Yogurt Shop Murders Part 3- Re-release

26:14These phone calls came to their homes and to the yogurt shop. Reese Price also had a pretty scary encounter that she thinks may have been related. Before the murders, her apartment had actually been broken into. The person who broke in didn't take any valuables, but this person did go into Reese's underwear drawer and arranged a few pairs of her underwear on her bed and placed a knife from her kitchen on top. She also told Johnson that at the time of the murders, she and Jennifer Harbison looked a lot alike. They were both small and they both had long, light brown hair. Johnson is all over this, and he asks Reese to come down to the station for an interview.

26:57In that interview, Reese mentions that crawlspace area that connected the yogurt shop and the party store next to them, and she adds that she and the other girls often heard noises up there. She also says that one night, she was closing down the shop and she noticed shoe prints on the toilet seat in the men's room, and the ceiling tile above it was out of place. She couldn't confirm for sure if someone used the crawlspace to move between the party shop and the yogurt shop, but she believed that it was possible. Early in 1999, Johnson asks Littleton again about using that software to help model the yogurt shop fire, and Littleton again advised against it.

27:40he said that basically there was just too much opportunity for error. Littleton added that if they had the ladder and that metal shelving unit that had been lost, it might be a lot easier to do something like that, but for the time being, they should hold off. Chief Stan Nee was on the job for about nine months when he gave Paul Johnson another opportunity to put together a task force for the yogurt shop murders. This time, Johnson would act as a case agent while Senior Sergeant John Neff acted as the unit's supervisor. There were also six cold case detectives assigned to the unit. At this time, Kenneth McDuff was still considered to be an active suspect, along with the Mexican Nationals, some folks who practiced Satanism, and of course, Maurice, Rob, Mike, and Forrest.

28:30But the focus really seemed to be on Maurice specifically. On August 6, 1999, Johnson hosted their first meeting, and he opened it with a 205-slide PowerPoint titled, quote, The Investigative Plan to Pursue Maurice Pierce, end quote. This presentation would last four hours. At this point, they start looking for anyone who might be able to help them gather more information to place the boys at the scene that night. So, Detectives Hardesty and Laura go back to Rob's girlfriend of a few weeks around the time of the murderer named Kelly Hanna. By this time, Kelly had a few kids, and she was in her last trimester with another.

29:15She had pretty much all but forgotten about her boyfriend of just a few weeks when she was a teenager, so needless to say, she didn't really remember much. They press her for information for hours. Eventually, they tell her that they were being told that she was in that pathfinder with them after the murders. She then breaks down crying and apologizes, saying it was probably just the hormones and that she was doing her best to remember. Finally, they ask her who she thinks would be most likely to kill the girls, and she says Mike Scott. After they finally let her go, the two detectives would briefly discuss if they were perhaps too hard on her.

29:57Hardesty says, quote, I think she's holding back on something, but I don't know what, end quote. Laura then says that he hates to be too tough on her, and Hardesty chimes in saying, quote, if she fucking starts bleeding in here, that's our ass, end quote. And Laura says that he's turning off the recording device. Laura would maintain that they weren't too rough on her, that she was simply upset because she realized that her ex-boyfriend was a cold, hard murderer. Investigators then interview Forrest again, who gives them nothing new or helpful. But their next interview yielded much better results.

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31:09Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Rakuten.com. On Thursday, September 9th at 9.15 a.m., Mike Scott was officially interrogated by investigators. Mike tells investigators that him and Rob aren't friends anymore because Rob had actually stolen a pair of Metallica tickets from him. Mike also tells police that he believes that Maurice had gotten the.22 pistol off of some kids that were selling him drugs. but he also says that he hopes he's not lying to them. At the beginning of his interrogation, Mike would tell investigators that he didn't know anything, but by 7.04pm, he would call his wife Janine to say, quote, Dear, I know more about the case than I thought I knew, end quote.

