Cindy James

27:14She's never had another witness. She's never clearly been able to describe the suspect. It's hard to believe that she was never able to offer a good description. The officers discussed multiple attacks against Cindy, and why they believed the attacks had been staged by her. The officer said that in general, the attacks only happened when Cindy's house was not being surveilled by police. Their thinking was that this happened because Cindy knew when they would be there, so she never hurt herself during that time. which I think it's fair to argue that any stalker would also wait until the police weren't surveilling Cindy's home, and if they were watching her that close, they probably had a good idea of when she was alone.

27:56The officers brought up the attack from January 1984, the one where Cindy's hand had been pinned to the ground with a knife. They said that it was suspicious that the knife somehow missed all the tendons, bones, and major arteries in her hand. They argued that it was possible Cindy had stabbed herself because a nurse would have known where the least harmful place to stab would be. They also brought up that the way Cindy had been tied up in previous attacks was identical to the way she'd been tied up in death. They argued that it was possible that she'd been the one to bind herself all along. But the worker who found Cindy's body told the province that he didn't think there was a way Cindy could have beaten herself to the point of being unrecognizable.

28:39And again, the police countered this by saying that maybe what the worker thought were injuries from an assault was actually Cindy's head decomposing. Cindy's family denied the suicide theory. Her brother told the province, quote, Why would somebody inflict wounds on herself for so many years and then go into a bush and tie herself up and commit suicide? Cindy's friends and family also said that if she were to complete suicide, she wouldn't have done it in such a violent way or a manner that would have been so humiliating. Cindy's private investigator further told the Vancouver Sun that Cindy was stressed by the stalking, but she never gave up.

29:20To him, it didn't make sense for her to complete suicide. Several of Cindy's friends and family revealed to the media that she'd known who her attacker was. Her father told Unsolved Mysteries, quote, She was very, very reluctant to talk about this right to the end, and our feeling was that she was withholding something extremely vital. Cindy's loved ones further argued that she likely didn't tell the police that she knew who the attacker was because she was frustrated with them, and she knew that there probably wasn't enough evidence for an arrest. Ozzie told Unsolved Mysteries, quote, She wouldn't tell the police the entire story.

29:59She would be evasive. She would withhold information. and she simply would not act as a normal victim would act, and I can see where a police officer would have a tremendous amount of problems believing her story. For about the next four weeks, police continued investigating Cindy's death. Then, on July 12th, they officially announced that they did not suspect foul play. Instead, they believed she planned an elaborate suicide, where she ingested the drugs, tied herself up, then laid down in the same location where her body was later found. This conclusion baffled Cindy's loved ones. Her father Otto told the Vancouver Sun that he was not happy with this decision.

30:43He said, quote, Their explanation didn't satisfy me at all. There's a murderer out there somewhere. Cindy's PI Ozzie was also shocked, and he pushed back against the RCMP's statements that there was never an outside witness to Cindy's harassment. He said, quote, I'm a little confused because if they don't suspect foul play, what do they think? These incidents have been witnessed by family and outside friends. Michelle's mother, Lisa McDaniel, has managed to keep her past buried. You said nobody wants to believe there's a monster in their family. You think she's a monster? I don't want to. But I don't know how else you describe somebody who does those things to children.

31:27Michelle has lived in the shadow of her family's dark past for decades, but now she's ready to bring it into the light. Neither one of those children were suffering because of a disease. Season six of Nobody Should Believe Me is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

31:50After police announced their determination, the coroner service ordered an inquest to determine Cindy's manner of death, and to decide if the police needed to reopen their investigation. And like we've seen before, this really becomes a battle of the experts. The inquest started on February 26, 1990. The police department argued that Cindy had been making up the attacks, and that she completed suicide. They said they spent approximately$1.5 million investigating and protecting Cindy, but they never found any evidence to figure out who the stalker was. The lawyer representing Cindy's family argued that she did not complete suicide.

