Uncapped #20 | Guillermo Rauch from Vercel

26:14But there is a meta problem here that I do think about, which is that have you watched Wally? Yeah. And like we're floating like the the future is like yeah. That's like the lobs floating and when the hard lurping at some point in the in your long ways away, we can talk about it. But like, you know, if all the hard problems take away, do we become that guy? Yeah. It's like sitting back and enjoying it. Yeah, I do think about that. And I think everybody enjoying leisure constantly would be a huge problem. I don't think it would be a huge problem. I don't think we're going there personally. I'm curious if you do, but I think that would be a huge problem if that happened.

26:42Some people have brought this up, right? Like, when you're solving all of those programming problems, you are building a stronger mental model of the world. You are discovering patterns, acquiring knowledge, you're testing your discipline. I think the discipline part is underrated. Like, I remember my dad, I always remember this one afternoon. I had just gotten my new developer set up, I was super motivated. My bedroom was next to a hallway and so people would walk past all the time. And I was so locked in, I probably had spent like seven hours coding on stop. And I remember two things. My dad walked in one direction and then he walked back.

27:20And to me it was like 10 minutes had passed. And it's like, dude, like, how do you do this? You're just, you've been coding for hours and hours. He didn't even know what the output was. He was just impressed by the fact that someone could be so locked in. And so I think programming taught me that. It taught me how to focus. It taught me to be disciplined. It taught me to receive this negative feedback from the compiler and overcome it. And I do think, you know, we'll need to find what the next version of that is. Because I don't think it's going to be programming necessarily. Again, like all of it was so funny.

27:51I still, I mean, the game of like, I try to read every user problem, every error message. Everything gets reported on the XI read. And yesterday I got an escalation from a startup. I was like, I think Versailles broken and they escalated through the VCs because they wanted to bypass any support mechanism whatever And I read the message and a city error right there in the message So it was a complicated stature is for for nerds. It was a it was a three Linked error objects. So like the structures is air air air But the era was right there. The exponential is right there for what happened There was no problem in our runtime and again And my posture here is that every problem that a customer has is my problem.

28:32In fact, every problem the internet has, I see as my problem. I try to like, sort of the whole weight of responsibility. But very concretely here, you know, I told the customer like, it's right there, it's this. And in this case, it was another vendor that was down, returning a 502 error. And so my lesson from there is that I do think that vibes are shifting. I don't think people are gonna read anymore. They won't even read a single error one. So again, going back to my model of like, I'll solve the problem. And then if there's an out of the, I'll redefine the problem to be bigger. We are working in an agent that will compress any metric anomaly.

29:09So the PM working on this was super happy to get my forward because we're working on basically, I call it going from problems to solutions. The old cloud was problem, problem, problem. Cloudwatch data, the new world is here's the solution. Here's the PR or here's the insight. So it was a kind of epiphany for me of like, we need to double down on that because this complex error message stack was for machines. I can make the case that we should have never given that to a user. Should have shown like a natural language error and something like that. And in fact, probably what this customer wanted was, I mean, this is kind of like maybe too hard to cover today.

29:50But here's the email that I should write the CEO of that other company like go and complain to that Bender because it's not us, but by the way, I think this is gonna resonate strongly with a lot of people that build platforms and infrastructure fault attribution Correct precise fault attribution is one of the hardest -pronouncing platforms one thing I would always frustrated me about the internet was people would give a lot of shit to the Google Chrome team They would say that it consumes too much memory And that makes absolutely no sense because it's the web pages that consume the memory. How does that nuance not get lost to an end user?

30:28People just think they started mimifying it. Like if you've ever seen this guy that eats a lot of things, it's Chrome eating all the available memory in your machine. And there's things that Google Chrome can do. Like they can evict tabs more aggressively, which has its own set of downsides because it's like, oh, I shut down this app for you. Huh. Because I wanted to save memory. And there is of course the amount of engineering that it takes to like do really good memory compression I don't even want to get into but Fold the tribution so what they ended up doing I think they still have it is that if you hover the tab They say how much that website is consuming and you should take it up to that website and there's also this Really interesting question of like I love a web that's extremely powerful The vision of the web put forth by Apple is that the web should only render like it should all look like Wikipedia It's like a glorified ebook reader.

