How Trump Abandoned Ukraine

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2:17Heads up going into the show, today's episode is about a fast moving story. Things may have shifted between the time we recorded and the time you hear this.

2:32In the war between Russia and Ukraine, whose side do you think the U.S. is on?

2:42I ask because over the last couple of weeks, some people have said it's a little hard to tell. America is now an ally of Russia, the Atlantic blared. Russia was losing, enter President Trump, is how a New York Times opinion columnist put it. And then there's what the administration itself is saying. Is the president siding with Russia here? No. Again, that's a false binary. This is Treasury Secretary Scott Besant on Meet the Press. He was there to defend the president's decision to lift sanctions on Russia and buy diesel from them, too. Bottom line, Mr. Secretary, is Ukraine an ally of the United States?

3:29President Trump has made it clear that he wants to end this war, that it must stop. And President Zelensky... This is a yes or no question. The host asks it three times. He's done it since he came into office. And just to the core question, though, does the United States see Ukraine as an ally? I think that we provide the three different things to Ukraine. So that's what you do for an ally. It does not seem like the secretary wants to answer.

4:07Personally, hearing all this talk about who's allied with whom, sometimes I think it all feels a little clinical. Which is why whenever there's some pivot point in the Ukraine war, I like to call up Romeo Krokryotsky. Romeo's a journalist who grew up in New York City, but he's Ukrainian, the managing editor of New Voice of Ukraine and co-host of the podcast Ukraine Without Hype. Usually he's joining me from an apartment in Kiev, but he doesn't live there anymore. I mean, I love where I lived in Kiev. I love my neighborhood. I quite frankly plan to spend the rest of my life there. Um, that is unfortunately not possible.

4:47First, a munitions plant, barely three blocks from my apartment went up, and then another warehouse, a couple of blocks from my apartment went up, and by that time, it's kind of time to leave. The last time we spoke, Romeo was about to have a kid. The kid is a year old now. For him, all this talk about whether the U.S. is still seeing eye-to-eye with Ukraine, it's less important than whether he and his family have what they need to survive. That said, he's got plenty of things to say to folks in Washington. I'll say the number one thing that Donald Trump has done to affect me personally has been launching the illegal invasion and war with Iran.

5:33The logistics, say, make it pretty clear that without the war in Iran, we would be able to purchase or obtain enough Patriot interceptors to last through the winter. Now there are not physically enough Patriot interceptors existing in the world for us to purchase to defend ourselves through the winter. God, that must be scary. Yeah. To be quite honest, I try not to think about it most of the time. As for that question of whether the Ukrainian relationship with the U.S. is breaking, Romeo says the one thing he knows is that the Ukrainian relationship with Donald Trump is already broken. Quite frankly, Donald Trump is not a person you can deal with.

6:18Do you feel like Vladimir Zelensky is kind of realizing that? Like you're watching him realize that over the last year and a half? I certainly hope so. I mean, that would validate my desires, certainly. it's difficult to say, to be quite honest, what runs through Zelensky's head a lot of the time. And even still with his statements, if you really take a look at the words, they're very politic. They're very diplomatic. He doesn't say, for example, the obvious fact that Donald Trump is on the Russian side. He says, well, you know, the Trump administration, we have disagreements. They see things differently.

6:54Ukraine can't be pushed, blah, blah, blah, which is not quite the same response as, well, America is failing us, they're failing the free world, the American president is a dodo, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, he might argue that might not get him the, you know, Patriot missiles he needs or whatever. But nothing else has either, which has been my counter-argument. We've seen what the past four years of this conciliatory policy towards Trump has given us, nothing. Today on the show, what the U.S. break with Ukraine looks like from inside Ukraine. I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to What Next. Stick around.

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10:44Romeo Kokriatski: Do you snore? Did somebody hand you a CPAP and did you quietly stop using it? The mask that never quite seals? The hose tugging at you every time you roll over? A machine sitting abandoned in a closet? Excite OSA works a different way. It treats a root cause instead of managing the noise, and you use it while you're awake. 20 minutes a day, while the coffee brews, while you set your fantasy lineup. An FDA-cleared prescription device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Then you go to bed like a person, nothing strapped on, nothing plugged in. In clinical studies, 90 % of patients saw a reduction in snoring.

