296. Why has $5 Trillion NVIDIA scrapped performance reviews? PLUS! Microsoft’s voluntary retirement, well-being hacks and the truth about the change curve, with Matt Furness

0:01Coming up this week in work. Microsoft have just launched a one-time retirement program targeting employees whose age plus years of service equals 70 or more. They're calling it voluntary, giving people the option to leave on their own terms. But is this genuinely a choice or is it a sneaky way of reshaping the workforce? I'm a bit concerned about that. I'm pretty sure I'm on 100 if you add those two things up. What if everything you knew about managing people is completely wrong? What if you didn't have one-to-ones? What if there wasn't identical pay for everyone at the top? And what if you didn't have 55 direct reports?

0:38I mean, this sounds like a complete disaster, doesn't it? Well, the CEO running this system just hit a valuation of$5 trillion. Yes, with a T,$5 trillion. So maybe he knows something the rest of us don't. And in truth or lie, the Kubler-Ross change curve. Five neat stages that supposedly explain how people move through grief or major change. but does the research actually back it up? Well, we have got a very special guest leading us through the research. Matt Furness, business psychologist and founder of Clip. And in the workplace surgery, one small business owner is losing good people to bigger companies who are offering more money and better benefits.

1:14They're starting to wonder, at what point is culture a genuine differentiator? This is Truth, Lies & Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Al, I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together, we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace coaches. If you've listened before, have a guess what I'm about to say.

1:43We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. Yes, you were right. You know that feeling when you've decided on a content strategy. The brief is written, everyone's aligned, and you realise someone still has to sit down and actually create all this content. That someone is you and it's due tomorrow. That someone is often me. But luckily, Bree's assistant can help. It works right inside HubSpot, drafting campaign copy and blog posts and emails, all in your brand voice. It's grounded in your actual customer data too. So you don't just create content, you create content that converts.

2:16What a line. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

2:25Hello, welcome back. Welcome back. By the way, if you're listening, Richard, I have seen your email. I'm so sorry. It was sunny over the weekend. There was beer in the fridge. I sat and I should have answered your email, but instead I read a really rubbish book on my Kindle and drank a few beers. So sorry. I will get back to you, I promise, because he sent a really nice email. Do you remember he sent it last week? Yes. Well, he's now sent an email. He said basically this person should play you in the biopic. and I was expecting, you know that weird guy from Afterlife with glasses and the beard who goes, oh, I know.

3:00But it wasn't. It was a really good looking guy. Well, you are a good looking guy, my love. As my mother used to say, a face perfect for podcasts. Anyway, Lee, what else is going on? Hello, Pat. Well, speaking of Richard, for anyone who didn't listen last week and you're wondering what the heck we're talking about, we've got a lovely listener and upcoming guest called Richard Clarke and he was telling us about how much he loves Truth and Lies. It's actually knocked Adam Grant off his podcast Listenlist. And I found this very, very exciting. Until this morning. Oh, no. Because I think Adam got wind of this.

3:32He's a listener. I know that. I know that much. I think Adam heard this and was like, right, well, I'm going to have to up my game if I'm going to get Richard back as a listener. Do you know what he's doing? What? He's starting another podcast. What? Yeah. It's called the Curiosity Shop. But do you know what Adam has done? What? He's taken from our format, and he's got himself a co-host. Do you know who that co-host is? No. Brene Brown. Oh, for God's sake. We're screwed. Richard, we wish you well. Good luck. I'll see you over there. Yeah. Oh, God. It's like one of those things, you just go, sigh, okay, subscribe.

4:11Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, screw you, Adam. Actually, again, hoping I don't get clipped on. like last week i was clip saying and so steve steve jobs came on stage hoping i don't get saying screw you adam because that's not that that's it we take huge amount of inspiration from him but we also yeah we do we also have been campaigning to get him on the show for quite some time to come on and sort it out adam tell me is your podcast the number one podcast in management in the uk it's not right now al because we are thank you everyone thank you thank Thank you, thank you. Thank you to that person who I spoke to and said, what can I do to make your podcast better, to help?