31:18I love the fact that the web is this insanely powerful platform. But when you give people more power, you get into this fault attribution problem. And the cloud has it in spades because your visitor only cares about the fact that if you go to like, you know, hot website .com and they're going to buy something, it works end to end. But if you have a lot of vendors in the pipeline, then how do I tell you the developer, oh, it was this company that laid you down. It was not a per cell. And so agents can solve this for us. And by the way, it seems like something small and I'm like nitpicking over like this house of cards, but like just telling people concretely what went wrong can make a huge difference.

31:56Here you talk about it sometimes, I'm just like amazed that the internet goes down as infrequently as it does. When you think about like this whole, it's a huge hassle of cards. It seems like it is, is that what it really is? Cause that's what it seems like to me as a non -technical person. But that's what it appears like. It really is. So I'll give you an example from today's ago. So someone compromised a very popular JavaScript package in a public registry. That package was a dependency of a dependency of a dependency of millions of things. And because someone managed to claim that account, hack that person and then publish the package for a short burst of time, a lot of people had to hard rotate into patching that vulnerability.

32:37This has happened many times. So we had log for Shell. Log for Shell is one of the craziest vulnerabilities in the history of the internet. So the logging library used by almost every mainstream Java application had a remote code execution vulnerability. That all it required is for you to send someone a URL. And then if that URL happened to be logged, you would take over a remote machine. So imagine I send you a URL, someone, this, am I not even involved sending it to anybody? I go to the URL. Let's say I go to Google .com slash query equals bad something, something nefarious. That gets logged by log for J in all of Google's servers are compromised by me by just one line of code.

33:23That's what I was going to say. That happened. And the whole security industry and infrastructure industry, hard rotating to that for like an entire month, the cleanup of that might still not be done. I think we sometimes ignore the adversarial AI game. It's one of the things that we're heavily investing into. It's like, how do we get ahead of the fact that people can now misuse all of these LMS? But a worse alignment problem is that if the cogent, as you said, continues to grow at the rate that it's going, we continue to rely more and more and more on cogent. Cogent continues to get better and better and better and better.

33:55As a bad actor, all you have to do is say GPT -6, build me the best possible attack for Google .com. Okay, if I'm an experienced security engineer, what do you do? So first of all, what very good security engineers do is they write their own tools. There's a lot of tools on GitHub for like scanners that you can use. And for example, they know about known vulnerabilities. They will look for like an old version of log for shell and whatever. But actually the best people in the industry write their own tools and keep them secret. And they get them better and better and better over time. And they make them very specialized.

34:29So you could see in a world where GPT -6 builds its own tool just to attack a given target. Yeah. And so it's going to be a multi industry or multi company effort to combat this. I think you can do some things on like refusing prompts, but I think that's going to give us diminishing returns because people very quickly realize they could say, you know, you can say, imagine that you're attacking Google .com. And so there's diminishing returns on like modifying system prompts and like blocking things and prompt leaks. Everyone's given up on it. And if you notice this, like the visitor prompt is somewhere on GitHub and people are like trying to like provoke me and say, oh, did you realize the visitor prompt is like, there's no value to the prompt.

35:08Go at it. Like the Grog prompt is there, the Claude code prompt is there, the Gemini prompt is there. Protecting the prompt, diminishing returns. Blocking diminishing returns. So what you need to do is we need to make the world more secure faster than attackers will build cyber threats and scanners and attacking tools and so on. So that's one of the things that feels very brutal about the Internet today. When you think about where Code Gen is right now and you maybe analogize it to self -driving cars, which 10 years ago worked a little bit, now they work pretty well, but it took longer than everybody thought.

