The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause

24:30Whatever I'm taking. And I got on my journey and it got to the point where we were able to see the funny in it. And that is sort of what we do is that we get to look around at our lives and say like, is that funny? and when you zoom out and you're out of crisis, and I was out of crisis at that point, I'm like, it is kind of funny what we're going through here. And anybody my age is probably going through this in their marriage because it becomes a family issue at that point.

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28:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So tell me your side of this. She did not conceal any of this, I don't believe. I think that we, I think that, I think we talked about it pretty openly. I think part of me was trying to help her diagnose because there's, you know, there is a lot of like questionable, like what's going on. So just medically, you'd had some pretty intense menstruations throughout most of your life to the point that you thought you might have endometriosis where now it's endometosis or whatever. Adnomyosis. I've adnomyosis. And so - The endometriosis is the evil twin. Yeah. Right. So I had been trained with some moments that you even said - Shit's going down.

28:47This is happening right now. This is really heavy. Like I'm feeling - To the point where he's like, it was Shark Week. Like it was - Sure, I know when Shark Week was. Like I get that. I will say that like, as this is all happening, you know, like, as a man who wants to feel connected and to feel intimacy, like, that's gonna ebb when this happens. And so I felt like I could be useful and helpful, but also lonely because I can't super relate to what she's doing. And I've got to give her more space than I'd like to. I think that's, like, stuff that it's all passed and gotten a lot easier. And I've learned that, like, intimacy means something different from when you're 20, and it's just boom, boom, boom all the time.

29:26That's exactly how we did it, guys. Yeah. But like, all of that was hard. And I like, actually feel for men who say the same thing. Because I think that there's shame that comes with it. And that limits communication and intimacy. And there's also just like, fear. Like, is this what it is, what she is, what we are?

29:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver:What would be your advice? I mean, there's guys listening going, okay, bro, you know, you're the only dude talking about this on the internet. So let's, you know. I think finding new connection points, like, this is a really good opportunity to do that. I think that our Disney Prince nature of wanting to like sweep someone off their feet and be the solution, this is going to be the time that you learn that that's not what you do. This is where you listen and you empathize and you're there for her in ways that you're not normally there for people. And like that's really strengthened our relationship.

30:18I think me learning that. Also, I got a really good piece of advice. We had this guy on who does like, he's a guy who's on TikTok talking to other husbands about perimenopause.

30:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Oh, I think I know who that is. He's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he said something about intimacy. I'm not just talking about sex, like intimacy and connection. That like, it really only works when the woman is relaxed. For guys, we could be skydiving. Yeah, that's a good point. And everything's going to work. But imagine all the things that's going on in their body and understand how impossibly difficult it is to just be relaxed. And so that was a really cool piece of advice to me as well. Because I was feeling that. Do you feel like this was the hardest season of your marriage? I do believe, for Penn, his love language is physical touch.

31:09And when I was in my feelings, I did not want to be touched at all. And so I had to communicate to him, this has nothing to do with my love for you. I love you so much. Because when he sees me in panic, in crisis, he wants to... And there are moments, I love that. There are moments I want, like, just wrap me up and hug me. But you're usually like three to six feet. Yeah. You're like COVID. You're like that sort of amount of... I'm like, I want you here, but I don't want you touching me. Right, exactly. And once he sort of realized that that's the way I could operate, I will say our relationship is deeper and better.

31:52I think we're closer now than we have been. But yeah, there were some bumps in the road because it's hard not to take it personally, right? Because you do go from having a very nice regular sex life to, you know what? I just can't be touched right now. Or any sort of, not just having sex, but any sort of that intimate feeling when you have true connection with your partner. Because sometimes I just needed to be alone. And I think he got it quickly and he learned not to take it personally. But yeah, it's hard not to take it personally. So here's the toughest part. Like, she's been incredibly communicative about it.

