UP498 Other People's Money: Does Debt have a Branding Problem?

0:00Hi there, welcome. It's Richard Gillis here from Unofficial Partner. Today we are talking other people's money. This is our regular series on sports finance with regular co-host Matt Rogan, who was, of course, one of the co-founders of Two Circles. Today's guest is a special one. It's Ed McBride, who is Managing Director of UK Investment Banking at Deutsche Bank, one of the city's most prolific and successful deal makers. So we talk about what sport looks like from the outside and we run some of the regular themes around sport and finance, things like private equity, debt financing, takeovers, mergers, acquisitions, all of that stuff.

0:42And we go to Ed for his view and it's enlightening to say the least. Hope you enjoy it. This episode of partner is sponsored by leaders in sport it's that time of year again where thoughts move to west london in the fall or autumn as it's properly known and it's the flagship event leaders week london returns from the 29th september to the 2nd of october with the two-day summit taking place at the alliance stadium in twickenham they'll be hosting many many senior executives from across sport and 54 different countries represented including 100 brands myself and sean will be there representing unofficial partner as ever and we have a deal for you visit leaders in sport.com forward slash up for more information and use up 15 for a 15 percent discount on your summit passes that's not a bad deal might use that myself

1:43Well, let's start with what the job is. Before we get in, there's loads of questions, obviously, that we're going to talk about. But let's just give us an idea because I can see the job title, but I just want to know what it is. What do you do all day? So I'm a financial advisor, a corporate finance advisor, been in the industry, investment banking industry for 25 years, joined an advisory boutique straight out of university. I did have a couple of years in private equity in 08-09, but I spent the best part of my career in investment banking advising clients of all shapes and sizes, both listed and private, and financial sponsors, so private equity, on M &A activity and financing activity, whether that's equity raising or debt raising.

2:31And any specific sectors that you spend a bunch of your time in? I know it's not a sport, but where do you spend the majority of your time? I'm a generalist and I've done, you know, covered all sorts of sectors over the course of the last 25 years. But I spend the vast majority of my time in the consumer and retail and leisure sectors. Very good. Not without parallels, but. I was going to say quite often the conversation in the sports bubble is looking for comparables, you know, looking for things that look and feel a little bit like sport. And there's always the, you know, under the banner of sport, you've got things like, you know, big football clubs, but also loads of other things in between.

3:11So trying to sort of categorise sport, I always think is quite a tricky one. And I don't quite know how. One of the one of the interesting bits of this conversation is what sport looks like from your seat, because we don't quite we don't often get that perspective. and one of the threads of the last few years has been private equity particularly you know some big cvc being most obvious coming into formula one and then rugby but it's it's also trying to work out what the relationship is like and ultimately it's called other people's money it's sort of what the money does to the people running sport and how the source of the money changes their behavior so that's the sort of it's a bit that's a bit of a brain dump in terms of an intro in terms of what the thing is about but do you see any comparable you know anything that you think you look at sport and think okay well there's a bit of this there's a bit of that yeah look i mean i think the most comparable sector that i deal with and and sort of advise around frequently is the live entertainment sector yeah so at concerts festivals ticketing that relates to that which has been a huge growth area particularly coming out of the covid era where people are seeking more and more experiential leisure activity whether that's family or individual based but that has been a huge growth area for investment banking activity but also just the businesses themselves are going very well.

4:44And so as that relates to sport, I mean, I think sport and from my seat to your point, Richard, is that I would say 20 years ago, it was considered a sector which, you know, was largely dominated by entrepreneurs, individual entrepreneurs, quirky types quite often. And I'd say, you know, particularly over the last 10 years, it's much more professionalised, institutionalized, much more investable. I think the investors that I speak to are a little bit cautious around it, given the power of the fan bases here. And I think you do have to tread a little bit cautiously so that, you know, you retain your own reputation, particularly in football clubs, I would say.

5:32But I think it is now considered to be, it has an ecosystem around its sport, whether that's advisors, financing, people who are experts in the sector. And it really does have a strong following from the private equity community where capital is flowing more and more. And they're looking for opportunities where they can make attractive returns. And sport is certainly one of those given, you know, it's only partway along the journey of maturing where they can see returns which are attractive to them. And that's across the value chain. It's across, you know, owning clubs, but it's also media rights.

