Uncapped #30 | Alex Pall from The Chainsmokers

27:15But I think like the unique part, I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like, do you like Calvin Harris? You know, and it was like, yeah, Calvin Harris was like, cool. What else? What else do we have in common? But then quickly, it was like our love for dance music, our background tastes amusing, things we listen to, you know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we had throughout our youth that we didn't know each other. And then like, we kind of like, we're like, all right, let's do this. But also like when we are successful in building the Chainsmokers, like, let's only use that as like the stepping stone to like building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts.

27:46We had no idea what those things were, but we were like from the get go, we were both like, it's not just going to stop here. And I think for us, you know, you know, Drew used to sell Timberlands that he bought locally in China. You guys are always entrepreneurs, always doing stuff and trying to, you know, find ways to be creative and clever in business. And I think, you know, music is such a like certain part of your brain and personality that like, I do think part of us was like yearning also for something that was like a little bit more tangible and analytical. And I don't want to say music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it.

28:21You know, for us, we had started tequila company. We had a TV and production company and venture was kind of the last most recent thing bashing for us. and honestly, I didn't know what it was, you know, like I really did not know anything about venture. Like I remember a business manager was like, I got pinged by some company that wants you to, you know, potentially invest and take some equity. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, what does all that mean? You know, like, I mean, I understand what equity means, but like, what is, you know, venture capital, like passive income. And he was just like, listen, you know, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years.

28:55Like, this is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing in products or platforms or things that, you know, you think are cool, let's try it, you know? And like, most of the time you're gonna fail, but like, maybe you get lucky and work out. And, you know, we began that journey and very quickly, it was like a part of our brain lighting up that like, I felt like had been not dormant, but like underserved. And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these like super ambitious goals and plans for the future.

29:26And then, you know, it kind of just like avalanche of things came from that. Yeah. And then I'm sure it all like plays together. And, you know, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where, you know, business makes your music better or music can make your business better. Definitely. I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel like tensions on certain days just because there's only so many hours in the day. Yeah. An example I've thought about that I'm actually really curious to hear how you think about. Last year, I got into like hi-fi audio. It's just like I've always loved music. I played music a lot as a kid growing up.

29:55and I love listening to music and I started listening to albums I find the experience of listening to a whole album like super different than just listening to a song yeah and I feel like the difference is I'm listening to like an artist rather than like you know a song totally and so it's just like who's this person and then I get into like you know their albums over time and like how they you know grow and evolve and you see what they pour into it you know I tried about this a bit before but like one of my favorites is Bon Iver yeah and like you know had like there's i can't say enough good things i'm gonna you know mess it up but like there was like the early days with like for emma forever ago where it's just like it's all so raw and young and he's talking about a breakup and he's you know i think his band fell apart he's like in the woods with like a sad sounding guitar but it's amazing and then he gets into like his core stuff a few years later like with his like self-named album yeah and it's totally different and there's band around him now then it got really experimental like he had like um imi before that there was 22 a million and those songs I'm just like what fucking instrument is that?

30:56I don't recognize that sound. It's crazy. Justin Vernon is like the goat of goat. I think we talk about this with any artist out there. If Bon Iver is not in their top five I would be thoroughly surprised by that. He's just so real. He's like, I don't know cars, but it's people that are like, you know, there's cars and then there's car lovers' favorite cars that are universally like, that's the car. You know, he's like that for musicians And I think, you know, to your point about albums, which is something, you know, we talk a lot about today because there's just so many. It's changed so dramatically the format by which we listen to music.

31:30Yeah. Fighting for people's attention. But I do think that like you would be hard pressed to find an artist in the history of music that like would stand the test of time that hasn't delivered like an incredible album. I think it's like an absolutely essential part if you will ever be mentioned among the greats. And those albums, they're just like so much has to go into an album. Totally. And I think like, I know Billie Eilish talks about it a lot. She's just like, I try not to pick singles on my albums. Like the context is so important. Like she's like, I generally like, I'm kind of put off by when an artist is like this song is my single.

