Did ICE Drive Him to His Death?

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1:36Last week, a story broke that stopped me in my tracks about a college student from Springfield, Ohio. He was Haitian. His name was Pierre DeMoss Bell. In Ohio, a family of Haitian immigrants says their 20-year-old college student died by suicide because he was humiliated by the ankle monitor that immigration officials required him to wear. His family says he intentionally walked into traffic and claimed the bullying he faced while wearing that ankle monitor contributed to his death. Bell's father said his son, quote, felt like he was being treated like a criminal. Pierre's death was so viscerally horrifying that I could not stop thinking about it.

2:19So I called the man who is speaking for Pierre's family. He's a pastor named Carl Ruby. What does Pierre's family want the world to know right now? First of all, they want the world to know what a good son Pierre was. They are a family who has done everything legally. They came here legally. They have kept our laws. They've paid taxes. They've worked. But President Trump has repeatedly said, and Mark Wayne Mullins has repeated it, that they're focused on the worst of the worst. And that is an absolute and total lie.

3:07you know what struck me about Pierre he was pretty public and also his death was quite public he died by walking into traffic on an interstate but then if you go to his Instagram profile you can see first of all his representation of himself as like I'm in ROTC I am really proud of graduating and going to college. And also his experience with ice. He has a whole section of his Instagram that's like ice. And you can see him wearing wingtips, it seems, to his immigration appointment and getting fitted for an ankle monitor. And letter after letter from people who knew him academically, on the job, saying, this is a good kid.

4:01And those things seem really important, that he both lived his life publicly and died publicly. It almost, it seems intentional to me. I hope that it's an Emmett Till-type experience. I was with the father when he viewed Pierre's body, and he was wanting people to see it and to see what our immigration policy did to this young man. What did you advise him in that moment? We've advised him not to do that. We're going to try to find other ways to accomplish the same objective and to get his story out and to show what kind of person he was. yeah i mean he he got out of his car and ran directly into the front of a semi to take his life um and it's it's horrifying i mean it's it's it's you know using a religious term it's it's evil it's evil what we are doing to people pierre seemed to know what it looked like to be the picture of American success.

5:17It looked like his victorious graduation photos. It looked like having a job. It looked like serving an ROTC. It did not look like wearing an ankle monitor. But ever since the Trump administration lifted temporary protected status for Haitians back in July, residents of Springfield are getting used to being surveilled 24-7. I saw them put a bracelet on a 70-year-old woman, and she walked out of her ICE appointment and immediately started asking people how she could take it off. And we had to inform her that we couldn't take it off. Her ankle became infected. She got doctor's orders to have it removed, took them back to ICE, and ICE just moved it to her other ankle.

6:10Today on the show, what Pierre DeMoss Bell's experience can tell you about what immigration enforcement feels like right now in Springfield and beyond. I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to What Next. Stick around.

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8:13I wonder if we can go back a little bit, because I first started thinking about Springfield in the 2024 election when there was just that awful moment where the president and the vice president were talking about Haitians eating cats and dogs in Springfield, which is, of course, not true, and put so much attention on your community. And then there you were, this pastor who has literally spent 15 years talking about immigration, trying to create cross-cultural dialogue, religious dialogue in particular, especially with conservative and evangelical Christians. That moment, it must have felt like you'd been training for that moment your whole life, but kind of wished you hadn't been.

8:59Yeah. I first got involved in in 2023 when a Haitian driver on his way home from work crossed the center line and hit a school bus on the first day of school. And a young man named Aidan Clark was killed. And that provided cover, I think, for a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment to be publicly expressed. And our city council meetings kind of blew up with, you know, ridiculous demands, demands that the city have all the Haitians leave they number one they don't want that number two there's no way for them to do that but just lots and lots of of racialized comments about how awful the Haitians were and just all sorts of untrue stories they you know stories that they were uh you couldn't go into the bathrooms at Walmart because they were undressing and bathing in there and that they're opening packages of food and tasting it before they, I mean, just all kinds of stuff.

10:01And my memory is that the family of the child who died kind of didn't want a part in any of this, like sort of, but it sort of took on a life of its own. Like, how did that happen? Well, there were many people using Aiden's death as a cause, as an excuse to attack Haitians. And after a while, Aiden's father, Nathan, had enough of it and came into a city council meeting and said, please do not bring our family name into this. They have spoken my son's name and used his death for political gain. My son, Aidan Clark, was not murdered. He was accidentally killed by an immigrant from Haiti. This tragedy is felt all over this community, the state, and even the nation.

