis Foster:And that is a reality that Israeli politicians have to reckon with, surely. Absolutely. And this is – I will not deny that Israel hasn't lost a PR war. It never fought a PR war. It's it's horrible at PR. And I'm again, I'm pro truth. So I'm telling you what I've learned from studying the war firsthand and interviewing these people or how it compares to other situations, which is this, you know, comparative analysis is a research methodology. but here's where i'll draw that line about it should matter absolutely you can win every battle but lose a war that's you know vietnam you name it that's that is absolutely the fact that i want i'm a military analyst because i study war which means i factor in what is the political goal and what is the political context of the war again the bb derangement syndrome is that it's just him you know he has a lifelong history of or goal to strike iran which is which is rubbish i mean That's insane hyperbole and not true.

55:13The damage to the PR work. Right. So if you think that because Israel is continuing the war in Gaza, it is detrimentally hurting its status as a nation. Okay, let's talk about what it did to Hezbollah, which is ridiculous of Piers Morgan to say, well, if it can do this to Hezbollah, why can't it do that to Hamas? Like, that's just showing your ignorance on the complete context.

55:37Francis Foster:Well, give us that context. Explain the difference. it's what's it's not a short answer right that's why these these these hosts want your 30 second talking you've got time here not explain it to us as long as you need not you okay yeah not you right so hezbollah in southern lebanon was a terror army with a nation right it had political power had military power but it was focused on southern lebanon in it had over a hundred thousand fighters over 100 ,000 mid to long range or short to mid range rockets. It was a vast enemy that Israel was focused on. And you could talk about, yes, it made it not focus on the threat of Hamas and all that information that was going on.

56:19Israel was successful because it had infiltrated Hamas intelligence and Hezbollah. It infiltrated Hezbollah. Just from a demographic situation, If you just as an analyst give the variables of what all I told you about what Hamas had built, Hezbollah could not build that in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah is a segment of Lebanon's population. It's a very diverse society that isn't fully radicalized towards Hezbollah's goals of destroying Israel, which is the Islamic regime in Iran's goal. So Israel was able to infiltrate Hezbollah's supply chain, its intelligence, even to be able to know where every single rocket launching location was because it's not underground in most cases.

57:07And step one, like I said, in a war is remove the civilian population. And what did Israel do when it started operations in this Hezbollah? Give notification and the entire population of southern Lebanon left. Nobody talks about what are the civilian casualty counts in Israel's war against Hezbollah because it's so low it doesn't make for news against Israel. They were very successful because they were able to infiltrate this terror army within a society. That's a lot different than the context of the urban terrain, the radicalization, the diversity of the society that was Hamas, or even the goals.

57:46I mean, Nasrallah pulled back Hezbollah when Israel started his operation. It didn't fully fight. So there's so many reasons why Israel was able to defang Hezbollah. It didn't defeat Hezbollah. It wasn't its goal, right? So like, will you acknowledge the fact that the goal in Gaza is the removal of Hamas from power and its complete military capability? That's not what the goal was to Hezbollah. The goal with Hezbollah was to cheer them to stop launching rockets at Israel. And that was achieved. Same thing with the Islamic regime in Iran. What was the goal? So going back to, is Israel weaker today because it's continuing?

58:22It defanged Hezbollah. It deterred Iran and had the United States join in its efforts to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. Not a single one of the Abraham Accords deals fell apart. You had Arab nations defending Israel during this war. In 1948, there were five Arab armies that attacked Israel. In 1967, there were three Arab armies. In 1973, there was two Arab armies. Now you have Arab nations protecting Israel in the Middle East. You had the new Syrian government, which is a former terrorist organization, knocking drones out of the sky that were headed towards Israel. Jordan was helping.

59:04Other nations was helping. The idea that somebody would say Israel is secluded on the global stage, it's done generational damage to its reputation, is not true based on the facts. Israel, since October 7th, has fought an eight-front war. Seven fronts of seven different military organizations and the eight-front, which is the information war, which you're right, it's losing. It's horrible at it. It needs to do better. But the idea that it is weaker as a nation and the threats to it are higher is not true. but what we do have is spineless global leaders we have spineless global leaders who have listened to the disinformation and it matters in a democracy that the population is believing the junk but you've had others who have stood up as leaders not just the united states and president trump saying what are you talking about of course israel has the right to continue operations in gaza and how about somebody stand up and help let's talk about who else has ever been attacked in history and what nation has come to their aid what nation has come to israel's aid i'm still waiting to hear or what nation has offered to help of course the united states has helped in every way possible to include allowing the the arms that israel has purchased to be delivered although we were threatening since october 7th to not only not send munitions which we could talk about this i understood where the you can't use large bombs in an urban area it was coming from because again i've been studying this for a while but at one point the united states was threatening to or stop the delivery of bulldozer parts into somebody who doesn't study war like oh that's nothing you don't understand that the only way you enter portions of gaza is with leading with a a bulldozer an armorized bulldozer so when the united states administration said we're not going to send you replacement parts they were buying into the junk.

