The Next Epstein Files

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1:45Earlier this week, the Democratic staff of the House Judiciary Committee released a report that is chock full of information. But it's information that might feel familiar to you. It links President Trump to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

2:04This thing is 50 pages long, and a whole lot is here. Like the Wall Street Journal scoop revealing Trump sent that sexually charged birthday greeting to Epstein? That's here. Allegations that the president and Epstein used beauty pageants as a way to find women and eventually assault them, those allegations are here too. One victim says Trump and Epstein liked trophy hunting. Eleven women total allege some kind of abuse. But I wanted to talk to someone who could tell me more about why the Dems would want to release all this now. Jamie Raskin, welcome to the show. I'm delighted to be with you, Mary.

2:44Congressman Jamie Raskin is the ranking Democrat on judiciary. Given how much of the information you're compiling here, given that much of it has been public before in some way or another, why was this report important to you anyway? Well, first of all, there is a lot of new factual detail and information here, including from Beatrice Kuhl, who was the beauty queen from Switzerland, and a young woman at the time who described basically being lured into Donald Trump's hotel room by staff. And then he accosted her and raped her. That story is told here really in detail for the first time. I mean, I basically charged the staff with, let's take everything that we know, everything new that we know from whistleblowers who've come forward to us, put it together about what Donald Trump's role was, as far as we can tell, the emerging case against Donald Trump.

3:54And then let us combine that with what we know about how the Department of Justice has been essentially trying to obstruct justice, trying to cover up all of these crimes. And so for the first time, we put that story all together. This Department of Justice piece is important. Think of this report as a first attempt to build a real case, not just against the president, but the people around him. It's a case that shows who the executive branch is protecting and why. Of course, some folks will point out that for Democrats, releasing a document like this just a week before an election, that might be helpful too.

4:35The timing of this report has raised questions for some people too. Like even MS Now's write-up says this report issued just eight days before the election makes multiple uncorroborated allegations against the president while also detailing discrepancies in his statements about Jeffrey Epstein. What would you say to someone who hears that and thinks there's some kind of political dirty trick happening here? Just read the report. I mean, to begin with, yeah, we demonstrate how they have been lying. For example. The Trump administration. Yeah. Yeah. We demonstrate that President Trump and his staff have repeatedly said, for example, that he kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago.

5:28That's just false. And it's contradicted by a very important source that comes out in the Epstein files, Donald Trump himself, who specifically rejected the claim that Jeffrey Epstein had ever been kicked out of Mar-a-Lago. He was never kicked out. That's just fraudulent. And as to the timing of the report, the Republicans basically said that they were going to go on recess for the final two months of this session. And so we have spent our time well in terms of getting this work done. And I can't even tell you how much time I spent on this report. And I'm proud of the report. And everything there is either completely documented and corroborated, or if it's uncorroborated, because we just have one witness, for example, in the case of Beatrice Kuhl, then people will just need to read it and decide for themselves.

6:22But in any event, this is not a trial, Mary. What we're saying is that there is certainly enough evidence, there's abundant evidence, upon which to launch a Department of Justice investigation. Today on the show, with the midterms looming, Democrats like Jamie Raskin are gunning to dig into the Epstein files again. The question is how. I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to What Next. Stick around.

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9:12I want to start by talking about Beatrice Kuhl. Am I pronouncing her name correctly? Yes. She's a former pageant contestant who, in your report for the first time, accuses Donald Trump of rape. He actually tells her in her telling after the assault, the show must go on. And she proceeds to compete in a pageant, I believe. Tell me how your staff convinced her to tell her story. Well, I can't get into that, but I will tell you that survivors in general, and I've heard from some even since our report came out, are adamant that the truth be told and that all of the details of this nightmare become public and that the perpetrators of these crimes be held accountable.

10:02And it's not just... Partially because her story has changed a little bit. Like she told the Daily Mail in 2024 that it was an attempted assault, not an actual assault. So I was just sort of curious how she came to this new allegation now. Again, our point is that if you think there's an international conspiracy of teenage women to lie about what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, then I suppose you could, you know, cast all kinds of suspicion on what each of these people have said. This is what women go through when they talk about their experience being sexually assaulted or raped. Our point is, look, we're not prosecutors.

