272. What if work was about purpose, not survival? With Louise Hill, Founder of GoHenry, and Ruth Handcock OBE, CEO of Octopus Money

23:46Louise Hill:Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Join venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the creme de la creme, so you too can make billion dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life. Maybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube define leadership. Listen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts.

24:20Louise Hill:And I think we're seeing this with Gen Z have been described as the most entrepreneurial generation in history. I'm sure the Gen Alpha, by the sounds of it, Louise, we're already on with that. Even more so, yeah. Yeah. And we're also seeing those trends in terms of what Gen Z are asking for in terms of what they want from work. And it all seems to feed back to what you were saying there. I mean Ruth from your perspective again if you've got any anecdotes from from clients octopus money what changes when people feel financially confident and they feel confident enough to choose work that they really care about yeah so what we find when people have a financial

24:54Ruth Handcock OBE:plan so I'm a bit obsessed with it with a plan being the root of confidence um people find it very hard to get to a plan on their own but actually it doesn't take much um to help someone get to a plan. And once they have a plan, that sort of unlocks this feeling of control. And I now know what I'm doing. And I'm not scared anymore. And some of the things you find is people are way less likely to leave their jobs purely for salary. So lots of people switch jobs, not because they're unhappy, but because they think it's the only way they can get a pay rise. And people, you actually see less salary hunting when people feel financially resilient, which may mean they figured out that actually the amount of money they're earning they were happy where they were they were just thinking they should leave because it's the only way to to get a pay rise and if if they can figure out how the numbers add up then they're comfortable staying as they are um anecdotally you see people more likely to go for promotions um in the place that they're already working because they feel like they've got their stuff in order it's the confidence that that comes out of it.

26:02Ruth Handcock OBE:And then the real unlock, and, you know, we've all heard an awful lot about the correlation between financial stress and mental health. You just get this sense of less stress. So often one of the questions we ask when we first launch in a workplace is how stressed do you feel about money? And how many days do you think you couldn't concentrate on work because you were so worried about money. And you know, that, that latter stat can be north of 90 % in many, many workplaces. So if you're leading teams, and you ask people that question, probably 90 % of your team will say at some point, they were so worried about money, they couldn't concentrate on work.

26:43Ruth Handcock OBE:Now, if a plan can change that, what an incredible, one incredible thing to be able to offer a population so that they can live the life they want to live rather than feel that lack of control um so to me i do think it is the basis for many bits of your career we haven't even started talking about parenting and caring and all of those things again where it has a huge impact on people's confidence um but i but i do think the plan is the root of that but this question both of you louise and ruth you just said plan is the

27:17Louise Hill:root of that and i think a lot of people were thinking i have a plan as in a piece of paper showing me what my outgoings are and I have a big number that I wrote on the 1st of January going this is what I want to earn this year that doesn't sound like the kind of plan for both of you but what does a good plan look like?

27:33Ruth Handcock OBE:So I think it's I think there are two aspects which is you probably have a short-term plan and a long-term plan so most people think of a short-term plan as a budget so can I make sure that I can get through the month without spending more than I earn And that's normally where people start because we as humans find it very hard to think about the long term until the short term is in order. So just figuring out that how much am I spending, how much am I earning, a conundrum is step one. Step two, which is what most people don't get to, is what do I want to achieve in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years of my life and am I on track to get there?

28:10Ruth Handcock OBE:so what we do at octopus money is not rocket science is we draw a line over the next 20 years saying if you carry on doing what you're doing this is what the next 20 years of your life look like this is the likelihood you can hit your goals this is what will happen if you take any time off this is how much money you might have when you retire this is the chances you can afford to go on that holiday that you really want to go on and actually if you make some different decisions and that might be things that people find a bit scary to decide on their own should i put a bit more in my pension? Should I start something called an ISA?

28:41Ruth Handcock OBE:I don't really know what an ISA is. Should I save a bit more? Should I save a bit less? Those are the kind of decisions that over the long term can make an enormous difference when you look 5, 10, 15 years out. That's the bit most people don't get to. That's the bit that influences whether you in the long term can live the life you want to live. And it has to start from the life you want to live. It's not just standing up numbers. It's what do I want to get to? And what decisions could I make with my money that would help me get there? When you work through that plan with someone, they look back and they're like, it's kind of simple.