1:00:57It's just not true. And if it was true that Israel has a just goal, but Hamas has created a strategy that has worked, then you will see more Hamas around the world, as in more Hamas strategy. You'll see the practice of hostage taking. You have a practice of this multimedia scripted disinformation campaign picked up by mindless influencers. You will see more violence. If somebody wants peace, they should get on the same sheet of music that Hamas has to be destroyed. And here are ideals to help destroy Hamas and remove Hamas from power so the Gazan people can actually be free. In 2025, more than half of all companies are using AI.

1:01:43Microsoft, Amazon and Google have laid off thousands of workers because of it. No wonder 40 percent of people are worried AI could take their job this year. If you own a business, freelance, or want to future-proof your career, AI is no longer optional. It's a tool that gives you an edge. That's why we're recommending this live two-day AI training from Outskill. It's 16 hours of hands-on learning, normally priced at$895. But we've partnered with them to offer the first thousand of you completely free access. Click the link in the description to save your seat now. You'll learn the key skills for working with AI, including prompt engineering, data analysis, building AI agents, using AI in Excel, and automating your workflow, all without writing any code.

1:02:34Over 4 million people across 40 countries have already joined this training. Sales professionals, marketers, HR teams, freelancers, business owners. This is for anyone who wants to stay ahead. Our team is doing it too. Spots are filling fast. So sign up as soon as possible. Click the link in the description to save your seat now. But John, is it, I can't believe I'm asking this question, but is it actually possible to defeat an enemy that refuses to say that it's defeated? So this, again, this goes to the, you can't defeat an idea. Like you can't fight. This is that counterterrorism theory that you can't, you can't defeat an idea this way.

1:03:18Who says that anybody's trying to defeat the Hamas ideology at this moment. You have a nation who is trying to remove a government from power and destroy its military capabilities. You deal with the radicalization of the ideal that has been there and fueled. I don't know if people have seen the, you know, the Palestinian Sesame Street, have seen the UNRWA schoolbooks of Hamas. So that ideal, which I understand, like, this has been like, well, you can't do it this way. You're like, okay, tell me historically how any enemy of any similarity has been defeated by by what giving them something no you have to move forward and take away their will to believe that they can achieve victory there are lots of ideals that are still around nazism you know isis all these people they don't have a autonomous region that they call their nation they don't have armies and they definitely don't have the ability to launch attacks against another nation at this moment depending on what group we're talking about.

1:04:20Francis Foster:So if you're advising the Israeli government about what they ought to do from here, how will this conflict end? How should it end? How should they proceed from here, in your opinion? Sure. So again, if you study war, I get this, be a forecaster for us. How long is this going to take? How will this end? Look, if you study war, you know that there is no prediction. It's uncertain, it's political, and it's human. I don't give recommendations to nations. I have definitely helped people with understanding the context and the baseless arguments. It ends with the defeat of Hamas as the political power in Gaza.

1:04:57That can happen in many ways. Yes, the population in Gaza can rise up and that there are portions that are doing that. You can have other powers in Gaza, Palestinian powers that could rise up and seize power. You could have the complete unilateral surrender of Hamas. It might be unlikely, but Hamas has the Hamas fighters. And again, success. You just last week had Hamas fighters surrendering in large amounts because Israel was at their doors. And this is the sanctuary part that Israel has left partial portions of Gaza untouched. Twenty five percent not touched once out of concern for these hostages and the difficulty of moving the civilians out of those areas.

1:05:43like Western Gaza City and other areas or Eastern Gaza. But the idea, so what's the recommendation? Of course, Israel cannot not fight the narratives, right? When you have a hashtag that's going viral and you have these influencers talking stupid, the only way you fight stupid is with actual credible information, although some people won't be as credible. If somebody was doing this different, again, take Israel out of the equation, And I've seen this even in India, Pakistan recently, in other wars that are very recent. You have to communicate daily what's going on and what you're doing. You have to have a military person communicating every day.