32:02John Jones would later discuss his theory about the way that the investigation was being handled at this point. He states that Johnson's team was relying on the pyramid theory of investigation. He describes this by saying that you start with a confession and build everything in the case around that confession. And if the evidence doesn't support that confession, well, you figure out a way to make it support it. Let's dig deeper into Mike's interrogation with the police. Throughout Mike's interrogation, he would go from apologizing about his terrible memory, but insisting he knew nothing and certainly wasn't involved to thinking that maybe he was.

32:41That maybe Maurice didn't pick him up in the Pathfinder on Saturday night, but maybe it was Friday because that's when the murders happened. Throughout this entire time, Mike repeats time and time again that he could just be making all of this up and that he doesn't really remember. At a certain point, he becomes agitated and the police tell him that he's free to go, but instead of leaving, he just takes a break to smoke a cigarette. On this break, he was talking to one of the detectives and he tells him, if I knew who killed the girls, I would happily tell you because I think what happened to them is wrong.

33:18Pretty quickly, when Mike gets back into the room, things heat up and detectives tell him that they know that he did it and if he doesn't tell them right now, they can guarantee that he will get the death penalty. But if he confesses, they can help him out. About three hours into the interview, Mike agrees to take a polygraph test, and the operator does come into the room, he sets up the machine, and he asks Mike some questions, but for whatever reason, the actual test was never performed. When they ask Mike how much money was taken from the register, which remember was over$500, Mike says maybe$12, maybe$14.

33:55But by 1.43pm, it appears that Mike's memory is just somehow coming back to him. He says that on the day of the murders, they all went in and bought yogurt, and that Maurice and Forrest were casing the place, but he wasn't. They would all drive back to the shop later, where he saw that the back metal door was open. Maurice and Forrest went in while Mike stayed in the car. Mike hears no gunshots and only remembers Maurice and Forrest running back into the car and telling him to drive. A few more hours go by, and Mike takes another break. After this break, the police say, hey, it's pretty hard to believe that if the back door was open, you didn't hear a single gunshot.

34:35And Mike says, oh, well, maybe I did hear gunshots. A few more hours go by, and Mike says maybe he was more involved with the murders than he remembers. So the police jump on this, and they start asking for specifics, like what were the girls tied up with. And at first, Mike says it was Venetian blind cords. The police say, nope, try again. And then he says, napkins? Wrong again. And Mike asks them, maybe it was an electrical cord? At this point, he's not telling them these things. He's asking them these things. He continues to tell investigators that he's not sure if it's real or not, but he can see it all playing out in his head.

35:19Rob made him shoot one of the girls, saying that if he didn't, he would be shot himself. So, Mike starts crying and shoots one of the girls. He also states that the fire was started by them placing napkins and foam cups on the girls' bodies, and they used a lighter to start it. He again reiterates to police that he doesn't remember any of this, he's just seeing it in his head. At 5.35pm, he does ask for a lawyer and he says that he wants to go home, but the investigators tell him maybe it's just time for another break. And if after the break you still want a lawyer, that's no problem. So Mike takes this break and when he gets back, he's like, yeah, I think I should probably get a lawyer.

36:04And the police are like, no problem, you can totally do that. But would you be willing to talk to just one more person first. And Mike agrees. This is when we meet Robert Merrill. Merrill had been on the force for 19 years and worked with none other than Mr. Hector Polanco. And like El Diablo himself, he gets a confession. Mike does essentially repeat his entire story again, but they develop it a bit more. They get more specific. Around 10pm, Mike insists that he should probably go home since it's been like 13 hours at this point. The investigators are like, fine, no problem, but can you come back in the morning?

36:48And Mike agrees. Mike gets back to the station the next day at about 1030 in the morning and he says like, hey guys, I'm not sure how that all happened last night, but again, I don't remember doing any of the things that I told you I did the night before. This obviously did not sit well with the investigators, and they ask him what he means. And at this point, Mike starts telling the story again, but he's adding things, and he's changing things, and this really irritates Robert Merrill. At one point, Merrill ends up taking out that.22 pistol that they took from Maurice back in 1991, and he shows it to Mike, asking if he remembers the gun.

