Woke is Back and It's Worse Than Before

30:07Francis Foster:And it's not relevant to this discussion, is my view. I disagree. It's absolutely the case that when it comes to the story of our day, that stands on its own two feet and should be deliberated and thought out and understood in its own two feet. But there are many offshoots to this story, which are themselves important stories. And the treatment of Nathan is an important one. And I don't particularly want to do episodes on race realism, but it's a side story that's now being talked about because of this. And it's important to understand why the left are villainizing him. There's other sides of this story.

30:45For example, Simon Baron Cohen. You've had him on the show. Cambridge University, friend of Jason Arde. he was also he's also the the director of the autism institute or whatever it is called at cambridge he was defending our day fiercely now it seems to me that that itself is a story right because simon baron cohen should know that our day i mean was not telling the truth he's indefensible and not only that it seems almost certainly the case that our day didn't have autism at no point has Simon Baron Cohen said in his various BBC interviews I've heard that he himself diagnosed Arde it seemed that it was on his CV or self-diagnosed but he's laying down his reputation at the feet of Jason Arde it's done unbelievable damage to

31:39Francis Foster:We've gone away from your point of disagreement with me here though my point was they're going to attack Nathan Kofnas no matter what because they can attack him to blame him and others for covering the story instead of blaming themselves for elevating Jason Hardy to his position. That's all I'm saying. Let's move on, though, because I don't think this is super important to carry on. More importantly, lads, we're all men here, and I don't know if you know, but rape in Britain is illegal. Is it? Yeah, it is. Francis looks very surprised, mate. Your teaching career is coming into a whole new light here with that revelation.

32:16Konstantin Kisin:Not guilty on all charges. Thank you.

32:19Francis Foster:Not guilty is not the same as innocent. But anyway, so I don't know if you know this, but it's illegal in the UK. Also mutilating the genitals of children apparently is as well. This is a leaflet. We can probably throw it up on the screen. That's been issued to asylum seekers in the UK, which has understanding behaviours and expectations for asylum seekers. And some of the guidance is stuff like you probably shouldn't rape people. And this is absolutely fascinating because we have for a very long time, of course, been told that there is absolutely no reason to suggest that people coming here from other countries, which basically, I think it's fair to say, treat women sort of as a second class cattle.

33:06Francis Foster:They may have a slightly different attitude to sexual behavior. And in fact, some of the crime statistics, of course, do bear that out. But what this leaflet is showing is while they are telling us that diversity is our greatest strength and, you know, no human is illegal and all the rest of it, they actually know that there's a problem. And they always did. I think that's so clear. For a while, it's probably tempting to think that they were just blind to this, that when they rebuffed the suggestion that if you imported thousands upon thousands upon thousands of men from a country like Afghanistan, entrenched culture, misogyny, rampant sexual violence, that all those issues would just melt away as soon as they stepped foot on the white cliffs of Dover.

33:46It was tempting to think they were just really naive. This proves that they knew all along and they just let it happen anyway. And it's a grim kind of progress that we've witnessed over the course of the past 24 hours because after years and years of whenever you would raise these concerns, whenever victims would raise these concerns, you would have an establishment which would just say, shut up, that's not true, this is misinformation, you're being racist. now I think because we've had this steady drumbeat of stories in the press there was one just this week of two afghans who raped a woman at knife point in a park when she was on a first date with someone absolutely horrific story now they can't really get away with that so the answer is okay okay I hear what you're saying let me have a word with them that seems to be the kind of plan here like the idea that you could just even producing this leaflet doing the graphics for it coming up with these nifty little one-liners.

34:36Did no one in the room think we could just not let them in? We could just send them back when they come in. I don't want to sound simplistic, but surely that thought passed their mind at some point. So yeah, it's confirmed a lot of what we knew already, but bloody hell, in what fashion?