6:08It's also stadium and the infrastructure behind that and what you can do with it. I guess that's if you think about the music and entertainment industry, for example, it feels to me as somebody who's always tried to go to my favourite venue in London is always the Shepherds Bish Empire. sort of like a quite small gig venue and yet and that's now part of the sort of the bigger academy group and it feels like there's a bit of a polarization going on in the events and entertainment space you know the big getting bigger and the smaller may be struggling in that environment as well and we're starting to see that professionalization but also a bit of polarization i think in sport as well whether you look at media rights or anything else and frankly it's as you say did you think entertainment has hit its maturity point yet or is a little bit a little bit more in there yet look I think it's it's different across geographies I think there's more to go for particularly in continental Europe I think in the UK and the US is actually quite mature I mean the way that the top artists go about planning their concerts, I think, and the ecosystem around that is pretty mature.

7:22But I think there's more to go for in other parts of the world. And you define things as an asset class. One of the conversations in sport is, is sport now an asset class? And there's a sort of debate in terms of actually what does that mean in practicality and how useful it is as a phrase. But it's something that gets dropped around the place. I'd just be interested in what that means to you. Well, to me, an asset class is something that gets thought about separately from other areas of potential investment. And I think now sport is on that road and has people who just deal in sport and sport investment.

8:05And therefore, it probably is appropriate at this point in time to call it an asset class of its own. I mean, it used to be lumped together with lots of other media and entertainment activity, but I don't think it is anymore in quite the same way. And there are dedicated teams, both at investment banks and sponsors that spend all of their time focused on just the sports sector, because it warrants that. And there are so many different opportunities from the well-established sports to the less established and growing opportunities. it's always that's a really interesting area that it always seems to me that you know the sport specific cell and i say this is somebody who's been pitched to by sport specific peo firms sport specific lawyers sports wherever it might be always seems really focused on the revenue top line growth opportunity if i can introduce you to this person you can pitch with this other portfolio business and that's all well and good or sometimes I've found some of those promises are better in theory than they are in practice.

9:10But actually, I'm really interested in the fact that sport's got so much to learn around all the things that other sectors can teach it around, in particular in the sort of advisory space, however you frame that, whether that's efficiency, understanding margins, understanding and managing your whole supply chain, not just your top line revenue number. so I flit between believing in our sports sector in generalist advice and specialist advice and I actually think the answer for sport I don't know what you think of this would depends on what it is that the primary value lever is for for any sports property if actually efficiency and margin I wouldn't be looking at any of the sports investment ecosystem as the right place to go.

9:55Yeah, it's a very interesting point. And it's probably to do with the sort of maturity of the sector. But yeah, I think you're quite right. The focus has been on the top line, not necessarily on the cost base that sits below that, and driving a return on investment capital, which is the way we think about many industries today, in quite the same way. I think, as private equity has come into the sector more and more, just given the way that they are, you know set up and focused and driving their return and incentivized there'll be no doubt greater scrutiny over those you know cost lines to ensure it works for both the investor and the fan and i think that's the point it needs to continue to work for the fan as well for sure the question in there about managing decline or if you're looking at an industry where and i'm not saying sport for a minute is a declining industry but there are bits of it that are going to really struggle and be outside of the, you know, to Matt's framing of Big Get Bigger, there are going to be a whole load of properties.

10:56One of the questions I've always wondered is what private equity does to make money from that sort of asset when all of the rest of us are saying, well, the media rights income is going to go away at some point. How do you make money from a declining outlook? And it appears to me that private equity does actually come in and that's that's its mindset but i'm all i just don't know how you know what it does to do that yeah yeah i mean you'll be aware richard there are different private equity firms focus on different types of investment profile and there are those that you know are better or certainly have a better track record of investing in the in companies with declining top lines to achieve the returns that you know that they're after rather than those that are where the top line is still growing.

11:46And how do they look at that? I mean, they will sort of look for a potential for efficiencies, both in costs, but then also in the financing base and how the business is financed. And they will look to make their own return from how to exit the business. And Matt, I'm conscious you've got firsthand experience of this, how to exit the business and what the optimal solution is and whether that's to put it together with a strategic that can help the business have a sustainable future. But at the outset, you can't necessarily underwrite that exit. So it's typically to do with growing the earnings and what we call the EBITDA quite often through the efficiencies that come through the business to correspond to the declining top line.