32:28And I believe her. Like, I don't think... The first instinct you get when something like this happens is it's me, right? Every guy, they get that. And the next instinct, which you don't want, as somebody else? Like, is there something else that would make her happy? Right, right. Does she maybe want to be with women? Like, you know, that's... I mean, sometimes. Right, why not? I've been on that side of TikTok. Women are awesome. And so, like, I'm completely at peace with trust and totally understand that she's saying what she believes, but then my subconscious has no control over that. So I have, like, crazy dreams, like, from time to time, and I can't do anything about that.

33:01But for men, that, I would guess, is the biggest challenge. And there are a lot of men out there, and Penn hears from them, that do not believe whatever is happening here. Yeah, that's a whole different thing. And that's a divorce waiting to happen. And that's a different podcast, but there are some men that have walked up to me like, yeah, that menopause stuff, right? Like, she's full of it. Stuff like that. And Penn is a good ally, ladies, because he will say, actually, and he'll throw some science at them. Do you feel like you're on the other side now? Of what?

33:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver:I guess we're never going to get to the other side. So I didn't know I was going through perimenopause when I was going through it. Like we learned how to pronounce it in medical school and residency. And like, it's a transition. I'm still having periods. I don't know, but like, I couldn't stand for him to hold my hand. I was aggravated with everything. And it was an inflection point in a lot of things. Our parents were starting to get old and need us more. Kids were becoming teenagers. Like many of us in this stage, there was all of this other stuff. And then my resilience wall was coming down.

34:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver:You know, my brother was dying. And I do feel like now, now we're totally empty nested. Okay. And he's retired from his job. He's now helping me in our business. You know, I just feel like we're lifers now. You know, but it was in that perimenopause time and figuring it all out that I felt like that was the furthest apart we were in those times where I was like, are we going to make it? Got it. Like, am I better off not in this relationship? That did bubble up a few times. I do believe we are on the other side of whatever that was. I still very much am aware of what's happening. I'm very peri right now.

34:46Like, very perimenopausal. I am medically really, like, tapping my foot waiting for actual menopause. Because I'm hoping that...

34:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver:It's coming, I promise. I know. So you guys want it to come? It's, it's, like... As a clinician, it's treating a woman in perimenopause. Yeah. It's like pinning the tail on a moving donkey. Right. And, you know, you get that tail on, the donkey goes over here, and then you got to switch this and whatever. Like, once they're postmenopausal, it is so much easier for me as a doctor. Is there, like, how do you know? Is there a... A blood test. Like, you know, medically... The body cannon goes off outside your vagina. Yeah. The cannon, the close for business sign goes up. And that's good. So as far as what's going on hormonally, you flatline.

35:33Dr. Mary Claire Haver:And that's like easier to resuscitate. So blood tests. So blood tests and listening to symptoms. But, you know, the brain stuff calms down a lot. So my patients who like their main complaint was the mental health or cognitive stuff. That is much easier to kind of manage in postmenopausal. And then the bleeding stops, you know. And so the... Okay, so it's just your period. Stop getting your period. Right. That's the... And that coincides with subsiding some of these wonderful traits that, like, love you, but things that you don't like very much. Oh, yeah. Right. And so, you know, once we kind of put out the fire, the management and stuff, you know, once women are postmenopausal, we're focusing on the next 30 years.

36:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Like, at that point, her whole focus shifts to keep me out of a nursing home. You know, like, I got, yeah, look, I don't want to break. I don't want to lose my independence. So like, and I know I have a wonderful opportunity here to set myself up for success for the next 30 years. So that's like the funnest part of my job. The most difficult part is helping her manage perimenopause. Got it. Which wasn't even a thing. Like, that was not a thing. We couldn't treat a menopausal patient until she was a year past her last period. So we just let her like wing it. I feel so sorry for my mom and people in my mom's generation because they were told to get off estrogen and freaking deal with it.

36:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver:My mother was sedated. Like, I remember the Butasol pills, you know, that I had to go get when she was having a moment of crisis. And so, you know, I'd go get her little pills of Butasol and, like, go bring them to her. And, you know, it was probably a placebo effect because, like, she'd take one and immediately everything was better. So, you know, I was in medical school and that memory bubbled up because we were in pharmacology. And I was like, what? What? This is something they gave for seizures. Like, yeah, Butalbatol. It is a cousin of phenobarbital. I mean, and if I weren't on all the medicine I'm on right now, I would say give it to me.

37:30Is there like a connection between like how strong someone's menopausal symptoms are with like how much empathy they're feeling in the world around them? Like how much?

37:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver:You know, no one's looked at that. What we know is if you had a really rough postpartum, like if you had postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, any of that stuff, you are a ringer for having a rougher menopause. The healthier you are, now I hate to say this because I have triathletes who just get gobsmacked through the menopause transition. But it tends to be the healthier your diet, the more you exercise, the more your symptoms will be worse. But I mean, you know what? Throw that out the window. It is what it is. But I don't think anyone yet is looking at, if you're a more empathetic person, then all of a sudden your resilience, they pull out the carpet from under your feet.

38:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Like if you're going to suffer worse. Menopause, we have estrogen receptors, progesterone, antistastone receptors everywhere in our body. So someone's top priorities might be her joint pain. She is not functional, you know, but her mental health is fine. You know, it is such a cornucopia of like how this might hit you. so what i've learned through just taking care of menopause now is like what are your goals yeah for you it was mental health it sounds like yeah like you know you're an athlete you're you're yeah that's not an issue for you like physically i mean besides wild periods there's not yeah for some it's like i can't be bleeding through a meeting right you know and changing a diaper you know with the bleeding or anemia yeah like i'm 15 of us won't have hot flashes so So, you know, just your thermoregulatory center is fine in the brain.

39:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver:But, you know, we see across, historically, across the menopause transition, we double the amount of women who need an SSRI. And what we're learning now is we probably should start them early, soon, and often on estrogen, progesterone, whatever combination to stabilize mental health. And they may need something, an SSRI or SNRI, you know, one of the antidepressant, anti-anxiety meds still. But we probably were over-treating with some of these meds. when really what they needed was estrogen, you know, or some hormone support. I believe it. I had really wild postpartum anxiety, depression, and then that's when I first got diagnosed with OCD.

39:58I'm probably glad I didn't know that a wild postpartum experience would have made, because I think I would have been anxious about that.

40:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Well, we've ripped the Band-Aid off and now we're telling the world. Sorry. Sorry, guys. Talk to me some more about that, because I had remembered... In medicine, back when I... This was when the Andrea Yates thing happened, and it was right by where we were training. So she was in Clear Lake, 20 miles from Galveston. Do you remember this? Andrea Yates drowned her children. She had postpartum hallucinations. And she heard voices telling her to drown her children. Anyway, so, like, it was that or you were fine. I was not taught anything in between. We had screening. Like, we didn't want to miss the woman who was going to hallucinate and, like, destroy her family, you know.

40:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So we were screening for, like, the most severe symptoms. Really, it was like, you'll be okay. This will pass, you know. Yeah. So I remember having intrusive thoughts with Catherine, my oldest, of her drowning. She's in a carrier. She can't, like, swim, you know. We're not near a pool. She's fine. Yeah. I remember being, like, at my six-week appointment, I was asked, like, are you, do you have visions of hurting your children? And, like, oh, God, no. Like, that wasn't it. That's how we were screaming. Are you thinking about hurting yourself or someone else? Okay, no, check, move on. Move on. And it was actually our pediatrician.

41:22I think it was, like, a 12-week appointment or something with my son. And Penn was there. And I was having trouble nursing. And I wasn't sleeping. And, like, there was just so much going on. And the doctor came in with like a can of formula. And it was like, you need to take care of yourself. You are there. And looked at him like, she needs to get some help. Because I was just like, he wasn't gaining weight. And it was this whole, and I was just could not handle it. And the doctor asked, how are you doing? And he was there because I couldn't drive. Because I was so afraid. I had visions of a semi-truck hitting our car.