34:54Konstantin Kisin:I think also, I mean, look, Kemi Badenoch has spoken many times about talking right and governing left, which is effectively gaslighting. The Conservative government, over the period of 14 years, gaslighting the nation on many things, but particularly when it comes to immigration, promising the immigration would be lowered. It wasn't lowered. Not only was it not lowered, it increased. Illegal immigration increased. Keir Starmer talking about smashing the gangs. The gangs weren't smashed. Not only were the gangs not smashed, it looks like they're even more profitable than they have ever been. And this is just another example of government lying to us.

35:35Konstantin Kisin:And my concern is, number one, these horrendous crimes that are happening up and down the country and the fact that this type of late leaf would need to be produced. But there's just something far deeper going on here, which is this is damaging our institutions and our trust in government. What is going to happen to our democracy when people go, you know what? What's the point in even voting? you're not going to do anything that you say you're going to do all you're going to do is not do the thing and even worse going to lie to us and as a result of your lies and your actions innocent people are going to be hurt and have had the most heinous crimes inflicted upon them so why should i vote for you and then once that happens which we're pretty much really close to we're in a very very very dangerous place societally and it's terrifying you know when

36:31Francis Foster:we decided to do the show france said i'm going to be the comedic voice i'm just going to keep up light-hearted and do the banter thanks for that mate

36:43what were your thoughts i i was just looking up some facts before about the propensity for crime amongst foreign nationals. Now, foreign nationals are about one in five in Britain are foreign nationals. They are, sorry, they're about 10 to 15, sorry, 10 to 14 % of the adult population. What's actually, this is a side point, but amazingly difficult to get accurate numbers on foreign nationals in Britain. We actually don't know who's in our country. That's deliberate.

37:13Francis Foster:They deliberately don't collect that data. Yeah, well, we don't know how many illegals there are. There's as little as a million, as many as 2 million. But if we take the rough projections, foreign nationals account for 14 to 15 % of known convictions of sexual offences. they are account for 26 to 28 percent of convictions when it comes to sexual assault on a female and 21 to 22 percent of rape on a female age 16 or over so way higher proportion convicted let alone perpetrating and you know those who are not being convicted than the actual proportion of the population that they represent but also it's more specific to some nations I I don't hear much about sort of German rapists, but we do hear a lot about Afghans.

38:05You know, was it Wayne Broadhurst, the guy in Uxbridge who was murdered by an Afghan? There was the Rhiannon White, the woman who was murdered by a migrant. And it's very specific countries they're coming from. The UK specific evidence on Afghan crime, and this is from the MOJ. it's that they're 20 times higher than a British likely to commit sexual offense than a British national 20 times higher and in Germany the rates are not as high as that but eight to ten times but the data is better in Germany so of Afghans recorded suspect rates of roughly 1700 to 2500 hundred per 100 ,000 compared with 160 to 270 per 100 ,000 for German nationals.

38:54So eight to ten times. Basically, certain countries, there is a higher propensity for this kind of crime. And of course, they don't talk about that. The Labour left, they can't talk about that. Instead, they say all men. It's a problem with all men. But actually, no, specifically, it's much worse for these people from these certain specific cultures because not all cultures are equal, believe it or not.

39:17Francis Foster:And we actually have a clip of Jess Phillips, the Labour politician, talking about this in exactly the way you described. I understand that it's interesting because it's to asylum seekers. We also run an enormous Enough campaign teaching men in the country about how their behaviours could be perceived, whether that's stalking behaviours, harassment behaviours, harassment in public. That was to everybody in the country. We also have started a process of ensuring that boys and girls in schools undertake education around the expectations of happy, healthy relationships and actually the dangers of a lack of consent, for example.

40:01So this is just one example of a preventative measure. I understand people are interested because it's asylum seekers. At the exact same time, the Home Office ran a multi-million pound scheme for men across the entirety of the country.