10:43We are the Judiciary Committee of the United States House of Representatives, but we oversee the Department of Justice. And all that we see is an attempt to sweep everything under the rug and to create a cover up. And so we put evidence forward to say that is enough evidence for the Department of Justice standards, which is would a reasonable person think there's enough evidence there to justify a further investigation? I can't imagine anybody saying no. I mean, you're hypothesizing that there might be refutations to undermine what she said. And I'm sure they will come forward and try to undermine what she said.

11:22But that requires an investigation. That's not what's happened. Do you see my point? Yeah, no, no, no, no. I mean, I hear what you're saying, which this is the beginning of something. This is like the beginning of laying out a case to build a further investigation as you go. And the evidence is voluminous. There is woman after woman making allegations. We have 11 different women's accounts in here. Yeah. And I think that part of the challenge is something you say right at the top of this report, which is like these allegations do not stand alone. This is a quote. And they're not aberrations. They are remarkably consistent with the extensive public reports of Trump's sexual misconduct at the time.

12:00And in a way, to me, it's like it is the biggest asset and the biggest challenge of doing this kind of work, which is people feel like they know that this has happened and the evidence is everywhere. And so those two things together make it very difficult to do your work. Right. Because there becomes a numbness at a certain point. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I guess I at a certain point, I might have agreed with that. I don't agree with that right now. I think that these women survivors have done such a remarkable job of demanding that there be focus on this. To me, it's at the level of like the child sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church or what's taken place in a number of colleges and university athletic teams with coaches and doctors who are raping the players.

12:54the people who've been victimized by men like Jeffrey Epstein and allegedly Donald Trump. If you read this report, there are allegations there that he's done the same thing. The women who are victimized want justice and truth. And you know what? If we had listened to the women back in 2016, because a dozen of them came forward to say that they had been sexually assaulted or sexually harassed by Donald Trump. And if we had listened to E. Jean Carroll, who has been proven right in a court of law, and Donald Trump is now an adjudicated civil sexual violator, if we had listened to them all, we would not be in the situation where we are now.

13:36Now, but these women who were the survivors of this horrific abuse and conspiracy and sex trafficking network are not going to go away. They want America to understand this and they want to make sure it never happens again. And the report calls for a special counsel to investigate Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. That's what it all leads up to. What we're saying is Todd Blanch obviously cannot be trusted. And I'm going to just go back into the details of what happened with Gillian Maxwell to explain why we need an independent special counsel appointed. Because he went to interview Gillian Maxwell.

14:15They had already declared that there was nothing to see here. They'd already said in a July 7th letter that there is nothing in the Epstein files. There is nothing any witnesses that has ever said, which gives us any reason upon which to base further investigation to see if other perpetrators were involved, either in rape, sexual assault, sexual trafficking, pimping. pimping, any kind of crime. They said there's nothing there. Okay. So from his perspective, it's over. Then the U.S. House of Representatives Oversight Committee subpoenaed Ghislaine Maxwell to come and testify. Suddenly, the number two person in the Department of Justice who had been Donald Trump's personal criminal defense attorney decides, I'm going to go and interview her.

15:10Well, why is he going to interview her if they've already determined there are no cases and there's no case to be made? There's no investigation that's justified. Well, is it because they want to see, they already cited the fact that her testimony had not given rise to any inference that there would be a legitimate basis for investigation. Why did he want to go down and talk to her there? Had they found new leads suggesting they were wrong? Well, obviously not. His interview had nothing to do with trying to find out about anybody, any witnesses story or about any other possible culprit. In fact, when Ghislaine Maxwell went so far as just to mention certain witnesses that the Trump people were afraid of because they might be able to implicate Trump, he quickly redirected her and said, we're not going to talk about individuals here.