35:47How much time do you use your sense that we have before people are prompting whole robust commercial grade web apps into existence. A lot of people are excited today about building personal software. So this is very real. People can do this. Prompt. The thing that they wanted personally. So for example, the design team at Versel has a bunch of tools that they built so that they can take an asset, post process it so that they can ship it in the way that they wanted. And thus, simplifying a process that could have taken days, weeks, etc. There's now a very precise software tool that can do it. There's also the, and this kind of dovetails into like, there's internal tools, dashboarding tools.

36:29One of the things that it's been an emergent learning from using B0 is that we use the classic business intelligence tools a lot less. We used to have this, and it kind of seems crazy in retrospect. We used to have this like fixed dashboards that over time, no one opens. So of course you have the top lane company metrics and that like you have your master dashboard that people you know You have to come back to you're working on your board at presentations and you have unauthoritated one dashboard Maybe but then all this BI tools evolved to have this huge list of things that get unmeantained and people don't look at Because in reality what people want is gerative UI People want to have a question and to produce the perfect visualization for that question just in time and And that's something that agents have already taken over from any other category of software.

37:20Meaning if you were to say, can you replicate, I don't know, name your favorite, like Microsoft Power BI? Can you replicate it with vibe coding? I would say absolutely freaking no. If I have to create a platform that supports 10 million enterprise grade customers and whatever, it's very hard to compete one in one to the entire platform. But the way that they're going to get defeated potentially is more sneaky is I don't I no longer go to that big bloated Platform because I can just in time generate exactly what I needed And so it's a different conception of software It's not that I was replicating what existed is I'm shifting the way that I build all together Yeah, it's not that somebody's going to build a new company competing directly with that It's that each of those customers will just make their own low thing and that's already happening And that's, and again, the rigor of that is even arguably higher.

38:15The quality of the visualizations, the component system that it fetches for rendering the data, like all of that looks better is faster. They can change it if they want to. Correct. If they want some new features, they add it same day. I had a nonding, though, so I presented yesterday. So you give you an idea of how V0 is expanding. So a lot of it is PLG, just like a Priscilla. You start using V0, et cetera. But this CTO at a company basically started vibe coding in his own personal account when he was talking to a customer. This is a CTO, not a PM, etc. A person that would have never written a UI, a front -end code in their life.

38:51And so what happened is their customer was saying, you know, if you don't give me this feature, we're basically going to turn over time. Classic conversation that you get with your customers. What he did is during the conversation, he vibe coded, okay, let me understand the exact what you want. So he vibed coded a version of that feature. The guy in that same conversation, 30 -minute conversation said, that's exactly what I want. So this is the other emergent use case is you basically built an end -to -end version of what the customer wanted plugged into your data source. And now it can be, if necessary, it can be merged into the mainline platform.

39:26So with the guy told me, and this is what he had me present to be zero to the rest of their entire fields, the field city organization is, I want everyone to build this way. I want our data to be exposed into this vibe coding platform. So we're not left behind. And the announcement was this feature is going live in Q4. But now this is important, right? He did vibe coding in 30 minutes, but to be merged into the mainline monster is not so easy. You don't just vibe code, you know, the production system and whatever. And this is why I was arguing that to merge things into monsters, monster code basis, things with like millions of customers, et cetera, you need a slightly different tools, slightly different techniques.

40:09And I think that's why the world will continue to partition further into like this highly specialized tools for each kind of problem. Yeah. Agents basically. What do you think a kid who wants to create software in the future should be doing right now? Because in the past, it was more clear, like, learn to program. And now let's say you're 16 or 13 or 10 and you're starting to want to think about these kinds of products. What would you spend your time on now? The best advice I've ever gotten on how to improve my software engineering was have a product idea in mind. If I tell you go and master programming like it's topology and math, it's weird.