10:54But don't spin this towards hate. He said this was an accident with one person. The whole Haitian community is not responsible for this. And he's been very active on social media, defending the Haitians. And if you go on his social media, his Facebook page, you will find people attacking him because he says kind words about the Haitians. It's a level of ugliness that I've never seen like this. What uncorks that in people, though? Hate and ignorance. They are learning a narrative that is untrue from social media and from places like Fox. I think many of them sincerely believe it. Um, and until they meet a Haitian face to face, they're unwilling to change their mind.

11:51But sometimes when they do meet a Haitian, I have seen people soften. Matter of fact, I talked last night, yesterday to the mother of the truck driver who hit Pierre. Um, she called and wanted to tell me that her son was, was suffering too. And we had a really good talk. And she, she said at one point, why don't they just get citizenship? That's why they, they can't, there's no path to citizenship from TPS. And there was a long pause and she said, I didn't know that. And then she said, why don't they want to go back to Haiti? And I described conditions on the ground in Haiti. Um, I, I was walking one man from my church into his ICE appointment a few weeks ago.

12:32And as we were walking into the appointment. He leaned over and he said, my brother was just kidnapped in Haiti. I said, what, what happened to him? And he said, they burned him. I said, how, how is he doing? He said, no, they burned him alive. There's another young man in my church who a few, uh, well, about a month, month and a half ago, um, was helping out. He was volunteering. He's a 12 year old boy. And the kids were playing with farm animals and there was a pig there and he got kind of sober and said, I saw a huge pig. I said, well, where did you see the pig? And he said, I saw the pig in Haiti.

13:07I said, well, what was the pig doing? He said, the pig was eating the bodies. And I told her these stories, and she said, I did not know that. And I could see her attitude soften, and she said, we need to help. We need to help these families. and and by the way the the bell family have expressed a sense of apology to the truck driver knowing that this was a traumatic experience for him and and he did everything in his power to try to to stop this and just couldn't yeah um i mean you've you've talked about how the policies of this administration are having these impacts that people may not understand.

13:58Like, for instance, temporary protected status ended in July. People now have ankle monitors. There's this statement from the administration, we will give you money to leave. And you've said that for people that you know, that actually creates a horrible situation because then if you leave and go to Haiti, people are expecting you have that money on you. It makes you a target. And it's like$2 ,000,$2 ,500. And I hadn't even thought about that extra part of this. Yep. Number one, if they've been here in America at all, if they've been here in the United States at all, that heightens the sense that they are targets because the gangs assume they're wealthy, assume they're privileged, are mad that they haven't that they got out of haiti so there's already a target on them and then there's this financial incentive and i talked to a reporter last week who was embedded with the gang suppression regiment a un-backed force that is trying to contain the gangs and he said people are literally getting off the airplanes people who've been deported and running for their lives There were people there who wanted to help them, and they couldn't even, the people just ran right past them.

15:18Can we talk about the ankle monitors? Because I know Pierre's family talks about them as this thing that it prevented him from living his life. He couldn't play soccer. He was told he couldn't wear his ROTC uniform. Maybe even that he couldn't be part of ROTC because of the ankle monitor. I think what happened, I looked into that today, and I think what happened is they told him that because he doesn't have a path to citizenship, he couldn't be in ROTC. Wow. But he would like to. I mean, this is the kind of kid, again, this is the kind of kid who wanted to volunteer in our military. You said everyone in the community just calls them shackles now, which is horrifying.

16:08Yeah. How much of the community is now wearing ankle monitors? Well, I'm just guessing, but maybe 100 to 200 people. Yeah. And another thing that's happening is because they have ankle shackles on, many of their Haitian friends don't want to be near them for fear that the shackle, the monitor, will allow ICE to find them and they'll be picked up too. So on top of all of the other hardship that Haitians are facing, there's a sense of being shunned by their own community just out of fear. ICE is in Springfield every single day picking up people. Some people have speculated in the Springfield community that ICE is actually intentionally taking men.

17:02Yeah, I think so. You think so? That's pretty much all they're picking up. And their idea is that if they take men, the families will follow. I've not heard of a woman who has been picked up. And I know that in some cases, they've pulled families over and taken the man and left the family just sitting in the vehicle. I know that also in the last couple of weeks, a couple of important community members have been taken and detained, pastors in particular, Haitian pastors. how is that impacting the community i i think it is it is it is bringing more people around to support the presence of haitians in springfield i think there are people who were who were silent and when they heard that it was like okay that's enough that's that's that's not right um Um, so it's been that it's, it's, it's left, uh, you know, two congregations without their pastor.

