An Interview with Madison McGhee of Ice Cold Case

27:50And I think that you did that beautifully with Snitch-Ass Daddy. So please, can you tell everybody what my new favorite, not new, but what my favorite song in True Crime is? And what motivated you to do that? Please explain what it is, what motivated you to do it? I'm just so excited that I can't properly frame this up for you. I love it. It's like my favorite thing that even I've ever done. And it's so awesome. I just got a message the other day from someone who said it wasn't even about that in particular, but they were really glad that I was doing podcast interviews because they were like, oh, we get to see this like whole other side of you.

28:30My show is scripted and it's very different than me just like rambling and like yapping away all the time. so they were like oh it's so cool to like actually get to know your personality um and like see how you're like grieving in in this like very unique way and snitch ass daddy is like the perfect example of that um in all aspects it's my personality wrapped into a song but it's also this way to like process this thing and and i think kind of going back to your point about oh you just want to make money or be famous or whatever um it's it's this double standard that we have for families which is I don't care if xyz podcaster makes this their full-time job and they make a million dollars and they can buy a home and buy a car and do all of this stuff with the money that they've made off of someone else's story but the moment you do it about yours it's unethical.

29:30That's an interesting thing that you listening to this can chew on for a minute while I tell you the story of Snitchass Daddy. I got a message from my cousin relatively soon after I started putting out the podcast. And she sent me, it was a very long message. And I keep everything. I read every review. I read all your reviews. Just keep that in mind. Every single one. I read every message, every review, every comment. I read it. I let it do what it does. It fuels me or it makes me sad for a minute and then it fuels me. But whatever. I read them all. And my cousin sent me this message. It was insanely long and it was hard to get through because the grammar on this was horrendous.

30:15And she sent me this long thing and part of it was your dad deserved to die because he was a snitch ass daddy. And I am like very vocal on the internet about having depression and anxiety. I struggle with it. I try to make it as light and funny as possible. But like some days it's just really dark. And snitch ass daddy happened to spell sad, which is very on brand for me as just a human, but also like I'm investigating my dad's murder. Of course I'm sad. So it just was like she handed me gold in a Facebook hate message. I mean, it was just like, oh, my God, I don't know what to do with this, but I love it.

30:59I ended up posting the message on my Instagram story just being like, LOL, like this girl is crazy. And my friend who's a music producer was like, oh, my God, like I'd love to put Snitchass Daddy in a song. And I was like, oh, yeah, go for it. That's hilarious. Like whatever. And then I went to sleep and I woke up the next day. And I was like, wait a minute. I want to make a song called Snitch Ass Daddy. So it started as sort of me being like, hey, hey, hey, don't put that in anyone else's song. Like, hold it. I want to make a song. I'm not a musician. I don't sing. I've never made music before.

31:36But I was like, he was like, what? And I was like, just I'm going to make a song. So then I ended up putting Sad on the front of a shirt and Snitch Ass Daddy on the back of a shirt. And then people were like, like, wait, I want one. And it kind of became this thing where I was like, oh, everyone, everyone can have a Snitch-Ass Daddy shirt. So I started selling them and like I gave them to a bunch of friends, put them on my website, whatever. And then I finally got into the studio with my friend and we wrote this song called Snitch-Ass Daddy. And we just pulled lines from messages I've gotten from people.

32:09We've pulled things that people have said about me. I reference people saying that I'm getting rich off my podcast, which like, meanwhile, I'm in like crippling debt. I mean, it was just so funny. So the whole song is just about like me getting rich off my podcast because of my snitch ass daddy. And it's just the best. And it's so fun. I listen to it sometimes. I'm actually kind of nervous for my Spotify rap to come out because I'm like, I'm going to be exposed for how many times I listened to my own song. But it's so funny. And it's just like, it's fun and it's a bop honestly I mean my friend is so talented he's like a grammy winning producer so it was just like the perfect person to do a song like this and and we put it out and um I had one cousin post something saying something about me and then at the end he said now rap about that bitch and I was like I love it like EP coming soon I love it like it gets stuck in my head it is a bop It is a bop.

