Midlife Divorce: The Facts, The Finances, and The Fallout with Jenny Hutt

24:50So everyone needs to take a beat and really look at the full picture of what's going on and what you want to achieve. what kind of outcome you're looking for. What I wish they knew, I mean, there's stuff you can do while you're married, happily married, like know your financial state, know what debt the two of you have together, what debt you each have independently, who owns the house, how much is the mortgage, what kind of retirement accounts are there.

25:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Okay, take a beat. Yeah. What percentage of your clients don't know this information? I mean, many don't. I will say that, and this is not their fault, so please understand, I do not in any way blame the women. I actually think in a healthy marriage where one partner stays home and the other partner is working outside of the house, they both are equally valuable to the partnership. And it's because the one who's home with the kids is home with the kids that the other one can be working, bringing in the money to support the family. They're both needed for that ecosystem. And if a spouse chooses to not share with the other spouse financial information or access to bank accounts, then that's not a real partnership and that's not okay.

26:00And often women don't realize that it's not okay because nobody's told them. They've sort of put their trust into something and then they weren't really treated fairly. Now, the good news is, depending on your state and the state of New York is an equitable distribution state, the monies that are accumulated during the marriage, even if it's just the husband's salary, that's marital property. So you're entitled to half of that equitable distribution, which in many cases is half of that marital property in the absence of a prenuptial agreement that might say otherwise or a postnuptial agreement.

26:31And I think California is even a bigger split. So it's very important to know that you have rights. I want women to know their rights. And most law firms or many law firms will offer complimentary consultations. We do. I mean, I will talk to anybody for an hour happily because just to let you know what you're entitled to under the eyes of the law, which is why I say like these cases really shouldn't go to court unless there's an actual substance abuse, stealing, reckless behavior, abuse, physical or mental. There are cases where it should go to court. But when it's just about dividing assets and fair custody or shared parenting, then a settlement should be able to be had because it should be based on the law.

27:17Because if you go to court, a judge is going to make the decisions for you. It's better that you're going to make the compromise yourself than having someone decide the compromises for you. If you're listening or watching and you are thinking about divorce, not even, it's just good to know what's what. It's good to know that in New York State, your partner, the breadwinner, the person who has the more money or if you're the custodial parent, they're going to give you child support for the child up to the age of 21 in New York and sometimes 22. If the kid is in college, you can decide to do that.

27:49That's the law. So getting to those numbers, there's all these calculations and apps that do it for the lawyers because most of us aren't very good at math. But it's good to know these things. what you are legally entitled to. And retirement accounts, if that retirement account has grown throughout the marriage, you are entitled, the monies that were added to it from marital money, you're entitled to your share of that. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are worth knowing.

28:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Because the statistics around this are pretty scary. The financial impacts, again, I was Googling statistics. After divorce, a woman's household income drops by 41 % on average. Yes. compared with 23 % for men. And that was in 2023. Depends on who their lawyer is. Well, I saw this in clinic all the time. So I would, you know, I'd been taking care of this woman, delivered her babies, and then she'd come in and ask for STD testing when there was infidelity. I'm sorry. And so she'd come in devastated, you know, shuffled in in like a hoodie. And, you know, usually this over-the-top glamorous woman, she's just devastated and so embarrassed to have to come in and say, I need STD testing.

29:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver:My partner wasn't faithful. Not all divorces end because of infidelity. Or she had had an encounter, you know, for whatever it is. So I'm going through and then, you know, we get into the discussion and it was shocking to me how many of them were moving into losing their homes, moving into tiny apartments, struggling to have to find a job the first time in her adult life. You know, we live in the deep South and a lot of these women had had partnered right after college and, you know, worked a year or two and then chose to stay home. And then all of a sudden are faced with this, you know, inevitability of she is financially way worse off and she doesn't have a skill set that she can market right away, you know, to get a job.

29:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So my aunts went through something really similar. My parents stayed married until death and that was great. And then, but my, I watched some of my aunts like have to move into government housing after divorces and their kids. That stays with you. And so I've always told my girls, you know. Be financially dependent. That. Yeah. Always. Yeah. You know, there's never, never, never not been a discussion in our house. You know, you must be able to raise the kids alone that you bring into this world. If your husband's here, that's great and that's wonderful and amazing. But you need to be prepared to do this on your own if you have to.

30:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver:I mean, it sounds so cold and terrible. Yeah. But I think that's the reality. I choose to look at it differently, though. Not about that you need to do it because a man might have them leave and you're high and dry. so you better be able to take care of yourself. I mean, that is reality. But I look at the empowering side of it, that when you are able to be financially independent and take care of yourself, then the rest is a bonus. Then it's not a dependency because you're afraid. Then it's not a fear-based decision to be married or to stay when you're not happy. I like the idea of being independent and having something that matters to you beyond the family and the children.

30:54And I say that as a mother whose kids are everything. I mean, my whole life is about my children. I'll work till I'm 95 so I can keep doling out as needed to my kids so they can have whatever they want that they can't afford on their own. Like that's my kids are my my kids are my reason for being. I mean, whether that's right or that's wrong. But having a job and a career and all different ones throughout the years is so fulfilling and it keeps my mind going. There's other benefits beyond the financial winds of working. I am giddy when I get up in the morning now. I feel so purpose driven and good inside, like I'm making a difference.

31:35And there's so much value in that. There's that thing that when you're feeling bad about something, do something for someone else. And it really works. It really helps. It takes you right out of your own ish. It makes you feel better. So maybe it's selfish. But I really like the feeling of knowing that I'm making a difference for somebody else, that I'm making their life a little bit better. I'm all for working and contributing to society. I think it's whether you need to financially or you don't.

32:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So if someone is thinking about divorce, give me the three top things that she should be doing right now. Yeah, she needs a tax return. She needs to get a hold of all the tax returns. Okay. She needs to see whose name is on what. She needs to get snapshot of the balances of all the accounts. She needs to check things like the kids accounts, if there are kids or their college accounts. How is that being provided for? Is there life insurance? What kind of health insurance? I mean, shouldn't we all be doing this? Yes. If I knew then what I know now, it's always that sort of hindsight is it. By the way, hindsight is 20, 20.

32:35I look at the black box warnings being removed on the hormone therapy now in the whole like 10 years before menopause. And I'm saying to myself, OK, I still get my period at 55 years old. I'm going to be 56 and I'm still getting my period. Is it too late? Because it's going to end. It's going to end. It's going to end soon. You're fine. But I've been left because it's the hindsight. Like if I knew then what I know now, if I knew 10 years ago that I should start hormone therapy at the onset of her, nobody knew.

33:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Yeah. So it's that kind of thing. Like we don't know, but now we do. So if you're listening, just get a clear picture of what's going on at home. Not whether your husband's doing something wrong or you're doing something wrong. Just like a full picture of your finances. And honestly, how much is your mortgage? There are many clients that don't even know how much the mortgage is on their home. I remember seeing a conversation like ours on Oprah years ago. And I had little kids. And I got out of residency, went right into practice. And my husband is an engineer and just took over all the bills and everything.

33:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver:I could not have told you what my salary was. I had no idea. I just shopped at Target and went to the grocery store. That's what you did. Didn't spend any other money. and all the bills were paid and I was fine. Then I see this special on Oprah with these women who were absolutely blindsided by divorce and financially destitute. And so I sat my husband down and was like, I didn't say if you leave me, but I said something might happen to you and I'm clueless. So we have since then sit down on a regular basis and kind of go through all the basics. And then we live in a hurricane prone area. So we have a box that I have to take if we evacuate with all of the important things that includes all that financial information.

34:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So I think a lot of partners and relationships kind of leave the financial end to one half, and that's probably a mistake. I think that what you did and continue to do is really smart. I did have to rustle it from him a little bit. He's like, what, am I doing something wrong? Because that's where they derive their power sometimes. They feel, I get it, I'm the provider, why do I have to, what are you checking up on me? But I think there's real value in having the dialogue and at least knowing the username and passwords and being able to assess what's what in the event that you'll need it. Now, hopefully you won't ever need it.

34:49But, and I also think for women that you should have a little bit of money of your own somehow socked away. Oh, here's something important in New York. And I don't know across the rest of the country, but inheritance, if you're going to get an inheritance. That was my next question. That is separate property unless you commingle it. So if you are given an inheritance and then you put that in a joint bank account, that becomes marital. Okay. You have to keep those gifts separate.

35:21In a classroom of sodas, most stay quiet. Then there's Mr. Pibb. Sweet cherry, bold outbursts, the kind of flavor that gets attention. Bold kick of cherry.

35:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Hey, yo, Mr. Pibb. Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney+. Let's go. Get ready for a new case. We're the greatest partners of all time. New friends. Gary Death Snake. And your last name? Death Snake. Dream Team. New habitats. Zootopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record-breaking phenomenon at home. Zootopia 2, now available on Disney Plus Rated PG. And right now you can get Disney Plus and Hulu for just$4.99 a month for three months with a special limited time offer ends March 24th. After three months, plan auto renews and$12.99 a month terms apply. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

36:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver:listening to this podcast smart move being financially savvy smart move another smart move having state farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling just another way to save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor state farm is there prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state so are you still doing family law too so all of it let's let's get into that because so many of us at this age and it is increasing the stress in our lives and maybe contributing to some of turmoil around you know ending relationships is this aging parents and elder care again not really speaking about my own marriage too much but i'm i know that sort of all the tough stuff that we had to go through once was just too much for us to bear and that really impacted the state of our marriage, the loss of parents, I changed to our finances.

37:06There was a lot at once that had happened. And then, as you know, then my daughter had a health crisis. She's thankfully, you know, I knock on everything because nothing else really matters. Being in the sandwich generation is tough. It's tough. You're watching your parents struggle. There's loss. I mean, my sister and I and my brother, I'll say the three of us are incredibly close and that's a gift. My parents did that really right. But I'm watching my friends now all lose their parents. And I don't wish it on anybody. But I say to my sister all the time, like, at least we're done with that. Like, at least that part is done.

37:40Now, I miss my parents every freaking day. Like, my mother, if she saw me now, would be over the moon. I mean, she'd feel terrible about the marriage stuff. But if she could see my kids and see me getting up every day and putting on a suit, she'd be tickled. Like, she'd just love the whole thing. I feel like at least that's done because it was so hard. I took care of both my parents. My sister and I took care of our parents, both of them. And it's not for the faint of heart, as you know, because you're a doctor. I know more medical stuff than I should for not being a doctor. And that's what I had.

38:14You know, that's what I was with both my parents when they died, leading up to when they died, calling, you know, doing all the things. And it's just awful. And it takes a toll because you go back to the dry vagina. Like, who wants to be frisky when they're, like, changing a parent's diaper, essentially? What this is? It's a total, you know, it messes with every ounce of you. It's hard to feel good when there's so much trauma swirling around you.

38:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver:What I'm finding is there's not hard conversations happening with how is this going to go down? What do you want, mom and dad? What do you expect of me? And then one partner is being pulled to do X and Y. And it's always an emergency and last minute to go put out fires for the parents and the kid. You know, and so I think knowing we're going into sandwich generations is having those conversations and really having the tough conversations with your partner and with your parents. What do you want? How do you want this to happen? Sometimes parents don't want to do that. I think the generation in front of us, like before, we're similar age, right?

39:19Yeah.

39:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So we're Gen X. Yeah. So our parents are boomers. Right. And they did not want those conversations. They might neither of my parents. I mean, my mother had pancreatic cancers that kind of came in like a like a wrecking ball. And then my father was wholly unprepared to die because he just didn't think it would happen. It was like he just didn't want to deal with it. Our generation. And you know this and you know this from your training also. Like they didn't deal with mental health. They didn't. Our parents. My parents cared that I was breathing. Yeah. I didn't really matter. If I wasn't pregnant or in jail, my parents were like, correct.

39:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Okay. They're winning. Right. That's right. I didn't care if I went to college or where I went or what my grades were. I went to medical school. I didn't pay for any of that. It wasn't, that wasn't what mattered to them. They weren't checking in on what was going on up here or in our hearts. Right. Not in trouble and alive. Like my parents wanted me alive. So it's a whole different kind of, that's how they were, how they were wired. And then we come out and now we're like dealing with that because there's so many feelings that now evolve because you can't suppress feelings no matter how hard you try.

40:22And then the next generation, it's like, we're like, are you OK? Are you OK in this way and that way and all the ways? And it's just a different animal. But I think those conversations are really important to have.

40:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So is the inheritance ruled state to state? It's state to state. OK. Yeah. Because we are about to undergo, we are undergoing the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of the world to women. as we're surviving longer and you're inheriting it from your parents or from your spouse. Now, from a philanthropic end, I think it's going to do wonders for how we fund research and women's health and all that. So I'm super excited about it. But I want to talk about protection. So she inherits money from her parents. She inherits it. So she needs to keep that in a separate bank account. What is a trust?