32:31Instead, she was murdered after enduring more than 90 instances of harassment over nearly 7 years. The lawyer claimed that the police had not done enough to protect her. Now, there were four main parts to this inquest. The first part involved examining 16 of the most severe incidents Cindy endured. The police focused on two of the physical attacks Cindy had gone through, the first one being in January 1983. This is where she was found slouched over the basement stairwell with the black nylon stocking around her neck. Cindy told the police that she'd been attacked from behind when she was in the garage.

33:09Officers searched the garage and the house for any signs of a struggle, but they said they didn't find any evidence. However, they did discover bloodstains on the bathroom counter. When questioned about the stains, Cindy didn't give a clear answer. The officers believed this incident might have been a failed suicide attempt. In order to get more information, Cindy took two polygraph exams, and she didn't pass either of them. According to police, after this, Cindy changed her account of what happened. She said that she was actually attacked inside the house, not in the garage as she had previously said.

33:44She said that she was then taken to the garage where another man was waiting, and he threatened and harmed her. When authorities requested another polygraph based on her news story, Cindy refused to take it. Now, Cindy's private investigator Ozzie told the Vancouver Sun that he had a conversation with her about this. He asked her to be honest, pointing out that she had failed the lie detector test. Cindy admitted that she didn't tell the truth to police, because the attackers had warned her not to say anything, or else they would harm her sister's mother and herself. Ozzy encouraged her to take another polygraph test and tell the truth, but Cindy still refused.

34:24During the inquest, the police also discussed the last physical attack that Cindy had experienced before she went missing. This happened in October 1988, when Cindy was found in her car with nylon stockings wrapped around her neck, ankles, and wrists. The officers mentioned that during their investigation, they discovered that most of the lights were on in Cindy's house, the doors were locked, and there were no signs of forced entry. Furthermore, a neighbor was outside around the time of the attack, but claimed he didn't hear or see anything suspicious. Because of all of this, police believe Cindy had tied herself up.

35:02But Cindy's family's lawyer brought up some important points to counter police testimony. They mentioned that at the scene, four cigarette butts of a brand Cindy didn't smoke were found. Also, an expert on knots testified that it was highly unlikely Cindy tied the bindings on her ankles and wrists by herself. Police also testified about the two house fires, the first being August 21st, 1985, when the fire broke out in the basement bathroom. An officer said that he determined the fire was intentionally set by someone who had access to the inside of the house. But again, they argued that they didn't find any evidence that someone had broken into the home.

35:40The bathroom window was open, but there were no signs that anyone had entered through it because there were undisturbed cobwebs, dust, and soot on the windowsill They also argued that the window was very difficult to get through An officer tried, but struggled and ended up leaving footprints on the toilet tank and seat Also, there were several alarms in the house and on the basement door which would have made it hard for someone to enter undetected So again, based on all this, they believe that no one else was in the house besides Cindy And she was the one who started the fire And again, Cindy's family's attorney argued for the other side He said there was evidence someone broke in through the window There were pry marks, and two screws were missing that had never been found Police went on to argue that the April 1986 fire was started by Cindy too A fire inspector testified that a flammable liquid was found on a bookshelf, and he believed the fire was started by either Cindy or the Woodcocks who were staying with her.

36:45A firefighter also testified, saying that Cindy had told him she'd been in bed just before the fire broke out. However, the province reported that when he checked her bedroom, it didn't look like her bed had been slept in that night. And again, they bring up all the security measures in the home, saying that no alarms were set off. An investigating officer stated that Cindy told her she thought Roy was responsible for the fire, but he was in South Africa at that time and was ruled out. This officer says that she believes Cindy started the fire and even considered charging her with arson. But then another officer testified and disagreed, saying that he did not believe Cindy set the fire.

37:28The Woodcocks also denied any involvement, and Cindy's family's lawyer pointed out that no accelerant was found during the search of her house. It's a lot of back and forth, but stay with me. The second part of the inquest examined Cindy's married life to Dr. Roy Makepeace. The Vancouver Sun reported that it was revealed that he had been violent towards Cindy during their marriage. Cindy told police that Roy owned two guns and had hurt her on three occasions, once even breaking her ribs. She also said Roy would talk about killing people with crossbows and threaten to kill her. One detective wrote in his report, quote, Roy make peace has a short temper and shows anger spontaneously.