33:11Absolutely. I love that. And I think, you know, going back to your point and what you touched on, you know, during the song too, like it's just, I love, and it's, I don't think spite's the right word. It's like you get motivated to like show people like you're wrong, you're wrong. And I'm going to show you that. And people are going to be on my side. And, you know, when you're on the side of good and that, you know, your dad did not deserve to die, right? The side of good. I think most people are going to agree with you. And then you can kind of like heal through this art too. But what I wanted to touch on too was that the point you made about positions in true crime being paid for everybody but families.

33:54I've talked about this with a variety of people across true crime. And it never ceases to amaze me how not only people, but people in the entertainment industry, people in high positions of power, expect you to volunteer for a position that is normally paid. And it's not that we're trying to, you know, get rich out here, I think. It's that we're trying to command the same respect that every other random person in true crime gets. Like, why does a random podcaster get an appearance fee? But when a family member acts as an executive producer, you know, they're expected to do it for free. Like, I get, you know, I won't play the game about being paid for interviews.

34:36I don't believe that people should be paid for interviews. I think that's something totally different. When you were working in an audio position, a visual position, a normally paid position within a company that stands to make quite a bit of money off the project you're making, it is insane to me to say everybody else gets paid but you. You should do this out of the kindness of your heart. You should take this time away from your job that actually pays you, away from your family, away from whatever that might be because you're the family member and everything you should do, everything you do, you should be grateful for, everything you do should just be out of the kindness of your heart.

35:12I think it's an insane expectation that only puts families down more. Like, I don't think people realize that, you know, when you have a full-time job and then you're trying to investigate your person's case or make some type of project out of it, you have two full-time jobs now. So that wasn't a question, but I would love to get your thoughts on that yeah no I mean it's spot on like it it is a full-time job I mean especially in my case and like your case I'm the researcher the writer the producer the host like I play all of these roles that on any other you know networks show would be all individual line items and have different pay rates for each and I'm doing all of them by myself while also trying to keep a roof over my head.

36:00And also something to kind of touch on really quickly. You talk about this a lot. You know, I won't charge for an interview, but like I'm supposed to say thank you for like you highlighting my case. But like I also made you maybe some money because you get to run ads on my interview. So it's this weird sort of like thing. But yeah, I I work essentially full time on my show and pay to do it because I have, I pay for and fund my show. Um, but it is really interesting that like, you know, I have a lot of friends in, in podcasting across all sports and, um, also true crime, but a lot in other recap shows, food.

36:48I have a lot of friends in podcasting and they show up and they get paid and they go home and they get to turn it off. And that's that. And they get paid quite a bit of money from companies that are doing really well and are very successful because they're good at what they do. And I would argue that if you line up my experience with them, it's the same. So by transitive property, I'm good at what I do. But I'm expected to do it for free or even paid to do it just because it's my dad. And well, don't you want it solved? Don't you? Aren't you desperate for answers? like it's almost used against me in a way.

37:28And I think that becomes really icky and really gross. And I try to avoid that as much as possible. I try not to think about the money side when I can, but it's hard when, you know, you're trying to keep a roof over your head. You're trying to solve this case. In my case now, I've created this thing that people are interested in and want more episodes of. And I can only do so much with the limited amount of time I have when I'm also trying to like, you know, provide for myself and my cat child. And I am, you know, only one person and I have a wonderful team of friends who also work for free on my show.

38:11And we're all just doing this to further the case. But it gets to a point where it's like, would we be wrong if this became our job? Are we now unethical because we're getting paid for it? other podcasters that I know aren't unethical and that's their full-time job. So, and that are not even related to the case. So it's this very weird double standard, I think, that exists for families that we have to just sort of suck it up and be grateful that anyone's even talking about our case. I mean, in my dad's case, it's like, well, you should just be lucky that like someone's talking about your black drug dealing dad who got murdered 22, three years ago almost.

38:52And like, you should just consider yourself lucky. And it's like, okay, well, are you going to call Bank of America and tell them that I'm paying my bill this month with luck? Like, no. I have to, you know, pay my bills just like everyone else. I spend a lot of time doing this. You're consuming it and entertained by it and fascinated with it. And I should be properly compensated for that. Yeah. Yeah. This might sound crazy, but sometimes, and I promise I have a point to go behind it, sometimes I feel like certain people in the community don't want us to be empowered in that way. Like it's better to keep us down, keep us doing interviews, keep us as their interview subjects.