29:17Ruth Handcock OBE:Now you lay it out like that. Really, you're just optimising for how much you save. And as we all know, if you save or invest, that money compounds over time. So it just gets you a bit closer to your goal. But it's really, really hard to get there on your own because people feel nervous that they don't understand what they're doing. They feel nervous about whether they've used the right data, they don't really understand how their pension works. But over the course of a half hour, 45 minute conversation, someone can walk away saying, oh, so if I just save an extra 10 quid into my pension, that's worth this much when I retire.

29:48Ruth Handcock OBE:Why didn't anyone tell me? That's how I think about a plan. Not rocket science, but quite hard to do with a blank sheet of paper on your own when you're not feeling hugely money confident.

30:00Louise Hill:I'm guessing, Louise, that's where you come in by...

30:03Ruth Handcock OBE:what is the blank piece of paper well we're yeah we're trying to um set some of that money confidence in place from a very early age but actually i was thinking as ruth was speaking you know when when i started the company back in what we launched in the uk and back in 2012 um we thought long and hard about what benefits we could give the the team that you know the people who worked at GoHenry. And at that point in time, we couldn't afford very much. But very quickly, it became very important to us because we are trying to teach money confidence. It would be a bit nuts if we were not trying to provide that to our teams as well.

30:44Ruth Handcock OBE:And talking to team members, we very quickly understood that most people didn't feel confident with money themselves, or a lot of them didn't feel confident with money themselves. we probably went about it in a different way to the way Octopus Money does but we put in place access to IFA so independent financial advisors and actually what we found when we first did that and I think it it speaks to the confidence point that Ruth was talking about when we did that So many of the team were actually fearful and embarrassed of booking that meeting with the independent financial advisor. And so what we found we had to do was put some webinars in place where there was a topic per webinar.

31:37Ruth Handcock OBE:people could send in questions anonymized questions ahead of time kind of hear the discussions about those topics and after people had gone through a series of those then they booked the call with the IFA and put together their their their planning for for them their family and their lives but um it it all comes back to that confidence point and and whether you are confident with money or not I love that answer I love that answer um just quickly we've

32:06Louise Hill:got a couple of people who've commented uh dean nichols could not have more apt surname could he nichol uh dean nichols said financial education comes from the family background and can make people worry very quickly which i think i think both of you've been saying i think i might have a question here from becca stimpson it says ruth earlier you said money is really emotional and complicated for people which i couldn't agree more with i work for mental health uk which is one of our core focuses is money so that statement the whole conversation really resonates oh it wasn't a question it was just it was a lovely bit of comment it was a bit of feedback thank you for that Becca if you've got questions then we will take those all at the end put the comments on in the in the LinkedIn live okay Lee I think you're going to want to talk about employers yeah Becca thank you for that perfect segue it's like you're looking at like my order yeah financial well-being we talk about it in psychology organizational life well-being is something that we all talk about but the pillars we seem to focus on I think around psychological social physical well-being as you've both said, Louise and Ruth, financial well-being isn't focused on quite as much or perhaps not in a way from your example, Louise, that kind of moves the needle with employees.

33:13Louise Hill:In terms of financial well-being, all this conversation we've had, you know, extends more than just being secure, doesn't it? It allows you to make choices in our lives, in our careers. So, Ruth, can I ask you first, in terms of financial well-being, why do you think it is the most neglected part of workplace wellbeing strategies? And what do you think we can do to change that?

33:37Ruth Handcock OBE:Yeah, I have come to the view that it is a bit of a no brainer for employers to care about this for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, going back to those stats I was talking about earlier, is there is a productivity benefit as an employer of caring about this because your employees are distracted and they are worrying. And if you can help them through that, there is just a positive benefit in how much those individuals feel not only able to focus on work, but actually feel part of a family and feel like you're looking after them as whole people. And then there's that other piece, which is your employees are less likely to leave you for a pay rise if you look after them.

34:17Ruth Handcock OBE:So if that's so obvious to me, at least, why haven't people done it? I think partly there is a, you know, there are waves of responsibility that employers feel. And I think over the last 20 years, we've gone through cycles of employers feeling like they need to look after the whole person to feeling a bit more transactional. And by industry and by, frankly, economic cycle, you'll find employers making different choices. And I think we're in a period where people want to retain talent. You talk about the great stay, but I think people really want to make sure that talented people want to grow with their organization, which if you're an employer, leads you to think, well, how do I make this employee feel as if I care about them, feel as if this isn't just, I pay you, you deliver a job.