38:13A former co-worker of Cindy's testified that in the fall of 1981, Roy pushed her down the stairs, causing a leg and foot injury. The co-worker said that she'd also seen Cindy come into work with a black eye. Roy was with her, and she heard him tell Cindy, quote, I'm sorry I did that to you. It was further revealed that after the July 1984 attack, when Cindy was in the hospital, someone called asking about the hospital wing's security where Cindy was admitted. The employee who answered the call later heard a recording of Roy's voice, and thought it sounded similar to the caller. According to the province, one detective who had been on the case from the beginning testified that he initially believed Roy was responsible for the stalking attacks, but after investigating and interviewing Roy, he ruled him out.

39:05The inquest also discussed the two messages left on Roy's answering machine. Several police officers believed the voice on the tape was Cindy's, but her family disagreed. Roy testified at the inquest also to share his side of the story. He admitted to slapping Cindy, but he strongly denied ever beating her. Roy insisted that he never made any threats of harm to Cindy or discussed killing anyone. He also said that he had no part in the 90-plus incidents leading up to Cindy's death. Now, part three of the inquest focused on Cindy's medical history. The jury heard about a January 1985 hypnosis session, where Cindy claimed Roy had killed two people during a boat trip in the summer of 1981.

39:53The Ottawa citizen reported that while under hypnosis, Cindy said that at some point during the trip she decided to go near the shore where the boat was. Cindy came upon a log cabin and knocked on the door. After getting no answer, she went inside and found Roy holding a bloody knife. There were two dead people, a man and a woman, and blood was all over the cabin. Cindy ran away in horror, yelling that Roy was a murderer. Cindy claimed that Roy ran after her and slapped her. The next thing she remembered was Roy cutting up the bodies with an axe, putting them in plastic bags, and throwing them over the side of the boat.

40:34Police said that they investigated this, but found no evidence of any crimes or human remains. It also came out that several months after the hypnosis session, in late June 1985, Cindy attempted suicide by taking a lethal dose of sleeping pills She was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric unit for 5 days, until she was withdrawn against doctor's wishes by an older brother After she was out, the police asked Cindy to call Roy and confront him over the murder allegations she'd made during the hypnosis session During the call, Cindy accused Roy of being behind the threats and attacks And also of killing the two people in the cabin Roy was shocked and denied any involvement Saying he hadn't spoken to her in 18 months He tried to convince Cindy that she was mistaken and that she was seeking revenge Cindy responded, quote Roy, that isn't going to work anymore I'm not insane We both know that you have been doing it Roy threatened to sue her if she made those statements publicly.

41:39Following the call, the police put Cindy, Roy, and two other unnamed people under surveillance, but they stopped after five days, saying that it was draining resources and yielding no new information. We also learn that in October 1985, the police hired psychiatrist Dr. Tony Marcus to review Cindy's case. The Vancouver Sun reported that after reading the police reports and interviewing Cindy twice, Dr. Marcus diagnosed her as having borderline personality, which he defined as a, quote, person on the edge between reality and psychosis. He described Cindy as a hostile dependent, someone who harmed herself and tried to make it appear that someone else was at fault.

42:25He said that despite this, her terror and suffering were very real to her. Dr. Marcus also told the police that Cindy could be treated through hypnosis or truth serum. But first, she'd have to admit to herself the theater she created. He said, quote, I couldn't get very far with her. She never let you get that close to know the truth. During the inquest, the jury was also told that in 1986, Cindy started seeing a new psychiatrist, Dr. Friesen. Up until her death three years later, Cindy saw him twice a month. Dr. Friesen testified that he did not believe Cindy had thoughts of ending her own life in the last two years before her passing.

43:08In fact, he noted that her mood in the months leading up to her death was the best that he'd ever observed. Dr. Friesen told the jury that he diagnosed Cindy with a condition called dissociative disorder, where she had difficulty connecting with reality. He believed that she felt compelled to seek attention by making up stories During his testimony, Dr. Friesen explained that if Cindy was indeed responsible for the reported attacks She would experience the events as if they were genuinely occurring This would result in her feeling little or no pain during the incidents And having little or no memory of them later on He emphasized that it wasn't a matter of Cindy lying about the events but rather her genuinely believing that they were happening.

