How to scale a challenger brand with Tony’s Chief Chocolonely Douglas Lamont (ex Innocent MD)

0:28Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Uncensored CMO. the Coke acquisition and scaling them up after Coke acquired them. He really, really knows a thing or two about great challenger brands, which is why he finds himself now as CEO of Tony's Chocolonely, taking them on the next stage of their journey. So I caught up with Douglas to find out about not only what he did on Innocent, but what he's now going to do on the Tony's brand. And if you'd like to hear more next week, I'll be talking to Sidira, their CMO, who's recently joined as well, about how Tony's are marketing their brand to the audience.

0:58There's so much in this. I know you'll love it. Here it is. Douglas Lamont. So welcome to the show. Thank you very much. It's great to be here. Well, brilliant to have you. And I probably, I think I name dropped Tony's more than any other brands on the show. That's why I listen. Exactly. Is he going to mention it again? But anyway, it's a real pleasure to be in the HQ of all places. So this is Choco Central. Presumably someone's got a job just coming up with all the names around the office for, you know. Yeah, definitely having in-house copywriters and creative is a really important part of how we keep it fresh and also move at pace.

1:34So it's, you know, having that creativity in the building is really important. It's great, isn't it? Now, Diane's getting to talk about Tony's a little bit more, but, you know, you're famous for having been CEO of Innocence for many, many years through a very rich period of expansion. How did you get the job in the first place? Long story, but I guess it starts way back. My parents were entrepreneurs. They ran a software business, believe it or not, in the 1980s. And so from a young age, I sat around a table listening to business talk, and I wanted to be in business, and I didn't know what that meant.

2:04And then I ended up at KPMG Corporate Finance, which is not a traditional place to start then to become a CEO of a brand-led company. But what I found there was actually a really entrepreneurial business that was growing really fast because it was winning lots of business off the banks at the time to do M &A. but after a while there I went I got an assignment to go down to Screwfix in Yeovil of all places and write the information memorandum and I fell in love I was there for like two weeks inside the company and I fell in love with being inside a business and I was like actually being an advisor is great but I I want to be part of a real company and as ever serendipity then followed and I got a a call from a headhunter to join FreeServe the internet again challenger brand that was disrupting you know what was then dial-up internet in 1999 it seems so so long ago with the old dial-up stuff and and joined them and at that point I started to get a wider role inside the business it wasn't just about corporate finance and corporate development and actually I met you know someone we know both well Adam Morgan as part of that where we were looking at the brand positioning and he really opened my eyes to challenger brand thinking what what the brand side of a company meant and you know I'd always been more kind of business and projects and all that kind of stuff and I sort of fell in love with the challenge brand mindset and so when I went to look for my next role it was like actually I want a fast-growing challenger entrepreneurial brand and I bumped into the founders of Innocence through a friend of a friend they said oh great come in we'll talk to you they said oh great really nice to meet you yeah you're a nice guy if we ever have a role we'll let you know.

3:44And I thought, okay, well, that's not going to go anywhere. I love the company and what it stood for. And then about two weeks later, they called me and said, that didn't really sit right with us. Why don't you come back in and we'll have a proper talk. And they made up a role for me of the dangerous title of head of new opportunities. And they said, come in, learn the business for a year, and then we'll give you a big chunk of it to run. Because obviously, as we get bigger, we want to step back. And so then I did various roles. I relaunched a product that had sugar in it called juicy water to take it away from the innocent brand and built a little team, which gave me lots of experience of running different teams, marketing teams, commercial teams, supply chain teams.

4:24And I'd never been in FMCG, so I hadn't got a clue what I was doing. And then as sort of time went by, obviously the Coke investment happened in innocent. And I stuck my hand up and said, well, I'll be the integration person and kind of lead how, you know, the relationship between the two. And obviously when the founders then decided to sell the rest of the business it then became okay douglas you know will you take it on and and and lead it in in a new era and what was it like taking over the founders i mean they're they're very famous aren't they you know the three of them and their story's very well known and they would have presumably run it in their own kind of way and now with the coke investment you're now ceo what was that challenge like taking over three such famous founders taking over from three highly successful high profile um vivacious um founders when i'm a bit of an introvert was was definitely quite daunting i think what was really helpful is that there were three of them and and they all had different characters and so when i knew when i took over it wasn't like oh i've got to kind of mimic the founder because you couldn't mimic three of them and i guess it was like okay i have to be myself the reason i'm i've been given the job for a reason and and authenticity is really important to me so it was like okay how do you be yourself and when it came to I think the really important thing was I obviously had been in the business whilst people knew what I stood for you know what I was passionate about and really you know purpose vision and values of innocence was deep in my heart and whilst I wasn't necessarily the amazing Richard Reid front of house speaker like what I describe as true you know still waters run deep people understood the depth of passion I had to maintain that and therefore could bring people with me because people realized yes we want commercial success but at the heart of this the purpose vision and value still remained and we just continued to try and make get that balance right as we then grew the company from 100 to 200 to 300 to sort of 500 million over the over the next 10 years wow so it was around 100 what's the turnover when you started so when i started it was about 50 million euros as a business when i first joined when coke first invested was around 100 and then when when i finally took over as CEO, it was 200.