4:50And I said, well, you could probably just... Listen to it. Yeah, I said, just press play and play all our episodes over and over again for the next three weeks. Including the ads. Including the ads. And I believe they've done that, so thank you for that. Well, thank you. Thank you, everyone. So yeah, no, I haven't listened to it yet, but it was actually Dr. Hayley Lewis who was saying how much she very, well, she very much enjoyed the new podcast, The Curiosity Shop. How dare you. Well, she's not contractually bound only like us whatever it's called bound friendship bound we don't hold our friends to that no we want more good podcasts in the world it's just really hard to take when it's some two very heavy hitters that are in your category but I'll go listen I'll report back next week I have a feeling I'm going to like it talking of reporting Leanne I think it's time for your favourite no I've got something else for you I've got something else for you in case anyone wondered whether this was scripted or rehearsed no clearly not what have you got Leanne?

5:44Um, so, right, you know Simon Squibb? Oh, but he's a what? No. Have you got a dream? Oh, is he the stepladder guy? The ladder guy? No, tell me who Simon Squibb is. The career ladder guy. I love that guy. No, tell me who Simon Squibb is. You know Simon Squibb. You've got his book. British guy. Do you have a dream? Oh, yes. He built a weird little thing with a staircase or something. Do you know what? I have no idea what Simon Squibb has actually done, other than he's a successful entrepreneur. Right. Who now asks people if they have a dream, and he tries to help them, which I admire, but he sometimes come across as a little bit arrogant.

6:16Right. A little bit pushy. We all need a bit of a push from time to time but I saw this and it's the most cringeworthy video I've seen for some time. So I'm going to play it to you and I want you to know what you think. You ready? Yeah, we're going to do it the proper way where you'll edit it in or are you just going to play it through your microphone? No, I'm just going to play it through my microphone. It's just easier in post. Terrible.

6:35Matt Furness:Excuse me. Get off your phone and I've got an important question to ask you. What's your dream? Living my dream. Are you? How are you living here? What is it? Nice truck, by the way. Thanks. I'm writing books, making podcasts, helping the world. Living my dream. I've got 15 million followers online. I can help you out. I know it's hard to get a book out there and people might not have heard of it. What's the name of your book? The Subtle Art and Not Giving a Fuck. I'm sorry. He just, Mark, Mark, Mark, what's his called? Yes. Oh, no. And he didn't recognize him. He did not recognize him. yeah Mark Mark Manson Manson Marilyn's brother yeah oh my god oh that's awkward wait for it wait for it that is quite a well known book what's the number one thing you can teach people about not giving a fuck what do you think it is well the way they're not giving a fuck about something is to find something more important to give a fuck about have you got time to come on my podcast and like break down exactly what you mean now it turns out I think this was a this was like a a promo jokey video because he now is on his podcast but i just but i have also seen him do it other times i saw him do it to a um a woman who was sat reading a children's book to her daughter and he was just like what's this book you know why don't you write your own book of this what you're into and she's like it is my book and worse than that it was like some kind of brilliant NGO that's like helping kids all over the world to read and stuff.

8:10So I thought that was really cringe and I wanted to share it. Can you imagine going up to somebody if it was real? I have a feeling it wasn't. It could have been. We were talking about this the other night, that, you know, you see a street busker doing a bit of Teddy Swims cover and then Teddy Swims happens to walk by because he's on his way to go and post a letter or something, post Malona letter. And you're like, come on now. And he's like, would you like to sing? and he's like yeah go on i'll give it a go and it's like oh man yeah it is funny though it's happened to me only once when i was and quite recently actually you know i went back for that um what's it called a baby shower oh yeah i ended up going out with with a friend and having too many cocktails hello hi laura um but i was there was a guy who was a friend who was chatting on my friend because she's single and fabulous so i was just basically like just spare wheeling at that point so i was chatting to him he was just i was like what do you do and he started talking about how he was a chef and how he's had to make some really big life adjustments because it's a very stressful job and he experienced a lot of anxiety and blah blah so he actually just recently cut down his hours and he's focusing more on the type of food he wants to cook and the type of impact he wants to have and do the sustainability blah blah i'm probably talking for about 10 minutes so that's really interesting he went what do you do i was like i'm a psychologist he was like oh am i doing the right thing i was like dude i don't know i've only just met you but yeah it sounds good good for you when i first met leanna and i very first day i've said this to the pod before very first day i started to explain to leanna what i just learned about body language and she's like yeah i know i'm a psychologist and i was like it wasn't that i said what do you do and i was like i'm studying my master's in organizational psychology and you went oh No.