43:54Additionally, Dr. Friesen mentioned that Cindy sometimes took high doses of a sleeping pill that caused retrograde amnesia as a side effect. And enter another psychiatrist, Dr. Connolly, who treated Cindy while she was in the hospital. He believed there was a possibility that Cindy had multiple personalities. The fourth and final part of the inquest examined Cindy's death and the subsequent investigation. Dr. Sheila Carlisle, who conducted Cindy's autopsy, testified that the scene around Cindy's body was filled with inconsistencies, which she detailed for the jury. Dr. Carlisle suggested that there were signs that suggested foul play, a trickle of blood was discovered on Cindy's car, and her shirt had scissor-like cuts.

44:44However, there were no physical injuries on Cindy that matched these cut marks. Her nails were manicured, her face was nicely made up, and her clothes were neatly arranged. Regarding the stockings found around Cindy's neck, hands, and feet, Dr. Carlyle explained that they were too loose to cause major harm. The nylon around her neck was carefully looped under her hair and then looped twice over it, and while there was a mark on Cindy's neck that resembled a puncture, no needles or drugs were found nearby. She also expressed her opinion that there were too many inconsistencies to determine what exactly happened to Cindy But she also believed there was a strong possibility that the scene had been staged According to police officers' testimonies, they had several reasons to rule out homicide in Cindy's case When they found her body, her coat was spread carefully on the ground, and there were no signs of a struggle The nylon stockings used to tie her neck, wrists, and feet were too loose, causing no bruising Additionally, Cindy's bank card was discovered under her car in a way that police didn't believe could have happened by accident.

45:50Inside her locked car, the officers found Cindy's purse, two sets of keys, and two bags of groceries from Safeway. The police took these groceries to the Safeway store near where her car was found, but the total didn't match any sales from the day she went missing. Police thought the missing sales receipt was important, possibly because it could have revealed the purchase of black nylon stockings used in the incident. To gather more information, the police consulted Dr. Friesen, who said Cindy was not suicidal at the time of her disappearance, though she had shown suicidal thoughts in the past.

46:25Based on all these findings, the police concluded that Cindy likely took the drugs on her own, then tied the nylon stockings on her body before collapsing in the area where she was found. And we have another knot expert. According to the Canadian press, a knot tying expert testified that Cindy could have bound herself prior to death. He explained that there was a complex arrangement around her wrists and ankles. Each limb was tied with a slip loop to form a box arrangement. To demonstrate how Cindy could have bound herself, the expert used a black stocking the same length as the one found on Cindy.

47:01He then recreated the same knots and loops, tying himself up in front of the jury. The whole process took about three minutes. The expert pointed out that the stocking around her wrists and ankles were loosely tied, allowing them to be slipped off easily. However, the ligature around her neck was tight enough to make him feel lightheaded, but it didn't completely cut off his breathing. Now, back to Cindy's family's lawyer. They argued that she couldn't have taken the drugs found in her system because she didn't have access to them at her workplace. They also pointed out that there was no record of any drugs missing from there.

47:37The lawyer also argued that if Cindy's body had been near the abandoned house for weeks, someone would have noticed. The lawyer told the jury that a construction worker lived in a van close to where Cindy's body was discovered. He actually cooked his meals less than 20 feet from where she was found, and they say they didn't notice anything strange or unusual. Even the people who partied at the abandoned house claim they didn't see anything suspicious. A dean of pharmaceutical science told the jury that it would have been very hard for Cindy to inject herself with a large amount of morphine found in her body.

48:14They believed that it was more likely that someone else had injected the drug into her or she had taken it by mouth. Cindy's PI Ozzie testified that he believes Cindy had been murdered somewhere else and her body had been left outside the abandoned house hours before it was found. He told the jury that he saw Cindy's body in the morgue on the day after she was found. He said her body smelled and she had blotchy patches and molting on her left side, which indicated she was lying on her left side when she died, but at the scene, Cindy had been found lying on her right side. He also testified that he was surprised nobody had come across or noticed Cindy's body before it was found.