39:39But what I think is interesting is this recent conversation around Anna Kendrick and Woman of the Hour and how she donated everything she made, you know, to victims that were affected by similar crimes. So it's almost as if they would rather us accept donations all day and be kept in that place without power where we are so reliant on them. Like, thank you so much for doing a project. And I hope I get this little scrap instead of empowering us to do the same thing that all these other creators are doing. And I don't know. I just thought of that in the moment. And I thought it was interesting. Like, why is, why are we, and I mean, I get why we're praising people.

40:18Why we're praising her for giving that money away. That's an incredible thing to do. But how can we do that? And then the same breath say it's not OK for one of those victims that was affected by that case to do something like become an executive producer on that project and get paid for it. It's I don't know. It's an interesting position. I think we're totally. Totally. I mean, I struggle with this all the time when I'm, you know, fighting for proper compensation. And then I see a post that's like donate to this organization that's, you know, fighting for justice. And it's like, I might not be a tax write-off, but I'm an organization fighting for justice.

40:58And I think that's kind of what it comes down to, right? You know, we see this a lot and like there's loopholes and everything. like when you go to wherever, like, I don't know, insert business here, Target, let's say they don't do this at Target, but like they do this at companies I just can't think of right now. And they're like, oh, do you want to donate like the 35 cents to this company or this nonprofit that's doing good? And like, I always hit no, because they're going to tally up everything they make and do it as a tax write off for their company. And I think about that, like, oh sure investing in my show wouldn't have been a tax write-off but you're gonna go and collect donations for another organization that's doing the exact same thing I'm doing um but then you're gonna complain that I wanted to get paid it's just so wild um and yeah I think I mean in her case I don't you know know the ins and outs but I'm assuming whatever she donated was a tax write-off um but yeah for a charitable organization absolutely yeah right and and of course that you can't write that off if you're hiring someone and paying them appropriately so i think that there's this level of like the do good on the front sort of self-serving on the back um and also maybe you know just this level of like we're not talking about it enough so maybe shouldn't that even cross her mind to make them part of the you know writing and producing process but I think that needs to be talked about more and it needs to be discussed especially when it's other people's stories then you know she's only one line item Anna Kendrick is only one line item of that movie I watched the movie I thought it was good there's other people who are on it that got paid and you know why not a family member who could have come in almost like a consultant and said oh this is how it really happened or this is what feels really authentic and true to me or consider this when, you know, telling this story that the victims don't look a certain way or whatever.

43:01I mean, there's so many ways to incorporate, even if it's like a two hour call, just to sit down and say, you know, she reached out and maybe she didn't do any of the things I said, but she took the time to sit down and talk to me, I think makes a big difference and like compensate me for my time. I think it's really tricky when you're turning tragedy into art at this level. Obviously, people do this in comedy and other things, and it's a little different. But I think when you're turning true crime into art, it's delicate and it's really tough. And I think when you aren't including families and victims, you get into really dark territory where you almost lose the true part of the true crime.

43:48And in your mind, it's really easy to compartmentalize and just think you're telling a random story that was made up. And I think having victims in the room allows you to remember, oh, yeah, this is a real story. This is something that really happened to someone. And I think it helps you not lose sight of that while you're creating whatever you're creating.

44:13This episode is brought to you by Cars.com. On Cars.com, you can shop over 2 million cars. That means over 2 million new car possibilities, like making space for your growing family, becoming the type of person who takes spontaneous weekend camping trips, or upgrading your commute. Wherever life takes you next, or whoever you're looking to be, visit Car for That on Cars.com. Visit Cars.com to discover your next possibility.

44:39Now, I can't speak about exactly who was involved or wasn't in that project. I didn't go that deep, to be totally honest with you. But I wonder if that seat at the table isn't held for us because of that guilt factor. Because when we are there, it makes them feel this heaviness that they don't want to feel. You know what I mean? They want to do their job, which I get. I think most people want to do their jobs, go home and not think about it, right? We don't have that luxury. But I almost wonder if it's by design, right? It almost makes it feel too real sometimes when we're that deeply involved.

