America’s Debt Problem Is Bitcoin’s Bull Case | Andy Constan

29:00Andy Constan:about there essentially with gold is that it's protection it's the debasement trade would gold um and bitcoin not make more sense to have like a small maybe it's a smaller allocation for you but a allocation to bitcoin in that sense so i am very excited to one day replace some of my gold with a diversifier like bitcoin and today is not that day and not even at the margin and i'll describe why and listen this is just my reason and you asked me how i think about it this is how i think about it it's too volatile it's too correlated to something i already own which is nasdaq and it's not correlated to gold which is the thing i want to replace it with like i don't need any more nasdaq i just don't i got plenty so that it's that part makes sense um like i do understand like it has been incredibly correlated to the nasdaq i i think at some point that will change who knows what the actual catalyst for that is i think it's actually going in the right direction like the i'm when i look at bitcoin and the recent experience and I've paid a lot of attention to it the last few years, particularly because of my interest in the debt companies, but, you know, just growing as a person and looking at these sort of things.

30:29And I like the fact that it had this long period of low volatility and low correlation with the NASDAQ. So it's becoming less correlated to NASDAQ, which is a good thing for me. And it's becoming lower vol, which is a good thing for me. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you about.

30:47Andy Constan:Because this bear market, like Bitcoin dropped 50%, whereas previously it's always been 80%. And the difference, I think people don't understand fully, the difference between 50 % drop and an 80 % drop is another 50 % after 50 % drop. It's a huge difference. Like when you see that, does that start making you a little more interested? Yeah, 100%. I think the fact that the volatility has come down both daily, weekly, monthly, annual, all volatilities are falling, makes it more likely that I want to own it. And the reason is, I don't think it has a risk premium because there's no fundamental need for anybody to part with Bitcoin to get U.S.

31:37dollar cash. beyond what normal currency exchanges do, meaning spot consumption. And because of that, volatility, idiosyncratic volatility on no expected return is a real disaster. So you need the vol to come down. It's coming down. I think that's good. The correlation has broken with NASDAQ, which is good. But unfortunately, and this is a problem for me, and everything's going in the right direction for me to add Bitcoin as a replacement to gold, except the fact that its correlation to gold is going down. And it's practically uncorrelated to gold over the last three years. That's not a great fact pattern for me.

32:30It makes me wonder whether. So again, let me step back and say, I'm thinking about Bitcoin as a debasement asset, an alternative fiat, a hard currency, all of those sort of things that gold are like. And that's my bias. That's the only thing I see its value as. if there's something else it's possible it could have that for instance correlates well with growth or correlates well with inflation in either direction up or down i could find myself using it but no one's made a good case for me beyond hard money and so again that's my limitation that's why i'm comparing it to gold if you told me hey you should compare it to something else and you could prove that it's better than something else, that it carries a higher risk premium so that it has a higher expected Sharpe ratio and behaves like something else that I already have in my portfolio, I'd happily consider it, but that's not where my head's at.

33:42So I'm just comparing it to gold, and for that, it needs to act like gold at much lower volatility, and then it'll go in my portfolio, for sure.

33:52Andy Constan:To be fair, the lack of correlation with gold over the last couple of years has surprised me as well. Obviously, all the fast money has been in AI the last couple of years. So Bitcoin didn't have the crazy boom like it normally does in a bull market. But at the same time, gold was ripping. Bitcoin was sideways and down. Do you have any theory on why that might be? Yeah, I mean, I know why I have a feeling why gold and equities have behaved the way they are. very strong growth, and very easy monetary policy, which are both good for equities and the monetary policy is good for gold, and suppressed long-term interest rates, and heavy fiscal.

34:40All those things are pretty good for gold and pretty good for really good for stocks. And so those assets have acted the way the economic climate has developed. So then you have to say, why didn't Bitcoin? That's outside my jurisdiction. I don't know. It's curious that it hasn't. But if I had to guess, it's because there's still a shitload of people who use the asset for things not what I just described. for speculative trading, for leveraged speculative trading. Listen, stocks are used that way. Gold is used that way. But I don't know. Again, outside my jurisdiction, I think it's because it was a speculative frenzy that started in, well, there's been many, but started in early 2021 and peaked by 2025 into this nonsense about Trump.

35:42You know, oh, you pick it. There's lots of narratives. It's outside of my jurisdiction. But it didn't act the way it should.