40:19Francis Foster:What is this? I get it. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. Was that Jess Phillips is a repeat offender where this is concerned. Is that clip there? Mm-hmm. So we went back in 2015, 2016, in the wake of those horrific sex attacks in Cologne committed by very recently arrived North African and Arab migrants, you know, thousands upon thousands of cases. And she likened it to women getting catcalled in Birmingham for Friday or a Saturday night. So this kind of pivot that always takes place. It's like the left's version of all lives matter to a certain extent. You're trying to talk about something very specific.

40:54and they have to generalize. They have to kind of shift the goalpost. They have to pretend that there aren't specific problems with specific groups and specific cultures. You know, when you see those signs up on the tube saying that if you press your genitals against a woman at rush hour, that's not okay. Who do we think that is for? It's not for British citizens. It's not for people who might have been of migratory background but have been here for a couple of generations. It's for people who are coming in from cultures, which again, in any other context, people would willingly admit have backward reactionary attitudes towards women.

41:28I mean, the treatment of women in Afghanistan, for instance, is something that a few years ago you would be accustomed to reading a kind of panicked Amnesty International press release about it because of the ingrained culture of misogyny, child marriage, forced marriage, the likelihood that if a woman is raped, she's more likely to be punished than the perpetrator, all of those kinds of things. It comes like dead last. Georgetown University did a kind of table for women's equality of a hundred and something countries they looked at. It comes last for every conceivable measure of women's wellbeing.

41:58And yet again, the idea is that that will just disappear upon contact with terra firma in the UK. And it's particularly strange because everyone will remember about 10 years ago, there was this really, frankly, dumb conversation that was going on about rape culture in the UK. So there was this idea that lads mags, page three, dapper laughs were essentially creating a permissive attitude amongst British people but white working class Brits in particular towards sexual violence. And yet when you're confronted with something like Afghanistan, which I think is fair to say has a rape culture or a permissive attitude, or certainly very backwards attitudes towards this particular issue, suddenly you get crickets.

42:37So in some case, I think it just, it shows the hypocrisy, but also shows the desperation that even when this stuff is staring them in the face, they have to pivot. You just think if they could just let this go, particularly the Labour Party would have so much more credibility. They wouldn't be hanging on to power in the way that they have been, but they can't let it go. And the psychology of why is really interesting to me.

42:56Francis Foster:Well, yeah, it violates their sacred dogma, doesn't it? Because what they will always want to do is a pretend that all cultures are the same, but even more importantly, when they invariably forced to admit that some cultures are different, they can't quite make the connection between a culture being different and the people who come from that culture being different. So we can admit that Afghanistan is a patriarchy because we hate patriarchy, but we can't admit that men, young men who come from a patriarchal society will tend to have sexist misogynistic and frankly rapey attitudes to women uh some of them that's not to say that all of them are like that but in terms of the prevalence of those types of views and that type of behavior it's incredibly more uh incredibly obvious and winston was talking about the crime statistics of foreign nationals i actually think it's really important to make the distinction that he then went on to make because you will have lots and lots of places around the world from which people have come here.

43:53Francis Foster:But I don't imagine the New Zealanders or like you said, Germans or, you know, people from other societies that have similar attitudes to women's rights and so on are likely to massively ramp up sex offensives in the UK. But you do see that for people from certain regions of the world. And it's not by accident. It's because the places from which they come have a different attitude to women and if you are a woman who's ever traveled alone to those parts of the world you will know this from your direct experience and it opens people's eyes and when they do that in a very obvious way there's another contradiction in the concept

44:31Konstantin Kisin:no i was just going to say like do this little thought experiment imagine those stats applied to white men what do you think the guardian headlines would be i would guarantee they would run that story all day, every day, three times at breakfast time. But they simply can't do it. And do you know why? It's because anybody who talks, let's imagine Aaron Bastani decided to talk about that story openly and honestly on Navarra Media. Aaron would have to release a video every day apologizing. Because that's what happens in the left when you go against your own team or one of their supposed mantras. You can't do it.

45:14Konstantin Kisin:Even when you tweet something as innocuous as saying Jason Arday was a con man, you can't do it. And if you do do it, you've got two options. You either apologise or you get kicked out by your own side. What's it going to be? And that's the dilemma everybody on the left faces.