41:58I couldn't walk downstairs holding him because I would like sit on my butt and scoot down because I would never hurt my, I had visions of the opposite. So it wasn't until the pediatrician flagged it. And then he drove me to a psychiatrist. Should there be a better way to ask that question in the screening?

42:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Yeah. I mean, it's probably better now, but you know, the way we were, this happened, we had no screening before, right? We knew about postpartum depression, but like, you know, and it's so shameful. Like, the patients were so reluctant. I remember, like, people bringing in their, like, husband coming with the wife and, like, she's not okay. But you didn't want to be the Andrea Yates. You didn't want to be thought of, like, I could hurt my kids. Because, you know, it would just be crazy. Right. School of medicine. And that's, like, when mommy bloggers were, like, a thing. And it was, like, 2008, 2009.

42:53And I was desperately seeking a voice that was saying, like, this is really hard. Yeah. And I think women were afraid to say it was hard because they didn't want to be thinking like, oh, I'm gonna go hurt my kid. And it sounds unnatural. It sounds incriminating. Right. Especially if you ask it that way. Maybe something like, were you really surprised to get this thought that you quickly pushed away, but it's not what you really believe in? Yeah. That's probably a more accurate thing. Or the best of the doctor was like, you know, I had this thought when I was having my baby. Because, again, empathy is this way.

43:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Making you feel, normalize it. Empathy is how this movement is growing. Yeah. It's you guys sharing your stories and feeling not broken, not alone. And like there's a way to get out of it. I think that's the internet, good and bad, as we've all learned. It's allowed the sharing of experiences that were kept hidden before and people going, oh, that's me. Yeah. You know, I feel seen. Right.

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46:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver:So you got diagnosed with ADHD. Yes. As an adult. Yeah. Not as a kid. I was 21. How? College? Oh, Hal, do you want to know what happened? Yeah. So I, first of all, I was on academic probation twice in college. On purpose? He had an awesome time in college, you guys. I had the ability to go to classes more than I actually did. But no, I mean, my Ritalin was my mom growing up. But way before anyone knew what ADHD even was, she helped regulate my emotions. And she helped me get my homework done. She like knew that I was smart, but that I needed some self-starting skills, which she tried to instill in me.

47:06And then when that didn't happen, she just kind of said, here, come on, I'm going to hold your hand and do this with you. And so I was getting some bad grades in college, but I still was having an awesome time. I was at my grandmother's funeral in between my junior and senior year. And she was like the first time I had no grandparents on one side of my family. So there was this big beach trip that our family took for two weeks. And it was the most important week of the year for two weeks of the year for me because I really felt at home. And I think everyone had ADHD there. probably. We all got along great.

47:36And so the family was having this talk about what we were going to do next in this room in Tarboro, North Carolina. And I started daydreaming about all the great times we'd had and like, what are we going to do now? And all of a sudden my aunt Zell, she says, Penn, I'm sorry, none of us can concentrate because you're chewing on a used fly swatter. So I picked up a fly swatter in East, there's a lot of flies in Eastern Carolina in the summer. And I, while I was thinking, I put it in my mouth and I started chewing on it with no idea that I was doing it whatsoever. But it was like, whatever, that was a fidget for me, right?

48:07And that was gross, and everyone laughed. I did not laugh. I felt like I went from, you know, you're a space cadet, you're an adorable space cadet, to is there something fundamentally wrong with me? So I drove myself to a doctor, and he diagnosed me very quickly.

48:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver:And did you even know that was a thing? Yes, I had heard of it before. Okay. Did you feel like an alien? Before or after? I guess both. I felt like an alien most of my childhood. Okay. I mean, I would chew on my shirt to the point that there was a saliva circle that went all the way around here. I had a lot of, like, acquaintances, but not a lot of close friends because I did not know how to let people finish their story without jumping in. I had wild creativity and understanding of music that most of my friends didn't have. But when I was asked to take piano in a recital and sit and look at music, I couldn't read the music and didn't want to read the music.