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37:24Andy Constan:That's C-A-P-E dot co forward slash WBD. Yeah, it surprised me as well. And I think a big part of it is like Bitcoin was always the fastest horse in any sort of bull market. Bitcoin is where that hot money was going and that just became AI. And it kind of lost the narrative to AI in that sense. I don't think it lost any narrative that's real to Bitcoin. Plus, I think AI actually has a better fundamental story. Like the Bitcoin fundamental story, I buy. I mean, it's a hard currency. I buy the, and look what's happening to the world. But man, AI is just fundamentally, not only just hot money, it's fundamentally a hotter, a hotter, faster horse.

38:06Andy Constan:Yeah. And just one last question on this, how you would assess Bitcoin before we get onto some macro stuff is, you said one of the reasons that you wouldn't do it is the volatility, but can volatility not be solved by sort of position sizing sure but the reason why i don't like the volatility is because i don't like the expected return on the risk like i don't mind volatility i love volatility as long as i'm compensated for it i i don't see the the i don't see the compensation that i'd get for owning bitcoin but that gold doesn't provide at a much lower volatility. Now, and I can lever my gold to have the same volatility as Bitcoin.

38:49If I like Bitcoin volatility, whatever it is, 50, 60, 70 percent, and gold's at 20, 30 percent, I can buy twice as much gold on leverage and have the same vol. But I'm more confident about the expected return on that risk. And so vol to me is the numerator on this thing, and the denominator, sorry, the denominator and the numerator just isn't great for the, given the size of the denominator. And so I want the, if the, unless the expected return increases dramatically, which there's no reason for it to, right? Because when you think about markets, expected return is fully, is what's priced. Like everyone expects a return, but they're not going to get it necessarily.

39:35But the denominator, if it comes down, it makes the asset more attractive, full stop. It doesn't make it less attractive. It only makes it more attractive. And I think people miss that. They think, chase the thing with the high vol because it has the high return. Well, does it? Or is it just vol that's not compensated for? And for me, Bitcoin is vol that's not compensated for, adequately compensated for.

40:01Andy Constan:So I don't understand that. And like, none of this is me trying to convince you. I'm just trying to understand the way you look at this. But you know, over the last 10 years, Bitcoin's gone from$1 ,000 to right now like$80 something thousand dollars. How is that not enough compensation? because it's in the looking backward it was a great trade at a thousand wow fantastic the risk-adjusted return on bitcoin in in the rear of your mirror was fantastic full stop hasn't been for many other points like what is it going forward what's the expected return what drives the expected return on bitcoin that gold doesn't provide and why should i get a lot of of oops Sorry about that.

40:44Why should I get a lot of investment return for going forward? And I think what you need to get more investment returns on Bitcoin is certain conditions to occur. And those conditions could occur. And you're going to make money on your Bitcoin if those things occur. The question is, is there a way to make more money on something that has the same vol? And for now, I think it's gold.

41:17Andy Constan:And I could be wrong. When you say certain conditions need to occur, what are you talking about there? Are you talking about sort of slashing interest rates, money like quantitative easing, yield curve control, like these kind of extreme scenarios? Well, I mean, it's a combination of things like just the expectation that the central banks are going to not fight inflation, for instance. Not that they cut rates. They just say, you know, if tomorrow they announce the inflation target went from 2 % to 3%, I would expect Bitcoin to do very well, even though nothing happened. Nothing changed in the economy.

41:54But, you know, that would be good. If Besant, sorry, not Besant, Warsh, hard to distinguish who's who, Warsh had decided not to hike at the last meeting. I would expect Bitcoin to have done very well. If the Fed decides to use RMPs, which increased the size of the balance sheet, which they did in December, I bought gold. I didn't buy Bitcoin, but I was very bullish on Bitcoin. Gold did great. Bitcoin didn't. So, you'd want, there are many conditions in which a hard currency should do well. I think we know all of them. Some of them are actual things, and some of them are confidence in our policymakers shifting.

42:46No one, let me just be clear, no one has a lot of confidence in our policymakers. They haven't had the confidence for as long as I can remember. So it's not a new thing that suddenly central banks have a credibility concern. But it's getting worse. And the question is, what's next? Is it going to get worse or better?

43:04Andy Constan:If it gets worse, that's good for Bitcoin. And what is your take there? What do you think is coming next? Do you think it is going to get worse? I hope not. And I hope not because I'm bearish or bullish on assets or Bitcoin or anything. Just for the world. I don't like inflation. I don't think it's good for society. And so I hope they, I don't think they, they haven't shown evidence that they're willing to. I think there's a lot of hope that inflation will magically come down. And all of the prior sins of money printing, easy financial conditions, asset prices, all the things that we know have happened get reversed without any pain being felt, and somehow inflation comes down.