12:35it's a it's a really interesting space that i think in terms of you know the reality is um different types of business are better suited for different types of finance so if you look at um you know another example might be the the sort of trajectory of you know to your point on entrepreneurial founded businesses edge you know mark mcormack set up img many decades ago So if you look at the last five years of that business, this sort of comes to the conclusion that some of that entity, as it's changed and shaped and morphed, is going to be well set in a quoted environment. And some of that is better managed privately.

13:19So you have, you know, the more rights holder focus piece sitting in one space and the more kind of agency, human capital type piece sitting somewhere else. um you know and if you look at the the history of manchester united being public and then private and then having um a little bit still public which everyone forgets about which is the bit in the states um you know what is your take on um i mean we're part of this podcast is trying to just give people a little bit more understanding as to what business is better suited to what type of financing You know, where would you what would need to be true of a business to really thrive in that quoted environment versus in the private environment, maybe with PE funding as the center of it?

14:05You know, what tends to be true of each of the different types of financing in terms of what works? I mean, the publicly listed market is a pretty unforgiving one. You know, you have to report numbers in the US. It's quarterly in the UK. It's sort of every every six months. but you're you're constantly communicating to the market how you're performing uh regular questions from shareholders so the companies that are suited to that sort of environment um and it's also that that the publicly listed investors are typically short-termist in their horizon so they're not looking out five years they're looking out you know 12 months sometimes two years they might say two years but in reality it's probably a bit shorter sometimes And so you need to have, to make it work, a relatively predictable business with a strong brand and track record.

15:03And the track record is important when you're going through the IPA process of marketing your business to investors.

15:14And it needs to have a sort of growth story. I mean, not always, but it's certainly helpful to have a growth story. and when does that work? I mean it's always helpful to have a few pairs that you can point to with similar characteristics, similar sector with valuation benchmarks which are you know sufficiently attractive to make it work so that you know investors already have some confidence and conviction in the story that you're telling around your business. I think that's the sort of business which works well in the public markets. It comes in cycles of course as well so So, you know, of course, pre-COVID, there was a big cycle in the UK, lots of businesses coming out of private equity being listed in 2020, 2021.

15:57That has slowed. Yeah. And no doubt it will come back, both in London, but also sort of other markets as well. It's been stronger in continental Europe. But the valuation benchmarks need to work, particularly as private equity look at it and think about their exits. They're assessing that. They're assessing sale to trade player. they're assessing sale to another sponsor and increasingly they're assessing you know whether to put their investment into a continuation vehicle yeah so not realize the return but kick it down the road it was interesting being part of the you know we sold our tiny business at the time our majority stake in our tiny business into WPP so this is a business of probably turning over about five million quid I can't really remember at that point and at one point worked out what percentage two circles profit was of WPP's global annual profit and there were quite a lot of decimal points involved after the north um and and Claire my wife who Ed knows did a stunning job of sort of almost protecting us from some of the governance and structure and things that comes into that um you know for us it was quarterly reporting cycle insofar as you know even an agency but a business like we were is a little bit seasonal it's a little bit um challenged if you have to go through six monthly hiring reviews because we were needing people every month um so it did a great job of protecting us but wasn't helpful uh and was going to hamstring us in terms of our growth but also really made sure we listened to the helpful governance stuff that we as a business needed in order to professionalise and kick on.

17:44So with the help of somebody called Dominic Granger, who's actually just stepped down from WPP, who's a fantastic individual, sort of almost created a greenhouse-type structure from us within WPP, where he kind of protected us from the wind and the rain, but sort of refracted all the good stuff into our little greenhouse and helped us grow quickly. But without that, it would have been a challenging environment for an agency, a fast-growth agency to live within. and I guess we then jumped to the other side of the fence and did the P thing but Gareth's better to to tell that side of the story finding WTPP as a as an owner at that point in time sounds like the ideal sort of buyer for your business to allow you to to prosper under under stewardship that was allowing you to continue to grow is that a fair representation yeah absolutely I mean we joined into an environment where we knew international growth was going to be key for us.

18:41We all had our mortgages on the line still and we were very confident getting paid in the UK, less confident getting paid for our work in markets where we didn't have as many personal relationships, right? So there's a personal, de-risking personal investment in that. Part of it was about having calling cards internationally. So at the time we joined WPP. Sir Martin Sorrell was on the board of Formula One. I believe he was the second external person to speak to the membership of the IOC after Ban Ki-moon. And frankly, the biggest rights, I think they've changed quite a lot now, but the biggest rights holders in the world, the FIFAs, the UEFA, the IOCs, wouldn't talk to us as an agency without having the backing of a global holding group.