37:30But when Mike's not sure, things start to escalate really quickly, and Merrill literally puts the gun to Mike's head. This is something that Merrill would deny in court, but the video evidence is pretty tough to contest. Just like the day prior, Mike folds. Okay, what you guys are telling me must have happened. I might not remember it, but I guess it happened. If you've been a listener of mine for pretty much any amount of time, you probably know how much I love real audio. So I am going to play you three clips from Mike's interrogation so you can see this transition and judge for yourself. In the very last clip, you will hear the detective ask Mike about the gun, and in the video, you can see him show him the gun and then put it to his head.

38:17This video, as well as every video used for these episodes, will be in the resources section for this case on VoicesForJusticePodcast.com. But here are the clips.

38:52Come on, Michael, you're doing good. Tell us. Let's do this today. We're good. I remember one girl screaming, terrified. Okay? I don't know if this is real or not or if this is... Michael, it's real. It's okay. You can present it to me anywhere you want. It's real. Michael, look at me. You're a member of the land. I don't honestly remember going in the building. If you were in the building, you wouldn't do it. I don't believe that, Michael. You don't have a mill in there. And you know you were in there. Did you shoot any of those girls? No, sir. Then tell us what f***ing happened. What did those two boys do to those girls?

39:30You want to live with this the rest of your f***ing life? No, I don't. Then get it out right now. They're f***ing you over. F*** them. They're the ones that shot the girls. Do it. What did you see happen? At some point, Maurice hands you his, that revolver. What did he say to you? Either shoot him or you're next. That's what he said to you. Right. What do you remember hearing this? I remember looking at this girl. I cry. I hear Robert saying, do it, do it.

40:09I hear the gun go off.

40:18I only pulled trigger once.

40:26I turned around. It was a stupid gun. What happened next, Mike? That brought back some memories, didn't it? I remember looking at the gun. You ever seen that gun before? I'm not positive. Does that look like a gun you've seen before? It looks like a gun I've seen before, but I'm not positive. Is that the gun you shot somebody with, Mike? I don't. Is that the gun you walked out behind somebody with and shot in the head? Is that the one?

41:01Talk to me, Mike. Yes, sir. You did that, didn't you? Yes, sir. We've just opened some more doors, haven't we, Mike? Not really. You sure? After speaking with Mike, they bring in Rob Springsteen, who, like Mike, started off proclaiming his innocence, but by the end, he does give a confession. For Rob, I was only able to salvage one clip where he tells the investigators that he's innocent.

41:41The hole's there. Oh, I'm in it. I don't know. That's what I keep telling you guys. I mean, my God, this was seven years ago. But this is one of the most significant things that ever happened in your life. That's why I keep trying to explain to you. If I was there and I partook in this, I would remember these things. And you do remember these things. No, I don't. No, I do not. You're the coldest guy I've ever talked to in my life. Are you a cold-blooded murderer? No, sir, I'm not. I think you are. I think Maurice is absolutely true about you. Well, then let's take whatever actions we need to take.

42:16If that's what you believe and that's where you think this case needs to go, then let's go there. We don't want to go there. But I'm doing everything I can and have exceeded my limits of helping you guys. Where do we go now? There are more clips available, but without being able to read the captions, it's pretty difficult to make out what they're saying. So I'm just going to summarize it for you here. After Rob tells investigators that he's innocent, somewhere along the way, he starts to change his tune. In the video I found, they ask Rob, what did Maurice make you do with the.380? What did he tell you to do?

42:50And with his head down, he says shoot her in the back of the head. He asks which one, and he says he doesn't know. They ask him where he shot her, and he actually puts his index finger on the investigator's shoulder, which as a quick reminder all four girls were shot in their heads nowhere else the investigator kind of just goes right over this and just continues to ask where and rob says maurice wanted him to shoot her in the back of the head but he didn't want to shoot her they then ask was she already down what happened just say it answer it rob what else did you do and rob says he doesn't know.