6:28We'd launched Juice and kind of gone from smoothies into Juice and the business had doubled very quickly. So I took over at about 200 million and when I left it was 500 million of turnover. Very impressive. Now a lot of startups struggle in the scale up phase, don't they? Because kind of what got you to there doesn't necessarily get you to the next stage. Definitely. What were the key lessons and insights about how to scale a business that, like Innocent, that kind of proven itself, it got to a certain scale. How do you go from that 100 to 500? The trick was you have to be, as I said, incredibly respectful of the core reason that you're all there, the mission, the purpose, but you have to have, I think, enough self-confidence to say, yeah, but things have got to change.

7:04And I'm not a massive process guy by nature, but you have to put in enough process in order to keep moving at pace. So we didn't want to lose that mindset. We're entrepreneurial and we move fast, but that wasn't the same as, oh, well then And let's be funky and have no processes and all just because you start smashing into each other. So it was about creating the disciplines, but making sure that you weren't becoming bureaucratic. And at the same time, making sure that the culture and the brand and the types of people you hired, you know, were people that rolled up their sleeves and got on with it.

7:41They felt passionate about the mission. They had some maybe a bit more experience than some of us had in the past, but they're still prepared to do the work. and being prepared to do the work in a scale-up is really important. You can't come from a big... It's seductive. Let's go and work for Innocent or Tony's. But if you're not prepared to do the work, you're going to die on your backside pretty quickly. Yeah. And for anyone not familiar with Innocent's story, what were the key moments in its history that really defined it as a brand and led to the growth? Using the bottles as a way to talk to consumers.

8:12They had no money. They had a credit card. They were trying to build a brand from the bottom up and they were the first ones to say, oh instead of just writing boring like ingredient stuff we can actually have a conversation with our consumers so they were kind of if you like digital before digital existed with you know the first kind of newsletters and the way that we talked on the packaging and what then became called wackaging and innocent was loved and hated for it in equal measure by different people was definitely a kind of core point of of difference that sense of you know the whole industry said no nothing but nothing but fruit couldn't be done you need preservatives you need whatever just that that sort of slightly intelligent naivety saying yeah but it must be able to be done you know that sense of relentless finding the yes in the no is something we talk about a lot so as ever a great product it was delicious it worked the repeat off the shelf was great and then obviously smoothies you know just became bigger and bigger but it was always a small part of the category you would get you to 100 million but wouldn't get you further and then obviously i guess the next phase was saying okay we're gonna reverse into juice which was the largest category but again how do you do that in a way that creates a real point of difference and you know we talked about stealing with pride from a lot so there was a juice brand in the US that was in a carafe and so we did our own version of that put it in a transparent bottle made the juice product and everything else was a wall of tetra and suddenly we come along with a brand that people kind of like and then a very different product proposition the juice inside wasn't that different But the combination of pack, decent quality product, just transformed it.

9:46So again, that was the next phase of growth. And then from there, we could expand out into super smoothies and coconut waters. And, you know, international growth was clearly a really important part of the story as well. So taking something from your home market, being in the UK, to then starting to build a global European business in the case of Innocent. And finding ways to make the French think that Innocent's a French brand. So again, we talked about copy earlier. One of the things I'm proudest about my time in Ireland is that the French think it's a French brand because we gave a bunch of copywriters say, okay, this is the brand I can feel, but you've got to do French jokes.