9:50No. Lee, what have you seen? Oh, we need to do a jingle. Let's do a jingle. Yeah, cue the jingle out. Time for the news roundup, my favourite time of the week. Yay! Okay, cue the jingle, cue the jingle. Lee, what have you seen? Is Microsoft encouraging older workers to leave? Yes. Yeah, props. That's what I saw. Definitely encouraging spouses of CEOs and owners to leave. Yeah. But behind you, that sounds like it might be a darker thing that's going to come out than wash. So leave that alone. Microsoft and their workers. We'll circle back to that. We'll leave that on an island on its own. Maybe.

10:22Okay. I need to give a shout out to Maureen Wiley-Clough. What a name, Maureen. So many great names. Mo, I love your name. Maureen, I saw this on LinkedIn. She posted about this and I went and found the original article from CNBC. And it's basically about how Microsoft is currently managing its workforce, workforce given the rise of AI. So the company is launching a one-time retirement program. It's the first of its kind and it is aimed at very specific employees. It's open to US staff at senior director level and below, where their age plus years of service adds up to 70 or more. So clearly targeting long tenure, more experience, they say.

11:06Let's be honest, older employees. Hold on, does the maths work there? Because if I'm 40 and I've been working for Microsoft likely for 20 years, that's not me. Oh, now I get it. You get it? That penny just dropped, my friend. Did you actually hear the penny drop? Oh, I see. So we're talking 50 is basically what we're saying. Is that right? Okay. Yeah. I love how real-time listeners got to see how stupid I was. And by the way, I did a maths degree. Okay, carry on. So around 7 % of the US workforce could be eligible, although that figure hasn't been formally confirmed. Microsoft says the intention is to give people the option to leave on their own terms with company support rather than forcing redundancies.

11:53Eligible employees will receive more details apparently in early May. And notably, those on sales incentive plans won't be included. Oh, those clever, pesky little senior executives there. The people that are bringing in the revenue won't be affected. Nice. At the same time, the company is making a separate change to how people are rewarded. So Microsoft are decoupling stock awards from cash bonuses in its annual performance process, which apparently gives managers more flexibility to reward high performers. It's also apparently simplifying performance reviews and reducing the number of pay options that managers can choose from.

12:29But of course, all this is happening against the context of a backdrop of AI. So Microsoft, like the rest of the tech sector, is heavily investing in AI infrastructure and data centers, while parts of the traditional software workforce are facing disruption. On the surface, yeah, it's a voluntary program. You know, it gives people control. But if we step back, I think there's some bigger questions, Al. And I'm not sure at this point you're going to be that surprised by what they are. Yeah. Is this a way of just reshaping the workforce in a way that targets older employees? And if the company does do that, what institutional knowledge are we going to lose from our senior members of staff?

13:15And more importantly, what does this say about the value of older employees in the world of work? Thoughts? this immediately sounds like someone in marketing has got involved in this because this is a very clever rebrand of voluntary retirement this is all it is is saying do you want do you want to retire yeah okay and it's just but what what is quite clever about it is that it makes people first of all it's very specific so it talks to a very specific type of person even though it doesn't it's very clever because it actually you can actually go oh wait you just just you know I'll arrange people.

13:50So it's that. Secondly, it makes people realize how long they've spent there, which is a clever way of doing it. Yeah, I have put in 25 years. Maybe it is time that I went and become a goose farmer, which is what that fabulous CV on a resume or whatever you want to call it, bio on LinkedIn. And it's got like someone who was at Microsoft for 26 years. And he's like, and then you just see all these positions they took. So like head of this, head of that, VP of this, VP of that, senior VP of this. and it just said, goose farmer. Amazing God, I've had enough. You know that meme where it's got the guy who just throws all the papers to the floor and goes, F this shit.

14:27Yeah, yeah. And thirdly, does it get round the legalities of saying we want to get rid of everyone who's over the age of 50? Well, I guess it must have in the US for them to be able to put it in place anyway. See, now what's interesting about people, I'm sure a lot of people know this, but Bill Gates' dad was a lawyer. and so you can tell a big bill date bill gates dad was a lawyer was because when you used to get the microsoft pack of discs floppy discs 3.5 inch hard disk drives 3.5 inch discs you used to open it and i had a bit of a sticker on there going by opening this packet you accept all our terms and conditions you didn't have to take anything you basically as soon as you ripped open that packet you were microsoft had you owned you owned you and i think this is a kind of similar thing where They've gone very clever going, ah, I'm just kidding.