35:09Ruth Handcock OBE:This is somewhere where I care about you as a whole person. And money is such a gigantic part of that. I think we started with health because there was a trend to employers filling a perceived gap in people's access to health services where people don't expect access to money services that's the really peculiar thing is people expect access to banking that's about transacting there's no expectation amongst UK society of getting access to long-term money help which is bonkers in my mind I think it is it is sort of something that everyone should get access to but the industry hasn't found commercial ways to provide it.

35:48Ruth Handcock OBE:So because people didn't feel that lack of access, employers didn't feel like there was a space to step into. Where now I think as employers have done it, and there are such spectacular case studies of how successful that is, both from an employee and an employer perspective, you see more employers making that choice as they should, I think. The final thing I'll say is, you know, there could be no one better than an employer to make it because they provide your salary and your pension. And I'm not going to make this podcast about pensions. You know, a pension is there has been this gigantic shift over the last 20 years of the pension being largely the responsibility of the state and your employer.

36:29Ruth Handcock OBE:So today, assuming you work for a private sector organisation, your pension is your responsibility alone. Your employer may contribute it, making sure you have enough money when you retire is your problem. And that shift has happened without us really being as explicit about it as that. So with that responsibility, we need to provide help and the employer is best placed to provide that help. At the moment, we've shifted the responsibility. We haven't quite provided the help to go around it. So I'd argue just sort of societally, there's an obligation on employers to provide that help around pensions.

37:05Louise Hill:Louise, what do you think? I'm thinking about the story you said earlier about the webinars you had to put in to encourage people to access the support is it just because it's a bit awkward like a manager's feeling awkward as well about talking

37:16Ruth Handcock OBE:to their teams about money yeah I think that is part of it and and you know the way we did it was not have um well obviously the managers the leaders introduced the why we were doing it and why we thought it was a good idea but it wasn't us providing the advice because frankly I'm not qualified to provide the advice and most managers, unless they are financial advisors, are not qualified to provide the advice in the same way that I wouldn't provide medical advice. So I think it is a case of the employer partnering with a service that provides that. But there is an element of course of leading by example.

37:57Ruth Handcock OBE:I mean, all of the team I would imagine at GoHenry have heard me on various podcasts and things saying what I wish I'd known about money when I was long younger, some of my financial mistakes and those sort of things, because it's a topic that we talk about as a business. But that isn't the norm. So I think it's about just creating an open environment where people feel they can speak openly. And if somebody is really struggling seriously with money stress, they do feel that they can speak to their manager and maybe get a bit of support. I should say the one correlation I've seen over the years in where a launch to a set of employees is really successful so we get about a third of employees normally sign up for a first session when we launch in a workplace which is astonishing in itself because it just shows you how many people are sitting worrying the biggest correlation with increasing that 30 % is having a leader like Louise who stands up and says this is something you should do if you give employees permission they will suddenly engage.

39:00Ruth Handcock OBE:So it is hugely influential when there are leaders who say, look, I didn't know this either, but having a plan is a really good thing, makes an enormous difference.

39:11Louise Hill:For any leaders, business owners that are listening, is there perhaps a first practical step you'd suggest they start with in terms of starting to work financial well-being support into the organisation?

39:26Ruth Handcock OBE:i think for me it is as a leader it's normalizing it so i think to the extent you feel able to talking about how you feel about money talking about the mistakes you've made talking about the fact that you don't find it easy and no one's born knowing what a pension is is really helpful because that just breaks the ice i think you've then got to combine education and knowledge um with safe space and there are many ways that you can you can deliver a safe space for people to talk about money that may be one-to-one as we do it it may be I've seen some organizations who set up um team dinners where you'll go and talk about how do you think about your money and it's all peers so actually if people feel more confident talking about it in front of their peers than they might do if their manager's in the room or there are all sorts of ways of doing it but I would just recognize it's personal it's emotional there's a huge need um and your people team which is where the questions probably end up feel terrified that they're going to get it wrong.

40:26Ruth Handcock OBE:So when someone comes to them in financial hardship, you as a leader need to give your people team the tools to be able to deal with that because it's a stressful time for them. They want to help, but they might not know what they can and can't say and actually what the right help to offer at that point is. So I think if you think upskilling, leading by example, and then creating a safe space, To me, those are the principles of the sort of support you want to put in place.