45:32Francis Foster:One last word on this before we run. there's another logic fallacy or contradiction which is that if all men it's a problem for all men in britain already not just foreign nationals then that implies that it is our culture to sexually abuse women and so actually these people don't need a pamphlet because they are just the same as all the other men so it's like not necessarily not necessarily in in the first place uh well the other issue of course with immigration there's been a big debate this week is finally after many years and i've been advocating for this obvious policy for years now uh there is uh apparently a debate in the uk i don't know why it's a debate it's a self-evident thing that needs to be done about the fact that foreign nationals in britain should not have access to the benefit system and uh the reform party and also i think restore have both uh been talking about this i believe the tories have now adopted it as well so effectively the entire center center right is now come to around to this position which as i say i think is eminently sensible but there's now a debate we're having a debate about people from whether people from other countries should get taxpayers money in the uk and i'm just i don't really we seem to just this is the thing that seems to happen in our country now every week where we just have some sort of moronic debate about something that is incredibly obvious and i say this i'm going to use my privilege, you know, immigrant privilege here, as someone who lived in this country as a foreign national for many years, it would never have occurred to me to even attempt to claim benefits, not least because the visa you get in your passport when you come here says no recourse to public funds.

47:17Francis Foster:But apparently, once you get on indefinitely to remain, or once you get onto other forms of visas that you can have in this country, you now have access to the benefit system you can live in social housing if you're an asylum seeker we just pay for you to to do whatever it is you need to do dental appointments and so on how is this even a debate no it is yeah isn't it because when you talk to people if you said kind of thought experiment you move to another country could be somewhere in europe could be somewhere more far flung would you expect in relatively short order to be able to just go on the dole they would be like of course not the assumption would be if you couldn't support yourself you might go back to the country that you came from you might find some other way of supporting yourself it's uh particularly kind of british mania we have in this particular area and it does speak to the fact that just the idea of citizenship has just been so diluted and degraded it should mean something of course it should also mean that people are able to join it provided that they've contributed provided that they've integrated all of those all of those things that basically everyone agrees with but um the fact that just by being here or just by being here for a certain amount of time that this kind of automatically kicks in is such a casual way to think about joining a country or being part of a country and it's also just completely destroying any sort of faith or support in the welfare system people need to feel like when state funds or when taxpayers funds really are being doled out that they're being doled out for the right reasons into people who you can kind of think of as part of the we of a country as soon as that breaks down and this is why i think labor should recognize this being they are the kind of premier welfarist party the whole basis on which that kind of system has public support just corrodes i think that the one wrinkle in all of this is because people got so used to indefinite leave to remain there probably will be a lot of people who for all intents and purposes are integrated are part of the national community have got kids with a british partner just never bothered to make that extra step towards citizenship who might get kind of caught up in the mix of all of that but broadly speaking i completely agree citizenship has to mean something yeah and i have friends like that tom but there is sorry to interrupt but i have friends like that and there is an obvious solution there which is okay look we understand you maybe wasn't weren't that keen for whatever reason it takes a bit of money it takes a bit of time etc etc.

49:37Francis Foster:In the situation our country finds itself in, we're going to have to be a little bit more strict about how this is done. So please apply for a British nationality. We'd be happy if you've lived here for 20 years and fully integrated. Go for it. That's fine. Winston Francis, thoughts?

49:54Well, so just on some details, because this is worth just highlighting. So there's about 1.26 to 1.3 million people in Britain and in the UK on Universal Credit. They are claiming over£10 billion a year. And so those are non-UK or Irish nationals, right? So of the 7.5 to 9 million foreign nationals in the UK, 1.26 to 1.3 on Universal Credit, another 620 ,000 are on other benefits, which means that there's something like one in four foreign nationals in the UK are on some sort of benefits. And I mean, it's extraordinarily high. And they're claiming over 10 billion pounds a year in a country with three trillion pounds worth of debt, and we're spending 100 billion on debt interest each year, right?