19:31Goldberg Hubbing Company was just how business was done in the sports space to enable it to professionalise and we were able to ride that wave and with the support of the right people to give a great return to WPP at the right point for them to take a step back keep enough of a state to roll up in their accounts consolidated still and Gareth and the team at Bruin did a really good job for that next bit of the journey so it was right place right time we've made the again in a heartbeat um i'm really grateful to my wife for the work she did help me navigate what was a was a real mace well i mean i was just gonna actually go back to almost go back to the beginning where we talked about your job ed i'm how do you make money i'm interested in the incentives around all the various sort of players and we we call it you know the city and we call it the banking sector.

20:23But just take me through what are the main incentives for you and where do you make money? Yeah, I personally specialize in M &A advice and financing advice. The bank as a whole and banks in general make money, I would say, from a number of different sources. lending so the the credit side of it advice around capital raising so equity capital raises both in the public markets and in the private markets where fees are made M &A advice and M &A advice I think is the sort of holy grail in investment banking because if you can lead with that then the other opportunities often sit behind it whether that's financing or otherwise and then there's sort of what we call transaction banking as well the sort of cash management side of banking and we do that for a whole host of different client types from publicly listed companies private companies sponsors high net worth individuals sovereign wealth funds pension funds so to make that real for us you know i would just hope it was in the early days was a time and materials business right so we used to write a check when we'd done a load of work for a client mostly which involved us sort of data modeling when consultancy advice and so on and then the business has since transitioned to still doing that but also sort of taking shares of upside and the investment hypothesis from a PE perspective was obviously in favor of that because it enabled you to get out of purely you know for every 1000 whatever it is amount of revenue you need a person you get well leveraged that but i'm guessing in banking it's the same right so there's some time and materials and some shares of upside in terms of how you charge for things um it depends there is some share there is a ratchet quite often on on sort of m &a type fees if that's what you're referring to matt yes there is um and a lot of what we do is unsuccessful So our fees on the M &A side are only paid typically when there is a successful transaction.

22:43So we spend the vast majority of our time, I would say, working on things that don't actually happen and marketing transactions that don't actually happen. So it's only on the sort of few that do happen that we get paid. And sort of the fees in those circumstances are typically an agreed absolute number, sometimes a percentage. And if you're selling a company, for example, it may have a ratchet component to it, subject to the amount that is agreed, ultimately. And what's the difference between the banks? They all have different cultures and expertise. I think what we provide and why one bank gets selected over another is to do with the specific insights that that advisor may have around a situation.

23:30And that could be a contact into the CEO, for example, of a target. It could be a good relationship with the top shareholder. And so we're always looking for those angles. and you know different banks do that in different ways but that they're there we do similar things i would say in general but we're always sort of looking for the unique angle which differentiates us from another back to the sport as asset class thing there are boutique banks sports banks emerging small you know very very specialist are you a sort of series of boutiques is that what Is that a department store analogy that you've got a whole load of there are people and or departments who are, you know, particularly good in certain areas.

24:17And that's you're looking all the time at that across the, you know, across a bank in terms of why I would engage with Deutsche versus someone else. It's an interesting question. I mean, we have lots of different teams with with specific expertise. So we'll have a TMT team, an industrials team, a leisure team, a UK team. They don't operate. I don't think I wouldn't say they operate like boutiques. They're not independent of one another entirely. We're talking all the time. And so there'll be a lot of conversation about the sort of opportunities that we're going after collectively. and quite often any specific situation you'll have a team which is which is cross-staffed from you know a variant of all of those including financing quite often to make sure that you're putting the best of the bank forward to the client so that they can use the services appropriately with permission of rich who's definitely the boss in this pairing um can i ask about a specific type of financing i know we're jumping around a little bit but debt because it's it's a particular hobby horse of mine having initially been absolutely terror terrified of putting debt into my business and then actually finding we should do some really interesting things with it in particular just generate significant return for the team that we cut into the deal um i think debt gets a really bad rep in the sports industry because a our understanding of it is quite superficial and be some of the early examples of it to your point earlier have done a really good job of disenfranchising fans um are there examples or what type of businesses in generally and i guess specifically in the sports space you've got any ideas work for debt like where does it work and what does it mean when it works what does it look like yeah so i mean back to corporate finance a little bit 101 but uh um in most cap structures there is a place for debt provided that that fixed servicing stream the fixed interest stream is serviceable from the cash flows of the business Now, the nature of many sports businesses is that they are somewhat volatile.