43:29But the investigators do what they do and they continue to press him saying, yeah, you do. And then the investigator says, quote, she wasn't dead yet, was she? End quote. He's referring to Amy Ayers, who was the only girl shot with the 380 and the only girl to be shot twice. The audio is so bad at this point that I can't tell if Rob even answered the question about Amy not being dead after she was shot. This would later be a problem in court because the police would actually have to tell the jury what they say happened versus them being able to hear it clearly on the audio. But the investigators go on to say, quote, and warning here, it's pretty graphic language, but it's true to the story.

44:14You fucking know you fucking raped her. Just say it. end quote. And Rob seems pretty agitated and finally says, quote, I stuck my dick in her pussy and I raped her, end quote. On October 6th, 1999, Mike, Rob, Maurice, and Forrest are arrested for the yogurt shop murders. People in the community were shocked. They couldn't figure out why these kids would do this. The principal of McKellum High School would even come out and expressed disbelief that the kids would even be able to keep a secret for that long. On November 29, 1999, there was a hearing where Robert Merrill gave testimony about the series of events that the state would be presenting to the court.

45:03He said that Maurice came up with the idea. Maurice bought the yogurt while Mike and Rob went to the back room and propped open the door. Then, they all went to the mall and waited for the store to close. Forrest stayed in the car as the lookout. Rob and Mike had the girls get undressed and tied them up with their clothing while Maurice went to the register. Maurice then quickly became angry because there wasn't a lot of money. He asked the girl wearing a yogurt shop polo where the rest of the money was, and she told him that that was it, so he shot her. He then asked the other girl in the yogurt shop polo the same question, and she gave him the same response, so he killed her too.

45:44Maurice tells Rob to rape one of the girls and tells Mike to do the same, but Mike couldn't perform so he tells her to kill her instead. Mike then shoots Amy and Maurice shoots her again. They then piled up the bodies, set them on fire, and left out of the back door. It's important to note here that when the case did proceed to trial, the testimony about the last two people in the shop, those people in the hooded jackets, was totally eliminated and they weren't able to use it. Also, instead of using the original report from arson investigator Melvin Stahl, they would be allowed to present a completely different theory about how the fire originated.

46:25Although Stahl initially believed that the fire had originated on that metal shelving unit and that the girls were actually burned from radiant heat, he would now state that after revisiting the case via pictures and seeing Littleton's new findings, he agrees that the fire started on the girls' bodies. Just like Mike said in his confession. Just like John Jones alluded to when speaking about his theory that they were reshaping evidence to fit the confessions they obtained. Ultimately, largely in part because Maurice and Forrest never confessed, they would never be charged with anything related to the murders.

47:05After being extradited from West Virginia to Texas on May 30, 2001, Rob Springsteen would be sentenced to death, but because he was a minor at the time of the murders, that would be changed to life in prison. On September 22, 2002, Michael Scott was sentenced to life in prison after the jury couldn't unanimously agree on giving him a death sentence. In 2006, Rob's conviction was overturned by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals when they ruled that Mike Scott's confession had been used inappropriately against him, and that it was in violation of his Sixth Amendment right to cross-examine witnesses.

47:44About a year later, on June 6, 2007, the same court would overturn Mike Scott's conviction, citing the same reasoning. This didn't mean that Mike and Rob were off Scott-free, though. The cases were being prepared for a retrial. During this time, the defense lawyers asked for the DNA found on the girls to be retested. Because at this point, it had been over 15 years since the initial testing, and as you all probably know, there were a lot of advances in DNA during that time. The test determined that the DNA found on Amy Ayers and Jennifer Harbison belonged to one man, the DNA found on the clothing used to tie up Eliza belonged to another man, And the other set of DNA from Jennifer Harvison came from a third man, most likely her boyfriend.