43:50And so I think it's been 66 months of that, and it's not coming down. And so I hope they do what's right. I don't think fiscal policymakers, both here and abroad, but particularly here, are trying to solve the inflation problem in a way that is a fundamental demand destruction. They want to solve it by capping diesel prices, which they chose not to do, or tacoing on tariffs or tacoing on the war in Iran, or manipulating treasury bond yields or buying mortgages. None of those are root causes, and many of them, many of the policies they've done, because the deficit continues to be 6%, are not helping inflation come down.

44:59And the things they need to do to bring inflation down are just too painful for them. They are increase taxes, reduce spending. Neither party likes that. One likes to reduce spending, the other likes to increase taxes. Neither of them agree, and so we do both. We don't increase taxes, and we don't cut spending, and that's inflationary. And so no one is willing to take the pain. And I think it's a shame. I think it's sad and shows no leadership in the country or the world to not have dealt with inflation because it really does create outcomes that are difficult for people. while everybody's standard of living may have grown over the last few years, the pace at which they grow hasn't been great.

45:55And some have not grown. And so I think that's policymakers making choices. And as long as they continue to make choices like they've made, we're going to get the outcomes we're going to get. And frankly, that's a bull case for Bitcoin.

46:10Andy Constan:And is that partly driven by the four-year political cycle? I mean, really, two years before you have midterms anyway. Is it just politically unpopular to do those things, therefore they can't really risk their career on it? I wish to say it was partisan or political. These guys, ever since Richard Nixon decided to abandon Bretton Woods and get off the gold standard, every politician has done the same thing. Increase the deficit. Bill Clinton got lucky. Sorry, increase the national debt. Bill Clinton got lucky that he happened to be be constrained by Newt Gingrich and the Tea Party to reduce the deficit.

46:51Was that in 2001, the last time there was a surplus? Not the Tea Party. Not the Tea Party. Gingrich in 94. We had a surplus in 97 and 98. And the reason why we had a surplus is they slashed spending, and we had a productivity boom of the internet. And so we went from a deficit to a slight surplus. But every political party since then, certainly, has grown the deficit and grown the debt. And it's bipartisan. And it's not going to change.

47:29Gridlock keeps the status quo. It doesn't make any changes. And so the status quo is roughly 6 % deficit to GDP. that's not going to go up or down in a particular way unless somebody leads and no leadership has said we're going to do what it takes to get the deficit down. Besson came up with his 3-3-3 plan, 3 % deficit target. They've done nothing. Doge didn't work. Tariffs were implemented in a way that made them illegal, and so they didn't work. And the reason why they couldn't be done legally is because the Congress was unwilling to legislate tariffs. Status quo is just going to get the same outcome, which is increasing our national debt.

48:23Andy Constan:So what would you do, Andy? Like, let's say tomorrow you get the keys to the kingdom, you're in charge of the Treasury and the Fed at the same time, and you're not allowed to say you'd quit. What would you do?

48:36So I've said this a number of times, And I think, uh, Warren Buffett said it before me and Ray Dalio said it in some form. He, I heard him say it at work and he's said it in the press. And I think it's right. I'd raise taxes on every single dollar of revenue that we collect. I'd take a dollar three instead of a dollar. Just write on the tax code in some way. No, it's not a dollar. It's a dollar three and hand it over. So I'd raise taxes by 3%. I'd also cut spending on everything, every dollar that goes out of the treasury. That dollar that goes to a poor Social Security elderly, take three cents back from her.

49:28The same money that goes to building bombs, take 3 % back. The only thing I can't take 3 % back is interest rates. But frankly, my plan, not my plan, Buffett, you know, this is not rocket science, would lower interest rates. So that would work. And so that's what I do. And it would be a disaster. Oh, my God. Would this be full blown recession, depression? It would be very bad for the economy. Very bad. So it's not going to happen. Yeah. But you ask me what I'm going to do. Oh, by the way, I'd cut interest rates to offset it because I'd run the Fed too. Fantastic. I'd do everything I can to offset it, but it would be painful.