48:55He thought it was unusual that if Cindy had been there for two weeks, animals hadn't reached her body. To test his theory, he put out a piece of pork, and right away, birds and rodents attacked the pork. On May 30th, 1990, the inquest into Cindy's death finally ended, after 40 days of hearing evidence. The jury concluded that Cindy's manner of death was undetermined, not suicide. Some jurors told the province that they had a difficult time reaching a decision. Most of the jurors believed that there wasn't enough solid evidence to prove Cindy had completed suicide. The majority also decided that there was no reason for the police to reopen Cindy's case.

49:39One juror told the province, quote, We wrestled with it from day one. There were all shades of grays, no black and white. In the end, you felt like you knew Cindy. Your heart just ached for the girl. Now, because of the jury's decision, Cindy's case was reopened, but according to Cindy's PI Ozzie, and another detective named Wally Christensen, police didn't really further look into Cindy's death. In 1992, Ozzie and Wally spoke to the Vancouver Sun about how they both believed Cindy had been murdered. Wally said that he'd been able to figure out where Cindy bought her groceries on the day she disappeared.

50:18It wasn't at the Safeway like police had thought. She actually purchased food at Woodward's, which used Safeway grocery bags. Wally was able to track down her receipt and found that she did not buy black stockings. He further pointed out that no black stockings were found in her home, office, or car either. Ozzie further said that there were some things that the police had gotten wrong at the inquest. For example, the jacket found under Cindy's body was not hers. It was actually a men's blue denim jacket. Ozzie also said that while police said the jacket was neatly folded, he believes it was rumpled, as though it had been dropped.

50:58Following the 1992 Vancouver Sun article featuring Ozzie and Wally, reporting on Cindy's case became very infrequent. As the years passed, Cindy's sister Melanie Hack kept speaking out. In 2013, she told McLean's magazine, quote, I realized not all the facts had been presented at the inquest, and some that were presented were incorrect or incomplete. I spent years going over all the police and medical files plus Cindy's writings, looking for missed information. Throughout her journey, Melanie has come to believe that Cindy did not complete suicide. She also believes she knows who stalked and killed Cindy, but she didn't name any names, saying it would just be speculation.

51:43Melanie has expressed doubt about the case ever being officially solved. She questions whether the police were genuinely interested in resolving it, and I think she brings up a great point. She suggested that potential evidence gathered in the case, like the DNA from cigarette butts left at the scene, saliva on envelopes, and foreign hairs found on Cindy's body could be used for analysis. But at this point, she's not sure if authorities even still have the evidence. She said, quote, they were told to keep the case slash file open because of the undetermined findings at the inquest, but I found out police closed the file and labeled it as suicide.

52:23So, is there any evidence left for analysis? Finally, when asked what she'd like to say to the world about Cindy, Melanie said, quote, we need to be able to recognize Cindy's case for what it was. Beyond a distraught individual genuinely fearing for her life, she felt trapped, alone, confused, alienated, angry, guilty, and ashamed. It doesn't matter what clinical label was put on Cindy, she was a victim. A victim of society's ignorance and unable to know where to turn to for help, or who to trust, or what to do. Society failed Cindy through a lack of proper support over a span of years. Which brings me right to our call to action.

53:10Please share Cindy's case. I also highly encourage you to visit Cindy's sister Melanie's website, melaniehack.com. Here you can read her blog, parts of her book, and find more media about Cindy's case to share.

53:28As a reminder, 44-year-old Cindy James went missing on May 25th, 1989, after visiting a bank at Blundell and No. 2 Road in Richmond. On June 7th, her body was discovered lying near an abandoned house on Road 3 in Blundell, around a mile away from the bank. Anyone with information about Cindy James is urged to contact the RCMP tip line at 1-800-222-8477. But, as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

54:07Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney, and is a Voices for Justice media original. This episode contains writing and research assistance by Haley Gray, with additional research assistance by Anna Luria. If you love what we do here, please take a moment to follow, rate, and review the show on your podcast player. It helps us and helps more people find these cases in need of justice.