26:50So that needs to be taken into account when assessing the appropriate amount of debt to put on a business. But in the structure, debt often comes at a cost of financing which is lower than equity, certainly private equity. and so having that lower cost of financing is typically pretty attractive to the overall investment case for a business ensuring that it is serviceable but as you say Matt there have been some examples of that which I think have clouded the picture somewhat what happened to Manchester United many years ago on the buyout and you've seen many other football clubs which have struggled because they've been laden with debt which they haven't ultimately been able to service and taken over by lenders, which is the tragic story you don't want to repeat.

27:42But in most cases, there is a place for it within the structure. I saw the Glazers takeover of United, which is what you're referencing there, as the greatest deal done in sport. And I just wondered if that's, the banker part of you might say, actually, no, I'll tip my hat to how they've done that. I think that the counter argument would be. And look, I understand there are arguments on both sides, but the counter argument would be that they put the business and the club in jeopardy at one point in time. They've obviously managed to work their way through that with good outcomes. But it was a risk profile that I'm sure the average fan didn't enjoy.

28:29I do think you're right about the misunderstanding of debt and the way it's reported. And there's a sort of brand problem or challenge with debt, isn't it? When in sport, you do have the fan base and the media that services it, a constituency that maybe doesn't understand it and or the possibilities of it or the potential or just the line below the headline. and it becomes quite, I wonder how that plays because that's real, that's a real challenge, isn't it? Football fans en masse, it's like when private equity, there's quite often a clue in the name, they don't like that bit of sport because they don't want it, they don't want to be in the Daily Mail, they don't want to be on the back pages.

29:14There's a whole thing running around CBC and rugby that you can sense that they don't want that level of public scrutiny in terms of being interrogated. What's your take on that? I completely agree, Richard. There's a stigma around the use of debt in sport in particular. And as it relates to the sponsors, I think, you know, they're very, very cautious around football clubs, just given the potential for lots of negative publicity there if things don't go according to plan. And I'd say in other sports, you know, you've seen it with F1, you've seen it with, you know, women's tennis. You have seen private equity go into there because they're sort of, you know, the point that F1 was done, it was a growing sport and there was an awful lot to do.

30:01And I think it, you know, very much benefited without too much risk from the fan base. But I think private equity will continue to be pretty careful about the big clubs in football in particular. there are you know there are there are plenty of businesses in the supply chains whose revenue streams you know if they're working across any number of sports that fits the seasonal calendar or producing ticketing platforms and technology that cross over entertainment or you know doing the sort of following the img model of having so many different independent businesses you're actually relatively immune you know there's there's plenty of opportunity in there I think where that is entirely investable with with deadlines in it you know if I make it real from a kind of agency environment you know I've seen a situation at the moment where sort of discussing levels of debt with a PE provider you know the hard reality is to your point on the cost of the capital edge you know it's a if you do put a healthy and sustainable entirely sustainable level of debt in there's a difference between being able to play your team um let's just say for the sake of argument a thousand pounds a year in bonus or in three years time being able to pay them ten thousand pounds in bonus just because of the nature of the ownership state you've kicked across to them so it's a it's a branding challenge maybe that's the subject the uh subject line of this podcast debt has a branding problem we had a previous podcast in this series where we talked about the sort of connotations of, so American money, so American investors in sport always comes, it's a loaded term because you can, it's sort of saying, well, we're moving towards an American model, which is all about straight lines.

31:51It's the NFL model. It's a much less volatile investment environment. So as is sovereign wealth and Saudi money and PIF, These are all sort of, there's a lot of codes in terms of the source of money around. And that, when that then lays into sport, I think it then blows up. I mean, it's quite, you know, there's a sort of the story at the moment, people are, you know, mumbling about the number of American owners in the Premier League and what that means. And actually, do we know whose money is actually in the Premier League? I mean is that something that you would be able to establish yeah I mean I haven't done it recently but I think most of it you can sort of trace back to original sources these days I mean yeah American investment it comes to the to the Premier League I think with with the right intentions actually I can see it you know doing the right things for the Premier League I think It's a rational money that will be invested with a return in mind, but also carefully so that so that the sustainability of the club is at the heart of it.