11:29Romeo Kokriatski: No sleep study required. Prescribed online, shipped to your door. ExciteOSA at springsleep.com slash sleep20. Code sleep20 for 20 % off. ExciteOSA is an FDA-cleared prescription-only device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Not for everyone. Individual results vary. Risks and benefits at springsleep.com.

12:01I do feel like for an American audience, I want to explain how we got to this place, because I feel like if you turn on the radio, you know, BBC or open the newspaper, the New York Times, you're hearing about this major pivot happening right now. A pivot that, to you, may feel like it's been happening for a while. But I do want to run through what's happened in the last month or so because I do think it feels like an inflection or, you know, an intentional point, right? Like earlier this month, we had Donald Trump announcing he had struck a deal to purchase diesel fuel from Russia, which is a pretty strange thing to do because, you know, it provides a cash infusion to a country whose ambitions we've sought to contain for a very long time.

12:48I wonder if when you heard about this deal, you kind of groaned or saw it as a signal of something breaking or continuing to break. Honestly, I was surprised that they had announced a deal at all and not just a cash transfer. Because essentially there is no difference. The amount of – I was actually covering this yesterday. I believe the contracted amount of barrels of diesel is something like 300 ,000 and 400 ,000, equating to less than half a day of U.S. demand. Yeah, 300 ,000 tons of diesel, 2.25 million barrels. So it is a cash transfer. I mean, if they literally said we're going to go ship pilots of greenbacks to Moscow, functionally, the only difference between that and this is, in this case, Donald Trump's family will be able to personally benefit from the transaction, which is probably why they arranged it this way.

13:52Why? Why does Donald Trump's family benefit personally? His family is involved with holding companies that are also involved in setting up the diesel bill as well as interests in buying luke oil, frozen luke oil assets. That is, assets belong to Russia's state fossil fuel company, mixed up with the Qataris and Saudi investors. It's a whole, how do we say this, ring of corruption that the Trumps have built, all to enable Vladimir Putin to make a few hundred million dollars. Yikes. OK, so that was October 9th. And, you know, arguably at the time, the reasoning, quote unquote, was that the price of diesel is disastrously high, you know, six bucks a gallon where it was.

14:43That's almost double where it was a year ago at this time. And, of course, there are midterm elections happening. But I think most people agree that like this, this release of diesel is not going to cause a significant dent in that number. It was wild to look at Trump himself characterize what happened here. Like he characterized what he was doing as a kind of reward for Russia not helping out the Islamic Republic of Iran in the Iranian war, which was so strange. This is in a truth social post where he said Russia is doing a very, very little, if anything, to help the Islamic Republic of Iran compared to what they could be doing.

15:23And I want to keep it that way and will unless stupid people get in the way. Like, what a strange admission for an American president to make. Like, I'm giving someone a reward for not hurting me and this other. What? What is happening here? Well, it is a strange thing for an American president to say. However, it is completely in character for Donald J. Trump to say. One of the reasons that I don't see this as a pivot is because, quite frankly, Trump has said these crazy, insane things about Ukraine before. He said them during the Alaska summit. He said them during Zelensky's visit to Washington.

16:02he said not quite but similar things during his first term when his involvement in Ukraine led to his then impeachment it's not out of the the range of things that Donald Trump says and I don't recommend people read truth social just for informational hygiene purposes yeah but if you do and if you've done it over time you'll notice that Trump does tend to say the same things over and over again. Then last Friday, Donald Trump signs this executive order, which halts the implementation of a sweeping set of sanctions that were supposed to go into effect against Russia. This was two days before the legislation was supposed to, you know, pop out.