50:26The reason it's painful is that every single person in America today, at some point, certainly anybody that's lived more than 30 years, I would say, has had their assets go up. And if they're an employee, their company, which is the overall employer base of America, has done great, which means their job has been more secure. Now, obviously, people lost jobs, but in aggregate, the massive levering up when you transfer$40 trillion of debt from savers to spenders, you get an economic outcome, a robust above-trend outcome. That's what debt does. And so we've had a debt cycle of 50 years. We thought it might be over in the GFC.

51:34And so after the GFC, what did we get? Very mediocre growth. and then COVID. And so that whole debt cycle, what could have been a very long-term, fairly painful period post-GFC that could have lasted decades, right back on the track. And so here we are. Everybody, every American, no matter what place on the economy, has probably gotten more money spent on them from government programs, better wages, more secure job, and for anybody who had any capital, unbelievable investment returns. Where did that come from? Some future point. We're not going to be able to afford what we are committed to providing our citizens.

52:36and inflation is going to drag down our purchasing power. That's inevitable. That bill will be paid. It'll be paid by some future generation that doesn't vote, that isn't even necessarily alive. And it's inevitable. It's inevitable. Now, does that mean the world's going to be like... So whenever I talk about standard of living, it's like, okay, so let's say our standard of living improves by 3 % a year. we could the pain and and should have improved by two percent a year so we're accruing a bill of one percent a year that somebody's gonna have to pay in the future oh that doesn't have to happen all at once it's just the future standard of living improvement it's going to be flatter than the past standard of living improvement.

53:31And so to me, I'm like, man, we really took advantage of this. Everybody today that votes took advantage of this future voters. We should give a little back. And so a little pain, let's just try something. Hey, all I'm saying is 3 % more taxes, 3 % less spending. Let's see how it goes, let's get our house in order. Let's take a little pain ourselves instead of greedily just feed ourselves and see what the outcome is. And of course, there's no party that represents me, nor most economists that would say that's a good idea. It's a terrible idea. It's going to be bad for a lot of people very quickly.

54:17Andy Constan:When did the world more broadly, but I guess America, as we're talking about specifically here, just forget about the idea that market cycles happen and you have to go through some periods of pain. Like obviously after the GFC, there was a lot of pain, but there was the top bailouts. There was a lot of money printed to try and paper over those cracks. COVID was that on steroids and who knows what really happened in COVID, but there was obviously a lot of people struggled, but they quite quickly tried to paper over that by again, just printing an absolute shit ton of money. Like when, why did they give up on the idea of you do have to go through periods of recession?

54:53Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. Part of that is, um, well, that's a good question. Um, I don't have an answer to you. The first thing I heard when I heard that is, should we have done 2008 differently or Or should we have done 2020 differently? I think the answer is maybe, but not really. Like, those were legitimate, painful crises that were worth offsetting. But once you've offset the pain, it's the removal of the accommodation. in, since after the GFC, you'd hear the Fed go up to Capitol Hill and say, you know, all the politicians would say, we're seeing mediocre growth. The Democrats would blame, the Republicans would blame Obama.

55:55The Democrats eventually would blame Trump. We're getting suboptimal returns. The fiscal has to do its part. And, sorry, and the central banker would say, well, we're doing our part. the fiscal isn't. And that's true. The fiscal was actually fairly responsible after the financial crisis. They didn't spend and increase the debt massively. You could argue whether the bailouts were a good idea. I think they probably were. I wish some more people had taken the heat for that. But, you know, saving the financial system, that was a good outcome, I think. And they didn't create massive inflation by doing all the spending.

56:38You can blame, I think most people rightly say the cusp of the overdoing of COVID was the Biden era stimulus. Like, that was just, that was$2 trillion you didn't need to do. Probably right, but, you know, the pork that went to the Republicans during the, prior stimulus informed there had to be some evenness to that perhaps not a good reason to be honest and i think that was a mistake but we overdid it the fed overdid it why did they buy mortgages there was no housing crisis it was the opposite lots lots of mistakes but the big problem is since 2020, when 2022, when we had this bond sell-off and stock market sell-off, there's been no willingness to buy either party or the central bank to actually withdraw the stimulus.

57:45They think they had every, you know, you'd get a little wiggle down and they think they'd have solved the problem. Here we are today, same old problem. And it's just a matter of taking the pain. Why since 2022 has... So I think the simple answer to your question is, it was going okay. It wasn't great. But there was pain in 87, in 91, in 94, 5, in 98, in 2000, in 2001, in 2004. I lived through a lot of pain. 2008, plenty of pain. And then there was mediocre growth for 10 years after the GFC. 2022 is where we were ready to take some pain. We had overdone it. We were ready to take some pain.