10:21You've got to do French storytelling. Your advertising, you know, when you started to do out-of-phone posters, has to be about your connection to the local. And I think particularly with food, people are very, it's very rare for food businesses to kind of quickly go country by country because people are very specific about the kind of food they like and what's French or what's English or whatever. And we just found a way to connect with consumers, particularly if you're a purpose-led brand. I think you have to find a way to connect locally with people. Being a purpose-led brand that's sort of very, you know, flat and the same everywhere, people want to feel a kind of personal connection to a kind of purpose, mission-led brand.

10:56So you have to adapt your marketing locally. I think that was a really key part of the success as well. I mean, I was a competitor at the time. So watching all this kind of from the sidelines a little bit, So one interesting thing I noticed is I think a few, maybe about 10 years prior, maybe less than that, Minute Maid had launched in the UK. And Minute Maid had been astonishingly successful, but lasted only about a year, 18 months. And I think that shows the power of the brand, isn't it? Because essentially, you know, fresh juice in a bottle, you know, craft bottle looks pretty similar. But the Innocent brand just carried it in a way that, you know, another brand wouldn't do.

11:28Two things. And probably one that's an untold story of Innocent is the operational kind of excellence in chill that sat behind that. And one of the founders, John Wright, you know, was a bane brain. And he structured the business from day one to be able to cope with the various phases of growth and having the discipline to have good forecasting, to, you know, do all the grind stuff that when you end up becoming the juice category, I think, you know, Minute Maid, one of the reasons it fell over was because they got their forecasting wrong and suddenly had a whole pile of waste. And waste and chilled is an absolute killer.

11:59So you're suddenly like, selling okay, but I'm killing myself on waste. So there's a lot of sexy, fun marketing stuff about Innocent, but there was an underlying core of kind of high performance operational excellence that also, and it was that combination that I think really drove the success and then allowed us to attract great talent into the business as well. It's a good point because you'd mastered chill supply chain and demand by that point. So you knew what you were doing compared to Minimates. I mean, the other interesting thing is I was at Britwick at the time when Coke bought a stake in Innocent, and we all thought it was going to fail because we're like, yeah, Coke doesn't do acquisitions.

12:33They've bought a share, I think about a 30 % share, haven't they, of Innocent, and we all expect it to fail, and it didn't. But I think that Coke took an interesting approach, didn't it, to the investment. So rather than integrate it into the Coke system and leverage the power of that system, which you'd expect them to do, they actually kept Innocent independent, you know, with lots of autonomy. I mean, what role did that play in the success of the next? My personal view is it was everything in the sense that James Quincy, who's now the CEO of Coke, but was at the time running Europe, who did the deal with us, what he was very clear about was we're buying the brand and the capability of chilled.

13:07We don't have that capability. We love the brand, but we also want that to build a chilled platform for Europe. And that's different from the skill set that we've got. And so very clear as they came in with that minority stake, we're going to leave you alone. and he built into that model protections because big systems love to fiddle. He built it into the way that we did the agreement and the phasing of the kind of buyout so that by the time we got to 2012 and Coke owned all of it, we'd already more than doubled and also built relationships and credibility with the system so that they were like, oh, actually those guys know what they're doing and it's working and they're growing really fast.

13:43Let's just leave them to get on with it and that allowed us to invest in the business and built the business in that kind of purpose-led way. We're making decisions that are like investing for five years at a time and making those choices and all the rest of it. And the bottler, obviously this Coke structure is this sort of split structure, the bottler had an amazing experience in Ambient but absolutely no experience in children. And they really are, they're all drinks, but the yin and the yang of those two things is huge. And they were smart enough to see that and then let us get on with it. I think it's one of the best examples of Innovator's Dilemma because one of my favorite books, the idea that, you know, big companies can't innovate because, well, they can innovate with, you know, with incremental innovation, but when they try and disrupt with new categories, it becomes very hard because, you know, they would probably have viewed Innocent as still quite small.

14:29I mean, I worked on what we called the seed brand portfolio at BritVic and people are always going, oh, yeah, John, you're only 3 % of the turnover. You know, why bother? You know, we'll put Pepsi on promotion in Tesco and we'll easily beat your annual sales. but I think the thing I learned is it takes a lot longer than people think to become successful and you know the whole FMCG machine is all around we'll launch in one year you know we'll put everything behind it it'll be an immediate success but overnight successes rarely ever happen and I think people forget the amount of time that actually goes into like Innocent to build it up grassroots before it becomes a sustainable every market we went into or even product that we launched but you know the classic five year overnight success story story You know, no one had heard of it for the first five years and then they got a waitress listing and then, you know, 2005, 2006, it was already six or seven years old.