16:48Prior to this executive order, I'm wondering how much you've been following this sanctions legislation, how you've been thinking about it. Because the legislation, it was the Graham Act, It was named in honor of the senator from South Carolina who died in July. And I remember when the legislation was being discussed, where it was like seen as pro-Ukraine because it would sanction Russia. But then also it gave a lot of power to Donald Trump when it came to tariffs. And that seemed like, huh, is that a good idea? We've seen what's happened with tariffs in the past. So maybe tell me a little bit about this legislation and how you'd seen it before last week when the sanctions were suspended.

17:27honestly my um my co-host uh anthony did a deep dive uh into the bill when it was proposed and his analysis um which has as far as we can tell has borne through uh was that the the bill was a nothing burger it was um purely aesthetics the there were the the bill specifically had language in it to that will essentially allow the president to ignore any anything any part of the bill he doesn't like. It's wild. It is simply a thing that says, hey, Congress would like to do these things. But Mr. President, if you feel at any time that you are uncomfortable for whatever reason, you can you can just kibosh the whole thing.

18:10And people saw this like like Virginia Congressman Don Beyer had this quote back in September. Like if this bill passes, I predict Ukraine supporters will regret it when Donald Trump hits our allies with new tariffs and waive sanctions on Russia. And it's like, boop, like then, but two days before the legislation is supposed to go into effect, there it is. Exactly right. That's exactly what happened. It's never too complicated, I think, to tell what Donald Trump is going to do. Just think of the most venial, corrupt thing that a person could do in that position and wait for it to happen. Yeah.

18:42I mean, there are other signs of fraying relationships between the U.S. and Ukraine. There was this news that Ukraine lost access to Star Shield, the satellite system that powers its drones last week. And Starship is this DoD product, government version of Elon Musk's Starlink. Do we know what happened there? Because at the time it was just sort of like, huh, this is very suspect. And then Starship was back online. What did you make of that element of things? Honestly, it's a little shady for me because I don't know if your listeners are aware here, but a couple of months back, Kiev was seeing daily protests against Zelensky because he had fired a, at the time, popular defense minister, Mihailo Fedorov.

19:28And the reason I bring Fedorov up is because Fedorov, and he's a very young guy, I think he's only a year older, maybe the exact same age as me, very, very young. And he is good personal friends with a lot of the Silicon Valley tech defense types, especially Peter Thiel's defense company, Palantir. He is personal friends with Alex Kemp, the CEO of Palantir, along with a bunch of other people from that milliliter. One of the reasons Fedorov was so popular in the first place and the reasons people went out to protest when he was sacked was because he was seen as the guy who could talk to Musk as kind of our guy in Silicon Valley in the tech sphere that could move our case forward.

20:17And then, of course, Fedorov was sacked. He made some domestic blunders, became very unpopular very quickly. However, when he was fired, I think Elon Musk posted a message on Twitter in support of Fedorov. and because of that aspect it's really hard to say what the truth around the whole Starlink Starship SpaceX stuff is at all god it just seems like there are so many like weird relationships where it's easy for something to get messed up and they all somehow link back to the White House or White House adjacent people and then just yesterday there was reporting that the U.S. is going to hold back on sending Patriot missiles to Ukraine there are no Patriot missiles that could go to Ukraine.

21:04They physically do not exist. Yeah. So all these shifts are happening in the U.S.-Ukraine relationship. And while that's going on, Vladimir Putin is signaling how he wants to continue his war this winter. And the plan seems to be bomb, bomb, bomb. Take advantage of the fact that there are fewer and fewer Patriot missiles available to anyone and just take advantage of the fact that Ukraine's energy infrastructure is really fragile at this point and bomb the country into submission. How is this seen inside Ukraine? Honestly, I think stoicism is what people have developed over time. Every winter has so far been the worst winter of our lives.

22:01Like it's gotten worse each winter. Yes. Can you characterize that for me? Like I'm just saying, what was the first winter like, and then the second and the third? What was the thing that you lost each winter that made you feel like it's getting worse each winter? It was the end of the first winter. How do I say the first winter? I'll say the first winter after the start of the Full Scale Invasion. This was the winter of 22 going into 23. Things weren't calm. However, Russia was not quite as severely bombarding random civilian targets. They had recently lost the siege of Kiev. They were smarting.