48:32But ultimately, they determined that none of the DNA matched Mike, Rob, Maurice, or Forrest. It would take another few years, but by the end of 2009, all charges against Mike and Rob were dropped. Unfortunately, because their cases were essentially voided versus them being deemed innocent, they wouldn't be eligible for compensation offered to those that are wrongfully convicted in the state of Texas. Rob would file a few lawsuits trying to fight this, but he wouldn't receive anything for the time he served. As more officials in the Austin Police Department were assigned to the case, what happened to Amy, Jennifer, Sarah, and Eliza would continue to evolve.

49:16Maybe they weren't all bound. They appeared to have been face down when they were shot. Jennifer's body was in an unnatural position, perhaps it shifted that way as items from the metal shelving unit fell on her. And some more graphic items that I'm just uncomfortable getting into and don't find particularly important to the case. The parents of the girls were obviously devastated and upset by the convictions and eventual reversals. And who would blame them? the absolute horror that would be sitting through hearing such graphic details about the way that your child died to only have it be pretty much for nothing had to have been just unimaginable and despite maurice and forrest never being convicted and mike and rob being released barbara harbison still believes that they are the true perpetrators in this case I believe that the people that they arrested are the right people, even though they're out, they're not in jail, that we will be blessed with an answer.

50:21And it may not even come until I'm gone. But like I said, it won't affect me either way because my children are gone and they're not coming back to me. I have memories of them and that's what I hang on to. So what do you want people to know about Barbara today? that I'm well, you know, that God's blessed me and he's given me seven grandchildren and I'm good. I'm really, really good. Jennifer and Sarah are always with me. And I think that I've made the best of the worst situation. I think, you know, I may be wrong, but I think I've made the best of the worst situation. Like I mentioned way back in the beginning of part one, I truly believe that there is hope in this case.

51:09And that isn't just because I am endlessly hopeful for these cases, which I absolutely am, but it's also because in 2017 the Austin Police Department entered that single strand of DNA gathered from Amy Ayer's body into a database. And they found a match. Some things never go out of style, like trust, reliability, and driving a Toyota. Take the legendary Camry and Corolla, designed for comfort, engineered for performance. Hurry in. Offers end November 3rd. Toyota, let's go places. It's Hulu-ween on Disney+. Watch frightful family favorites like Hocus Pocus and Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas on Disney+.

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52:32But it's something. It's something huge that they've never had in this case before that could help them solve it. But the problem is, the FBI is refusing to release the familial lineage to the Austin PD to further investigate. The FBI states that this is for privacy reasons. It's a private database where donors are promised to remain anonymous. Further, federal law prevents these samples from being traced to individuals. But, like I said, I still think that there is hope. The Austin PD is fighting for this DNA, and so are the families. I don't know much about overturning federal laws like this, so if you do, definitely let me know on social media, because I would love to know what the chances are of getting that overturned.

53:21But, in addition, I think that it's great because you never know when they'll get another match in another database. If they matched once, it's possible that they'll match again. And the families aren't giving up just yet. A few years ago, Amy Ayer's parents told reporters that as long as they are still alive, they would still fight for Amy and the girls. The closest thing that families have gotten to justice at this point is their lawsuit against Bryce Foods, the company that owned the I Can't Believe It's yogurt shop chain. They were awarded$12 million, but I'm sure each and every one of of them would trade that money in for answers about their children.

54:04Which brings me to our call to action. In my research for this case, I was actually able to find a call to action directly from one of the families. This comes from Amy's brother Sean and his wife. You know, we're a family that doesn't give up. And we will continue to annoy, irritate, call, text, email, the DA's office, the police station, until something happens. And we would like the public if they know any information. If you don't think it's worth anything, just call. And you can call the Austin Cold Case, you know, homicide unit. His name is Ron Lara. You can call him and tell him what you know, even if you think it's nothing.