15:17No one in a big company would have had the patience for six or seven years. But when it's your own space and similarly with products that we launched, we didn't do the big, put loads of marketing on day one behind something that we believed in. it was always launch two or three different things, see which one's selling itself on shelf because ultimately I genuinely believe if it doesn't sell itself on shelf, it's going to die anyway. However much marketing you throw at it, you can't dress up the pig, so to speak. And so then we would back the things that were working on shelf and have confidence that we could then turn the campaign around or dial up the money.

15:52And spending money on things that are already working is just so much more effective. And when you've got very little marketing money, that's just a smart model. and I just think the big companies get themselves in. The money's available and the big machine is chucking the money. So it's tempting to say, yeah, we've got loads of money, so why don't we spend it on day one? And then when it doesn't work, there's the Spanish Inquisition and then everyone gets fearful. So then they take even longer to launch the next thing because there's more and more rounds of marketing testing so someone's covering their backside.

16:19We were much more, get products to market. Each product launch maybe cost us€100 ,000. So if it didn't work, you were writing off€100 ,000, not€10 or€20 million of marketing campaign. And so it never felt, failure never felt too painful. And then you could back the winners as you went. And similarly with countries, you know, start with a small team, get really clear on what you're trying to achieve. And yet none of our markets, even less than five years, to get to a meaningful scale. And it's similar with Tony's. I mean, we're seeing now amazing success in lots of our markets. But I was like, oh, wow, like it's everywhere in the UK or everywhere in the US.

16:54It's like, yeah, we launched in 2017. Like no one remembers the hard yards for the last five or six years. I think the two best bits of advice in any of this conversation is you need to remove the fear of failure. Because as you say, most people are trying to negate failure rather than optimize success. And then big systems are all designed around annual calendars as well. And if it hasn't kind of hit 10 million in year one, people will go, it's not a success. But most successes happen over a long period of time. So getting that long and short right is incredibly important, particularly of innovation, I think.

17:25because it does take time, doesn't it, to get the right distribution, get consumers to adopt it, get awareness built. Definitely, and some of it's about iteration as well. I mean, Super Smoothies was a great example. Smoothies had worked for a long time and then Naked had come into the market. It was like, do we do it? Do we do a copy? And we sort of went into that category and we didn't get it quite right first time. There was enough rate of sale to go, yeah, there's something here. But we did fast iteration of sort of three different steps over about a year and a half, two years. and then all of a sudden it flipped.

17:56And you would never be able to... if you spent all the time researching that up front, you'd have kind of driven yourself in knots. But we just did small iterations and it was year two, year three, and then suddenly it grew incredibly rapidly. Kind of you tapped into that kind of sense of natural energy with the vitamins as well as the nothing but fruit of the core smoothie range and very quickly it became much bigger than our core range. So it's that patience, but also don't be patient being passive. You've got to be patient, but something's got to change. So what is it? How do we quickly get onto that project?

18:31So it's finding that balance of being always hungry. Continuous improvement, right? How do we get better? How do we get better? The great thing about Chill was when it was really a dog, you just had to kill it because the waste got you so quickly. So in a way, sometimes the temptation is, oh it's a million let's leave it around because it's a million of revenue that's helpful like the waste bills and chilled just made me like yeah kill that one let's focus on that one so that it was sort of a self-protection mechanism the other advantage you've got is speed i mean i remember i i did four years in juice at juice burst and uh the thing that really shocked me is i was used to britbit where i think 12 months would be a really quick turnaround so 12 months would be an on-pack promotion you know probably not even a flavor actually in 12 months probably 18 months to a new flavor.

19:15And then when I turned up at Juice Burst, the private equity owner said, you've got 16 weeks to design a new bottle, design new labels, launch new flavors, get retail distribution, because at that point, it was a food service only brand pretty much. And we wanted to get into retail in 16 weeks. And it was crazy. I mean, we did it because we could parallel everything at the same time. Being small, we could make decisions every single day, parallel shelf testing along with label design, along with kind of like launch information to all the customers, that kind of thing. But I think in a smaller business, you can do so many things quicker, can't you, in a way that – and this is probably another thing.