54:44Thank you.

55:17Welcome to the Secret After Show. The dogs are in. They actually are here this time. And let's jump into Cindy's case. This is a case I have been thinking about for years. I think it's a case that I was familiar with even before I started making true crime content. And I think, you know, it's just one of those cases that is very popular and, in my opinion, quite sensationalized. And I wasn't really here to play the game of do we believe her or not. I think if you're here on this podcast, we know that we believe victims. And the bottom line is they still haven't proved this one way or the other.

56:00Cindy's family still wants answers. Who did this? Who was the man on the corner that Tom Woodcock saw run away? And if the RCMP still has this evidence, will it ever be tested? Those are my questions. And that would solve it all. I mean, testing those items would be a great way to put this case to rest and provide her family with answers. Now, if you didn't notice, my voice is a little hoarse, and I tried to wait to record this until the very last minute, but this does have to do with my trip for Alyssa, which I promised I would tell you guys about. So first of all, let me just tell you that a big reason I don't post where I am at the time I am there is because of my dad.

56:45Let's just cut right to the chase. If you guys haven't seen, he has been aggressively attacking me on social media. I mean, saying like really horrendous things and saying things that I think he thinks will make people not like me or think I'm a liar. He posted a comment on a YouTube video that was like, Sarah was a goody two-shoes who always ratted Alyssa out. And it's like, yeah, I've already told my entire audience that. It's part of the reason I have guilt about Alyssa because, as you guys know, I've said this a thousand times, I was 100 % wrapped around my dad's finger. And I think that's a big reason why Alyssa didn't confide in me about so much.

57:32She knew that I would go right to our dad and tell on him. But he's also saying things like, my mom would be so disappointed. He's also making a bunch of stuff up, which is no surprise. He said that he was offered a plea deal of probation, which isn't true. I actually went back to the prosecutor and confirm that because I was like, hold the phone. Because, you know, a little insight into the trial, I haven't talked about this yet. I begged for a plea deal. They came to me and said, would you be willing to accept a plea deal or would you be willing to entertain it? Not that it's up to me, but they do run it by families first and get their opinion.

58:11And I said, I would love a plea deal. I would love anything to not have to go through this hell for the amount of time I imagined this would take, which ultimately was about three years, right? So I said to them, I would be willing to accept anything if he just confessed, said that he did it, and told us where she was. And they came back to me and said, we talked to the lawyers, they say that he will never take a plea deal, so we're not going to offer him one. But now he says that he was offered one and didn't take it because he knew he was innocent. So yeah, that torment has been really hard.

58:52And I did hear about it while I was on vacation. As much as I tried to avoid it, it was everywhere and I had a bunch of people telling me. So unfortunately, that's just really where he is now. He has said multiple times that he basically, you know, he started a YouTube channel, he wants to start a podcast, he wants to advocate for people like him, he says, which I don't want to go into all here because this is where I ramble, and I'd rather get all my thoughts together, but needless to say, I am very concerned for the effects this can have on the true crime community, especially the wrongful conviction community.

59:36Him running around trying to say that he was, you know, wrongfully accused and wrongfully arrested can be so harmful to people who are actually wrongfully accused and wrongfully arrested. And I'm just going to leave it at that and get on to the nicer part, which was my trip. So if you guys are familiar with me and this podcast, it probably comes as no surprise that as a part of one of the ways I want to honor Alyssa, I went to Disneyland, which sounds so silly to say, but Disneyland is where Alyssa and I had our best memories. Getting outside of that house was where we had our best memories. Riding the rides with Alyssa, her making me be brave, that infamous picture where Tigger's in the picture.