54:43You know, we are still interviewing people. We still get tips on this case. And I think that's a good, important thing to remember that, you know, with a case like this, we believe there's someone out there who could know something that could be helpful and could be helpful for this investigation. Like I said before, I really do think that there is a lot of hope in this case. And there's also a lot of loose ends, even today. Who was this crazy person that was harassing Jennifer Harbison and the yogurt shop manager? Could Kenneth McDuff have been involved, or maybe the Mexican Nationals? Also, what about the owner of the party store, Mr.

55:22Jorge Barney, the guy who was on the other side of the wall when the shots were fired, the guy who had access to the crawlspace that connects the stores. Remember, manager Reese Price said that she saw male footprints on the toilet and the tile above it moved. Could Jorge Barney have used the crawlspace to escape after committing the murders? I think it's possible. It's also possible, though in my opinion pretty improbable, that one or more of the four boys were involved in the murders as well. To be totally honest, I am really torn here. It hurts my heart to not be able to fully side with the parents of the victims when they say that they believe that Mike, Rob, Forrest, and Maurice killed their daughters.

56:08At the end of the day, none of us know what happened to Sarah, Eliza, Amy, and Jennifer. But there were 50 confessions in this case, and ultimately, the courts avoided Mike and Rob's sentences due to their confessions and DNA evidence. So whether or not they did commit this crime, they were cleared of it, and I think that needs to be discussed. We also discussed a lot of crazy interrogation techniques, from the pregnant woman to Hector Polanco being this iconic figure who could just rip the truth out of your heart, who would later be known as this guy who got all of these false confessions, it's just a huge topic in this case that I really think needs to be addressed.

56:53And since I am by no means an expert on the subject of false confessions or wrongful convictions, I reached out to the most knowledgeable person I know on these subjects, Maggie Freeling. Maggie has been a journalist for 10 years. You might remember her from the documentary The Disappearance of Maura Murray. But she also hosts the Unjust and Unsolved podcast, as well as the Suave podcast, both of which are about these varied topics. She has spent years speaking to exonerees and going over evidence in a variety of wrongful conviction cases. So here is me and Maggie discussing false confessions, wrongful convictions, and how we can hopefully improve in the future.

57:38the tactics. I mean, that's certainly one of them. But then, you know, the one that I see the most is keeping them in there for so long, threatening. I mean, in the yogurt shop murders, I mean, it was very clear that Scott was threatened. I mean, he put a gun to his head. I mean, I can't imagine, you know, being a young person. I mean, I know they were in their 20s, but, you know, again, they're not you or me with some sort of higher education who knows all these things. Being in your twenties with a gun to your head by a cop saying, I know you did this confess 12 hours in an interrogation room.

58:13I mean, the leading causes of wrongful convictions, and this is from the innocence project, real or perceived intimidation by law enforcement. We have that use of force by law enforcement. I would say a gun to the head as a use of force, compromised reasoning ability due to exhaustion, stress, hunger, substance use, mental limitations, limited education, devious interrogation techniques, you know, saying things like what your friends in the next room confessing. I mean, police are allowed to lie to you and fear, you know, they usually threaten them. If you don't confess and we get you for this, you're getting the death penalty.

58:51Just confess and we'll give you 30 years instead of death. Do you want to die? It is. To me, I can see how somebody would falsely confess to just say, I just got to get out of here. Exactly like you said, I just got to get out of here. I've been in here 12 hours. I'm hungry. I'm tired. I'll fix it later. Oh, absolutely. Well, and honestly, like Michael Scott's confession is so, so sad. And it's over multiple days. You know what I mean? They're like, come back the next day. Like it's, it's so intense and so insane to me. And it's, it's just tragic because he says multiple times, I don't remember any of this.

59:29You know what I mean? He comes back the next day and he says, I think I might've lied to you guys. Like, I just, I don't know what happened in my head. It just, I don't remember any of this. I'm not sure that I did it. And they're like, no, no, no, you did it. This is real. And it's just, it's so sad because there's so many points in which he kind of comes to grips with reality about like, wait, I didn't do this. And just, again, he repeats it, repeats it again. I don't know if this is real or not. I don't know if this is real or not. And, you know, one question I wanted to ask you is how does something like this even make it to court?