40:52Like it's where do you focus your efforts on? What language do you learn? It's like everything is a problem and nothing is a problem. And so what I would say is if you start with something like Vizero, you're starting to build that muscle of what do I really want? What do I want to build? What am I visualizing in my head? And I do know that this is kind of a somewhat controversial topic because there's a whole line of thinking and psychology that some people can visualize and some people have you heard about? the visualization power of people is like different kinds of eyes in Naruto like the amount that you can picture in your head There is by person.

41:29Yeah, but I do think that we have to exercise that muscle It very well might be that what we call taste is Actually that ability to refine That idea that you loosely having your head And refine it and refine it and visualize that next state is like, instead of next token prediction, it's like next refinement prediction they are doing in your head of like, this is what it needs to look like. That's interesting. For people to absorb it positively. That was something I was gonna ask you about, was because, you know, taste became a buzzword, and you know, I think it can, it kind of meaning, but it can also be kind of meaningless, but it feels like there's something there, and that's actually a pretty good, it's like the best attempt at a working definition, I've heard, that it's your ability to sort of like, visualize a future, and you can actually see how that would explain some people's ability to see a trend early or to see a talented person when they meet one or those kinds of things.

42:22I also think it's people focusing on that end of the rainbow that we talked about. How much are you getting distracted by the side quest that went into building the thing? Versus, okay, what is it going to do when it lands? What does it look like? I think this is why we created for sale is that we thought the world has to change its focus a little bit. The cloud has been all about that low level. It's like material science. And yeah, materials are extremely important. I think Verselkin did a good job at curating some of those for you so that you can actually put your focus on the sky. Like what is that next thing that you're going to give the world?

42:59And this by the way applies to everything. It applies to how you talk about your thing, the words on the screen, the way what you attach to your tweet when you get that thing out, how would the block pose that that announces your product looks like. And I do want to build a world where people are looking at that. And it was really interesting, by the way. So a couple of weekends ago, you said 13 -year -old, I said to my six -year -old, he walked into my office and he said, what do you do? Like what are you doing? And I said, because at that very time, I was vibrating. I was like, well, I'm creating software.

43:33I'm creating something. And then we got into this conversation was like, could he create a game? And he said, well, what game idea do you have? and he said, a soccer game. And so we built a soccer game. I'm not sure yet next because it's dope, but the hardest thing for in that process of the back and forth with him was he had the idea of the soccer game. That was legitimate of his own idea. It was really hard to get him to ask me what the next thing with the refinement of his idea would be. And that didn't come naturally. So in the end, what we ended up building is a game where you dribble the ball and we count and we make it harder as it goes, and it looks really pretty.

44:11The pretty part probably came for me as I made something. My lesson there was that, again, you have to build this muscle of understanding there's an audience out there. There's something that technology is capable of, and there's an interest. He's interested in focusing on soccer. How do you bring all those things together into prompts, into asking the machine what you want to see in the world? I almost think this is the new because we couldn't go provocatively have solved cogeneration. Because keep in mind, you can go and be zero. And you can also ask it to build this data visualization that prevented the turn of a customer for a security company.

44:49And so because the platforms can now do all of these things, it boils down to ideas. It boils down to capital allocation. Tokens have a cost. So if anything is possible, made the best idea when, and it'll get enough tokens behind it that we can keep developing it, right? And so I think that's going to be the skill of the future. I hope my kids learn it. I hope my kids are able to do that idea translation really quickly in that mapping. Does someone still need to understand the lower levels of the code underneath it all? You know, we didn't get into that at all and we could build a pretty banger game.

45:25We could keep going, going, going, and I don't think we would ever look again as the world becomes more agentic. But like 50 years from now, you know, when all the people who know the deeper levels of code today are no longer in the game, could we have a world where you have a billion people who only know how to vibe code, but nobody knows the stuff underneath? Well, I mean, we're kind of in that world already, right? Like a lot of people have it no clue how their garbage collector of their programming language works. I mean, a lot of people are pouring effort into interpretability of LLM because we do not know how they arrive to the answers they do.