32:06And, you know, like, and I think like Jack Enfield kind of said it best actually where he's like, singles are like without an album or like hallways that lead to nowhere, you know? And singles can be a path to a story, which is fine. But you need their story. You need the story. You need the album. And I know that's like harder than ever in today's culture of social media and fighting for attention. It must take so much focus. I must it's not something that you could do in a day. It's not something you could even probably do in a week or no, you have to like it's so tortured for a year. I bet literally I mean, I think we've, you know, made some great albums in the past and every album was like dramatically different in terms of our approach.

32:40Probably the thing that like felt closest to what like the artist that I really admire and respected it was because you kind of do have to like unplug from the world. You're like, I'm going off into this mental space and physically, and I'll be back when I have something that I'm excited about, you know, and I don't even know what that is yet. I need to figure out what that story is, what that visual line is, what, you know, what I care about right now. What does it feel and sound like? You know, I'm a huge Tame Impala fan. He does a really great job of this. But, you know, for us, like during COVID, we rented a house.

33:13It was actually right before COVID in Hawaii. Shout out to Brian Chesky. We were friends of his. we'd like met him through some events and stuff. And he was like, if you ever want to, you know, one of the houses to write an album, like, let me know. And we were like, we'll take one in Hawaii. And we went there for like four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day. And it was like, this is what, you know, we weren't taking meetings. We weren't getting interrupted by people. Yeah. We were like locked in on this sound. Granted, it still took like two years to really finish that album.

33:43But like, when we came back, we were like, this is the, you know what I mean? like we had, we were, you know, like the road had been paved and we just needed to continue down. Did the mushrooms help? Yes and no. I mean, I think it can lead you, it's like similar where we're talking about alcohol. It's like, there's like the perfect balance. Like it got out of our own way. It's like this ego killer thing. It like, I want to say it flattened, like, but you know, when we were all like, it's weird. If you do mushrooms with like a group of people, for some reason, like you all hit at the same time.

34:10And it's, I don't know if anyone's listening can agree with that, but like you could sit around with friends, you all take mushrooms, you're all different sizes, you're all different, you know, biologies, but like category, like I guarantee you, you will all be like at the same time, be like, whoa, you know? And I think that like got us and everyone that was there on this similar page where we were really connected and in tune with the things we wanted to say and write and the feeling we got from everything. But at the same time, you can like over index and then you can get, you know, start writing about really weird stuff.

34:38And I think, again, it's everything in moderation is important. But at that time, it was like that was the feeling we want, you know, have we we didn't want to come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences you know like our sick boy album like was filled with like kind of like resentment towards like the press and media and and how people perceived us it was like this weird disassociate associating feeling but it was weird because over that was like an album that came together song by song in a different way and like literally like eight songs in the album we were like happy again you know what I mean and And so like this album takes like this dramatically different tone.

35:15Yeah. And you're just like. But I think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that. A hundred percent. But we're just like, what a weird. Yeah. You know, like. It is weird when you're listening and you're like, oh, something happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, well, you know. And so, I mean, it's definitely like a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing. But, you know, it wasn't like a moment. Like. How do you balance like wanting to give people what they love? And obviously, like, I'm sure a huge part of what drives you is like getting to make millions of people happy.

35:41Totally. Yeah. How do you balance that? And you know, the type of music they love. Yeah. With I'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things. Yeah. And like, I'm sure there's some tension there. It's such an important question to ask because I think that there's so many who start this. First, you find a sound that's unique to you and people rally around it and are excited about it. You make this song and it becomes not what you're synonymous for, but Tame Impala has a sound. Drake has a sound. Everyone has something that is identifiable where you're like, that's the vibe.