15:19Anyway, sorry. Tell us what really is going on rather than my just rambles. I think what you've said, it's what my concern is, because on paper it's like, yeah, for some people this could be a really great thing. It could be that people are thinking about being goose farmers, but don't have necessarily the funds and this payout could give them the resources and means and run away that they need to go and pursue their dream and their meaningful work now they are in the later stage of their career. but there is going to be probably a larger percentage of people who are quite happy in their job because this isn't like this is below senior or scene director and below so it's not like the super high levels it's those people that have reached the level they're comfortable with are enjoying their work and let's be honest if you work for a company like Microsoft is a huge part of their identity particularly with them with the company for a number of years probably in this case at least 10 plus so I just worry that actually for those people there's not going to be any wraparound care in terms of how you're actually going to manage this because there's a long way to go between 50 and proper retirement especially these days so i don't think it's necessarily a bad idea but i would feel more i'd feel more reassured if this was opened out as more of a voluntary redundancy program rather than voluntary retirement i think it gives a very clear message what tech companies think of older employees i think i'd also be much more reassured if this is part of something bigger in terms of wraparound, what is meaningful work to you, coaching type, is it entrepreneurialism, is it that you've smashed your savings and you can actually afford to retire at 52?

16:55I just think it's sending out some messages. And the real concern for me is that Microsoft is a key tech company, isn't it, that leads the way. I can see this rippling in other organizations doing this. And essentially what it is, is a very clever way of getting rid of people 50 55 plus do you know as you were saying that i was just thinking wouldn't it be maybe it'll be fun maybe it's stupid but maybe it'd be fun if you just went instead of saying this you go if anyone's over the age of 50 and they've thought about doing something different so for example bill gates does support a lot of like ecological things and say you want to do something that's around the environment something that's around like farming whatever if you send in your pitch then we will fund your first two years on that on that venture for example probably the same as giving them the voluntary retirement but again it's reframing it to be something like how about we support your dreams rather than how about you get the hell out of my office so that i can replace you with a with an agent that costs about four dollars a month and the key difference there is that messaging in terms of can we help you move on to your the next stage of your career that suggests that we believe you still have a huge amount of value to offer potentially microsoft or the wider you know world but this is basically is an underlying sentiment of we don't think you have any value so if if these numbers add up to 70 if you could just move on now please that'd be great and that's why i just think it's a bit icky fair enough fair enough we should have got sean o'shane to talk about this sean's um sean's upcoming guest and a really cool guy on LinkedIn and also worked for Microsoft, I think for eight years under Barmer.

18:38And then I always forget the new Microsoft CEO's name. I forget his name. But anyway, he works under them both. So interesting. He'll be talking about that on his interview. Yeah. And also go and check out Maureen on the odd LinkedIn. I'll leave a link in her show now. She also has a newsletter that talks about issues impacting mid-late careers. It's called It Gets Late Early. Oh, that's clever. Yeah. Oh, I like that. So go to itgetslateearly.com to subscribe to her newsletter and podcast. Go and find out more about Momo mid-late Korea. Okay, so I want to talk about something I've seen, which also includes a huge, huge company.

19:14So let me tell you what's happened. So this CEO pays his top executives the exact same dollar amount. It's the same amount for 55 people. This company crossed$5 trillion in market cap on Friday. Wow. So I think a lot of people listening will go, well, this has got to be NVIDIA, and it is NVIDIA. So I saw this on Twitter, Twitter, Twix, X, whatever it's called, by someone who's... Hell. Hell. I enjoy, it's funny, I enjoy Twitter. LinkedIn can't quite get into it. But anyway, this guy is called Akash Gupta. Really, really, I don't know whether he's big on AI. I don't know whether he uses AI to write his posts, but they're so engaging.

19:57So this is very relevant to the LinkedIn Live that's coming out this Friday, which is all about AI and writing. Definitely listen out for that. It's a really, really interesting LinkedIn Live, about sort of 70 minutes with some really, really clever people on there. But anyway, that's not what I'm here to talk about. So - Gets the point, Al. Come on, we've all got things to do. I'm sorry. Jensen Huang, right? Okay, I hope I'm saying his name. Basically, he's got the seven things that this tweet suggests that they do at NVIDIA. First of all, he pays all top 55 executives exactly the same amount.