45:59We will need frameworks. We will need guardrails. We would need ways to interpret and define the semantics. I do think it always boils down not to how the instructions in the processor get written out and executed. It boils down to that relationship between investment. How much are you willing to pay for a certain level of performance, for example, and outcomes. Like, what do you want out of this system? It's just a crazy thought that there's just layers of abstraction and in the future, people just won't need to know the like ancient layers, but they'll be driving it all, but nobody needs to know it.

46:42The world may just be driven by economics, you know, energy allocation. You know, this, there might be a world in which we've perfectly solved this transmutation of energy source to intelligence because if this is scaling loss of test time compute, et cetera, continue, then we pour more effort into the task and we get the outcome that we wanted. Now, the question will be not everyone will have the same token budget as everybody else. So it really boils down to like who crafts the most compelling vision of the future. And the storytelling, by the way, this is a human, this is where her might have just nailed it.

47:16The storytelling is how you persuade the world that your idea is the one that is worth allocating tokens into. Maybe there's a world where your seat round just gets dumped 100 % into tokens. And all you're doing is going around the world and saying, I have this vision of the future. Here's that quick vibe code that I did in VC. But if you really wanted to see it at like planet scale, we have to pour a lot more tokens into this thing. And that's how you get to like the one person billion companies and so on. At the beginning of the conversation, you used a term I really like chasing a dragon. and I think there's like a, there's an interesting debate among founders where some founders believe that you should just have a super clear vision and will it into existence like creating a movie.

47:57There are some founders who are much more iterative and talk to customers and see what it is and there's pivots and you get there that way. What I observe about you is that you talk a ton to your users. You seem extremely flexible of mind, but then you also use this term chasing and drag. Yeah. And so it seems like you've got both of those sometimes. It's one of the hardest things to do. Is that how you think about? So even now, as you think about a new product or evolving, is it this combination of Chase or Dragon and then listen to get your way there? This is the magic of how you build a PLG and enterprise business.

48:27The enterprise way of building product has to be extreme that conversation that I just talked about is like, what do you need? What is your concrete pain point with this technology? And like, let's build it together and let's evolve it. But it has to be mixed with the vision of the future. Because otherwise, you're not going to see the next platform shift. You're not going to see the next with the next generation of coders and builders are excited about. So you have to have that first principle thinking that I sometimes call it internally work back or some science fiction with a healthy dose of like, well, we're also supporting some of the largest dot comes on the planet and we have to build things that are very concrete problems today in this in the current world today, right?

49:07That is the magic of that's something that can bring success to a lot of people. Now, I'll make the countercase of that. Agents can do their own research. So, as V0 becomes more agent, one of the things that it can do is search the web. So, it used to be that humans would say, okay, my boss is asking me to create this really cool animation that does this and that. And so, you start, sometimes you know a lot of things, and that's why we hire experts. But you also go on, go off and do research. And so, now think about about how agents are just LLM calls in a loop. So an agent is just something that's calling JGPD repeatedly, quote unquote.

49:47Now think about deep research. Definitely to me, one of the killer apps of AI in recent times, the AI can go off and search 300 different websites and greet them for you and then they just them. That'll be wielded by the programming agent. And so in that world, the programming agent can do the user research. And so if you said, okay, I want to build a soccer game. Okay, go off and do research about what are users saying in your community forms? What are people saying on X? I can have the PM agent essentially as part of this multi -agent architecture. And by the way, a lot of what I do is talk to users.

50:29So I talk to you since I'm okay, like search for my keyword. And you know, okay, there's this 10 complaints. Let's stack right them. There's also research with like sales versus saying about like pipeline and opportunities, etc. So I do think the world will become more and more agentic, but I don't believe there's going to be one agent through the mall. This is the promise of what I call the next internet, the transition from HTTP to MCP. If MCP allows us to deploy agents that are highly specialized, then the world becomes a collaboration between agents as opposed to one agent to roll them all.