36:16And then you start people being like, oh, it's just that again. Or like, let's see you make something else and try something else. naturally like the bad that stuff comments like that for some reason cut through and we can make anything like we generally are like good producers and writers make all kinds of music and then so then you find yourself in the studio being like i'm not gonna show you and in some cases it works like jude's ex-girlfriend that was like you can't make trap songs you know i mean now yeah but he found a way to fit in the context of our world which i think makes sense and so i think it's so important to like stay true to who you are it doesn't mean don't experiment doesn't mean broaden your horizons and seek uh you know and explore different opportunities but i think it really really important to like stay and just be authentic.

36:54I think exactly. And like, if you've changed as a person, I feel like the music should change almost. Absolutely. And it doesn't mean it's like, I use this one synth. So I use this one synth in every, every song. It's just like, Hey, like what's wrong with like, like, you know, people coming to us for this thing, like Kygo, this is why he does so goddamn well. It's because people come to him for this sound and experience and it's fucking awesome. And I think he, you know, he really delivers that experience. I think the other, you know, side of the equation is kind of just this idea of like, Like I'm a big Oasis fan and I love like the Liam and Noel Callagher clips that you're getting from like the past.

37:25And he has this like epic clip that everyone should go see where he's just like, he's like, your fans are idiots. He's like, they don't know what they want. He's like, that's what I'm supposed to deliver to them. Like I tell my fans what they want. They don't tell me, you know, what they want. You know, obviously he does it in his Oasis way, which is like awesome and funny and reverent. But like, I also totally agree with him. And I think, you know, you have to balance that. You know, we had a song we just put out called Smooth that I love. and all of our fans, like while we were promoting other songs, were like, Smooth, release Smooth.

37:53We want Smooth. And like, we made Smooth. We're very excited about Smooth. It is very authentically us. I don't think it's like a departure, but like, I think we were also like thinking like, oh, this is going to be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it. But like, I don't, it's not working out that way. And so, whereas like we released a song last summer called Addicted that none of our fans were stoked about, but ended up being, you know, one of our biggest songs in the last few years and like appealed to a much broader audience. Can you, so you're saying it's not that predictable what's going to hit?

38:19I think it's just like, you just got to do what you trust your gut, kind of what we were saying earlier. Like, you know, I don't think releasing Smooth was a mistake. I love that song, you know? And I don't think releasing Addicted, which none of our fans wanted, was a mistake. But I do think it's harder to play Addicted in our shows because it doesn't fit in naturally with like the energy we've created, whereas Smooth is just 100 % Chainsmokers. So I think you kind of have to like think about those things long term. And I think like Selfie's a great example of this. Like we made that song as a joke, put it on the internet just for fun, It took us like 30 minutes to do it.

38:50And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives. You know, now people expect us to perform it, talk about it. You know, it's part of our history. You know, we didn't think about that so much when we just put it online and the internet, which is forever. And so it's, you know, those things have consequences. But I think as the artist, it's your job to like absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way. Like, I think like what we should have taken away from the smooth thing is that people like love when Drew's singing. They love the, you know, intimate storytelling of our music.

39:18And they like, you know, the hands up progressive house production. And it's but it doesn't mean necessarily mean that like we should be like smooth is the next song because they want it, you know, does good art require external inspiration? Like, can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you, whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from and, you know, were, you know, really moved by what they did? Yeah. Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside?

39:50I'm going to go with inspiration. I like and I'm not saying that like going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and like music being sent down and you kind of have to. But I think it's when it's sent down, you have to be in a place mentally and creatively to like receive that, you know, message and inspiration. And usually those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions.

40:15It's literally like, forget music. What's going on? You know, like what is how is your home right now? Are you having your relationship? Are there anything that surprised you? Like some of your family? What's it like being 35 or 40 in my case? Through those conversations, you're kind of led to places or thinking about things that, you know, impacted you. And I think like acting is a great example of this. Like you're literally like being hired to play the role of someone, not you, you know? And so like you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to like try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film.