40:53Louise Hill:I love that. I love that. I'll be honest, I was bankrupt back in 2007 after a business didn't go well. And I learned more from that money I lost than the money I've ever made. So talking about changing things, this question, I'm going to start with you, Louise, and I want to go to Ruth. Louise, I'm always seeing you at number 10 or in Dowdy Street or something. When you become prime minister and you're redesigning this whole system, what's the first thing you're going to change to fix this then we'll come back to you Ruth

41:21Ruth Handcock OBE:oh my goodness the first thing I would change um we've just taken a big step forward towards that it would be making it a mandatory part of the curriculum in schools and making sure that it's you know that that's almost that's the first step there has to be the time in the curriculum The teachers have to be trained in it. There has to be the funding in place to deliver it properly. And very important from my perspective, it can't just be theoretical. It has to be practical education as well. You know, I've often talked about money skills being a little bit like swimming. You can learn all the theory you want, but you're never actually going to learn to do it until you jump in the water and have a go.

42:08Ruth Handcock OBE:So there has to be a practical element to it. That's that would be the first thing. I was going to say, Prime Minister Louise has already done it. She's got it in schools. The only thing I would add is to me, there's the education and there's the embedding. So I would try and create a desire or obligation on employers to provide help in the workplace because that's where the pension is, because it's a place where employees will trust the service you provide in a workplace in a way that they might worry in the big wide world that they're making the wrong choice so I think allowing employers to harness that power and opportunity they've got and creating trying to create an obligation for them to do that I think would be enormously impactful.

43:01Louise Hill:You've both said so many brilliant things about what that means for for a business for a workforce to feel financially confident that they might stay for meaning and not leave for a higher salary um I think yeah lower turnover more passion in our work more meaning can only be good I wonder and this is a very hypothetical philosophical imagine what if the world looked like question but Louise if we could get it to the point where the majority of us are financially confident what does that mean for things like innovation for leadership for our economy for our society does it have bigger

43:39Ruth Handcock OBE:impacts I think it has massive impacts yes I think you would get more businesses founded so you know I suppose having done what I did in launching GoHenry I know the risk appetite and that you have to have to leave a job and start set up a new business. So I think there would be many more new businesses created, which would be fantastic both for individuals' freedom and for the economy. And I think we would have a much more focused, empowered, excited workforce, which would drive innovation and economic output. Yeah, I agree, actually. I think it's confidence and then innovation. And we know that innovation is the driving force of, you know, if I think about it in a business sense of improved customer outcomes.

44:36Ruth Handcock OBE:So businesses do better things for customers when they are willing to break boundaries and try new things. It has always been true. And we rely on startups to do that. But we also rely on people having the confidence within bigger companies to try new things. And I just think that financial resilience is so deeply correlated with innovation and innovative mindset and activity that I think that unlocks improvement in business, it unlocks improvement in the startup economy. And it probably unlocks productivity and growth, really, because if you're solving more problems for customers in more innovative ways, then UK PLC should be pretty happy too.

45:22Louise Hill:i have a bit of a i have a question i don't know whether you've got an opinion on it i haven't actually seen either of you talk about this but um open ai sam altman i think we've all know what open ai is i think he's a big proponent of something called ubi which is universal basic basic income i think my understanding is that he's saying well why don't we just give everyone enough money to survive and then we can go and do all the things we want to do like ski use ai to build businesses whatever first of all what is that is that what i've understood is correct and secondly i like both of your opinions on on that what happens if that is that a good

45:53Ruth Handcock OBE:idea well that is a big old question my goodness we're into um we are into changing the world now well i mean my slightly my slightly flippant view and i've i've heard um sam altman talk about this whether that's exactly what he means i i can't tell you i guess when i look historically there has been no period of rapid change that has produced a life of leisure. So they said it would be true of the industrial revolution. It wasn't. They said it would be true of dot com. It wasn't. We as humans tend to find stuff to fill our time and we tend to want to be more productive. So do I think AI will allow us all to kick back and receive a free wage?

46:33Ruth Handcock OBE:There's nothing in history that shows me that that's the case. Although, goodness, I am not an AI expert. And I've certainly heard people say that I'm wrong if I look at that going forward and this one's different. If you put that to one side, I think my personal view is productivity and work is quite good for the human condition. So I think we experience positive mental health by feeling as if we are contributing to society. So do I think it would be lovely if everyone had a basic standard of living? Absolutely. Do I think using that as a way to increase leisure time is good for us as humans?