45:10Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I came from a news background and it's hard to tell these stories. It's hard to, you know, report on or convey things that happen to people that are just really dark. I mean, I struggle a lot with I can't I can't like walk past unhoused people. It like my heart hurts for like days like it like eats away at me. And I think I can't even imagine when and I this is just like I'm on the street and I like overhear a conversation about like someone's struggle. today I was at Trader Joe's and the worker at Trader Joe's was telling the other worker at Trader Joe's that he's got to start eating at home more because he had to take his cat to the vet and his cat had a UTI and it was five hundred dollars and like my heart's just like breaking and it's like and that's just a conversation I heard if I'm in the room with someone telling their story about a murdered family member I mean multiply that little cat scenario or seeing an unhoused person like put on a pair of shoes by a hundred.

46:21Right. It's like it's in your face. And I am generally pretty empathetic. Like I can't imagine being like even slightly narcissistic and then having to face that and just be like, oh, this is just in my face all day. Like it would drive me nuts. So I do think that's part of it. I think that it's also the stark reminder of like, oh, the inequities in pay. Like, oh, I'm making whatever. I mean, movies is different, but like podcasts, it's like, oh, I'm making, let's say, 50 % of the revenue on this show. And I wasn't impacted by this, had nothing to do with it. This person's out here making this show deeply impacted by this story and we're making the exact same amount of money.

47:08I mean, I wouldn't want to be reminded of that all the time. Yeah. Well, and I feel like there's this resistance from what I call old school true crime and new true crime. You know, I think doing true crime ethically and including people like us or families in general takes more time, more resources. It costs more money. And I think that there's always going to, well, not always, I hope not always. I think that there is a resistance to that because for a very long time, true crime was able to be made extremely cheap, really, really fast, putting out multiple episodes a week because you're not interviewing family members.

47:42You're not, you know, you're not using any resources. And I think, of course, when people like you or I or, you know, any family in true crime or people that just care about families in true crime say, hey, you should stop and allocate more resources to make sure you're doing this correctly, there's going to be resistance to that because it costs them more money. It's just the bottom line. You know, why do things in a different way when it's worked for so long to just pump out content and not care? But I think that's where the consumer piece comes in. And I think that's the big disconnect that these big companies especially and a lot of big creators don't see.

48:17They want to pump out their content. They want to make their money. And they're always going to have that solid audience, right? But more and more people, these consumers that help us are saying, but what about the families? What about that? You could have done more with this. I saw somebody else do more. I saw her, you know, she has a whole podcast. Why didn't you mention it? The consumers are growing. I don't know if growing is the right word, but they're changing a lot faster, I think, than the entertainment industry as a whole. And I don't think that the entertainment industry necessarily wants to keep up with them because it's going to cost them more money.

48:51But, and I think you and I agree on this, people who will not do that and resist that change will continue to see their numbers go down. For sure. Especially as, and we've sort of talked about this, like the supply and demand shifts. So right now, it's easy for creators to say, oh, nobody cares about families and victims because those stories aren't the ones getting pushed. But there aren't that many of them. As there are more, we will start to see those shows climb to the top. And then we can point to that and say, oh, actually, once they're being fed those stories, they actually do like those stories.

49:32But no one's creating those stories. So how would we know? And now there's like a sprinkle here and there of these stories and they perform well. And then we go, oh, yeah, see that they actually do like media pressure because they like that perspective. And then I think it will start to sort of enough of those will start to shift the perspective of these bigger companies to go. So, oh, and even if they only adapt for their bottom line, at least they'll figure it out. But yeah, I mean, I think that when you throw in company, business, job to people who have no connection to these stories, it does not matter their level of empathy.

50:17It does not matter their level of care. The bottom line will always have to drive those factors because just like us, they have to put food on the table. So they have to figure out how to ride that line. I think there's a way to do it. I don't know how willing people are to sit and brainstorm that. But I think there's a way to do it. I think there's people out there who want like us who are willing to sit down with people and figure out whatever that means and whatever that looks like and how to structure a business that makes money but also includes, you know, the right people in the right rooms.

50:49and I don't think I need to be in every room but I think that my consideration when it comes to my dad's case should be on the table and so I think what we're talking about is super reasonable and like easy to do it's just a matter of like when people don't like to take risk and I think when they're making millions of dollars or however much money and they know what they're doing is working they don't want to change. And so now it's like, again, on us, the families, to prove that, oh, that change is going to be worth it or that change is going to make you money or that change is going to drive the same traffic that you're getting on these other shows.