49:08I just wanted to hear the sounds and just reproduce them. So like in some ways, good alien, but in a lot of ways, just kind of bad alien. The most important thing was I cried all the time. Like if something didn't go my way, it flooded me emotionally. And it went on way, way later than most kids. Like it happened to me in high school sometimes. So that was probably, in the playground society that I lived in, probably the most alien that I felt.

49:33Dr. Mary Claire Haver:And then after you got the diagnosis, you felt you had a name. Yeah, but no one explained the emotional side of ADHD in the 90s. And I think they're just barely doing it now. I just felt like it was like all in reference to how you were doing scholastically. Right. That was the measure of... It's not how you see the world or this was we need you to do well in school. That's why I did it. And they gave me drugs. I took them. They gave me something called dexedrine, which apparently is like meth. A diet path. Yeah. You can cook it. So I was on meth my senior year and I got better grades. Yeah. This is amazing.

50:06They gave me no behavioral interventions or systems or anything. Understandably, like this was, it was a medical model. They looked at a problem and they tried to fix it. And so it actually took quite a while to realize, A, that the medicine personally was stunting my creativity and all the music that I heard in my head, I didn't hear it anymore. And then much later, after I'd found a job that actually worked for ADHD, which is, if you're watching us on any device, most of us have ADHD because it just is conducive. But much later, a lot like a woman who starts getting overtaxed with a family and a job, stuff started falling through the cracks for me in my mid-40s.

50:54And that's when we started working on the book.

50:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver:How's the book going? And you guys have a new book, right? We do. The book is growing great. It continues to just sell. People are interested in it. And we didn't expect it. And the book is? Oh, sorry. It's called ADHD is Awesome. And we have a children's book. Yep. And we have a new children's book this year, too. I know. We're writing a bunch of books about ADHD, which wasn't the direction we thought we were going to go in. But much like you, we thought we had a hopeful, positive message around it. And do ADHD and menopause have so much in common? Look. And I'm not even talking clinically. Like, they both need to be destigmatized.

51:30They're both underdiagnosed. They're, in a lot of times, not perfectly understood by healthcare and by doctors.

51:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Yeah. Right? There's deniers out there who say it's not a thing. You're just complaining. And then on top of that, apparently, menopause gives you ADHD. Makes you feel like it. Or makes you feel like you've got ADHD. Unmasked is the term we're using now. Yeah, sorry. So, you know, your resilience drops, your coping skills drop, your whatever. And you, you know, it's a spectrum, right? I'm on the other end of it where I can hyper-focus and shut the whole world out. And that's great when you're a doctor and studying for medical school. It's horrible when you have children who are like, mom, mom, mom, mom.

52:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver:And you're so focused on what you're doing. But it's exploding right now, the conversation around changes in cognition and attention and focus in the menopause transition. And so what have you guys seen on your social media? It's really complicated because women are underdiagnosed with ADHD, like way more so than men. It took, like my kids both have it. Right, yeah. And it's because y 'all are tougher than us. You're better at internalizing your difficulties. So when you're a kid, the time that it's most often diagnosed, it's masked. My kids were well-behaved. It's masked because you - They were pleasantly staring out the window, not causing any distractions.

52:50We're loud and we're doing karate in the middle of church. And so like we get diagnosed. and then for women, they become women, they become moms, they have to do sign-up genius and that's like the low-key kryptonite for ADHD and for some reason, like every time I'm on sign-up genius, I'm the only dude who's on there but I think those executive functioning challenges really happen when you become a working parent or even a parent, right? And so then they're getting diagnosed at a later age Yeah. Kind of close to perimenopause. I think those waters are muddied. For us, that book was written largely for parents who have kids with ADHD and for maybe teenagers or 21-year-old young adults who've been diagnosed.