16:01No names. So what was he doing there? Well, it seems perfectly obvious to the Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee and to our staff. What he was doing was going down there to satisfy himself that Ghislaine Maxwell would have nothing untoward to say about Donald Trump when she came to testify before Congress, which ended up not happening anyway. But he got whatever assurances he wanted or needed. And what do you know? Abracadabra, overnight, she's relocated and transferred to this very sweet, cushy, cub-fed facility, which did not admit convicted sex offenders like her. But she became the first one to do it.

16:40And not only did she get in there as a convicted sex offender in a totally unprecedented way within a few days, usually it takes six or 12 months to get a prison transfer. And you've got to make this compelling case that you need it. Okay. Not only did she get in there, then she got all kinds of special privileges when she arrived, like, you know, customized food delivered to her cell, room service, a private workout training with none of the people. other prisoners there and on and on secretarial. They would probably say that's for her safety or something like that. But I hear what you're saying.

17:16Yeah, well, I mean, I guess the way I happen to know too much about this, Mary, so forgive me. I can't let that lie. When other witnesses assert that their safety is in peril, what the prison system does is it puts them in a solitary confinement. It puts them into a worse condition. It doesn't upgrade them to the equivalent of the Trump Hotel in a federal facility.

17:46We'll be right back after a quick break.

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21:03So can we talk about turning this report into action? Like, I'm talking to you less than a week out from the midterms. Democrats are feeling very confident in their chances of retaking the House. Your report really does lay this breadcrumb trail to Attorney General Todd Blanche and his role in covering up the Epstein files and sort of presenting them in a particular way. So I'm wondering how quickly a report like this could be used as ammunition to investigate the attorney general if the Democrats do retake the House. Well, the report speaks for itself in terms of what we have been able to find so far, and that's without the subpoena power.

21:45And that is without all of the other investigative advantages that accrue to the majority party. Understand, the Republicans have rejected every investigative request that we've offered, every suggestion for a hearing. There's been no hearing in the House Judiciary Committee on any of this massive cover-up that's taken place. And we're working with our friends on the House Oversight Committee, both to get to the bottom of what actually happened and what are these women trying to tell us and how come they've never been called forward as witnesses to speak to the country, but also to deal with the problem of the Department of Justice itself being corrupted.

22:25Now, a lot of people may become benumbed to it. I think that was your word or anew to it. But the Department of Justice has been sacking hundreds of prosecutors and attorneys and other staff simply because they worked on the January 6th case. And I mean, you're saying there's a lot of things to investigate. There are a lot of things to investigate. But your report does say Attorney General Blanche's actions potentially constituted witness tampering and obstruction of an official proceeding, which are serious felonies. Those are those are big allegations to make about someone who's pretty high up in the Trump administration.

22:58We would like to know what is their justification for Todd Blanche's interview of her and then her subsequent release from her prison facility, her relocation to— Ghislaine. Ghislaine Maxwell's release from her then prison facility and her transfer to this other very sweet assignment that she got in the federal system. There are some huge things that need to be explained as we try to get to the bottom of this. And we try to determine through a real investigation we hope will come from an independently appointed special counsel who's a real special counsel and not under the thumb of Donald Trump and not under the thumb of Todd Blanche.

23:42Uh, we want that person to get to the bottom of the crimes that have been committed that have not been investigated and not been charged. Now, the statute of limitations may run in some cases. Who would appoint a special counsel like that? Would that be? Go ahead. Yeah, it would have to come from the, you know, there were new rules written, and I'm trying to remember exactly what the rules are, if it comes from the attorney general now or if it comes from the D.C. Circuit. Let me double check that. We'll check it out right now. It seems so hard to believe that Todd Blanchard would appoint anyone to investigate himself.

24:21Well, you know, this is the problem that we face when we've got, you know, people in the Department of Justice who do not see their client as the American people and the rule of law, but rather see their client as the president of the United States. They took they took Todd Blanche, who is Donald Trump's personal attorney, and they turned him into Donald Trump's personal attorney general. Well, I guess part of what I'm asking here is like how prepared, what are you prepared to do if the administration resists your efforts to do what you think needs to be done? Mary, if it's all right, let me go back and answer your question before because it is the attorney general.