47:13Ruth Handcock OBE:I'm not sure. I think many people do work too hard and there are many people in many parts of the world for whom having more financial freedom would be immensely beneficial. But do I think uncoupling income and work is necessarily good for us? I'm less sure about that, actually. I think I certainly personally get a lot of satisfaction about having something to aim for and achieving it um and i i've i've yet to fully figure out in my own mind how um how some altman's view of the future um combines with with that view of what makes humans happy louise any thoughts yeah i i was going to go back to the um the word that was used in the title of this session purpose you know if work would

48:08Ruth Handcock OBE:are you still here i'm still here let me see i think we might have lost louise one second let

48:14Louise Hill:me just see if i can put her back in one second just about to learn what our universal purpose was

48:21Ruth Handcock OBE:it was hugely dramatic and then you'd gone I disappeared. Oh, dear. Do you want to start from your beginning?

48:31Louise Hill:I don't think we got your intro and I don't think we got two points.

48:35Ruth Handcock OBE:Yeah. So work gives people a huge amount of purpose. You know, that was the point, part of the title that we were talking about today. And I would fear that if all of us were able to go off and play golf all day, we would lose a lot of the energy and purpose and pleasure that we get from doing a job that we care about so you know the difference between getting financially confident and getting to a place where you are able to do a job that you actually care about and want to be in that's one thing removing that entirely that that yeah but I don't like the sound of that I think a lot of people would be very lost.

49:25Louise Hill:I agree I agree okay we've got time for just a couple more questions are you two okay for a time here have we got another five minutes? Fabulous. First we just want to say thank you to a couple of people who've commented Louise Webster she's obviously agreeing with both of you she's saying that focusing on beyond school which I think is encapsulated I'm guessing that's one of Louise's ventures beyond school she's bridging the gap between school and work so if anyone wants to learn more about that go and search for Louise Webster. And then Helen, now Helen, I'm so sorry, I'm not going to get your surname right here.

49:54Louise Hill:Helen O 'Riordan. I'm so sorry. I know that's not right. She just basically said she's set up for any women in or around London. She said the Women's Informal Investing Network in 2024 to talk about all this kind of thing. So obviously go and check that out. But there's no, we're not saying that it's good or bad. We're just saying that's what she's commented. I just want to make sure you're not, we're not sort of, you know, I'm trying to say. So I have a question here from one of our previous um previous guests um she's talking more around about the idea of uh leadership behaviors so she says looking back on your own journey what's one widely accepted success norm you've had to actively unlearn does that make any sense does there's one thing that can jump to your mind

50:38Ruth Handcock OBE:i'm sorry i totally put you on the spot here aren't i no it's a great question it is do you No, sorry, we're both jumping in. I'm trying to think of, so a success norm. I'm going to turn that slightly, not getting emotional. So somewhere, somebody wrote the rule book that leaders are not supposed to get emotional. And the team at GoHenry will tell you, and a few interviewers I've spoken to will tell you that I am very capable of getting quite emotional, particularly when I'm talking either about some of the incredible things our team have achieved or some of our case studies you know and talking about changes in in families lives and children's children's outcomes and I used to really really worry about that I used to think that it made me look weak and a worse leader and so I have made myself unlearn that I actually think it shows that I really really care I love that and I'm gonna go for one that's probably a bit more of a cliche actually which is I certainly spent the first half of my career thinking I was supposed to know the answers and you have this point where you think you are you are employed for your competence and you go into a meeting you'd be like yeah I know that I'm like thinking I don't know that but you feel as if you should show up and I think the bit that I've learned is vulnerability that just saying I don't know I'm not sure about that yet I don't know what the right judgment is I'm going to go away and find out but I'm relying on the people around me to help and I've definitely moved from feeling like I should be an island and I should be able to do everything to recognizing that I'm people are going to be better than me at most things and so the more open I am to help the better the decisions I'm going to make are so showing up with vulnerability i think is a is probably my best example i love this i love this that question i

52:39Louise Hill:forgot to say was from megan french dumb dumbart known as mfd to her friends she's got a great book called this isn't working just an awesome awesome person and a really funny funny woman so i definitely go and check her out i've got a couple more here in the comments we've probably got time to do both of these uh first of all um yes i think there is a question this is from richard lee who i think i'm connected to on richard quite newly actually i'm gen z and i'm one of these kids buying and selling on depop at 14 years old what the hell what what's depop do we know a trading platform