18:05Um, one of the individuals was an associate pastor at the church. Um, pastor Julio, uh, Domano, um, pastor Jobert Adrian was the, he was the lead pastor. So they, their, their congregation didn't meet the next week. I don't think they've met since. So these are guys who are, they are peacemakers within our community. They're providing education to Haitians and helping them learn English and all of those things. And why take them? There's a part of me where it just seems like they are trying to break the will of the Haitian people. I saw a quote from the children of one of the pastors who was taken, and she said, And I think maybe it was God's will that my father was taken because now he can minister to the people inside.

18:59And I was just like, oh, God, like this is a child saying this. Yeah. And he is. He is ministering in the jail. From what I've heard, he's helping to care for other people who are there. But yeah, I mean, Haitians are people of incredibly strong faith. The gentleman who was talking to me about his brother being burned alive, the next thing that he said is, I may die, but I trust God. There's a level of faith that I have never seen before. and that God is a God who somewhere down the road is going to make all things right and is going to deal with injustice and reward people who have been faithful and punish those who've been evil.

19:53So when they were still coming to church, we'd have an awful week of some sort, like the week the Supreme Court ended TPS. And I think, man, they're going to be so down. And they'll come to church and their worship is so exuberant and joyful and they're dancing and singing and praising God. They know that this isn't of God. God is not the one who authors evil. This is our own doing. It's the doing of our government. And we appeal to Senator Husted and Senator Bernie Marino to immediately come out with public statements expressing sympathy to Pierre's family and asking for an end to the electronic ankle monitoring program.

20:48and the same for our Congressman Mike Turner and Jim Jordan is also one of our congressmen here in Springfield. And we're asking them for statements. The Elays and I were trying to get a meeting with Congressman Turner in Washington, and we couldn't get through his staff booking process. So we went to Washington anyway to meet with some other congressmen, and we found out we were on the same flight with Congressman Turner, and our flight was delayed. so we ended up sitting at the airport with him and we had a really good talk it was in i think in some ways it was better catching him off guard spontaneously and he spoke of how good the haitians are um for ohio and for our economy and he is not where maggot republicans are he's not where the president is on immigration issues he he understands the need for secure border He understands the need to deport criminals, which I do too, but he is not for what's happening with the deportations and the ankle shackles.

21:51We'll be right back after a quick break.

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24:19You have a deep history of talking across boundaries, especially in the conservative community. We haven't talked about it, but you worked for years at a conservative Christian university, Cedarville, just a half an hour up the road from Springfield. You left as that university changed. You sort of watched this change take place. It became more conservative. It became more closed off. I think I can characterize it as. I like to tell people that I got retired or I got resigned. You must think a lot about how to talk to people across difference. And so when you're sitting there with a senator, a congressman, is it straight up just like you, the pastor, talking religion?

25:08Is it you talking strategy as someone who, you know, a pastoral job's not apolitical? I mean, it's talking talking the gospel of Jesus and asking for some specific policy changes. I worked, I was a consultant with National Immigration Forum for a couple of years. After I left Cedarville, I helped run a program called Bibles, Badges, and Business for Immigration Reform, where I would take people in business, people in law enforcement, or people in ministry, and we would go to Washington and sit down and talk with congressmen and senators and ask for immigration reform that would keep families together, that would support the rule of law, that would create a secure border, that would treat immigrants with dignity and respect, that would be fair to taxpayers, and that would provide a pathway to permanent legal status for people who had come here illegally but who had been paying taxes and doing jobs and And the kind of people who would be good Americans.

26:17But you say all this and you sound like you're speaking from a different time, a different era. Like, I feel like that stuff is not the conversation, especially among Republicans right now. My guess is that there are lots of Republican legislators who can't wait for Trump to be gone, but don't have the courage to do anything about it. um so yeah i mean the republican party is a shadow of donald trump and you know i i was i matter of fact i think i may still be registered as a republican um but i you know i grew up voting for republicans um there's a movement of many many people who love jesus but don't love what evangelicalism has become.

27:05And my church is comprised mostly of people who have left evangelicalism over Trumpism, the treatment of gay people, how they handle COVID. There's a longing for many young Christians to be a part of a movement of justice. I don't want to preach too much on your show when Jesus launched his ministry the very first thing that he did is he opened a scroll of Isaiah and said I have come to bring justice I've come to help the poor I've come to help the sick I've come to release people who are in prison that's how he introduced himself and many Christians in evangelical churches are not being taught that.