33:12I can see, you know, people love if you're a fan of a club with a sovereign wealth investor, then you love that because. There's no need there's never going to be any trouble. and that's probably the perfect scenario for most fans. It skews the balance somewhat in terms of competition, but it's perhaps no bad thing, therefore, that you've got some big American investors also investing in the Premier League to add a little bit of oomph to the teams without the sovereign wealth capital. This is a really silly question, but how much scope is there for more sovereign wealth investment in the Premier League?

33:54How many sovereign wealth funds are there that can? And Saudi have done it. UAE have done it. You'll know better than me, perhaps. But Qatar money. Qatar is at PSG. Again, it's China. PSG. Yeah. Yes. So there aren't that many sovereign wealth funds because the Canadian pension funds, I couldn't see them doing it. unlikely that norwich in in the norway sovereign wealth fund is going to do it so i think it really is where uh you know there's a passion with the sovereign wealth fund and i think that probably sits in the middle east yeah there's i've got an esg question actually because a few years ago you know until relatively recently because it's obviously become very politicized and one of the questions or one of the threads of thought again people would come on podcasts like this and talk about esg investment so people like yourself or people who in you know in the city there they would look sponsors would start to behave differently sponsor to put pressure on the esg reasons and also investors in sport would need governance to be better they would need certain things around uh you know either climate or dei or whatever it is or you know representation on boards, all of those things.

35:18What's that like now? Has that changed because of the political climate? I'm talking obviously about Trump in the States and the attacks on ESG from people like Musk. Well, you've seen certain big corporates outside of sport de-emphasize their DEI plans. And ESG, I think, was a very, very important thing for a number of years. But I think given and the administration change in the US has been de-emphasized, particularly by US corporates. I think in Europe and in the UK, I think you're seeing people re-emphasizing their plans to some extent. I think behind the scenes, though, it's not quite the priority it was.

36:04It was sort of 18 months, two years ago. So I think that has been a change. I think it's the reality. at my bank are continuing to emphasize the importance of ESG in all respects, whether it comes to green financing, whether it comes to having the right people on the board with the right diversity. It's an important aspect of everything we think of. Is there a way of do you have any sanctions as a bank to punish people who aren't falling in line with that sort of directive? I'd need to look into that further to give you the detail. But I think the market now almost has its own punishment, which is you can get financing priced when it's green and you have, you know, authentic green credentials at a price which is more attractive than if it wasn't done in a green way.

36:56you touched on the relative instability of some of the areas of regime change politically in the states and things Rich and we're just starting to see as we record this other things kicking off in the Middle East in addition to what's already been going on so it feels like reading the FT over the weekend it's just a general sense of nervousness around what the next 6-12 months look like not I was asking you specifically about sport ed, but what are some of the headwinds that any industry might encounter does Deutsche Bank feel in the next sort of six, 12 months? Yeah. Where does that instability play through in a few weeks' time as opposed to in a couple of years' time, do you think?

37:43Yeah. I mean, we held our consumer conference. We have an annual consumer conference with all the big corporates presenting and meeting investors. We held that two weeks ago. So, look, and I think the key themes around that point coming out of the conference were the U.S. consumer is stretched at this point in time. And you can see them trading down in their purchases, trading down in everything they're doing sort of out of the home and they're spent. You've seen de-stocking in the channels in the US, so in particular in sort of pharmacy and supermarkets. So inventory levels are lower and pantry levels for the individual consumers as well.

38:27And that is in contrast to what we're seeing here in Europe. So I think as a result of some of the headwinds and U.S. tariff news, there is capital flow, and there's evidence of this, into Europe and out of the U.S. and so I think it could and there's an awful lot still to play out which is highly uncertain it could it could be that you know Europe in terms of its world position benefits from all of this and so I as I say I think it's it's it's difficult to call at this point in time but I think the themes coming out of our conference were all pretty pretty positive to support that thesis it's interesting in uh you know obviously talking in in the uk and think about the implications of that for for an industry where the europe really the tale of europe really wags the american dog in terms of fund flow for example you know the the next tranche of investors in broadcast rights for example have already touched a little bit on warner ruther's discovery or amazon or Apple or any of the next caps on the rank.