58:39And both the central banks and the fiscal failed us. So I think it's a much shorter story. and so why is that i don't know could be massive divisiveness it could be a rise of populism it could be a rise of nationalism listen i think back in 2020 this whole idea of deglobalization and which drove a tremendous amount of nationalism those were relevant events they changed society a little bit and the politicians grabbed onto those things and use them as their political motivation to appeal to the populace.

59:26Andy Constan:It's, I mean, it's such a mess. And it doesn't seem like there's a clear way out of it. Like you say, maybe there is a clear way out of it, but it doesn't seem like anyone's actually going to do that. In sort of Bitcoin land, there's a lot of talk around sort of debt crisis. And this is going to, you know, at some point, whether that's in a decade, in 50 years, who knows, the debt is going to become totally unsustainable. The system is going to collapse. Do you think that is a potential outcome? Of course, it's a potential outcome. Is it a likely outcome? No, it's an outcome. Likely is we keep soldiering on and doing the same old thing.

1:00:05Andy Constan:What probability would you put on sort of full-blown collapse? Oh, gosh, I have no idea. I wouldn't. It was less than 50 greater than five.

1:00:20Andy Constan:So you think they're just going to be able to keep kicking this can down the road? I presume you imagine debt's still going to continue to grow, debt to GDP is going to continue to grow, and they're just going to have to do more intervention to keep this system running.

1:00:35So I actually had this conversation last night in a big macro dinner I had. I think people either don't appreciate or underestimate or don't understand or whatever it is, the levers that governments have.

1:01:04I think an important thing when you take all the world's national debt the US has a lot of it and some of it's owned by foreigners it's sort of irrelevant most of the debt is owned by Americans right the government borrowed from Americans and needs to pay back Americans. And so they can choose.

1:01:35So there are people that own the debt and there are people that have benefited from the spending that the debt's paid for. And if you want to honor the debt, you're going to have a crisis where the people that don't have owned the debt have to live under austerity. Because you're going to have to devote a lot of resources that you could otherwise use on spending to paying back the debt, to paying interest on the debt, to all those things. But you don't have to. You can inflate the currency, and that hurts the people that own the debt. That's a choice. That's a choice. And the government has all the levers it needs to make those choices.

1:02:25Because really, so the government, this is a topic that I find frustrating. People think of the government as a corporation. All the government does is two, has two principal functions. One, it does certain things. Well, three, I guess. One, it does certain things that nobody else can do. that literally the private sector cannot do. And then two, it probably does a bunch of things that the private sector would do better. But, you know, that's where politics, that's all politics stuff. Like, you need the things done. Maybe the private sector would be doing better. Maybe they wouldn't. Different parties would think differently about those things.

1:03:06But the primary function that is to reallocate wealth, to tax from some sets of people, to spend on others, to inflate the economy at the cost of one cohort for the benefit of another cohort, to deflate the economy, presumably the opposite, to grow labor, to grow capital. All of those things are the transferring of wealth amongst the cohorts of the society. And the government just has a lot of ability to do that through laws and policy. And so, yeah, I think they can kick this thing down the road a long, long time and have outcomes that are not the destruction of society.

1:04:05Andy Constan:Which, like, no matter how well Bitcoin does, I don't want to see the destruction of society. And so, like, if there are two options. Well, that's good. That's good. There are people that do. Yeah, I think that's crazy, though. Like, no one's going to be proud of being really rich when the world's burning down around them, I don't think. Trust me. I've always thought about this. And by the way, people ask me, do you own physical gold? Or, firstly, I'm not going to tell you. But secondly, in that dystopia, I don't have enough guns. somebody's gonna come and put a gun to my loved one's head and say surrender your physical gold or for that matter your cold storage tokens and i'm gonna yeah yeah having bitcoin in a zombie apocalypse is not the future i want um but oh yeah and then there's the electrical grid yeah during that situation so you know what i want to see so when i think about gold and bitcoin i don't think about the end game disaster dystopia i think which way are we heading are we heading to more debasement or less are we having are our central bankers trying to um control or are they trying to expand the monetary supply that's what i why i care about those things dystopia I don't have enough guns.