22:46And while the drone swarms were new, it was not as threatening as dozens of ballistic missiles a night. And the damage at first was shocking, but when we saw that our utilities and our maintenance teams and so on were able to cope and start restoring things relatively quickly, people adapted. It was still tough, but it was a learning experience. The winter afterwards, people were prepared. um we had learned to buy ecoflows businesses had purchased generators what's an ecoflow oh sorry ecoflow is a backup battery you plug it into your outlets when you have power it charges up power goes out you can plug stuff into it to charge um so it obviously ecoflow i think actually opened an office in Ukraine after that winter.

23:53Wow. Because of the demand. I think they're either a US or European company. So interesting. It's like you use the word like Kleenex. Like it's just something everyone has in their house. Nowadays, yeah, absolutely it is. Honestly, it's hard to imagine a person who doesn't have one unless they like freezing. Huh. But yeah, the second winter, we were a bit more prepared. People knew what to kind of look for, what to expect. And then we had the third winter, which I think that was the first time we had a critical lack of air defense. And the power situation became even more unstable. This was last winter.

24:37Yeah, we had the critical lack of air defense. It was also unseasonably cold, which was a major contributing factor. It would have caused a strain on our infrastructure even had we not been in the midst of a full-scale war. With that included, it was pretty miserable. It's interesting. Like, I remember talking to you earlier in the war and you talked about how, like, there were these, like, fun, dancey memes online from folks that were like, oh, the bomb siren goes off and then it doesn't go off. and it goes off and doesn't go off. Like the people were sort of joking about living in war. Is that still something that happens?

25:24I don't believe so, no. Unfortunately, our good humor has begun to fade, I'm afraid. Yeah. I wouldn't say that people are resigned or giving up or close to surrender. It's just, we understand that things are going to be bad for a while still. In the first year, people were really hoping that the war would end within a year. In the second year, people were really hoping the war would end within a year. Nowadays, no one really talks about the war ending. A few hours after I got off the phone with Romeo, The Wall Street Journal released new reporting claiming Elon Musk himself authorized that slowdown of his Starlink system inside Ukraine, and that he did so after a phone call with President Trump.

26:25It's unclear if Musk acted unilaterally or not. After the break, life during wartime with a one-year-old son.

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27:59You know, online, you said that when you look at how Donald Trump is behaving right now, you think he's got a Russian outlook on the war. And I'm wondering if you can explain that to people. Because I don't think you just mean he agrees with his friend Vladimir Putin and has adopted his take. It's more like he seems to have absorbed a cultural norm, which is a norm you reject. So can you just explain what you mean? Yeah, it's really good that you brought that up because I think it's something that does pass people by, that people look at Donald Trump and they say, well, you know, he's friends with Putin.

28:39Yeah, you know, Donald Trump repeats the last thing anyone ever told him. He talks to Putin a lot. Whenever he thinks of Ukraine, he thinks, oh, what did Putin tell me? And then he repeats that. And that is true to an extent. However, that does overlook the fact that Donald Trump fundamentally believes in a world where might makes right, where if you are strong, powerful, and rich, you have the moral right to treat anyone else, anyone weaker than you, however you want to be treated. And if they resist or defend themselves, they are in the wrong. Well, it's cynical, right? It sees being subservient to power as like smart self-defense.

29:24to an extent, but I think that applies more to the courtiers and the hangers-on than Trump and Putin themselves. These are both men who have been right all of their lives, and every single view that they've ever held has been validated, and they have been rewarded by the universe for having those views, no matter how abhorrent or factually wrong those views are. Yeah, you're saying the converse is true, too, which is like, it's not just that like, I'm saying more like he sees Ukraine in the position of being like weaker. And so therefore, the smart thing to do is to suck up to power. And you're saying, right.

30:08And also that implies that Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are morally blessed. Yeah, but it's not just that. I think there's a frustration that I've noticed that Trump has when he talks about Ukraine. And it's not just something that's bothering his good friend. Like, he's not frustrated with Ukraine on Putin's behalf. And it's not just his personal dislike for Zelensky, though he has that as well. it is very much this moral insistence that we surrender because that's how the world should work it feels like we are insulting him by continuing to resist by not making a deal uh by not going for concessions the way he reacts and the way he writes about these things it feels like to me He's personally, like morally offended that we are acting this way.