1:06:26This is what our military is doing. This is the goal. You have to have a political apparatus, right? So the Israel right criticism doesn't have a spokesman for the Israeli government who is daily giving the communication. I was telling somebody recently about COGAT, right? COGAT is the IDF arm that has been facilitating all the aid, the water, the medicine. They didn't even know what the organization was, let alone that it puts out daily information about all the things that Israel is doing to help the civilians. So Israel, in order to continue this war, and they're in debate as we're talking about deciding to go into that last 25 % to move the civilians into the South under this crazy constraints that they have to fight the war.

1:07:10And then you have a United Nations session later in September that's going to, of course, say a lot of awful things. I would hope Israel changes its PR strategy, communicates more on a day-to-day basis. You can't wait until after something has gone viral and after nefarious actors start putting pictures of children trying to make stories about what Israel is intending to do rather than what it's actually saying and actually doing in Gaza. and then I would hope again if you were to move the entire population of 2 million people into an area that Hamas can't get to them you could end this war relatively quickly, I wouldn't say very quickly because Hamas would have lost its center of gravity which is the use of the population not just as a shield but the humanitarian suffering in every aspect that they're doing but if you're asking me for a prediction of how this war will go.

1:08:08I cannot give you that. And absolutely, again, this isn't Bibi, the prime minister of Israel. If you understand the politics of Israel, he has to maintain a coalition. It isn't like our system where he can be president for four years and just make all these decisions over the military, all these things. He has to face votes of no confidence regularly and has to keep a coalition. But the Israeli society could decide very soon that, look, the costs are too much. I know that we have the just goals that we have, but we don't want to pay the price in the loss of soldiers and the hostages, what they're doing to the hostages, which is awful.

1:08:49That's what a democracy does. It makes that decision. so there is nobody who can tell you how this is going i as a john spencer with just my personal opinion think it's insane that you should say israel should have stopped is not achieving its goals because that's not true and if you're saying that about israel every democracy that ever fights a war especially for its actual defense of its nation on its borders will not be able to going forward.

1:09:17Francis Foster:Well, this is why I say that I'm just shocked at the PR approach from the Israeli leadership, because no offense, John, but you saying these things doesn't really cut through the same way as if Prime Minister Netanyahu was sitting there and making these same arguments to our audience. I'm just shocked at the fact that they're not pursuing a communication strategy of actually telling people what it is that they're doing and why, because in that vacuum, you are getting all of these narratives that you talk about being perpetrated with no pushback. And it just, it creates a media conversation about this that I think is completely divorced from reality.

1:09:59Francis Foster:But I have to say, I put the blame on that for the people whose job it is to communicate about it. That's a fair criticism. Although, you know, I like to say that, you know, some of these people that you talk to again i'm as pro-truth i bleed red white and blue i'm an american i am pro-truth because i understand why it matters for the rest of the world every other democracy and criticism is absolutely but when you try to balance criticism with like yeah but they're doing all these things wrong like demanding perfection so even in its information operations when it has communicated and nobody is reporting on those communications when it reports kogat again daily gives out what they're doing to alleviate civilian harm.

1:10:42Nobody cares. The prime minister absolutely has communicated the goals repeatedly, has communicated that their war is not with the people of God repeatedly. But you have people like, well, I don't care about that. This is what they're doing. This is the effects of their operations, which is insane. Or even, I think, one of the greatest spokesmen that Israel has is minister of strategic affairs, Dermer, who was the the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., he has communicated on multiple podcasts and multiple interviews, this is what our goal is, this is what our goal is not, this is, of course, we have the right, we are trying to alleviate the harm to civilians, all these things you need to do better than that, of course, but there's also people who don't want to hear, right?

1:11:29Who they invite on their shows, yes, you, and I know you would love to have some of these interviews and I hope that they happen, but there are people who aren't listening to even the things that are being said and this is what i have a problem with is like you say because israel in the beginning of the war said that he wanted to destroy hamas that hamas are animals that he wanted to not do anything to help hamas and want to destroy hamas that that's genocidal intent that's insane let alone what militaries say about the other military they're fighting but then you want to rule out everything that israeli leadership has said about not wanting to harm the people of Gaza, not wanting to starve the people of Gaza.