50:51So just for some context there. As for how this came about, I'm trying to understand this, like, did we become more lax that why is it that this is has become the case and actually we've actually always been quite strict on who can claim such benefits and this goes all the way back to the poor laws where you had to have legal settlement in a parish if you wanted to claim benefits it goes through the old age pension act in 1908 and and it continues what's changed is not that the law on who uh can claim it. It's changed as how many more people have become within the defined, defined as settled. And so as you say, whether it's Assign Seeker, indefinitely for Remain, or various different settlement where they can apply it.

51:40This has jumped, that's what's actually changed. And it's jumped massively. Since 2020, in 2022, there were only 900, I mean, I say only 900 ,000 is extraordinarily high number, but there are 900 ,000. So 400 ,000 more people on universal credit since 2022. So it's because of how they claim to be settled. And so they pass through the hoops that way. So that's the big change as far as I've understood it. Now, where there's, I think, maybe a debate is if they're paying national insurance rather than if they're paying just their taxes, income tax. national insurance like is there an argument there that they should have some sort of claim on on the pension that would come from from that I think that there is an argument I would take the same position was that if you're a foreign national you don't you still have to pay for the privilege of being in our country but you don't get to enjoy the benefits unless you become a citizen so there's an incentive to become a citizen actually buy into the system and and probably be a part of it But there's also, I guess, the argument is that maybe employers should be given a relief where they don't have to pay for the pension of employees if they are foreign nationals.

52:55And that might ease things for employers. I don't know. So that seems like a small detail to get bogged down in. The big headline, though, is that we've just let anyone in and become settled.

53:08Francis Foster:Well, this is really the problem with mass immigration, right? is you can have a very relaxed posture towards many many many things until you bring in millions of people in a very short space of time in which case the entire system completely breaks down not because the rules were actually bad necessarily in and of themselves but because they're incompatible with a fraying society with plummeting levels of social trust and and all of the other the consequences that ensue when you have millions and millions of people. And by the way, Tom made the point about the Labour government. Let's be honest, this all happened under the Conservative government.

53:47Francis Foster:This is not a left versus right thing. It's a stupid versus not stupid thing. And I'm glad finally that there are some non-stupid people in the politics are waking up to this reality. What do you think, Francis?

53:59Konstantin Kisin:Well, I think what this is, is, look, let's put it in real world terms. We're broke. This country is absolutely broke. In real terms, since 2020, our currency has lost 40 % of its value. We've got 100 % debt to GDP ratio. We can't afford to do this anymore. It really is that simple. So we either deal with the fact that a few people are going to start kicking and screaming, calling everyone racist, or we're going to do essentially things that are bringing in policies that are needed to prevent us from going bankrupt as a country. That is where we are. And the reason we are bankrupt as a country, and we spoke about it with Peter Hitchens on our interview in Trigonometry, is because we have been delusional for far too long.

54:54Konstantin Kisin:We've been delusional about immigration. We've been delusional about public finances and public spending. We've been delusional about the issue of men and women and there's a whole host of subjects that we have been delusional about and you know what you can be delusional for a bit you can you know have the occasional period of your life where you know what you go reality doesn't matter i'm gonna kick back and relax you know and just live a life where reality doesn't apply to me but the problem is is when you're doing that eventually you're going to be like that bloke who's in his mid-40s goes you know what don't need the wife mate don't need the kids gonna go to the strip cup i'm gonna live life i'm gonna be who i am it's gonna be great well eventually you're gonna wake up one day realize you lost your house the wife and the kids and all of a sudden realities come home to roost and unfortunately the uk at the moment is in danger of living in a bedsit with a bottle of whiskey for company it's not based on my own life by the way