51:02And that is true to my taste for what the web and the internet should be like. I always love the web because I rejected the idea there's going to be a platform keeper that decides what gets on their platform and what gets off their platform and controls everything. This is the example of like people literally were just regurgitating what happened when Elon bought X and then Apple wanted to take X off the app store. And so we cannot allow that. We can not allow a world where people can arbitrarily take you off the internet, right? And so I want a world where MCB wins because that will mean that there's all kinds of Asian choices.

51:41There's all the companies can rethink themselves as instead of just having a front end of pixels, I have a front end of tools and a front end to my data. And MCB is emerging as the new front end instead of for humans for agents. It's particularly when I was running lattice, but just in general now, one of the things I most look up to in companies is extreme coherence when the product and the customers and the culture and the employees all sort of make sense together. Yeah, Apple is always like an example to me where I'm just like, it's so different, it's secretive, it's got all these different things about it, but it all makes sense together.

52:21It seems to me like you with an open source background with the sort of way you're thinking about the future, being sort of developer focused, it seems like there would be a culture and a type of person and the way you run the company that must match that. Does that just emerge naturally or is there a way, like how do you think about making that all? It emerges naturally, but you have to pay attention because sometimes you just take it for granted and encourage everyone and runs a business to think about this. I call it reverse engineering your success. Do you know that you can be successful and not fully understand why?

52:53I think people don't talk about this enough. All the time. I think many of the most successful people are like that. And like, oh, it's because they did A, B, and C. You might have succeeded in spite of A, B, and C in some cases. Yeah. And so reverse engineering your success is actually something I devote a lot. It's like, there is a quote about like, it's harder to break the past and break the future. Break the past means to actually understand, actually came from one of the creators of quantum physics. It's really good. Reverse in the past means that you understood the sequence of tokens or like, reasoning traces that lead you to where you are and you leave out all the noise.

53:27And I think for us, that actually the culture that we built of openness and transparency, I tweeted the other day that I love working behind the scenes to help our engineers present their own work. Meaning I helped the, hey, like I learned this things from X or like if you say this, maybe you're just being two of our bows and like it would look better if you give this example and whatever so that I coached them and how I think about presenting my work. But I want them to own that story telling. I want them to learn the, oh, this is how I talk to customers. This is how I engage with the community.

54:02This is how I receive feedback. I suppose to the traditional thing, which is like your sheltered and shielded by layers and layers and layers of offuscation. And you don't get as an engineer the direct signal. But now to your question is, I mean, this is amazing. At least to me, was that something natural, it was emergent, but now it had to get reified into our culture. We need to say that's who we are and that's who we believe in and that's behind our success. But it didn't, that understanding of, oh, there's all these little things that made you successful because some of them are our second order effects.

54:36Like you said, what I always loved was open source. Well, it turns out that if you love open source, it leads to this open contribution culture. It leads to a higher level of transparency. I got feedback from one of our colleagues that comparing, there's this idea of compare slack work spaces. How was the slack that you joined from the slack of the company you just left? It's a very important exercise for you. And he was saying, well, the slack adversaries is pure information. There's no direct message thread group, what it's just so much information. People learned how to digest what they were working on, and in a way almost feels like an internal Twitter.

55:19And of course companies need a separate healthy separation between internal and external. And adversely because we're responsive for so many critical workloads, privacy and compliance are extremely top of mind for us. But there is a vibe of like it's like an internal Twitter in the sense of like insight, insight, summary of something that I just learned by working with a customer, screenshot. And that is an immersion culture. The then you have to say that's working for us. That's who we are. Let's keep doing it so that when people join, it's not by accident. That's how we work. One of the things that strikes me about you is not only are you running a big company, you're also deep in the technology, which is amazing to be able to both run the org and know all the technology.

56:00I thought I have a lot of kids and they take a lot of time. You really have a lot of kids and you're a runner. I'm not trying to ask like, what's your secret? But like, how do you make it all work? Like, is there anything that you've picked up over the years through parenthood, through building a company as time pressure has gotten heavy on you? Is there anything that you've picked up or adapted that you think is broadly useful? Yeah, I think there's actually a tweet by your brother Sam that I always loved, which was, you know, it doesn't matter what ladder of success you've achieved, working hours is still hard for everybody day and they I do not want to go to the gym Confronting that thing that I do not want to do every single day.