53:37And so the parents are reading it and going, Whoa. Wait a second. So many people. We had a girlfriend and she's 50. She read it just because she was being supportive of us. And she's like, holy shit, Penn. I think I have ADHD. And she went and she did the full diagnosis with a psychiatrist. She did everything. She goes, my childhood makes so much more sense. And a lot of women are being diagnosed when their kids get diagnosed because they're filling out the questionnaire going, holy crap, that's me. That's not normal. And I think it's such a relief for women just to have a name for it. Right. And you could be gentler on your nine-year-old self.

54:17Right. Like looking back. We love being part of the conversation on ADHD. And finally, finally, there are studies being done on women and girls now. Because all the other ADHD studies, it was mostly male participants. This is all of medicine. And all of medicine. Unless you're pregnant. And that was Duke University. They have a women's center for ADHD. So awesome. But you know what? Medical studies, the good ones, take a long time. So we would love to get a megaphone and talk more about women with ADHD, but the studies are just lagging. What we do know is that genetically, women are just as likely to have ADHD, but they're chronically underdiagnosed.

55:03And we've been, you know, we get to go to these book signings and we meet, we met so many people. and the moms that come and hug Penn for their kids to be seen. But they have tears in their eyes because they just got diagnosed. But then they'll put the audio bug on. The husbands will listen to it and just be gentler. And I think once there's like an understanding, because when there's the mom who's ADHD and the house is sort of like falling apart, it's really easy to like blame her, you know? And if there's an explanation for it, and if there are systems that could be put in place, Listen, like, when you give a kid or an adult or anybody, whatever the condition is, an understanding of what's going on in their brain, like, they immediately are more likely to want to get to work and try to make it less than an excuse to, like, try to make the world around them bend to its will.

55:58I loved your book because as a parent, as a doctor,

56:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver:I was one of the, not naysayers, but, you know, I really felt like people who would medicate their children, this was a cop out. You just need to love them through this. And then I tried to love my daughter so hard through it and got tutors and a lot of screaming at the table. We went over this question 75 times. You still got it wrong, whatever. And then finally, a couple of her teachers were like, you should go get her tested. And, you know, and my older daughter had had some dysgraphia and, you know, we had gotten her all the stuff. But my youngest had these, this core group of friends she's still best, best friends with.

56:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver:It's the most beautiful relationship. And they were all straight A, perfect, perfect, perfect grades, all the things. And my daughter was always on the struggle bus, you know. That's so hard. And she was growing up with this thought of, I'm not smart. Oh. And we took her to the pediatrician and she said, let's get her tested. And I think you're going to be able to give her a gift. That's a really great way to put it. And I burst into tears. Because all of my prejudice and bias and everything I felt about this diagnosis and me as a failure as a parent, and I didn't love her enough and I didn't provide the right structure or whatever she needed.

57:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver:you know this she's like let's give her a gift how'd it turn out she's fabulous she's perfect her grades shot up immediately which you know that's again another problem parental thing of like if my kids are making good grades i'm a good mom it doesn't equal well-being right yeah and then my older daughter was diagnosed much later she coped and had skills you know whatever until the MCAT. That was her breaking point of, I need some help here because I can't, all these systems I had in place aren't working for me to get through this next level. And then of course she's been on meds through med school and doing great.

58:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver:You know, everything, everything is fine, but like, God, you know, in reading your book, I sobbed because I wish I would have had that as a parent, you know, when they were little and I didn't get it. And I didn't understand, even though I was a doctor and I wasn't a pediatrician, but, you know, it just would have been so much easier for my kids and I would have brought them in sooner and just been a better resource for them. And I mean, listen, we're not against medication at all. Medicine's been great, but there's a lot of things that are just don't require medicine. Yeah. And in our school system, it's like hard to get extra time.