1:05:34Andy Constan:Yeah. And I'm old. One of my good friends, Matt O'Dell, has been in Bitcoin for a long time. And he obviously stacks Bitcoin for every good scenario. But for the zombie apocalypse, he's stacking ammo. Because that's more likely to be the currency in that situation. That won't work either. There's always a bigger guy with more ammo. Oh, I think he's talking about trading with it, though. And by the way, it will be the government. Mm-hmm. they will take all your stuff. Yeah, I mean, that's clear. They're going to do everything they can. So let's forget about the absolute worst case scenario. In the things that they can do, inflate the debt away being one, you know, 3 % inflation or wherever we're at now, that's going to take a very long time.

1:06:19Andy Constan:Do you think, is it likely that we see inflation go a lot higher in the next sort of decade?

1:06:26Good. If they want it to, it will. If they don't want it, it won't. It's a policy choice. It's always been a policy choice. It always will be a policy choice. It's just a policy choice. And so are you asking me, do I think they're going to choose to continue to do what they've been doing? I don't know. We'll see. Inflation's a hot button topic. I think, you know, the horseshoe of populism that people talk about, this is way out of my jurisdiction. Way, way out. And macro guys and options guys and guys who have no business talking to this talk about this all the time, and I'm uncomfortable talking about it.

1:07:11But it is true that populism from the left and the right has a lot of similarities. And so in order to get anything done to get elected, you have to have these two guys fighting against each other on some unrelated issue to the things they actually care about. And our politicians have been very successful at doing that for the time being. One day they may not. And if they don't, that's a fairly dystopian sort of outcome. But, you know, you could have a very significant political revolution of some sort, either armed or not. So those are possibilities. Again, we're way outside of where I spend my time.

1:07:55Andy Constan:Well, to maybe go back to more your wheelhouse, it seems like what they're trying to do at the moment or looking to do is grow their way out using AI. Like, AI is the big opportunity that's not been there in the past. Do you think they have any chance of doing that? yeah so i so again i like understanding the future of ai is something that is um i can't claim expertise on i can tell you what does matter which is

1:08:37there's going to be a impact on labor which depending on how it goes is going to have an impact on the way governments allocate resources they could tax ai and pay that to displaced workers to retrain them and to rehire them and all those sort of things. It could be, you know, we could have the robots make all of our stuff and all we are is, you know, leisure. You know, that's, and you have a UBI sort of situation. Well, it's a possible outcome. When I think about this, I don't think in those sort of, And I've, again, not, there's so, everybody's, smart people have said lots of things about the future of AI and, you know, doom probabilities of 100 to zero.

1:09:40I don't know. What I do know is that AI is very computer intensive and computers cost a compute costs a lot of money and a lot of investment is being placed in to make compute and being borrowed from savers. And its returns are uncertain. And at some point, and there are also other constraints, physical constraints like data centers. NIMBY is not something I care much about, but it's political. But energy consumption, all the resources, copper consumption, all the resources, you know, those are constraints. And I think we could have some bumps along the way to whatever outcome it is. Um, and at the same time, gosh, I've been using, um, algorithms, generally ones that are statistical algorithms from regressions to neural networks, to machine learning for my whole career.

1:10:48And AI is just an extension of that and really, really good and cool. And I use it every day and it's really cool and it's fantastic and all, but it's not that new. It's just accelerating at a very rapid pace. And so to me, yeah, I think it's an incredible tool and is going to change the world and has changed the world and will change the world further. And along the way, in my very narrow window of how do I make money in markets, I suspect there's going to be some bumps along the way.

1:11:25Andy Constan:it's i like everything you've laid out here andy makes me think you need to own some bitcoin whatever that percentage might be i think i think one day in the next few years you'll uh you'll come around and you'll be i owned it briefly you know and i have a bid at um in this case 420 69 with 420 69 is my new meme level i think i may i may never get hit on that bid yeah i may never get hit it's actually you know it's actually going pretty well i like the path that's going on um maybe i do love that you just buy that buy the memes um i don't think you'll get hit on that one but i think when we have this conversation in a year's time maybe things will change but maybe not um but i really appreciate your perspective on all this it's been super interesting um i'd love to do it again at some point in the future and i'd actually i'd really like to get someone like the person that springs to mind is Parker Lewis to come on and have this discussion with you.

1:12:20Andy Constan:Cause I think he would be able to make the case for Bitcoin to you in a, in a way that I couldn't, I couldn't. Um, so maybe we should do that at some point, but, um, really appreciate the time, Andy and tell everyone where they can go to find your Substack, your, everything you do, your Twitter. Sure. It's all at Damp Spring, Damp Spring, um, Twitter, Damp Spring Substack, um, and DampSpring.com if you're interested in a client relationship perfect thank you so much for the time thanks danny