You Can't See Everything

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1:05Thomas how many times have you seen you can see everything uh only two I only two I love that you're like only two for the three hour movie if you care about movies and you are on

1:22Thomas Flight: YouTube, you know Thomas Flight. I saw it back to back. I saw the opening preview on Thursday and immediately knew I dragged my wife to it the next day because I was like, we need to be able to talk about this. So when we decided to have a conversation about the category-defying film, You Can See Everything, Thomas was right at the top of our list. I feel like that's a common reaction. Once you see it, you want everyone to see it. And that is kind of an aspect of the movie itself. There's this impulse that they kind of oblige within the film to immediately want to start scrutinizing and discussing what we're seeing on screen because there's this, it raises so many questions.

2:14Thomas Flight: I know, I know. There is news out there. There's a whole election tomorrow. But come on, this film is a genuine phenomenon. If you've heard anything about it, you have probably heard it chronicles Theranos CEO Elizabeth Holmes' final days before being imprisoned for fraud, that this movie is a co-production of indie content darlings Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim, that it presents itself as a documentary. But that's not all it is. It's like a true crime movie about truth. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's like, it strikes me we don't have the word for this. Like we have the word mockumentary for like, if you're doing something, it's like a silly take on a documentary, but I almost feel like we need new language.

2:59Yeah, yeah. There's a tradition of documentaries that are kind of like this. The one I hear mentioned most frequently is probably Orson Welles' F is for Fake. There's documentaries throughout the history of documentary that have toyed with this space between fiction and nonfiction and this kind of meta reflection on the process of documentary itself. But were any of those like box office smashes? No, this is what's special about this one is, you know, I'm a documentary nerd. I know about all these films that, you know, that do this, but they've never, I mean, even for a documentary period to be having this kind of splash in the box office is kind of unheard of.

3:45And I do have to say, like, I haven't seen such elaborate cinematic secret keeping since The Crying Game in 1992. Like, I don't know if you may have a better example, but that's the only one that came to mind for me when I saw so many people talking about the movie without talking about it. I think just the other day I Googled somebody who is kind of involved in this film and was surprised that, like, none of the top results had anything to do with this movie. Like, even Google was keeping the secret fairly well.

4:17Do you have a good answer when people ask you, because I think this is the question most people have, what is it about this movie that is resonating so deeply? Because I do think there is this effort. It's impossible not to be evangelical about the movie after you see it. You want other people to see it so you can talk about it. And it's like one of the first things I did, I got on the phone with my parents. I was like, well, you guys should really go see it like today, like just go get a ticket. And they're like, really? It's three hours long. And I was like, yeah, you should. Like, why? I think there's two main things here.

4:53The first is that it's really well made as a film. The craft of how it's edited, how it's shot, the structure of the narrative. That's your catnip. It's tense. It draws you in. It keeps you on the edge of your seat. It's just a good movie in that regard. But I think beyond that, it's also capturing a feeling that I think is resonating with a lot of people. And it is that feeling of trying to navigate this incredibly complex media environment that we all live in, where, you know, we increasingly might be suspicious of how real or true are some of the things we're interacting with on our screens, in the media landscape, and the feeling of sort of disorientation that comes along with that.

5:41And this movie, it kind of gets down to the heart of that, captures that in a character that we can then all go and talk about. And in the process of talking about it, kind of reflect on and discuss how we perceive truth or objectivity, subjectivity, these like larger ideas.

6:02Thomas Flight: Today on the show, spoilers ahead. We're going to set politics aside and talk about the movie you cannot stop talking about. I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to What Next. Stick around.

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9:03I think to fully understand why people are talking about this movie so much, we got to go back and like tell the story of how the movie came into the public consciousness. Because it is not just a success of filmmaking, I don't think. I think this movie is a success of marketing. yeah um nathan fielder and lance oppenheim you know they they let people know that they had been documenting elizabeth holmes and her husband billy evans for three years but they they do it by telling people right when they're ready to release this thing and and setting out there one intriguing clip which is shot in a arresting way it's like a close-up on holmes's face and Fielder and it's like, are you telling me the truth?

9:47Are you telling me the truth? I don't have anything to deceive you on. Of course I'm not deceiving you. I'm engaging with you as a human being.

9:58Why would I deceive you? There's no, there's no reason for me to do that. And that's it. When you saw this clip, what did you think? I was, I was hooked immediately. I think as everybody was. And I'm glad you're bringing this up because now that the film has been such a success in the box office, we're kind of forgetting this little moment that happened before it even came out where the whole internet, it felt like, was obsessing over this clip for a minute. And I think that was a great move to focus in on that moment because it captures so well, kind of distills some of the core questions of this documentary where we're seeing Elizabeth Holmes look Nathan in the eye and say, I'm not deceiving you.

10:51And a lot of us are, you know, certainly bringing our preconceptions about whether or not she is telling the truth coming into this. But then it's not just us scrutinizing whether or not she's telling the truth. It's us scrutinizing if she believes what she's saying. And then how do you, if you're in Nathan's position, respond to that? you know he's kind of playing this proxy role for the audience and having to grapple with like well what do I even do with somebody who seems to be lying to my face and yeah I think I think that just captures the the drama of of this film so well. We should introduce Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim to people who don't know them because I feel like they're two people who have been kind of indie creators made independent names for themselves.