19:50If you're in the Coke system trying to get a new flavor of innocence through it, take it out. Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, sometimes I think that is overplayed because when you're really small, you can go really fast. But even at Innocent and even here at Tony's now, when you're trading off, okay, we're prioritizing the Netherlands packs that they want or the ones from the US. And they're coming off the same production line and sequencing. You know, I don't want to overplay the, oh, yeah, we can get stuff to market in eight weeks because generally we don't. you have to be thoughtful. And as you get bigger, retailers quickly, you quickly move over the, oh, well, they're small and we're trying to help them to the, you're a big guy now.

20:23If you screw it up, you know, there's pain involved. So once that sort of bar with big retailers and, you know, Innocent was a grocery-led brand and Tony's is a grocery-led brand, there's a certain standard where you go, okay, it is worth taking the time. But where I think you can cut a lot of time out is in the sort of constant, as you say, The risk aversion of covering your back with, you know, yes, I'm a big fan of one round of research. And does it back your gut instinct of what you think about this product? But then people then go, oh, well, it's not quite, let's do another round. And suddenly another six months has gone by.

20:56So I think it's mindset more than it is a system thing. Yeah. And also you don't have to like, seeking approval can be a lot quicker, can't it? Because a few people in the decision making process, you're not competing with other. The thing I found that really challenging at Britvik is, I can't remember how many brands, I mean, we might have 20 brands and I had to fight in every kind of monthly meeting for just, you know, a tiny line on a spreadsheet type thing. Which is why I love this scale of business because, you know, again, when I interview people and bring people in business, I say the difference here is you can pull a lever and see the effect.

21:27You can understand how your personal contribution has made a difference to the company's growth. Whereas I think in some of those bigger systems, lots of bright-headed people, they're like, you know, if I was here, would it really make a difference? And I think in this, I love this phase of going, you know, 100 million to 500 million, because there's a lot of kind of big choices and you need a lot of brainpower and you need a lot of capabilities. But at the same time, you can still see how you make a difference. And I think that's really powerful for attracting talent. So talking about the 100 to 500 journey, you're now applying that to a different business here at Tony's.

21:58Tell me when the call came in and why did you say yes? So I spent 16 years at Innocent. I'd done nine and a bit as CEO. And we'd reached that point where it's like, okay, it's about to, there's another three-year cycle coming up. Do I want to stay and do my kind of fourth three-year cycle as CEO? I just, honestly, to some extent, I just didn't have the vision of, okay, the next phase. We'd taken it. We built this amazing manufacturing site. I just felt like I'd taken it as far as I could take it. And there's only so many times you can go around in one category. Obviously, there are connections between Innocent and Tony's in the sense that the founders of Innocent are also invested in Tony's.

22:35So when I was chatting to them and obviously sort of know them very well about, oh, I was thinking about what next, can you introduce me to some people as I start to think about that journey? They said, yeah, sure, and met a few people. Then about a few months later, they came back and said, oh, well, Hank Yan, who is the sort of CEO and sort of major shareholder of Tony's, is thinking of it's the time for him. You know, he's loved that 0 to 100 million phase and is thinking, actually, is he the right guy to go from 100 to 500 rather than step back as a non-exec and so he was going through that journey so they said to me are you interested i said yes but i can't move i was thinking well they're not going to allow me to come and do it from the uk and but covid had happened everyone got used to a world of teams and so now yeah i do a kind of one week on one week off in in in the netherlands and i jumped at it i mean if you're me who loves this phase of business who has very passionate about purpose-led business you know i'm I'm a co-chair of the Better Business Act.

23:35I led Innocent into B Corp. I'm a huge believer in demonstrating that good businesses can be large businesses. There aren't many better brands and opportunities in terms of the potential that Tony's had. So it was like, you know, I couldn't go and join Shell as a sort of next step. So it was like, and actually there aren't many that are of this size and this potential. So I was like, that's mine. I was very clear. As soon as he'd said, I was like, yeah, that's mine. I want that. and then and here we are now anyone in holland will know tony's very well because i mean literally can't go to a store without a wall of in fact the wall behind you is is probably like most albert heinz it's literally i mean the hotel i was staying in last night actually that had a like two walls of tony's that you could kind of you know buy with your card sort of thing but obviously you're starting out a lot of the market but for anyone who doesn't know the origin story there's a fascinating story isn't there about how the brand came to life and it wasn't what you thing he wasn't like i've got a product idea let's let's dream up the best chocolate brand um it was motivated by quite a different motive wasn't it yeah i mean what i say is the the mission came first and the business happened by accident you know we were founded by three journalists who were who had a tv show and they were investigating inequalities in the supply chain and in 2000 there'd been a big industry promise that we were going to solve child labor issues you know there's one and a half million children working in child labor in west africa and it was more back then.