20:26So every single one of them get the same 1.5 million cash bonus. No negotiation, no pecky order. That's it. Sorry, 1.5 million cash bonus. So they're on different salaries or... Oh, great. Do you know what? I should have researched that. I do not have that information at hand.

20:45I inferred that they all took home the same amount of money. Okay, let's infer that then. Yeah, so that's my implication as a listener, that's your inference. So the beauty of that, though, is that they're saying there's no negotiation, there's no pecking order, there's no one, oh, he pays, she gets more than me. Not finance is worth more than HR kind of thing. Exactly. He also, of these 55, bear in mind, these are 55 people who talk directly to him. It does sound a bit chaotic because most sort of like companies of this size have 10 SVPs or ESVPs, whatever, and then it goes down the ladder. Microsoft, for example, they've probably got 10 layers of management to get down.

21:22Not anymore, they have. because you know that that number's going to be 70 but Nvidia has almost a flat company now just in case anyone's not heard of Nvidia then they are they make the chips that AI runs on so the majority of AI data data centers buy Nvidia chips business must be good business is very fucking good very very flipping good so number three he never does one-to-ones he doesn't sort of pop by and have a catch up if he has something to say 55 people join a call and they hear it all at the same time sounds brutal but then you think well actually you know what jensen said because he said it to all at the same time um he doesn't do performance reviews um he just doesn't do it just does an annual review document there's no structured feedback process his system is the meeting apparently according to this uh so you know how you do because you're doing the work in front of everyone and everybody knows um and then i'll just pick one other um he said he spends almost zero time managing his executives.

22:21Now, this is important because the average Fortune 500 CEO is probably going to spend between 30 % and 40 % of the week on executive overheads. That's your one-to-ones. That's your comp reviews. That's your mediating. Who said what? Jensen runs the same headcount with essentially none of that. Lee, is this madness? It's interesting, isn't it, that Mark Zuckerberg is having to clone himself to be able to spend enough time with his people. Talked about that last week, didn't we? He did. um and so what's this dude's name uh jensen huang jensen and jensen's taking a very different approach what do i like about it i like the same pay everyone's giving equal value here whatever vertical it is that you're in so you're all paid the same let's not argue about that because that's the stuff that people argue about and get in civil about so i like that um i think there can be too much time spent on overly formal performance reviews i'd like to see what that annual one looks like and whether these kind of all hands meetings he has actually speaks to individual potentially whether it be priorities or drivers or whether all the same my overall feeling is that in a cash rich company you can afford for one or two people who are very high paying to mess up a little bit and not matter so much so I wonder whether actually a different climate for this company a different stage of its growth things might shift and I think we've seen this from so many tech companies before who will invest and invest and invest and then you know things will decline and they'll make mass layoffs or they'll you know you'll have hear of big names getting getting um laid off and stuff so i think while the sun is shining you can make hay and it sounds like this is what jensen's doing i think yeah there's some bits to it there's some things i question i certainly wouldn't recommend a business owner of you know who isn't what got a trillion dollar five trillion yeah i wouldn't recommend they do it because it's not it's not the same scenario but i think what i do enjoy is pay transparency pay equality and not spending too much time on performance reviews if you've got that trust in your people and there's ways of measuring it you shouldn't necessarily need to performance review them that's very different from checking in and having conversations about how things are going into the near sport any help so yeah they're my thoughts not very well organised Al I like it I like it well I'll organise them in post-production I think the last thing to say on this just before we go into Leanne's final article is that I think a lot of companies a lot of people in Nvidia and also probably a lot of the executives are vested meaning they've got shares in the company I think it's something like they I think honestly there are more paper millionaires in the employees of NVIDIA than there are in any other company in the world, which is kind of incredible.

25:10But anyway, Lee, we are high on time. So tell me, what else have you seen? High on time and low on. No, anything. I was surprised. We've already used the F word here. Well, we didn't, but Simon Swift did. I didn't, Simon. Yeah, Simon. So what have you seen, my love? What have you seen? What else have I seen? Well-being. Are companies actually missing the one wellbeing investment that actually works? I'll answer this for you. Yes. Excellent. Tell us what it is. Time for the truth or lie. Now, it came from a publication called Wellbeing, which unsurprisingly is about wellbeing. According to this article, most organisations focus their wellbeing spend on things like, you know, our gym memberships, your mental health apps.