40:47And I can't remember, I think it was like a PBS episode where someone was like great acting, like to be a great actor, like go do everything else except act. Like go to as many art shows as possible, see as many, as much theater as possible, listen to as much music as possible, read as many books as possible. And like then you will have this like incredible library of context where you can pull from and hopefully create, you know, your own thing. And I think, you know, it's like kind of like the conversation about like large language models being like copyrightable outputs or not. You know, I don't think they really should be, to be honest with you.

41:19Have you played around with AI music at all yet? Yeah, absolutely. What do you think? It's incredible and scary. You think it will matter? Like it will matter. Do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI-generated music? I think we already are. You don't even know it. I think like... Like in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI help or there'll be parts that AI... Maybe eventually. I mean, I think for us, it's just like shocking, you know, kind of again, like what I like about AI tools right now for us is it just like keeps us in the zone, which is all we want to do. It's like instead of getting caught up being like, fuck, we need to make drums now, which is the next part of this creative process for us.

41:54And it's going to take me like an hour and a half. it's like never mind i can prompt this thing to pump out this might not be the final drums we're going to use but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity yeah i think you know we've gotten demos sent to us where it's like 15 songs that drew's singing on and you're like no no no actually drew sounds pretty good on that and i think that's a really cool application of it um you know i think that if you were in a nightclub and i was playing an ai generated song but it was good let's just say was like a good song i don't think anyone know yeah you know what i mean like genuinely like i think like if you can kind of do the like control placebo effect of like ai music versus human maybe it's pretty good yeah like would people really be able to like determine which was which one isn't that's do i think it's important like kind of like the similar uh you know conversation about albums like i do think context matters like i think like you know albums provide context the same way that like a personality provides context.

42:50That's how I feel. I mean, it's harder. I think a big part of what makes me enjoy music is knowing something about the artist and why the song, you know, the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. Like, I also love just listening to something on the radio. Yeah. Or like, you know, you're out doing stuff like that's awesome, too. Yeah. But like the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps. Absolutely. And I think like it's interesting because we're kind of like fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. Like I think the way people are discovering music, which, you know, TikTok is a great tool for and platform for is like they just hear something that sounds catchy and they're like, I'm going to make a video of this.

43:24Only recently did like Spotify created integration where you can like click on the song that takes you to Spotify. So you can even see what this person looks like, you know, or anything. And I think like that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for like younger listeners now where they're not taking that a show. They're just like, oh, this is a cool song. I'm going to, you know, not even everything that goes viral on TikTok translates to streaming on the platform either. But I think, you know, those were some of my, you know, that's why like music videos were so cool back in the day, because it was like, there they are, you know, now everyone's so available, everything's out there.

43:56You know, we're all like, do we care? Do you even care? I just like the song, whatever, you know what I mean? But like, I think like the artists that have longevity force people to like, ask those questions and kind of like seek them out a little further. Because like, you know, seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being, it like adds so much depth. to his music. Bruno Mars, same thing. You're like, this guy's great dancer. You know, you wouldn't know that if you didn't see him out. He also has more, he has more number one songs. Like his average of number one songs is like 700 % or something.

44:27Like 70 % of the time, he has a number one song, which is like, he's only released like 75 songs or something, 80 songs, which is like unbelievable statistics. One of the things that's so cool and you know, I don't, you know, I'm in San Francisco in tech and so I don't get to think about this as much, but like outlier talent is it's really a cool thing. Yeah. That there are some people that are just that good at singing, that good at music, that good at, you know, entertainment. Like it's it's cool. Yeah, it's really cool. And also it's like really weird when you see someone working on having that talent, working on the wrong thing or like it's like so talented that they can't even like channel it correctly.