1:00:28If you guys don't know, Tigger was Alyssa's favorite. And there's this picture of me and her that I love so much. I had recently gotten my braces and so I did not want to smile in photos ever. I was like, absolutely not. Braces are the worst thing ever. And she ended up tickling me right before the photo. And it's just a really sweet, special moment that, I don't know, I love her for forever and really reminds me of Alyssa when I go to Disneyland. So without getting too sappy, I went to Disneyland and tried to have the best blowout trip ever. And if you guys saw on my Instagram, I know a lot of you were surprised by this.

1:01:06I don't actually share a ton of my personal life that much, but I did share for National Daughters Day, my two bonus kids with Watchman. So it was me, Watchman, and our two daughters going to Disneyland, and it was absolutely fantastic. I think part of the, I'm gonna cry, I think part of the healing was also taking them. I mean, a huge part of the healing. And of course, you know, we weren't really talking about it. We didn't say this was a trip for Alyssa. We just said, we're going to Disneyland. We're going to have the best trip ever. And a huge part of the healing for me, don't cry, was seeing them have fun, seeing two sisters have the best time ever.

1:01:51And I just really hope that was a fantastic experience for everyone. I think it was. Their feedback was fantastic. We had a great time, and I was able to honor Alyssa. And as a really short side story, they had a display for Coco, and you could write notes to your loved ones that had passed. And every time we went to this display, they were out of paper. And it was really upsetting. It's like, all I wanted to do was write this message to Alyssa on this paper or whatever. And Watchman ended up going to a staff member and explain the situation, you know, in private, again, we're not doing this stuff in front of the kids.

1:02:30It's not their burden to bear. And they actually, a cast member came up to me and they were like, listen, we're bringing out the papers tomorrow. What exactly do you want written on this note? And they promised to put one up for Alyssa. So shout out to the Disney cast members for being absolutely amazing and making the trip more magical and just better. It was really, really sweet, but that's where I was. I was at Disneyland. I'm sure I will post some more photos and pictures, probably not of the kids, but yeah, that's why I was away, and thank you for allowing me this time away, and let's get on to our segment of hope.

1:03:08So this is from CNN.com. It was published on September 24th, 2023, and the headline reads, Missing toddler found sleeping in woods using her dog as a pillow after walking three miles barefoot. The article goes on to read that a two-year-old girl who walked barefoot more than three miles with her family's two dogs was found sleeping off a wooded Michigan trail using the smaller dog as a pillow, authorities said. Troopers were called to a house in rural Fathorn, Michigan around 8 p.m. on Wednesday after the toddler, I'm not going to say her name, had wandered away from home, wandered away from the home.

1:03:50Michigan State Police Lieutenant Mark, you guys are always getting me the pronunciation. I'm always getting, I don't know why I'm saying you. I'm always getting myself with the pronunciation. Michigan State Police Lieutenant Mark Giannuzio told CNN on Friday. The girl's mother said she had an instinct to check on her daughter, who had been playing in the yard, and learn that the toddler's uncle told her to go inside because she had no shoes on. She began to yell, they searched for 20 minutes, and then they called the police. Now, they deployed drones, teams, more dogs, and a bunch of people from the community who went in the area near their home that was heavily wooded.

1:04:35And around midnight, four hours after police were first notified, a family friend searching for the girl on an all-train vehicle came across the Chase's family Rottweiler buddy, who started barking as he approached, according to Chase. That's popcorn scratching the wall. More dogs. All the dogs. The two-year-old was discovered a short way off the trail, sleeping on the ground with her head atop Hartley, the family's English Springer. When the ATV driver tried to get close to the toddler to wake her up, the smaller dog growled. The mom, I'm going to cry. The dog says, or the dog, the mother said that she has those dogs wrapped around her finger.

1:05:16um so yeah this is our story of hope obviously because um she was found it seems unharmed with her dogs uh i saw a different article that basically implies that like the toddler started walking away and the dogs just knew to follow her so um this is our segment of hope shout out to those dogs dogs are magical dogs are a life um get a dog if you don't have a dog and you have the ability to care for a dog responsibly and the room and all that, get a dog. They are amazing. I can't speak highly of them enough, and you never know how they might just help you out in a sticky situation. So that is our segment of hope for the third or fourth time saying that now.

1:05:59Thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.