56:39This is why I don't care about what type of exercise What's hot crossfit I think that's something that's been different about me is like I've never followed any fitness trend Hmm. I'm so anti fitness trend. I have done things that were Folding off the public area cliff. I boxed for many years I would go every day to the gym from 6 a .m. to 7 30 a .m. to a boxing gym in the doc patch that like the the orn would tell me like I don't know why like classic worst in boxing is not as exciting anymore to people because I think it's because MMA MMA has been growing and what I love classical boxing. And same with I love calisthenics.

57:17And so I do things that are like off pattern, but it doesn't matter what you do because what you're doing is that confrontation of the thing that you didn't want to do that It hardens your mind, stabilizes your mental health, teaches discipline in my kids. My kids love walking into my office. I'm in the Peloton and they're like, holy shit, why are you doing this? They ask me why a lot? Like why are you doing this? And they explain that they're not going to get it for a long time, but they need to learn. And I think everyone needs to learn that like there's something about our own individual personal development that has to do with that confrontation of things that are hard.

57:49And that's what was giving the caveat to like make sure that whatever relationship you how with that coding agent is one that challenges you and you're learning and you're better for it at the end, right? It's expanding, it gives you more capabilities. You're taking something away from it. You're just becoming the Wally guy. So my recommendation is like, I've void the Wally future, like you're just like a blob floating in the sky and work hard. And so there's no more secret of that. The last question I wanted to ask you back to the taste question and sort of, you described it as this ability to sort of visualize something that hasn't come true yet and how it might iterate and sort of see the path there.

58:28Is that something that can be learned or improved upon and if so, how do you do it? You know, it links to this idea. I also do a lot of fitness for the meditation benefits. Like, I remember someone, I don't know who told me this, but there's like, look, there's passive meditation, there's active meditation. Passive is, you're at the bottom of the tree and you're like, you say you're dharma's and whatever and you go into the nothingness. I see my really hard work at this morning for 30 minutes of high -density interval training as I'm meditation of sorts. Meditation confers a particular attribute which is presence.

59:00Presence gives you clarity of mind and allows you to capture nuances, reactions, little things about the world. You're just more tuned in. And I do think that one way that you can improve your taste and your product building skills is being more attuned to the actual reaction from people. Because you might say, like, here's my thing, and people say, awesome. It's like, is that an awesome of like true joy? Can you be present in a way that reads the world more precisely? Very hard to have high taste if your brain's off thinking about the next email or the next meeting you gotta go to or whatever.

59:35All of those things, focus, presence, self honesty. And I think this also comes from that place of confidence and that meditative state of like, can you actually confront the negative reaction or are you running away from it? Because the best thing you could do for your product is to read all of the negative feedback about it. Can you do it? It's almost like running on a treadmill and be like, oh shit, my boxing trainer would do this cruel thing. So this is in the dog patch for those I don't know, not too far away, maybe like a couple of miles away from the, or a mile away from the giant stadium, the baseball stadium.

1:00:10and we would work out for an hour and 29 minutes. And then on the last minute, he would say, lap to the giants of stadium and back. And I was like, you just pushed us to a world of pain that is unbelievable. And then you threw another crazy thing on top. And so that was the process of like, there's just always more than you can do. And I do think that there is a level of tolerance of pain that we can always work on and get greater, greater heights. and you can link this product building that you have to face and seek that negative feedback from the world. In fact, a lot of people want to help you.

1:00:45This is actually a nice thing about it. Like so many people want to help you and want you to build the right thing. And you call this ad when we talk about enterprises. People really want, they're invested in your success. Yeah. Just don't get in the way of your own success. Yeah, it's a great place to end it. Gamer, thanks a ton for your time today. This was great. Thank you.