45:00Like I had terrible ADHD growing up and I was like a super average student until like 10th grade. And then I figured out like making lists, organize my brain. And like it was just a function of like, Like I can do everything. I just like wouldn't spend enough time, you know, like and I love the experience of crossing things off more than I like like hated having to focus. And it just made me like a war machine of like getting shit done. And I think like that's when you find someone that's like doing the thing they're supposed to do at the right time. It's like one of the greatest. I think 30 years ago, 30 years ago, we like misunderstood ADHD as this like ailment.

45:36And it like turned out it's the superpower that just like needs like Cyclops. 100 percent. I read a really interesting article the other day about like autism and how like a lot of like our favorite apps today used by most society were created by people that like have some level of autism or ass burgers or something. And that like there are by function like tools that like kind of like like aid someone that's like natural experience in public is like uncomfortable. Yeah. So like Facebook or Instagram or all these things like are ways to kind of like, like create community, but in like settings that are like more consumable and comfortable.

46:12And I was like, that's really interesting thought that like we've like, you know, all the most powerful platforms were created by people that like wanted to create a platform that was like lean more. People think of ADHD as like inability to focus. And that's not what it is. It's disordered focus. Totally. So it's just also, it comes with mega focus. Yeah. Yeah. If I am correctly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, like, again, it's just like figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's like one of the biggest, I think, struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has something they're inherently good at or have, you know, overcome some experience.

46:42I know, like, I think it was like Mike Moritz is like famous for asking for like, like, what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder, you know, drive that like will just help you succeed against everyone else. I think everyone has those things. It's just like, it's really hard to, it is hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out like where to direct that energy, even if you do. I think like every day it's what motivates me because I'm like, I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff. So it's kind of like, let's keep going, you know?

47:10I was thinking it's where like self-awareness matters so much and it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes. And I think a lot of people want to be something that they're not or they want to do something that's not natural for them. And so maybe this is like a good segue into like your investing work. Yeah. Where like you've also now built a venture firm and you're working really hard, very successfully at that. Yeah. And it's a really different job than your than your music. And you and I were chatting before about like playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there.

47:42So maybe just to like start on the investing side, like how do you think about where you want to be playing and where you should like focus mantis it's kind of an interesting approach in terms of that like we are not consumer investors like i fact leaned into like spaces that like we probably like have the least amount of business being invested in and i've listened to like that every a lot of your episodes and like every time i've finished listening to one i'm like what am i even doing you know what i mean like if this this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the way we've set up our firm but like wow you know like you mean that you've set up in order to like be able to participate with everybody.

48:15Yeah, like we want to be collaborative. Like I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an ally versus foe. I also think that's like, was a big part of our success in music was collaboration. So I think it's like a natural extension into venture. And like over time, we'll absorb these best practices and hopefully become the great investors that I listen to on the show every week. But I think for us, we wanted to lean into spaces, like A, out of curiosity. Like I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than it was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with health tech and deep and frontier technologies.

48:49I just thought like, you know, if you're gonna, if it's already such a gamble, at least some gamble things that you care about I think are really interesting. I also thought that I was like, hey, this is like, like there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies. Like there's very few investing in software. That is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. Like it's probably a reason why they're not doing that because it's really technical, really challenging. And also like what business do you have? Like a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just, you know, an outcome of the value we're able to add.

49:18So like the second that we invest in a company and a founder is like, they just didn't know shit. They didn't do shit. Like that was just a real waste of cap space for me. Like we're dead in the water. So we definitely like took a risk doing this. But I think, you know, Drew and I are hustlers and we're just like, we're going to figure it out. Like we know, I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. and also like modern day times are changing so fast. Like the things like, you know, when the B2B creators now, or B2B, you know, enterprise software founders are like fucking creators on X now.

49:52Like they're making videos like Logan Paul does. And that's awesome. And so I knew that there was gonna be things that we could offer that would be helpful. And we wanted to make sure that it was like commiserate with like what we were asking for. You know, it's like, don't ask for 15 % if you don't feel like you're gonna add 15 % values to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just like, the formation. And I say this a lot, but like, you know, I want to, you know, we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career with all sorts of incredible people that are all like leaders of these different areas.