27:58I was thinking about what's been happening in Springfield, and it does seem fundamentally different from, for instance, what happened in Minneapolis. And I wonder if you can talk about that a little bit, like whether and whether you feel like the difference is intentional. Like you've laid out a strategy of, yes, people are being detained, but yes, also a lot of people are being given ankle monitors. So it doesn't look like in Minneapolis cars all over the streets tracking license plate numbers and people with whistles following them. No, that's happening. It is. That is happening. Yeah. There's a very active ice watch group that monitor ice's movement and let people know every single day.

28:48They're out right now. Um, I, I think that, I, I think that the backlash to what happened in Minneapolis was, was so significant that they've realized this is hurting us. So I think they're, they're trying to make themselves look nice right now. Um, matter of fact, I, I videoed one ice detainment and one of the ice agents walked up and tried to hand me a little plastic Jesus, um, which I declined to accept he's just got those in his pocket like yeah i i don't i don't understand it um when i went to when i visited the ice office and gone in with um people getting the ankle monitors ice agents have been over the top polite and seemingly kind um while they are doing something that is awful.

29:46And we, you know, we told them that. We told them that. You know, what you're, what you are, you know, when I, when I saw the person being detained, I said to the ICE officers, what you are doing right now is going to get people kidnapped, raped, and murdered. And the ICE agent said, no, they're all going to get, they're all going to get a fair, fair hearing. It's like, nah, that's not going to happen. So they're, they're trying to put a good face on an awful, awful, awful program. Does that make the work you do harder to kind of reach people and explain what you think of the policy? Yes, I think it does.

30:24Um, you know, we, we've spent, you know, really two years training for this. Um, ever since the, ever since the, uh, horrible accusation about the pets, um, we formed a group called Springfield Neighbors United. We formed another group called G92. We've done lots and lots of training on immigrant rights, on what our rights are as peaceful protesters, of how to video detentions if we see them happening, how to identify ICE vehicles. Hours and hours and hours of that we've been preparing. And I think all the time we were expecting something more like Minneapolis. Um, and part of the reason this is harder is in Minneapolis and in many of the other cities, there were some time boundaries.

31:18Like they came in, it was horrible, and then they left. And it feels like in this case, it's just going to, it's just going to be a steady application of, of pressure and terror. is there something your community needs from those of us who aren't there with you yeah i mean i don't want to make this a fundraising call but the the non-profits and i'm not associated with either one of them there's the um haitian support center saint vincent de paul um they are bearing the weight of paying rent providing food so anything that could help you know send contributions their way would would be helpful haitian support center um went from serving like 20 people a day to 60 to 80 when i showed up and they have three people um and some volunteers so that you know that's something the other thing is you know be ready to come to springfield if anything uh you know like minneapolis comes come and bear witness to what's happening and stand peacefully with us in opposition to it um there are 20 churches in town who are committed to providing sanctuary if if uh haitians seek it my church is not a big church we need lots of people to just stand in the way, um, and to, to, to create a protective barrier.

32:51So be ready to come back to Springfield. Um, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're traveling through town, um, stop. If you go North on the main, the main street, you're going to come to a Haitian restaurant, uh, stop and buy lunch there. Uh, two weeks ago, they did$24 in business the whole week, because no one was coming out. So, you know, supporting Haitian businesses is helpful. If you're a person of faith, you know, come and visit one of our churches. I've had people drive from all over the country to just come and worship with us as an expression of support to the Haitian families who attend and worship here and who are a precious part of our congregation.

33:41I know you have to run. I just want to have one more question, which is about Pierre and his family. How is Pierre's family doing right now? So when I've been there, the mom has been inconsolable. Haitian men often present themselves very stoically. It is kind of a taboo to show fear or to cry. So the father, I've seen him break down. I've held him in his arms while he sobbed. Same with the mom. um but he does he he when in public he tries very very hard not to show it just has a kind of a blank look you know they're they're they're two brothers in the household um one of them just a couple years younger than pierre he loved his big brother um looked up to him because Pierre spoke English.

34:46He handled a lot of family business. And I see that a lot with Haitian children, is they are handling things that normally their parents would because the kids speak English. And the weight on the children who are here is just unbelievable.

35:10Carl, I'm profoundly grateful for your time and your honesty and your witness. Thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you.

35:29Carl Ruby is the senior pastor at Central Christian Church in Springfield, Ohio. And that's our show. What Next is produced by Evan Campbell, Madeline Thames-Dusharm, and Patrick Fort. Paige Osborne is the senior supervising producer of What Next and What Next TVD. Mia Lobel is the executive producer of podcasts here at Slate. Ben Richmond is the senior director of podcast operations. And I'm Mary Harris. You can find me on Instagram at Hey Podcast Mary or on Blue Sky. I'm at Mary Harris. Thanks for listening. I'll catch you back here next time.

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