24:59For me, that's totally unacceptable. And for them, it was too. And they said, okay, five years on from the chocolate company saying, oh, we don't need regulation, we'll sort it out ourselves. Let's see how they've done. And they went to West Africa and they realized that they'd done absolutely nothing. And the situation was pretty shocking in terms of the exploitation that was going on in the industry. And they then tried to persuade the big guys to say, well, why don't you do this kind of bar and make it more ethical? and after the phone being put down on them so many times, they were like, how do we ramp this up?

25:32And they got themselves arrested. Yeah, how did the arrest happen? Because they basically found an EU law that said if you're aware of child labour in a product and then you participate in that product, you're committing a crime. So they walked into a police station and said, you need to arrest me. I know that there's child labour. I've been and seen it. I know there's child labour in this chocolate bar. you need to arrest me I'm committing a crime under e law and of course the police and the legal system like really but they kind of kept bumping it up and obviously this was all part of a tv documentary so it was becoming more afraid eventually the courts threw it out so you can't prove that that particular chocolate bar was related to the but they flew over children you know trafficked children from west africa and had them in the court and and then after that part they were realized okay we're not going to persuade them to change we have to lead by example we have to do it ourselves and the sort of third series of this documentary was you know dragon's den how do we make a chocolate bar and you know so many accidents the packaging you see behind me right now was literally the thing that you know who's he's still our you know one of our in-house crew drew on a sort of napkin as a 10 minute brief of for the tv show and then they went to our you know which is a co-packer we now own and said could you make something yeah well the only thing we can make is chunky bars so and that's you know there was no thought in oh let's differentiate with the chunky bars like we need bars in in four days time well this is the mold we've got okay make that and then so all these happy accidents that then turned out to be winning consumer propositions of a chunky bar with bright packaging that completely breaks the codes on shelf so it sells itself and then obviously we've worked hard over time to make sure that that chocolate's absolutely delicious and and in lots of bold flavors so yeah it you know one of those accidents that happened and and you know that's how how it came about isn't it insane because you assume you most companies would employ a very expensive design agency, spend years kind of perfecting it.

27:28Ten minutes to find a design, to put in a show. As you know, when you put something like this together, it's like, we've got an episode that's going out next Tuesday. Can you do this by then? And, you know, Serendipity, they also went, they sort of flew to Ben and Jerry's and said, can you give us some ideas? And the guy who was in front of the camera was a guy called Tone van der Koeken. And they're like, well, I'm going to call it Tone's Chocolate. He was like, well, if you want to be an international global impact brand, it's got to have an international name. So why don't you call it Tony's?

27:57Instead, that was the Ben & Jerry suggestion. And, you know, all these years on, we now work with Ben & Jerry's through our supply chain and they source cocoa from us. So there's just all these really nice kind of moments, but all crashed together as part of a sort of TV production process that then turn out to be these amazing pillars of the brand. I love that. It's so funny, isn't it? Because these acts, when you look back at the success stories and you kind of think, oh, there must be loads of thought that goes into it. And sometimes it is just, you know, force of circumstances or constraints that, you know, the constraints of having to take whatever the co-packer had available at the time.

28:30Absolutely. You know, I mean, the product itself is, I think, one of the most essential ingredients, to excuse the pun, but, you know, it is essential. So what goes into making the chocolate so good? Because I confess as a regular consumer here, and I've tried many alternatives, it is genuinely one of the best bars of chocolate you can find. So I think a combination of making sure that you use high quality ingredients and you're not cutting corners. And obviously as bigger companies get more cost focused, it's easy to say, oh, well, we'll have a little bit of the less of the more expensive milk powder.

29:00So just maintaining quality standards around how you get that richness of flavor. And then I think the bravery that we've had around flavor combinations. And yes, everybody's done a sea salt caramel, but we kind of did a sea salt caramel quite early. And the chunkiness of the bits is something that people in our products is something that people really appreciate. So it's that combination of good quality chocolate with kind of interesting inclusions and bits has just resonated with people and it works. And I'm totally with you. We can all get very excited about the brand and the positioning and the stunts we've done and the fact that we're an impact brand.