50:22And to us, it was like, well, why not go raise capital from them? You know, turn them into allies of the fund where we're using them for advice. We're like potentially leveraging the success of their platforms to drive value back in the end into the companies we're investing in. And they're like, we'll use them as our initial wedge so that when someone's like, why are you investing? Why should I let you invest in this company? It's like, because I know you want to talk to this guy and this guy is one of our good friends and I can make that, you know, happen for you. But once we're in the door, we'll like provide, you know, all sorts of value.

50:49And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy, it's just like, we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team. You know, like I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like I have much, I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process. What you mean by that is you just want to be in great companies, even if it's not like you led the round or something? Yes, that. But I think like the implications of like being alongside a founder that is building a great company, you get to see what greatness looks like.

51:19You know, you get to understand what are they doing that's like I can take and hopefully replicate across other investments. And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like if you hang out with shitty people, you're going to be a shitty person probably. You know what I mean? You know, like if you got to play on the, you know, what was it like 2002 Lakers, or 2001 Lakers, like with Kobe Bryant, like you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me as like a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit too.

51:49Like obviously the goal is to be a part of great companies. So we generate big returns. But I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like so that we can improve. Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way? Or are you just trying to learn from them in the background? In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of network or one sort of special access point in the other? Or are you like, actually, that's like polluting the sanctity of each. And I'm going to learn from both. But there are two different businesses.

52:20Yeah. Let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business side of his empire, which was like Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life and he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are like for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to, you want to, you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home.

52:47Like I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. But I think in music, similar to venture, like music is a losing game. Like most of the songs we put out do not go unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful, you know, or at least like the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that.

53:20But you do learn something very important from every song. You are building, you know, character and history and, you know, reps in the gym and pattern recognition. And I think investing is a lot like that. Like everyone I spoke to, which was like hundreds of people, was like, most of your investments are going to go to zero. And I was like, well, I'm comfortable with that. You know what I mean? But like, you have to like learn from that. You can't let it be, you know, like it can't set you back in terms of like your next deal. You have to like immediately get back to, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard.

53:51Just keep your eyes on the field. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, something that's really important. And I also think just like in general, like every time we put out a song, we have to like provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to like reinvent ourselves and tell people like why we should pay attention to us to right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B2B space or consumer side to have that same opportunity and hail the climb. And I think, you know, we can provide like a vantage point that is like very useful and helpful, I think, to founders.

54:24That's not like contrarian to what like the tier one Sequoia or, you know, whoever is offering. We just think that like, you want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has like a unique perspective and point of view that's looking at things differently, but wants the same outcome. And I think like music and our experiences in that and building our business there and our brand are like super relevant to like how we think about company building. I'd be curious to hear your reflections on like how you experience like sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing.

54:56You have real time with both. Yeah. I'd just be curious, like how similar is it? Are there like some like fundamental differences? I feel more like, I don't know why. Like, I mean, we have like plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are, you know, successful. but like it does feel like like either there's like secret groups that i don't know about where everyone's hanging out like sometimes you see a wedding and you're like damn like so they all hang out like you know yeah yeah you're like what a cool i wish i was part of that group i mean drew and i are just like we've always just kind of like we love being social but we're also just like so locked in on like you've got a lot to do yeah well we're just like like we're you know we've never counted no one lifted us up you know what i mean and we kind of have always felt like it's like it's on our shoulders to like figure this out and make the music and like if we're out gallivanting around and networking with celebrities yeah like it's just like i don't know it doesn't feel natural doesn't make music yeah it doesn't make music um you know and i think there's like value in it like going to fashion week is cool like you love fashion you love fashion like it's you know an amazing experience like i don't care about it that much you know so i think we all seek out like things and interests that align with who our personalities are but like i honestly like i feel like we align with like the founder tech pete world a lot more uh acutely because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like put hours in the gym and like the harder we throw, like work through like our, you know, solves these problems, the more we're resolved, we're going to get out what we put in.