1:12:07And then you take the radical political figures and say, yeah, but this guy said it. Smoltridge said this. Blum-Gavir said that. I don't know about the UK system, but that's like taking Marjorie Taylor Greene's statements or some other crazy, some other people's statements and saying like, that's the policy of the United States. That again, that's a double standard. That's trying to demonize the entire nation of Israel. And then this is the whole double standards game that is a part of this. I mean, I guess let's push back on that. So I take your point there, John. But they would say, well, look, the finance minister has said these awful things, right?

1:12:46If Netanyahu doesn't do anything about it, he's effectively condoning it. Why has he not come out and said this is unacceptable? The minister has been forced to resign. We are at war, but we do not use this

1:12:58Francis Foster:type of language or rhetoric. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, I think, A, you were right to describe her as crazy. You didn't need to correct yourself. But B, she's not in the cabinet, right? There's a big difference. So same thing with Smoltris is not in the war cabinet. He has not been the person who's been making the decision. So you want to, I agree with you. I would have approached people making statements very differently in a wartime situation when you are Israel. But you want to criticize the political leaders of israel for being political so this is again we try to apply our political framework on another nation like israel which is a a vibrant democracy with a vibrant left and a vibrant right and that the fact that israel does have to keep a coalition and the prime minister of israel does i'm i'm sure and i think that's a correct inference to say He does want to maintain a coalition and manage the government of Israel because he believes it's in the best interest of the security of the nations.

1:13:59Now, when you impose personal motives on somebody without data, and what I say is, in God I trust all others bring data. So, yes, it's the right criticism. You should come out against that minister, whoever it is, for saying that thing. Although, it's not what he said. It's how what he said can be framed. so I absolutely support somebody saying I want to destroy all members of Hamas I want to take over the control of Gaza like that's what militaries do when they're invaded and attack into a different territory you take the power from the other government it's how it's being any statement because there are a few statements coming out are framed it doesn't matter what they say after that it's just I'm going to take that that little tidbit yes you would think you'd learn like stop saying keep your mouth shut but if you want to criticize israel's political leaders for being political as in trying to keep a coalition separate of the just reasonable what every other nation would do for the goals of the war then i i have a little bit of pushback on that on if you understand that the prime minister of israel has to maintain a coalition and or if not the government falls and then you have you have to have an opposition leader, all these things, then that's just not being reasonably and objective.

1:15:22But when you put ulterior motives on people's intent, then I have a problem with that. Before John answers the final question at the end of the interview, make sure to head over to our sub stack. The link is in the description where you'll be able to see this.

1:15:35Francis Foster:Despite Israel's best efforts to avoid civilian casualties, it is still being accused widely of genocide. What impact do you believe this war will have on the public's view of future wars and what impact will it have on the strategy employed by the militarily weaker side. Rebecca asks, what's the greatest misunderstanding about modern warfare that you want eliminated? Question from Daniel, who said you mentioned the term double standard a number of times. If this double standard exists, why do you think it does? Because it's Israel. John, thank you for coming and giving us your perspective on this.

1:16:10Francis Foster:I really appreciate it. We're going to go to questions from our audience, which we've got a number of great ones lined up for you. Before we do, though, the last question in all our interviews, as you well know, is what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that we really should be? I think we're not talking about the complete reforming of the Middle East that has happened since October 7th. not just what was happening in the Abraham Accords, but the dismantling of the Islamic regime's ring of fire, which had been allowed to grow for decades under lots of people's leadership, that the Islamic regime isn't close to a nuclear weapon, that even the United States has created multiple trade agreements that are about peace and prosperity in the Middle East.

1:17:00It seems to be, again, if it bleeds, it leads. And for some reason, if it makes the Jews look bad, then it leads as well. Nobody's talking about the actual peace and prosperity, the fall of the Assad regime, all of these things that are happening that are of a positive note in the Middle East. And it's actually a complete generational change for the Middle East, the things that are happening, the weakening of the Islamic regime's hold on the Middle East, the strengthening of the ties with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, all these other individuals. Nobody's talking about that.

1:17:36Francis Foster:All right, John, thank you very much. Follow us on over to Substack at triggerpod.co.uk where we ask John Spencer your questions. WikiLeaks showed us the sense of irritation and fatigue the Arab League has with Hamas. Could the recent pressure from the Arab League, calling for Hamas to disband and disarm, perhaps change the mindset and the charter of Hamas?

1:18:13We'll see you next time.