24:57I was right. It is. Okay. Well, so it's the attorney general. Well, then I guess my question stands, which is like I really— It is the attorney general who would have to appoint an independent special counsel. and so that's obviously not a perfect situation given that this administration has been compromised from top to bottom and it is not only their private intention it's their public philosophy that everybody in the executive branch works personally for Donald Trump I mean the other day I heard Todd Blanche say that he does work directly for Donald Trump that is creating a serious structural crisis within the country.

25:37But I hope that we can create enough focus through this report on the contradictions in their story and the shocking crimes that took place, such that people will say he needs to appoint someone who is a serious independent special counsel to do this. And if they don't, then we are going to have to look for other ways for the truth to come out here. Well, I guess my question for you, You've been to this rodeo before. You have been in Congress for the first Trump administration. You know, what are you prepared to do if you have all this evidence you want to investigate and certain administration officials may just refuse to comply with, say, a subpoena from your committee if you have the chance to do something like that?

26:22What are you prepared to do this time around to make sure they do comply, to make sure you do get what you need, to make sure the American people do get what they need in terms of justice? But one thing that's happening right now is that there are other investigations taking place around the world and at the state level. We have written a letter of protest also against the Department of Justice for withholding documents and essentially trying to prevent the federal government from assisting in investigative prosecutions that may be taking place in New Mexico or in other countries. But there are a number of other countries that have not only acted to investigate, but have already made people pay the price.

27:06And of course, everybody has seen that with, you know, what's taking place in the United Kingdom. You mean in terms of Epstein? Yes. In the UK. Okay. Just want to make sure. I want to be clear. We are going to use every lawful means at our disposal to get the truth out, to conduct hearings, to continue to investigate, to support investigations that are happening around the world and at the state level and other parts of the country. and to expose Donald Trump's personal attorney general for doing everything in his power to cover up Donald Trump's own involvement in these crimes. So Congress is prepared to work with other institutions of accountability globally and at the state level if you find you're being blocked internally.

27:59Well, look, we passed the Epstein Files Transparency Act. they have been violating that act by not turning over a million documents, which they falsely claim are duplicative or redundant or unnecessary. In any event, that's not what the law says. The law says, turn it over. We'll be the judge of that. We don't need them judging that. And that's outside of what the law is. So we will continue to demand that Epstein files be turned over. And we will legislate further potential consequences and sanctions for refusing to comply with that law. So they might think they can just outlast everybody. And I know that this has been their response in a lot of cases.

28:48You know, they've overwhelmingly been losing cases in court on everything from the Kennedy Center to the reflecting pool to nullifying birthright citizenship. And their first instinct when they lose is to go back and try to figure out another way to accomplish what their objective was. And so we get that. We've psyched that out now. And so we know that they're going to continue to try to cover up what took place with the Epstein files. But they've met their match with these women survivors. They're not going to let this alone. Given what you've seen here, given this report, do you think Todd Blanchett should be impeached?

29:26Well, I don't – look, I don't think – unlike the Republicans who just want to throw everybody in jail and impeach everybody and so on, we believe in the rule of law and we believe in the evidence and we believe in facts and we believe in, you know, applying the rules in law that exist. And so all I can say is we are going to follow all of the evidence that we are able to uncover, and we are going to insist that the truth of these events be known. And we are going to vehemently oppose the cover-up that's been taking place in the DOJ.

30:07Congressman, I'm really grateful for your time. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for having me, Mary. It was great to be with you. Congressman Jamie Raskin represents Maryland's 8th Congressional District. And that's our show. What Next is produced by Evan Campbell, Madeline Thames-Ducharme, and Patrick Fort. Paige Osborne is the senior supervising producer of What Next and What Next TBD. Mia Lobel is the executive producer of podcasts here at Slate. Ben Richmond is the senior director of podcast operations. And I'm Mary Harris. Go track me down on Blue Sky. Say hello. I'm Matt Mary Harris.

30:42Thanks for listening. Catch you back here next time.

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