56:18And, you know, we, I feel like we have a kind of an imposter syndrome with like the Hollywood side of things. Like, I don't feel uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think like anyone should treat me, you know, differently for the things we've done in the past. And it's like, I'm more just like, what have I done, you know, today? Yeah. Then I am like, what I've done in the past. Yeah. I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing because it's like no matter how famous somebody is, like they're still a regular person. They wake up, they like wash their face in the mirror.

56:44Yeah. Like and then they like look at me like, oh, yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot. You know, there must be some experience like that for everybody. Absolutely. I mean, I think like, you know, I'm like the most average. I mean, it's kind of a joke about us where like any two white guys can kind of be the chain smokers. And there's been plenty of people around the world and people like, oh, I know who you are. And totally. And I'm so like grateful for that. Like, I don't think I'm like an ordinary, you know, person, but I think like to that end, like you can't, I don't know. I just don't think that's like how you get, like, I don't think like elitism and things like that are like how you, if we think we're like the greatest humans in the world, like is our music going to begin to feel like that?

57:18You know what I mean? And reflect that and like the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, it's our brand has always been built on like acknowledging everyone in the room. Like some of our superpowers are like, if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think like that's how I wanted to be treated. I don't know. Maybe it's like high school trauma or something, you know, of things. But like that to me is more important than anything. And like, you know, when we were coming up, our music, like we didn't want to be like wearing big diamond chains.

57:50I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but it was like, I don't that's not what we're about. Like, I wanted to like buy drinks for everyone at the bar. And I think it can take you away from the art. I think in business, it can take you away from the good stuff there too. Like, I do just feel like when people get lost in like materiality and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can like lose themselves. Well, you see it on the founder side too. Like, you know, especially nowadays with like some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out and the press surrounding them.

58:19And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies and they're not bad people. It's like insecurities or things catching up to you at like inopportune times where You're like driving cars. You probably shouldn't be driving. Yeah. Like renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now like finally people are inviting you places and want to talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of things. You see it happen in L.A. with young artists all the time. It's like they write a big song. They move to L.A. Yeah. They're like girls that want to take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music.

58:46And then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days. And now there's a huge pressure on you. Yeah. And you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing. And I think for us, we were just like, like, we're still living the dream, even though, you know, we're not going out every night. And but we're like, this is what we wanted to do the whole time. Why are we not doing this, you know, right now? And I think, you know, balance is really important. I think like, you know, that doesn't mean to say that you should like this 996 shit is the path to success. But like, I don't blame anyone for having those things.

59:15Like we're all kind of the circumstances of like products of our environment. But it is a shame when you see it. And but I also always understand when people are going through that. Yeah. It's like somebody recently said to me that I think stuff that just like money and power, fame, like that whole sort of sphere of things. It doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent whatever natural inclinations you have. And obviously everybody has like light and dark inclinations. Someone was like saying like I always ask someone like what is more important to them, like money, power or like fame.

59:49fame and there's like a right you know what i mean like the right answer is just like money because like fame is like you're chasing something like egotistical or is like i don't know and i don't know if that's like a fair question no i think i think understanding what drives people and you know there's probably some other things in there some people just are like out of that whole game entirely but i do think you know of those three different people are very driven by different ones totally i mean you see it like i mean there's no you know more relevant place to seen this and going to somewhere like central by in the summer where it's like you have billionaires that like you know can't get into a restaurant yeah just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean they're like but then elton john pulls up who's also probably a billionaire yeah you know but he's elton fucking john you know he's getting that table and so like we're all chasing access and relevancy and i think you know in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time like everyone is struggling with something everyone it doesn't feel relevant enough everyone is like you know like even coldplay i remember i I was like, dude, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly.