31:13Yeah. And you see that in Russian culture. You say that's a Russian, specifically Russian POV. That is absolutely a Russian POV. To be a bit crude, there's an anecdote I like to use. You know, the old adage, the Inuits have 20 or 30 words for snow. The Russians have a similar amount of words for prison rape, male prison rape. What? I'm not kidding, no. It is a foundational, fundamental part of modern Russian culture. That is so sad. Well, it's one of the reasons that Ukrainians are so vociferously against being put under Russian rule. Because imagine watching your neighbor, and we all know Russian culture, we all speak Russian.

31:58for almost half of us, it is our native language. So it's not like this is some foreign weird thing. You can turn on their media and see those values being propagated on their primetime television in real time. I mean, Vladimir Putin has come out and said that Ukraine should stop resisting and it'll be over soon. And what is that? Those exact words, if that sounds like the words of a rapist, it doesn't just sound like the words of a rapist. It's knowingly the words of a rapist. Yeah. um you know as we're talking there's there's been this announcement that Vladimir Zelensky is going to meet with Steve Witkoff um Donald Trump's envoy the guy he sends right to meet with the guys does that give you any um hope about where things are going does that seem like steps are being taken maybe what people have characterized as a pivot point in the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, there's a way to salvage it?

33:02No, I don't think there is anything Ukraine can do while Donald Trump is president of the United States that will improve Ukraine's standing vis-a-vis that country. Wow. It's so interesting. Do you think Ukrainians agree with you? Because I remember last time we talked, I think we talked about the fact that a lot of Ukrainians were like, oh, maybe Donald Trump is the guy who's going to get the war to end? I don't know if they'd agree with me, but I will say that the Ukrainian attitude on America has pretty much done a complete 180. Ukrainians very much see what Donald Trump has done as a betrayal.

33:43A betrayal of America, a betrayal of Ukraine, a fundamental betrayal of humanity. And because Ukrainians, like most people who aren't Americans, they identify the political leadership with the country, they ascribe this to all of America and not just Donald Trump.

34:06How are you doing personally? Like last time we chatted, your wife was pregnant and it was like this defiant choice is how you characterized it. Like, I don't want the bastards to decide what I do with my life. And now you have a one-year-old. I mean, I don't regret that at all. I'm incredibly happy. Do you mind sharing his name or no? Oh yeah. His name is Imriel. Oh. Imriel Kukraski. When he was a newborn, I got in the habit of singing him like fairy, like fairy time, bedtime songs, like the itsy bitsy spider and so on. And now whenever I sing those songs to him to calm him down, he will no matter what happens, he'll look at me and he'll smile and he'll laugh.

34:55And it's just the greatest feeling in the world to see your kids smile at you after you sing him a little song. I guess one more question. When we've spoken before, you've talked about not wanting to leave Kiev, not wanting to come back to the United States. Has any of that changed for you? It has, actually. I did leave Kiev, despite my... I really didn't want to. But after a munitions dump blows up three blocks from your apartment, and, you know, your wife is crying at you, saying that she thought the apartment was going to come down, that's not a healthy environment in which to raise a young child.

35:38and to be quite honest like I said it's been nearly five years there is no end in sight of this war and I like I imagine a lot of other people are really really tired of it it would be nice to go somewhere where there is no war and no sirens and I'm not being bombed yeah Romeo I'm always really grateful for your time and your perspective um thanks for coming on the show Yeah, thanks for having me on, Mary. I'm happy to be here.

36:36and Patrick Fort. Paige Osborne is the senior supervising producer of What Next and What Next TBD. Mia Lobel is the executive producer of Podcasts Here at Slate. Ben Richmond is our senior director of podcast operations. And I'm Mary Harris. Go track me down in blue skies. Hey, hey, I'm Matt Mary Harris. Thanks for listening. Catch you back here next time.

37:06Thank you.

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