59:58You know, like they only looked at it a few years later and decided like, whoa, you know, that was definitely a coerced confession. How does it make it to court in the first place? I don't get it. because police are allowed to do these things. There's nothing that says that they can't. So that's the problem. The problem is, is that it is so easy to convict because this is allowed. I mean, unless there was something like clearly egregious, which I do think the gun to the head was, but I mean, unless it's like so obvious that they're beating him and, you know, something like that. I mean, unfortunately, at least back in the nineties, again, I hope we have different standards today.

1:00:38this was okay. They can lie. They could do these things. They can hold you for hours. There's, you're a suspect in a murder conviction. I mean, the it's, the courts are on the cop's side in this sense. Um, and that's the hardest part. It is so easy to convict. He confessed. Why would he confess to something he didn't do? Obviously we know now, but back then, I mean, juries didn't really know that. And then once you're convicted, it is so hard to overturn. It is so hard to overturn. These guys got lucky because the DNA did it for them, but there's so many cases that that doesn't really happen. I asked the same thing though, how does this make it to court?

1:01:19Because to me, it's just so obvious that it shouldn't, but it does. So one of the things I did want to ask you is how can we prevent this in the future? How can we be better at this and not have this happen all the time? Well, prosecutors are elected. So, you know, you're I didn't really know this until I started doing the work, but you elect them. I mean, here in Manhattan, you know, Cy Vance is up for election and he there are a number of wrongful convictions that have been waiting on him to look at the cases. So, you know, when we're looking at voting, you can vote in these prosecutors, you know, the district attorney, the district attorney, and then they, you know, it's under their office.

1:02:08So the district attorney is elected and you look at people who are more progressive and are looking at starting conviction integrity units, conviction review units. It's absolutely look at your local county and see, you know, who is up for election. We're entering an election season right now. So that is the first way to start this is by electing people who want to make change and want conviction review units and want to first undo the wrong that's been done and then prevent it from happening. Enact legislation to make sure that there has to be recordings to make sure that, you You know, police can't, you know, put forward false evidence to get somebody to confess.

1:02:47These are all things that we can change with voting. If you've made it this far, thank you for listening to this series. Although this is three episodes long, there is so much more that I didn't include here for time's sake. So if you are interested in learning more about this case, I definitely have to recommend reading Who Killed These Girls by Beverly Lowery, which is where I got a ton of information for this series. I also have to extend a huge thank you to Maggie Freeling for coming on the show to lend her expertise. Please go subscribe to her podcast Suave and Unjust and Unsolved. She is doing amazing things in the space, and I hope you will all take a moment to support her in that.

1:03:34And if you did not get enough of Maggie Fraling in this episode, because you can literally never have enough of Maggie Fraling, our full interview and video will be available over on the Voices for Justice Patreon. Which, if you haven't seen, I do put out bonus minisodes every single month and we do cool things like Netflix watch parties, and this starts at just$5 a month. It's a great way to get some bonus content and support the show. Right now, I'm actually trying to save up for a billboard for one of our cases. So if you want to be a part of that, visit patreon.com slash voices for justice.

1:04:08I will also have it linked in the show notes. But this would not be Voices for Justice without ending on our call to action and our victims. So although you heard it directly from the family of Amy Ayers, please don't forget to take a moment and share this story. We just saw a huge break in the Kristen Smart case from 1996 this month. There's absolutely no reason we shouldn't have the same hope for Jennifer, Sarah, Eliza, and Amy. But as always, thank you, I love you, and I'll talk to you next time.

1:04:55Voices for Justice is hosted and produced by me, Sarah Turney. For more information about the podcast, to suggest a case, to see resources used for this episode, and to find out more about how to help the cases I discuss, visit VoicesForJusticePodcast.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show in your podcast player. It really does help more people find the podcast and these cases in need of justice.

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