1:00:48Yeah. You know, that's like 600 ,000, 700 ,000 tickets. And he's just like, but he wants kids, you know, the next generation. Chris Martin seems uncorrupted though, to me. I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower spectrum of that. Like he is really principled person and, you know, it's just an amazing guy. But I think we're all still, no matter what you tell yourself, there's like, I don't care. We tell the world one thing, but inside there's something else really driving you or keeping you up at night. And I know I feel it myself. Well, you're in an interesting spot because you've you've done a lot.

1:01:19You're still young. You've got two very good businesses going and you probably have like a busy decade ahead where it's like you could you could you could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes? Are you like you've got a particular mission in a place you want to get everything? It's important. Like Drew and I probably don't do this enough where it's like you have a conversation about like, what do we want to do this year? You know what I mean? Like, what do we hope to gain? Like, what is the next like do we are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years?

1:01:44And you're like, and it's not like surprising the answers we have, but it's like surprising that we haven't had the conversations. You know, you also have to balance your like objectives with the reality of everything. Like music is not a young man's game. Like we both want to have families. Like we definitely can't be, well, you could tour as much as we want right now with kids, but like what kind of impact does it have on the kids, on your relationships with your wife? Like these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was listening to the David Sandler podcast and he was like, I'm only, I only think 24 hours at a time.

1:02:13You know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing. Like, yeah, like I think it's that's that's a, you know, important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But like, you know, you have to like build like I don't didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. You know, I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there and understand that, like, you know, we were taking 50K allocations and fund one into great companies.

1:02:43because like we understood that's where we sat. Yeah. And it was more important to be in that logo than it was to like be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly, like where are we investing our time in singles and albums? You know, is it on the show that's the most important thing? Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like if you want to see us, you can come see a Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a trade-off. It's a thing, yeah. You know, it's a trade-off. And so, you know, I think it's just being aware of those things, having those conversations are so critical.

1:03:13I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have like, even though we're not the same person, we're more aligned than most people are. It's incredibly lucky. Yeah, and you get to like, you know, he'll say things that I'm like, oh, I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant. But it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was like 54, you know, so I'm like only, and he felt so old, like mature to me. Mine was 67. Yeah, and it's just a weird context when you like put in that perspective of like, oh my God, I'm already not far. off in this guy?

1:03:42Am I like better shape? Am I better looking more successful? Am I a bigger asshole? Like, well, I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some level. But I think you know, you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control. And just like have fun. That's something I think like Drew and I have been saying a lot lately, which is like, to me, like momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean like momentum and like our songs are streaming more or making more money this year or they like momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes.

1:04:15And it's like, I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. You know, I want to when we're discussing deals, it's like a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're like in here for this great deal. Like I can't believe we're, you know, like having these conversations with these people. And I think that to me is like what drives me, you know, it's just like every day you're kind of like, you know, a couple steps forward is like very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run and try not to get wrapped up in the like hysteria of like, damn, this song failed, you know, keeping it something where you're happy to win, not just like sad to lose.

1:04:51I feel like it's so important. 100%. I mean, I told you about a deal I'm like freaking stressing out about right now. And I'm like, already in my head, I'm like, this is probably gonna say no, you know, like our zero. And I'm like, and what is that? What would that make me feel like and what does that mean and for the future and like do i want to help this person anymore after this like you know what kind of and i'm just like no of course i'm gonna fucking help this person and of course i'm gonna be bummed out and of course i'm gonna try again the next time and you know but like also you know this guy's answering my text every time i answer he's not you know there's he could just be like no you know like and so you know you kind of i'm an optimist in that sense where it's like you know it could be a lot a lot worse it's an awesome mindset yeah alex this is great i'm gonna let you get back to your day thanks a ton for doing this with me let's go all right hell yeah they're watching us yeah it's guys just fucking zipping around trying to watch that yeah yeah we'll post in a couple yeah yeah dude i had no idea you had fans like that's crazy sorry