55:55Francis Foster:you should have an intimate knowledge of this situation man

56:02Francis Foster:exactly uh well guys we're gonna overrun a little bit because i do want to cover this final story before we do though i just wanted to say if you're watching this and you've enjoyed it uh there's two things we needed to do number one we haven't got a name for this show uh so give us your funniest most outrageous ideas and we'll play around with them and see if we want to run with them number two if you've enjoyed it tell us in the comments tell us what you thought what you like what you didn't like what you'd like us to improve obviously smash the like button obviously subscribe anyway gentlemen speaking of delusions one of the things that i've been covering for a long time is the ongoing derangement on what i think is mostly the american center center right basically you have in america sort of normal rational right-wing people and conservatives and then you have the sort of Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens wing, which are increasingly becoming these rabid conspiratorial lunatics.

57:01Francis Foster:And you saw this, I don't know if you watched the great debate. It was very popular between Candace Owens and Andrew Wilson, in which they discussed who really did murder Charlie Kirk. Now, obviously, the trial hasn't happened, so we can't make any factual claims. And one thing I will say about our beautiful country is one of the things I have really appreciated during this time is mortising that we have laws which prevent people from commenting on ongoing trials and thinking, fuck me, what a great idea this has turned out to be. Because if you look at what's happening with the Charlie case over there, you're going, oh, my God.

57:33Francis Foster:But anyway, setting aside the factual stuff, there is just this now thing in America on the right where it's like Israel is the new Russia now. so if anyone's done anything if you know someone's got elected that you don't like it's israel if something which used to be russia of course you know 10 years ago um and and and so and you saw andrew wilson asking candace owens in this debate you know what is your evidence for these things that you're saying that erica kirk is complicit in the murder of your husband and her evidence was basically well my audience likes it that is you know in the summary of what she said she said I'm entitled to think this and clearly my audience is engaging with this what do we think is going on that's incredible isn't it I think you more than anyone else Constantine have been instrumental in not just pointing out but mocking the brain rot that is Candace Owens at this point so you're doing God's work but that is concern but it has been grimly fascinating hasn't it watching a sort of spiral into conspiratorialism naturally what's at the end of every conspiracy theory the Jews loosely dressed up as Israel these days but we know what it is they're talking about I just found it, it was like kind of stare, watching that debate, it was like kind of staring into a parallel universe where up is down, left is right.

58:44What is the basis of evidence for any particular claim? Doesn't really matter. She would talk about intuition, gut feeling, anonymous sources that you just have to take as read. I mean, she was claiming what the, not only did, was Israel and potentially Erica Kirk complicit or involved in the murder of Charlie Kirk, but also that the French foreign legion were trying to kill her, presumably because of a campaign against that bloke that Emmanuel Macron married. Like, all of this stuff is just totally unmoored from the way in which we usually think about things. And it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic because it does seem to have a constituency now.

59:19And one thing that I think is really interesting about the kind of conspiratorial mind, as you see summed up in someone like Candace Owens, is that it presents itself as very questioning. I'm just asking questions is the cliche. I'm entitled to my opinions. I'm entitled to dissent. But it's also, it's based on a level of kind of certainty that you don't get in normal life. I mean, most times when a court case makes its way through and someone is convicted, it's beyond reasonable doubt. Broadly speaking, people think, even though there is some doubt there, we've come to the conclusion that the evidence weighs in a particular direction.

59:51At the beginning of that debate, she said that she was 0 % convinced that Tyler Robertson was the killer. And that's its own form of blind faith in a strange kind of way. So, yeah, I think we are going to get more of it. We're probably going to get more of it over here in the UK. It just hasn't quite filtered over just yet, it seems like.

1:00:08Konstantin Kisin:Do you know what? When I was watching it, number one, my primary thought was, I want every minute that I've spent watching this and I want it reimbursed to me. Number one. Number two, you look through the comments. The comments are fascinating because you're going, oh, right, literally doesn't matter what Candice would have said. Her audience would have backed her to the hilt. They were utterly delusional. And number three, I kept thinking this. This would not have been anywhere near as popular before COVID. I think COVID basically gave an entire generation of people brain rot where nobody trusts institutions.