53:08Ruth Handcock OBE:yeah yeah yeah yeah various clothes and stuff yeah it is i am so old says the legend needs

53:16Louise Hill:to become a founder i've become i've built a community of 10 000 people are founders in the uk amazing what do you all think we can do to better the level of financial well-being for self-employed people oh interesting yeah I think I've come across some startups looking at this

53:33Ruth Handcock OBE:actually because I think it's really underserved area and both in terms of how do you how do you run your how do you get used to running your business but then also how do you look after your personal finances when all of the kind of legal and tax structures around being self-employed are quite um different so I definitely have a little bit of a scan of the market because I have come across a few founders looking at precisely this um this challenge because i think it is underserved and it's so positive that it's a market that's growing because it means more people are translating those side hustles into entrepreneurial careers which is absolutely awesome um so i do think it's a it's an area where you'll see more more startups popping up well i was going to say that i i know that um zero um run a whole um information well no not information program i'm trying to think what to call it but um they run a whole program that is accessible to any of their customers um that teaches and guides on money management for self-employed people and there's also a wonderful lady called Lucy Cohen who does something very similar so those are two places that you could go and have

54:48Louise Hill:a look for that we should also mention our friends perks led by Stella Smith who offers corporate level benefits to self-employed people and small businesses I believe that financial advisory is part of that package as well yeah it's like five pounds a month per person you get it's it's really be good we we use that um okay so i've got my own last question which we'll see if we've got time for this one is from uh alicia page she says uh essentially she's saying are there any countries out there that you think are doing financial well a financial education well i wish there were

55:25Ruth Handcock OBE:i wish there were there were different investing trends in different markets um we haven't talked about investing uh because again i don't want to make this about pensions but um but you do see some markets where people have got into investing habits. So Germany is an example, people have got into the habit of saving a little bit into an investment account each month, which is generally really positive for people's long term financial outcomes. In the US, you see a lot more workplace participation in financial advice, largely because people have more complicated tax affairs. So you can look to that market for some models that work really well.

56:04Ruth Handcock OBE:But again, it's trying to recognize that people have really high levels of individual accountability on their finances in the US from, you know, health outcomes to personal tax. So there's been an obligation or a requirement for employers to help people with that. I think the sad reality is I see few models in any markets where really good quality financial advice and planning is available in the mass market. There are many examples, the UK being one, where getting access to that help if you've got complicated financial affairs and or are wealthy. There are some absolutely phenomenal people who can help you.

56:41Ruth Handcock OBE:The mass market, I think, globally is relatively underserved. Don't know, Louise, whether you've come across any examples. No. I mean, we looked hard for other countries that had outstanding financial education programmes. Obviously, our interest was starting in schools. And the answer is not really. There are one or two. Singapore is quite good. Some of the Nordic countries have some things in place, but it's astounding to me how many have nothing or very little in place. I do think one of the things that actually AI has the potential to democratize is access to much, much better financial advice for all of us.

57:27Ruth Handcock OBE:You know, it's one of those things that it shouldn't be for the wealthy or people with complex affairs. It should be for every single one of us to be able to access high quality information that helps guide our financial decisions. And I'm very hopeful that AI will start to push forward many more players in that space that really can democratize it.

57:54Louise Hill:Fabulous. What an amazing place to leave it. I think, Leanne, anything else to say before we... Just to say, two fabulous organisations here that are trying to make changes and waves in terms of financial education literacy. So definitely go check out Octopus Money and go, Henry. Louise, thank you so much. I'm guessing it's the best place for people to find you if they've got any questions linked in. Is that where they should go? Yeah, absolutely. Great. So we'll leave links to that as well. We should mention that this video will be reposted on LinkedIn and YouTube and the audio will be live on our podcast stream later today.

58:29Louise Hill:Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to speak with you and I feel like I've learned so much and I think I need to go learn more about investing. You should go Henry when I was a kid. Okay, right. Well, we'll see you all very soon, by the way. Quickly, thank you, Georgia Hodkinson and Anna Lane. Sorry we didn't get to your comments, but thank you very much for that. And if you like this kind of thing, then hopefully more of this and obviously go follow these two amazing women. See you soon. Bye.