25:56Maybe if they're progressive, flexible working, that's all useful. But this article argues that the most overlooked investment is, drum roll please, employee development. Okay. What do I call employee development, Al? Oh God. Recognition? Yeah. Hey! Do you remember me saying, I can't remember if it was the beginning of this year or the latter end of last year, I was like, recognition is going to be huge in the next 12 months, mum. Recognition is so hot right now. So hot right now. basically giving people the chance to learn, grow and build their skills in the role. And this article did call on some pretty fancy data.

26:35Gallup State, the Global Workplace 2026 report, puts global engagement at just 20 % with an estimated$10 trillion loss in productivity. Oof. Yeah, that's almost as much as NVIDIA is getting, isn't it? That's double what NVIDIA is worth. The article is basically saying this isn't about perks. This is about work design. Yeah. And then it brings in some psychology. So they said that self-determination theory identifies three core needs at work, autonomy, relatedness and competence. And highlights that competence, that feeling of getting better at something, is directly linked to higher engagement, better performance and lower burnout.

27:12Yes, it is. Because that symptom of burnout, which we don't talk about as often as like exhaustion, is low self-efficacy, which is a feeling that we're competent in doing our own job. So their point is development is a core driver of well-being. If we look at some retention data points as well, they talk about the Talent LMS 2026 report that found that 73 % of employees would stay longer if their company invested more in learning development. 73%. Wow. So paid cause analysis also shows that organizations with strong learning cultures typically have a 57 % retention rate versus 27 % in those without.

27:48Wow. And financially, the article claims that companies that invest in training seem more than double the income per employee and higher profit margins. So what do we think, Al? Is recognition really hot right now? Yes, 100%. It always is. I mean, there's the seven basic foundations of an amazing workplace culture. Reason, role, relationships, resources, resilience, remote, and of course, recognition. That's in the RX7, which is something Leanne has designed and also writing a book on. No, no, no. Oh, I just made a hype of that play. So yes, 100%, absolutely 100%. Yeah, it's so important. We've heard of this from, in terms of growth hunting, which Gen Z are doing.

28:32We know from other surveys that only really about 40 % of organizations actually develop structured development programs for their people. It seems like a really obvious thing we've been doing to not only help performance and retention, but also well-being because it does, it's such a buffer to burnout if we feel competent and confident in doing our job well. I will leave a link to that in the show notes. Al is telling me we need to move on. Quick like. I'm giving you the sign. If there was music, I'd be playing at the end of the Oscars. Okay, right. We will go for a very short break. On the way back, we're going to be stopping by a lovely gentleman called Matt, who's going to be telling us about his truth or lie.

29:09We'll see you in a second. I don't suppose you've got any good podcast recommendations. Do you know what I do? And coincidentally, this podcast is on the HubSpot Podcast Network. Who knew? The audio professional. we're going to come to that. This Old Marketing is hosted by Joe Polizzi and Robert Rose and it's brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio, Leanne, together. The audio destination for business professionals. Where all podcasts, good podcasts live. Exactly. Joe and Robert are two of the most well-known experts in the content marketing space and they talk about the latest content marketing trends and discuss how businesses can use content to attract and retain customers.

29:43Lovely. Yeah, I've actually been listening. Each podcast show features a discussion of content marketing headlines. We like headlines. Love them. Rants from Geron Robert on what's going on in the industry. We like that too. And this old marketing example from the past that we can learn from. It's always useful, entertaining and never more than 60 minutes. Yeah, I love the recent episode about alternatively influential. These are the micro-influencers who have real impact, but they don't have massive follower counts. Listen to this old marketing wherever you get your podcasts.

30:18Welcome back to Truth or Lie. you know what I'm about to say. It's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask if the research actually backs it up. This week, Leanne can take a bit of a break. We've got a special guest who's going to take us through the whole thing. Matt Furness or Furness is a business psychologist, a behavioral scientist and a founder of CLIC, which is a behavioral science consultancy with over a decade of experience helping organizations work through exactly this kind of culture and change challenge. Yeah, Matt is pretty awesome. If you follow him on LinkedIn, you'll know that he posts about this kind of stuff all the time in his B-Sci BS series.