41:05So a trust is something else. That's also a way to protect it. So if you if you have a trust and it's just your name and there's rules in the trust, the trusts are very hard to break. And those are on a case by case basis. And they're very specific. And you go to a trust expert to do that. I'm not a trust expert, but I can tell you from a legal standpoint in New York. And yes, it is state to state. And you should check out your state's laws and their ways to do this. And don't rely on chat GPT. OK, do not because it's not always accurate and people get in trouble thinking that it is. Speak to a lawyer.

41:39but if you do get a gift of money or an inheritance, you keep it separate in the absence of a trust. You keep it separate in a separate bank account because if you mix it, it is no longer separate. That's, it's the mixing. You cannot mix it. So it's okay to set that boundary with your partner. Also, that's why prenups can be a good idea and even post-nuptial agreements. I had a client recently - Oh, what's a post-nup? I had a client recently who, it's a similar kind of story, had gotten an inheritance and her father is still alive. You gave her a gift and he said, I'm giving you this gift under the condition that you get a postnuptial agreement that this gift is protected so that in the event you get divorced, this gift will not go to your spouse.

42:22And so we wrote up a postnuptial agreement, which just says this has changed within the marriage. This is what the this is what our financial status is now. And this is how the assets would be divided. Should we get divorced or should we separate? Yeah, it's fascinating. It's not divorced and it's not a prenup. It's after the marriage, post-nope.

42:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver:I didn't even know those existed. Exist, yeah. Yeah. How common are they? They're pretty common now. When there's a change. When there's a big financial change. Okay. That makes sense. So let's move on to rebuilding. Sure. Moving on. She's gone through the divorce. Yes. How do you see women rebuilding their identity, especially if they were in long marriages? So typically the great divorce is after the kids are raised. Yeah. When I got separated, it took me probably a year to feel like I could say the word separated and or that I was separated and that and it took me a year, maybe more to feel like I could even be out and about.

43:23I felt so strange. I was so used to my husband, my husband, my husband. So standing on my own two feet sort of spiritually felt very weird and jolting and frankly creepy. I didn't understand it. Like my brain couldn't, because that was not my plan. How long was your marriage? God, 26 years, 27 years. I'm still technically married because I'm not yet divorced. But then I realized that, again, I have this one life. And I found community on my terms, how I want to live. And I think community is really important. Finding people with whom you feel good, whether they're married, whether they're not, whether you want a date or you don't, just finding your peace and your happiness and your people.

44:11And some might be the people you've always had in your life and some might not. And that's okay.

44:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver:We've lost some couples to divorce in our friend group. You know, we all raise kids together, right? And I think it's a very common story. And a lot of our listeners will identify with this. And our priorities are changing. The kids are grown. They've all gone off to college. And I love these people. We still see them from time to time, but our lives are different. My job is different. My travel schedule is different, you know, and our kids are no longer forcing us to. That's right. You know, football games and basketball games and prom and all those things aren't making us, you know, have a connection.

44:46It's sad, but it's also kind of fun. Oh, I felt a relief when I didn't have to go to the games and the parties and the, like. Well, college parties were fun.

44:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Your kids are a little older than mine. We've got one left in college. I'm going to mourn a little bit not going to the big SEC football games. So you're more fun than I am. Having two kids that went to SEC was super fun, I have to say, for parent weekends. I will say that women who go through gray divorce and women, whether they wanted the divorce, they didn't want the divorce. It's always hard. And it's always a bit of a death because it's a loss. It's a loss of what you thought would be regardless of reason. And women, and you know this, tend to isolate when they feel shame. and I had that, that feeling of like, you know, when you think about a cat or a dog that goes to die in a corner, I just wanted to hide and I didn't want to let the people who love me, love me.

45:40And I didn't want to let the people who wanted so much to care for me, care for me until I realized I was only hurting myself more. And you got to let people take care of you and help you and love you when you need them to, even if you don't always recognize that you need them to. You can't let shame get in the way of your healing. I think that's what it is. Because if you get stuck in that shame spiral, then you're just going to stay there. You have to be sad, be scared, be vulnerable, and do all the things anyway. Put one foot in front of the other. I always give the advice, just wake up in the morning, get through the day, and go to sleep at night.

46:19Start that. Start with just the goal of getting through the day. And little by little, you'll start to heal. It does happen. I mean, time is sort of the best tincture. like time will get you there, but it's incredibly, it can be incredibly isolating and incredibly painful.

46:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Do you see your clients' lives though do change for the better? Yes, I will say in my own case, like I have the greatest group of friends. For the most part, the same friends I always did. The couples, the wives, everyone. I have my people and my girls and I am so lucky and my siblings And my kids, I mean, my kids are just my kids. But yes, my clients, I see this shift along the way where at first things are really bad and it's a lot of, it's gonna be okay because I know it is. And sort of making sure that they are really figuring out what it is that they need and being motivated by actual things that matter and not anger.

47:16Because that whole thing you see on TV, like I'm gonna kill him or I'm gonna this or I'm gonna.

47:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Yeah, it's always this very over-dramatized. Not really. You know, and it's, you know, woman who's hysterical and, you know, the trope. There's time for history. Of the angry middle-aged woman. There are angry men too. Like I've dealt, I have dealt with both. The women who are, feel like they've been wronged and the men who feel like they've been wronged. And, you know, there's always his, hers, and then the truth. Like everybody has a side and that's where you figure out the compromise. But as I said before, like you can't lead with emotion. You have to lead with clear thinking. And so I sort of help them there.

47:53But after the hysteria, a few months in, there does sort of set in this common understanding that you will get through this. And the other side of it is really peaceful. Like, it's really nice for women to, after years and years of cooking and cleaning and sort of living on a schedule dictated by everybody else, to know if you want Oreos for dinner. I know it's not on your plan. But if you want Oreos for dinner, that you can have Oreos for dinner and nobody's going to say a thing. Girl dinner. Yeah, girl dinner. And if you want to exercise at eight o 'clock at night, nobody's going to complain that you're not in the bed yet watching a movie.

48:27Like there's something really freeing.

48:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver:I see that with my patients, this incredible piece around building the life just built for them. It's so fun. They've never done it in 25 years. Ever. And they're like, I do what I want, when I want, how I want. I wear what I want. Yes. I don't care. Yes. And I freaking love it. It's amazing. And because we're at the point where, for the most part, we've done the things, we've had the children, we've had that life, that there's no desperation to mate. There might be a want to have companionship or to date or to have sex or not or whatever, but there's not that thing that we had in our 20s like, oh, I got to get married.

49:09I got to make babies. I got to do that thing, which is biological. I mean, we have to do that. We're you know, it's our species. It matters. But like now, if it's not going to be great, I don't want it. I don't want to go out with somebody who's, you know, mid. Yeah.

49:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Awesome. So you spent two decades, you know, having conversations. Best trainer I could have had. Yeah. I mean, do you feel that really set you up for success? Totally. Yes. Because I've heard every story. I've learned that really valuable lesson that we're pretty much all the same. We all feel pain. Sadly, that impacts us often more than joy and it should be the other way around. We are different characters, different stories, but at the end of the day, the human condition is what it is. So there's something incredibly freeing about seeing that. And also like as bad as you feel and you think it's just you, it's usually not.

50:03That's the other thing. Like we feel weird. We feel shame. We feel like losers. So does everybody else, which then means like none of us really should feel any of that.

50:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So a lot of women will stay in an unhappy marriage, unsatisfying marriage because they're scared. What would you say to her? As I said before, I'm pro-marriage and pro-love. And I do say to my clients, are you sure this is what you want to do? I don't push anybody into divorce because divorce is hard and it's a big shift and a big change. And I would rather theoretically till death do you part. I do come from that model. But if it's not right, it's not right. And there are steps that you could take to get out. there are remedies in, again, in New York, there's family court. There are, you could get orders protection if you're scared.

50:50If you're afraid that you won't have money there, you get court orders so that you are supported. There are remedies, but you have to do it by using the legal system. You have to exercise your rights. And unless you seek counsel or somebody who knows, you might not know what rights to have. Counseling meaning a lawyer. Yeah. How do you feel about marriage counseling?

51:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Have you seen it work? It's great. I'm not sure. And I, you know, I'm not sure. I think if it works, it works. But I don't know that it's a... And don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it doesn't work because you can't work through your issues. Yeah. I think you can. I think every couple has issues. But you're either going to be the couple that stays in the issues and stays married or not. I do think there's a very fine line between couples who make it and couples who don't. For some of my friends, I feel like therapy made them realize they need to go. Well, sometimes that happens too. You know, it gave them more clarity.

51:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Sometimes that happens. around this isn't going to work or I'm just not going to, I'm not going to do this for another 10, 15 years. I think that very often, even when the catalyst wasn't what somebody wanted, on the other side, even the spouse who's been harmed or whatever will ultimately feel better for the most part. Because the catalyst really is usually just a catalyst. Now, I'm not saying that the person who does wrong or violates the marriage contract or does things they shouldn't do isn't a jerk. Sure. But it's rare instances that it's just somebody who's a jerk. Black or white. Correct.

52:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Right. Yeah. You're so funny and used humor to talk about really hard parts of life. Yeah. Weight. Yeah. Everything. Divorce, your daughter's illness, you know, all the tough things that you've been through. How do you keep that humor going? So I don't know. I think I was raised that if you can't find the funny, then what's the point of living? Because what are we supposed to just be at a ball in our bed? I mean, that might be nice, but you've got to be able to get out and deal. And humor is a coping skill. And it changes your chemistry and your brain chemistry, like exercise, like moving. When we laugh, we feel better.

52:56So find a way to get the laughter. And I mean, my daughter had a heart attack at 24 years old. That came out of nowhere, made no sense. There was zero risk. She had every tox screen. I mean, there was no reason for this. at SCAD. Do you know about SCAD? Spontaneous coronary arterial dyslexia. We still don't even fully get that at SCAD. She doesn't have FMD. I mean, it's all so crazy. And at the time, I mean, she was extraordinary. She was so funny in her hospital bed, the whole thing. And we just laughed our way through this awful, awful time. We still laugh about it because it makes no sense.

53:30And sometimes it's the only way you can kind of wrap your head around something is to laugh. I mean, the amount of times I left when my parents were dying, my sister and I would crack up. The absurdity of life. I mean, it is absurd. Think about the things we do. Think about the trouble we have. Think about the great stuff. Most of it is pretty freaking absurd. So if you can't find the funny in it, I don't know. What's the point?

53:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Yeah. I'm so, so, so glad our listeners are going to love this because this topic always blows up. Yeah. Not just the dry vagina. That's the takeaway. And that was the conversation I had this morning with another, with a menopause expert. What are the top key things that you want listeners to take away from this conversation? This is a thing I always told my kids growing up, that there's no problem that can't be managed. Not everything can be fixed. I get it. But you can manage everything. We can get through everything. There's always an option to be okay. You will be okay. I know it's trite and it's so cliche to say you're not alone, but you're really not.

54:29I promise you, the thing that you're going through that you think it's only you, yes, for you, it is the worst thing ever, but someone else has gone through it too. And there's, again, beauty in that because it's community. And that's really helpful, like just to know that you're not the only one suffering. So menopause, and you're almost there, I promise. I need to be there. I know. It's good that my ovaries still work, but it's time. I'm done.

54:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Menopause often feels like society wants us to hit pause, but you are not hitting pause. Oh, no, not at all. I'm having the best time. Like I am so much happier now than I was at 30. Like I don't want to be 30. Did you ever imagine you'd be doing this? No, I didn't. I definitely did not expect my life to be where it is today for better or for worse. But I'm good. It's like that weevils wobble, but we don't fall down. Like I just, I keep going and I, like I love life. I've always had that optimism in me, even when things are really, really rough. How do you find a good divorce attorney? Not everybody can go to New York and come find you.

55:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver:No, no. But I mean, there's family law resources online that you can look up different lawyers. Then you meet them. You have to meet with lawyers. Oh, this is key. And I did a reel about this a while ago. If you meet with a divorce lawyer, then your spouse can't. So go and have - I've heard that. Many consults because you can sort of do that. But yeah, and word of mouth is really helpful. It's not always Google reviews. Sometimes I guess it, but word of mouth. Talk to people. Names float around. people kind of know and ask, ask questions. Awesome. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.

56:01I love that we get to sit together. I know. She is so cute in person. Let me tell you, it's not smoke and mirrors. Like Dr. Mary Claire actually is that cute.

56:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver:As a reminder to our audience, you can follow Jenny on Instagram at just Jenny Hutt. She is also on TikTok at Jenny Hutt, and you can reach out to Jenny for a complimentary consultation at Jenny at Lawjaw.com. I would love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Mary Claire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness and navigating midlife at thepawslife.com. My upcoming book, The New Perimenopause is available for pre-order on Amazon. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode.

56:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver:While you're there, leave us a review and be sure to share the show with the women you love. We would be so grateful. You can also find full episodes on YouTube at Dr. Mary Claire. Unpaused is presented by Odyssey in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on Unpaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice diagnosis, or treatment.