51:34And of course the burden is on us to do that. But I will take one for the team and, yeah. Yeah. Make my reputation album. I love it. Snitch-ass daddy. No, and that's why I'm so unapologetically, like, I will always talk about money in this industry. And when people say, like, you just want money, you want to be number one, yeah, I do. I absolutely want to make money and I want to be number one so that we can show these larger companies that it's possible. Like, media pressure hitting number one was such a milestone, I think, for families in true crime. And that's what I wanted it to be, was like, I want to show the world that we can do it just as good, if not better, than these companies, right?

52:18These random creators who I think some of them are fantastic. I'm not bashing all random creators. They just don't have that same vested interest, right? It's like, I think I've probably talked about this exact same thing to you, right? You know, if there's a genre, let's say, of military podcasts, would you expect someone with military service to be at the top? Absolutely. So why in true crime are we just expecting random people to be at the top? I don't know. It's something I like talking about because I like to shift that perspective. Like, yes, I want to be number one because I want to break the wheel of true crime and redesign it to help families.

52:56I want to give back like nobody has before. I want to change my life. I want to change the lives of all these families that are impacted by true crime. And I can't do that without the same money and resources as people making millions of dollars a year. I just can't. That's just not the way that the world works. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. And I feel like people, well, I don't know. I guess I'm in my head about stuff a lot. But I always wonder if, you know, people are like, oh, all she wants to do is be number one. And I'm like, yeah, because my dad deserves that. This case deserves that. The work I've been doing deserves that.

53:32Like, there's so much more to it than just like being number one on the podcast charts. and and to your point it shows people what the consumers are interested in and you know I think that is so important it's your review right like if you don't want to write a review and if you have anything mean to say just save the time just listen and and that will drive up the the numbers and that will move it to number one and that will show people like yeah people are consuming this kind of content. The number of times I pitched this story before I ended up making it myself and spending all my money on it, I mean, so many times.

54:11And every single time it was like, no one's going to care about this case. Unless your dad's name is JonBenet Ramsey, no one gives a shit. And I'm here to hit number one and be like, yeah, that's not true. People care about people and people care about my dad and my dad didn't deserve to die, even if he was a snitch ass daddy. And, you know, that's that's just that. And his story is so wildly compelling on its own. but the fact that it's unsolved just seems so unfair. And it's the reason that I'm, you know, doing any of the things I'm doing. It's the reason I travel the world and talk about this case.

55:00It's the reason I, you know, spend all my money on it. It's the reason that I'm exhausted and jet lagged. And, you know, people will think what they will about the lifestyle I live. And you know what? If it's glamorous in your head, perception is reality. I'll take it. But it's hard work. And I'm fucking tired. Yeah, I'd argue it's harder than just researching a case, turning off your computer and being able to walk away. And I know that cases stick with people and it's not that easy, especially for creators who care deeply. But I always use this analogy of like, you know, but they're not at Thanksgiving dinner looking at a chair and thinking, you know, that person should be here.

55:44You know, they're not having these critical points in their lives, you know, getting married, having babies, whatever it might be, and wishing that person was there. That's just, it's just not. And there's always going to be a difference. But my goal with these, you know, with helping share your dad's case is to hopefully get you to number one. So I think you've done such a great job with the podcast, but I know that it's not over. So I wanted to ask you about that. What's going on with the podcast? what's going on with the case and what do we have to look forward to what's what's in the future yeah so um it's i've been in in a bit of a pickle with the show so i i was holding off for a while but um we have our first part three pre-production meeting tomorrow so working on the next installment of the show, which is going to look, feel and sound a lot different.

56:44And I'm very excited about sort of the next iteration of what this is going to be much more authentic to who I am. And I'm really excited about sort of the creative decisions that I'm making that I now feel the freedom to make in these next nine episodes. I have gotten a lot of info for the last few months with people going to prison for random things and people coming out of prison for other things and people running around town just yapping their mouths. So I have a lot of work cut out for me as far as people to talk to, but they all seem a little chattier than they used to. So that's exciting and gives me a little bit of hope.