58:34Our kid has ADHD and he has a learning plan. Extra time is like really hard to get. But I'm like, wait, if they if if he can get a hundred on the test, if he has extra time, like why does it what what What job is he going to have to recite all of like pre-calculus in like 30 minutes as opposed to 45? Anyway.

58:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver:It's yeah, that whole timing thing is. It's wild. It's wild. Amazing.

59:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Now it's time for the MIDI pause. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, host of the podcast Unpaused, bringing you a word from MIDI health. Today we're facing the truth. Aging is inevitable. but how you age, that's completely in your hands. This stage of life is not an end. It's an evolution. And with the right strategies, you can reclaim control over your body, your mind, and your future. I call it my menopause toolkit and it starts with six foundational pillars. Nutrition focused on anti-inflammatory foods, protein, and fiber. Movement, especially strength training and daily activity. Protecting your sleep because it is the backbone of your hormonal and cognitive health.

59:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Working with a knowledgeable provider on personalized pharmacology, managing stress through mindfulness, gratitude, and embracing progress over perfection. And finally, community because no one of us should be doing this alone. That's exactly what MidiHealth is built around. Care for women that focuses on maximizing health span and helping you with your menopause toolkit. Living longer, more active lives, not just longer ones. MIDI offers personalized care that leverages evidence-based interventions tailored to your life. It's never too early or too late. Wherever you are in your journey, MIDI Health will meet you there with the solutions you need.

1:00:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Women come to MIDI to address the symptoms they experience every day. MIDI partners with you to find the right treatment, whether that's HRT or a non-hormonal solution, giving special attention to the four areas that matter most as we age, hormone optimization, specialized nutrition, resistance training, and targeted therapies. Progress starts with a personal plan. That's why the Midi approach centers on a holistic combination of solutions from medications to lifestyle changes with a care plan built for your body and your needs. By doing so, MidiHealth is setting a new standard for health care.

1:01:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver:As the nation's fastest growing women's telehealth company, MIDI provides accessible insurance-covered services designed by medical experts. Building on its leadership in perimenopause and menopause, MIDI fills the critical health gaps women face at every age and life stage. If you want a clinician in your corner who truly understands what your body and brain need right now, that's exactly what MIDI is built for. Go to joinmidi.com, join midi.com, and connect with one of their clinicians today.

1:01:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Now you are half empty nesters? Yes. How's that going? You had texted me a few times giving me a heads up. I was not prepared for how sad I was going to be. You told me. But like, until you live it. So my daughter's off to college, my son's at home. I think the lack of estrogen in the house, I felt like, I'm just very aware of how much testosterone there is in my house right now. I'm obsessed with my son. I love my son so much, but when she left, I was very unprepared for how sad I was gonna be. And it's just cruel that this happens during perimenopause. Yeah, that's a lot going on at the same time.

1:02:15It's a lot going on at the same time.

1:02:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver:How do you keep your relationship from turning into a shared Google calendar since you're working together so much? Oh, that is such a funny question. Like, who makes the decisions on what you're gonna do? I know you have managers and all that now, but... We're more, like, the making the content. So that's been really useful. still the question is a good one because it's it's hard to be off sometimes like even when everyone's done you go to work unemployed every single day because whatever it is that you put out is out and then whatever is next is it's it's not like a six month lead time like a movie it's one or two days like what's next and so for that reason we've talked about this like the challenges of going to dinner and like not talking about work.

1:03:02I think we were a lot better about it. I think we are still married because we have Emory, Sam and Desmond who work with us and they take a lot of the just the work part of it out so we can stay married. Yeah. Because when it was just the two of us, it was that was really hard. And it was all we talked about. So now we challenge ourselves like we go out to dinner and we don't talk about like work. But now our next challenge is to go out to dinner and not talk about work or kids. Yeah, that's... What are we going to talk about? Yeah, like... What? I literally bought conversation cards. No, those are great.

1:03:38It was great because I asked a couple questions and it got off of... I'm like, we've been married long enough that I need conversation cards. But it was great. It's like conversation Viagra.