1:00:46Konstantin Kisin:Nobody trusts government. Nobody trusts the law or the police. And as a result, everyone's like, well, the obvious thing can't be the obvious thing. I mean, it's the French Foreign Legion. I mean, that's mental. i mean who knows where was the last time you heard about the french foreign legion it's insane i mean israel i'll be like all right that's a bit hacked i mean give her credit mate

1:01:13Francis Foster:at least she's come up with some new theories yeah some new material exactly yeah she's she's she's gone up a level but it's just an interesting thing you say you know post-covid people have lost faith in institutions that's understandable and look there's good and bad and there's some institutions that are good and bad etc but how do you go from having no faith in institutions to now having faith in the intuitions and dreams of candace owens because you don't have to go there right you could just say well clearly you know we will lie to about the origins of the virus clearly in their attempt to prioritize public health they downrank the importance of truth and therefore misled us about you know the side effects of the vacuum or whatever whatever it is but you don't then have to go into the derangement on the other side.

1:02:00Francis Foster:But a lot of people seem to be making that leap, Winston. I just want to start by saying, actually, my resentment on this issue is you, Constantine, for choosing this topic, this four hour long video that I suffered through two hours of, generally a horrible experience. It reminded me of all the negative experiences with women I've had in relationships but without any of the positives bundled into one and sort of a woman who doesn't in any point engage with the logic of the argument but does everything to sort of run circles and just so you have this Wilson lad who's shaking in frustration I was shaking in frustration it's so insufferable listening to her and in that particular conversation and I'd also note that this is a woman who has been doing medieval blood libel for the last, as early as summer 2024.

1:02:56So this is a woman who's a bit nuts. But if I can push back against all of you, Tom, you're saying there's a sort of increased constituency for this kind of thought. Actually, at the political level, these kind of people don't seem to be that popular. People who are adjacent in their thinking right i think of fishback in florida who is not done well i think of uh thomas massey i think of uh marjorie taylor green that they might not actually think the same as candace on these specific issues but there's a bundle of people who have a sort of similar type of view and actually at the polls it's not working and so then we come to think of who is actually engaging with this stuff is it actually americans i mean i'm sure there's a considerable amount of people in America, but is it people around the world?

1:03:46Is it when it comes to the anti-Israel stuff, is it actually people in the Middle East? Is it, you know, there's no doubt that there's worse anti-Semitism in Britain in my lifetime. I'm not denying for a second that it's terrible here, but how popular it really is. It's not. Have you guys actually got a sense of that? Like, can we actually say legitimately this is a mainstream thought or this is a really popular of thought in America right now?

1:04:14Francis Foster:I think it's hard to deny that there are a lot of people in America who are interested. I mean, when Joe Rogan says he's interested in Candace's perspective on this, you kind of go, Joe loves conspiracies. He always has done, etc. And this was the other point I was going to make. By the way, I think you're right. A lot of Tucker's audience has been demonstrated to be from Muslim countries, not in America, and a lot of Candace's own audience as well. but a lot of it is in america you're right that it hasn't had the impact uh politically um but i've forgotten what i was going to say about the the yeah i've forgotten what i was going to say about what i forgot what i was going to say um yeah good but no it is especially especially because of the fact that um we've got conspiratorial thinking everywhere now though i mean if you made oh tom i'm sorry this is what i was going to say this is what i was going to say to winston's challenge sorry mate it's not new though is it because look how big alex jones was at one point talking about stuff like this and sandy hook and whatever there's something in the american psyche and you guys know how much francis and i love going to america but i think i've said this before i think it's the flip side of the american dream which is if you live in the society where like anything is possible and it's amazing well like anything is possible you know maybe the french foreign legion did kill charlie kirk together with erica kirk for the benefit of benjamin netanyard do you know what i mean like and and maybe maybe the one thing we probably don't appreciate enough is how exciting and enjoyable it is to engage in this sort of thinking because it makes life special it makes you special you have this unique insight francis has made this point very often this is often what drives a lot of these conversations sorry to interrupt tom no not And off the back of that, I think that's one part of the appeal, certainly of Alex Jones, when he was really at the height of his pomp and before he got kicked off of various platforms, was that there's an element of this which is enjoyed as a form of performance as well.