57:34I think I'm pretty close. I've had a lot of help through this community of people that I've met and other, you know, family members and researchers and incredible investigators, wonderful journalists who have reached out with advice and help and support. And I think that that's exactly what I needed to sort of get the information on the other side. And so I'm feeling very hopeful that some sense of closure is coming for me, which I desperately need because I am really ready to like take a break. But I just I knew that I would know when it was time and it's just not yet. It's I need to keep going.

58:20But I think I'm close. I think I'm very close. But yeah, new episodes are coming. Crazy interviews. People who are just so tied to this story who can't shut up. I love that, though. I mean, those last few episodes, too. We're like insane. I am so looking forward to this next set of episodes. I love the way that you did the podcast and it unfolding in real time and you giving real time feedback. I think that it's so cool and raw and it's exactly the way that I like to listen to podcasts. So thank you for what you do because I think it's amazing. I think that you are not only helping your dad, but helping all families in true crime and helping people, you know, just, I don't know, I guess have a little more empathy in true crime.

59:12I care for you and I know a lot of other people do too. And I'm really, really excited to see where it goes. I know that you're going to keep doing amazing things and keep getting amazing features that are like in every time I'm like, oh, she's like in Glamour UK. All right, Madison. Oh, I wonder she'll talk to me now. No, just kidding. But where can people find you? Let's end on that note. Where can they find you to follow you, follow the show, follow all your social media and see, you know, what magazine cover you're going to be on next or whatever. Yeah. So I'm just Madison underscore McGee on literally everything.

59:47And then Ice Cold Case on Instagram. And I think that's really the main one. We were on, you know, the app that shall not be named, but I don't really get on there anymore. So Ice Cold Case on Instagram. And then Ice Cold Case, wherever you get your podcasts, we're on it, I think. And if we're not, let me know and I'll figure that out. But I think I'm everywhere that you can get a podcast. And yeah, stay tuned for part three. I mean, if you're new, this is like the perfect time to jump in. There's 18 episodes. So lots to catch up on, lots to binge. And a new set is coming soon. Yes, if you guys liked season one of Voices for Justice, where I told Alyssa's story in excruciating detail, I think Madison does a better job than I did.

1:00:40But there are so many episodes out there that you can binge right now. And then hopefully by the time you're all caught up, this third set of episodes will be out. Yeah, I just want to say thank you so much, Madison. I appreciate what you do. I appreciate just having you in my life, and you're wonderful. I feel the literal same Thank you so much

1:01:25my face. Snitch ass, snitch ass, snitch ass daddy. Snitch ass, snitch ass, snitch ass daddy. Snitch ass, snitch ass, snitch ass daddy. Snitch ass, snitch ass, snitch ass daddy. Snitch ass daddy got you sad in my DMs. I'll tell your daddy I said hi when you see him. My vibes be so high cause you keep me amused. Say a mess in the comments, adding to my views. I'm living rep free on repeat in your I'm getting rich watching you go insane. You're in vibe for my plot, my revenge. You want to fight? Nah, stay mad about my snitch ass, snitch ass, snitch ass daddy.

1:02:22corps

1:02:45I gotta get into this, which I don't know, Yes? Thank you to my daddy. Snitch ass, snitch ass, snitch ass daddy.

1:03:08Looking for your next go-to smoke shop? Stop scrolling. I've got you. Headshop.com is the number one online smoke shop, already trusted by over 100 ,000 happy smokers, just like you. They've got it all. Dab rigs, vaporizers, glass bongs, smoking pipes, even THCA flour, all in one place. Need a new daily driver? Grab a smooth glass bong or a classic smoking pipe. More of a concentrate fan? Their dab rigs, e-rigs, and wax accessories are designed for smoother, harder-hitting sessions. And yes, they've even got legal THC flour. Best part? Every order ships fast and discreet, which is why thousands of smokers keep coming back.

1:03:48So don't waste time hopping between shops. Shop the best in dab rigs, vaporizers, glass bongs, smoking pipes, and THCA flour right now at HeadShop.com, the number one online smoke shop. HeadShop.com has what you need. Check it out today. Oh, and because you're listening right now, you get 10 % off your next order when you use the coupon code HSHOP at checkout. Go to HeadShop.com now and smoke smarter.