1:03:51No, seriously. Like, it's... It got things going. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. That is hilarious. And it was, it keeps the dinners from spiraling into like, okay, but then he has a basketball game when we get back, but then we have to leave town on Saturday. We did this last night. Yeah.

1:04:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Okay, this is gonna end. Like, he's 16. I know! And then what are you gonna talk about? I mean, so the big things you talk about at dinner are work, kids, extended family, just like other people. Parents, our parents. Whatever. I get, like, if she asks me, I can talk about space and science fiction for six straight hours, but that's a one-sided conversation. Yeah, I actually pulled out my camera because we were having a dinner. It was like, no works, no kids. And then I asked him about... Sure, I'll talk about quantum entanglement. The book he's reading. And he was talking for so long, he didn't even realize I'd taken out my phone and hit record.

1:04:42Because he was just... If you need filler on a podcast, he can come on and talk about space for a really long time. But I try to be interested in it because he's interested in it, but I'm, this is a lot of space to talk about. I know, I know. But it's a good question. But honestly, when she got the conversation things, even like the book of questions, I think everyone who ever like went to a camp where they were like trying to hook up with a girl at a Christian camp, but you wanted to ask him a question, like you probably have like, wait, that was too much information. There's this thing called the book of questions that would like, is a really good way to get to know people better.

1:05:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver:How many girls you hook up with? I was unsuccessful all the time. You guys have got to make your own set of conversation cards for middle-aged, like over the hump? Yes. You know? That's a good idea. We're going to call it Conversation Viagra. I need commission on this. Yeah. Conversation Viagra. Like, you know, for those of us who make it over the hump. Make it over the hump. I mean. And then what are we going to talk about for the next 30 years? Honestly, I'm very excited. We're going to do this. I know. I'm obsessed with my son. I'm going, you're going to have to like peel me off the floor when he goes to college.

1:05:43But I am looking forward to that time in life. All right. Thank you so much for coming on Unpause. Well, I'm very thankful for you and all the work you're doing. And I'm just, it makes me so sad that my mom didn't have a you, you know, way back when. So thanks for what you're doing. And thanks for having us here. And I'm glad to see you haven't lost your phone. Thank you, my hero. Yeah, he's good like that. Well, thanks for having us. All right.

1:06:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver:You can find more information about Kim and Penn's books, podcasts, and social channels at theholdernessfamily.com. You can find full episodes of Unpaused on YouTube at Doctrinary Player. I'd love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Mary Claire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness, and navigating midlife at thepawslife.com. My new book, The New Perimenopause, is available now everywhere you buy books. If you're loving this podcast, I have an important request. Please take a moment to follow Unpaused on your favorite podcast app.

1:06:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Following and listening is what pushes this information to more women who need it. So if this podcast has helped you feel seen, understood, or supported, hit follow right now so you never miss an episode. Thank you for being here with me. Let's keep going Unpaused. Unpaused is presented in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on Unpaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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1:07:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Plus get a free professional measure during the Blinds.com Spring Black Friday Last Chance Sale. Rules and restrictions apply. Perimenopause is not early menopause. It is its own distinct biological phase. And it has been largely ignored. My new book, The New Perimenopause, is about the 7 to 10 years before periods stop. A transition that is anything but gentle. Hormones fluctuate wildly. And for many women, this is when anxiety, brain fog, sleep disruption, weight changes, mood shifts, joint pain, and that unsettling feeling of, I don't feel like myself anymore, begin. Long before anyone says the word menopause.

1:08:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver:Perimenopause often starts quietly. It shows up in the brain first. then the body, then everywhere else. And all too often, women are told nothing is wrong. I wrote the new perimenopause because you deserve answers before things spiral. You deserve care before burnout. And you deserve a clear roadmap for a transition that medicine has ignored for far too long. The new perimenopause is now available everywhere books are sold. Learn more and order your copy at thepawslife.com.