1:06:10I mean, he's a particularly kind of pyrotechnic, spectacular example of this, you know, the turning the frogs gay, et cetera. But even with Candice Owens, when you see her actually on her own show, it's a kind of, there's an element of drama to it. There's an element of performance. and as you say there is also it maps on to something which has always existed in american society certainly in the 20th century which is this appetite for conspiracy theory um to a certain extent it's almost recreational for some people you notice like they kind of get into it get into a particular theory move on to another one so sometimes it's not taken literally but it is by many people taken quite seriously maybe it's because of that hostility to the state that they have on a much higher level than certainly a lot of european countries have it's hard to work out where it sort of comes from but also it goes across the political spectrum now which is the point i was going to make which is that you make the point constant about how we've gone from everything that goes wrong every assassination every murder it suddenly becomes russia's fault we've now flipped to israel but you know the russiagate scandal showed that that was just liberal left conspiracy theorizing and yet and the thing that was much more dangerous about it was that it passed like the Martha's Vineyard dinner table test.

1:07:21Whereas what Candace Owens is talking about, or certainly what Alex Jones is talking about, is going to get you laughed out of the room if you're at a newspaper or on Capitol Hill. So I think there is still the extent to which you've got conspiracy theories and you've got the kind of acceptable conspiracy theories. And in a way, it's the latter camp which can be more dangerous because it is taken with a lot more credence, it looks like.

1:07:41Konstantin Kisin:Well, also, America is the country of cults. if you think about a lot of the most famous cults, a lot of them were in America. And what does every cult have? It has a charismatic leader who basically talks bollocks but does it in a charismatic fashion. And everybody goes along with them, whatever the cult is and whatever the message is. And basically, Candice is an online version of that. She sits there, she talks about bollocks, but because she does it in a way that is engaging and people find it entertaining, they go along with it. I think it really is that simple.

1:08:14Francis Foster:that's a really good point what's interesting to me though is the embrace of the stuff i mean hunter biden to me is an incredible conundrum not him himself he there's nothing super interesting about him but he's now sort of being embraced as like this voice of and i just you take for some reason there's this thing about where you take some of the most personally reprehensible human beings on the planet and then they go on these conservative massive shows and are presented as being like a valid person to talk to i mean hunter biden is famous for slapping around hookers while snorting cocaine off their asses like what is what is that why is that why are we listening to him maybe we should interview him trigonometry is what i'm saying

1:09:03Konstantin Kisin:yeah i look i think charisma is is is a we don't talk about it enough charisma is so important it's so important for spreading a message it's so important if you are a public person in any sphere and if you are very charismatic you can basically sell what's the famous adage he's so you know he's so good at selling he's so charismatic he can sell ice to the eskimos i mean that's what that's what candace is doing sometimes the most obvious explanation is the correct one well and also cult leaders like making money candace was paid something like 300 grand for this interview i don't know how much andrew wilson was being paid they were certainly doing ads throughout it i have my money i think i think it was he kind of threw the gauze she is paying her she paid her 300 grand yeah yeah and by the way like you said sorry to interrupt just to just to add to your point the stream has now got five and a half million views and there's youtube ads all the

1:10:09Francis Foster:way through it yeah excellent well next week it won't be winston and tom it will be candace owens and andrew wilson joining us on this show because clearly that is that is what the people want and it is our job to deliver it gentlemen uh it's been an absolute pleasure thank you for your We have overrun massively, which is a great strong start. Thanks all for being here. Make sure you subscribe to The Winston Marshall Show. Make sure you subscribe to Spike. And, of course, subscribe to Trigonometry. And we will see you next week while we will all try to be slightly more cult-like and charismatic.