11:46And part of the appeal of this movie was they're working together. So it's a little bit like a Marvel cinematic universe of nerds kind of situation. So maybe describe like what they're known for, for those who aren't converted yet. Yeah, that's a tough call because they both kind of play in this very nebulous, strange area. I'll start with Oppenheim, whose work I was introduced to through the wonderful film, some kind of heaven which is about the villages in florida it's the the country's largest yes and it's not just the fact that he's documenting a place like that it's the way he documents things some kind of heaven it almost looks like a wes anderson movie or something like that it has this beautiful staging very kind of picturesque cinematic imagery and uh he's he's gone on to make some other series most recently Ren Faire which was a mini series documentary about a huge renaissance fair and again the his filmmaking very much draws you into kind of the fantasy that a lot of the characters I'll call them or subjects of the documentary that he's making are engaging with so he's he's a director who's for a long time been interested in examining subjects that are engaging in some type of performance for the camera and living in a world that is perhaps fantastical on some level.

13:10And he underlines it with this beautiful lighting. Yes. And like extreme close ups. And so it's like he has this specific aesthetic where he's telling a story about real people, but then he's kind of he's shooting it in like the most glamorous way possible, I would say. Yeah, which is, you know, unusual for documentaries. A lot of documentarians, their impulse is to strive for this kind of as naturalistic an approach as possible, because we want things to feel real when we're making a documentary. And he's kind of going the other direction and saying, I want this to feel a little bit like a fantasy, even though it is reality.

13:49So that's the background he's coming out of. And then you have Nathan Fielder, who has been doing, he did a comedy show on Comedy Central for a long time called Nathan For You, where he was doing these segments about businesses where presumably he's going in to try to help a small business improve their business. One of the main reasons Alan has such a hard time competing with Best Buy is because of their aggressive price match policy. But if Alan dropped his prices so low to make his TVs virtually free, according to Best Buy's own policy, they would have to match that price too. The plan? Use Best Buy's price match policy against them to get Spears an endless supply of$1 TVs.

14:33Um, it's a great idea. but the whole thing's kind of an ironic bit and you're not sure how much the people on the show who are participating are in on it, how much of a character Nathan himself is playing. A lot of prolonged eye contact. Yeah. He's the master of kind of just sitting in an awkward moment or an exchange that feels very cringeworthy and outlasting the other person and just holding beyond what most of us would be able to bear. And then he made another show that has had two seasons, the rehearsal. And this has gone even deeper down that rabbit hole. It's kind of this strange world where he's constructing false realities to allow people to rehearse scenarios from their life.

15:25And it's hard to describe what that show even is. But again, it's playing with the audience's perception of what is real, what isn't, you know, what does it mean to perform for a camera? What does it mean to think about what we're watching and how much of that is real? So, okay, so let's talk about the movie. Front half of the movie, essentially just like a documentary about Elizabeth Holmes last few days of freedom before going to prison. Nathan Fielder, eventually he's like living on her property, essentially. And he's trying to convince her to admit that she's committed fraud, which she's been found guilty of.

16:06So this is, you know, it could be a moment of her like saying like, oh, yes, I did this thing and I'm coming to a new realization. But she just digs in and she won't do it. She seems almost mystified by the allegations. And then it's complicated by the fact that her husband, Billy Evans, is there. He seems to both like crave the attention of the cameras and then also want to keep want to control what they're doing. So you're sort of in this very tense moment with tense people and you don't know what to make of it. He doesn't seem to know what to make of it. And then it's all shot in this beautiful Oppenheim way.

16:41It's always sunset, as far as I can tell, or sunrise. Like, these are the only two options. Always kind of beautiful. It's funny. Like, someone in our Slack was like, oh, I knew someone who worked as a nanny with them. And everyone's like, they had nannies? Because you just never see them. Do you know what I mean? Like, there are things you don't see in this. But you do see them wrestling with Nathan Fielder over the meaning of what they've done. You also see them like restarting a company that's essentially trying to be Theranos 2.0, which is like, what is happening here? Here's a question for you.

17:18Originally, in the first few days of this film being out, one of the things that Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim were saying was Nathan Fielder wasn't even supposed to be in the documentary. But it's almost it's it strains credulity when you watch it because you're like, he's such a huge part of it. Like, I don't know how this thing would exist without him being there pressing on these people and like being an awkward presence in their home. Do you believe that? I can imagine it. I'm curious how long that that actually went on, that period where he wasn't involved. You know, that might have been the first day for what we know.

17:54documentary is interesting especially when you're shooting it in that kind of this observational way where you're really trying to respond to what's there instead of construct something and from what i've heard in the interviews i've listened to it really sounds like they didn't know what if this was even going to be anything going in they apparently negotiated a like a kill switch with a24 to say like we we want the option of backing out of this because we don't know is going and filming with them going to produce something that's worth watching. So I can believe that they were having to experiment and kind of figure out what this was going on, but it seems like they must have stumbled upon what was actually fascinating here pretty quickly, which is what you're talking about, the tension between Billy and Elizabeth and Nathan himself and kind of this underlying drama of them clearly wanting to construct a certain version of themselves for the cameras and Nathan not really wanting to let that happen, to kind of want to poke at it and get straight down to business.

19:03And that conflict is what's creating the cinema that is that first half of the film. Right. And then eventually Elizabeth Holmes goes to prison and you kind of look at your watch and you're like hold it there's a lot of time left and that's when and this is the biggest spoiler all of a sudden amanda seyfried enters the scene and she's of course played elizabeth holmes in the dropout and she is kind of brought in to observe you the it's presented as if she's she's watched the first half of the film though honestly who knows what she's watched because all along this you're questioning who knows what when like part of what i think makes this a success is that the movie is like this stew of really modern aesthetics and ideas like there were parts of it that reminded me of a podcast you have conversation between nathan fielder and amanda seyfried that then they layer with reenactments which felt like what i've heard done on podcasts narrative part podcasts right um amanda seyfried basically becomes like a co-nerrator They're like multiple perspectives being articulated at once.

20:16At some point, it becomes kind of a caper, like Amanda Seyfried's like coming with Nathan Fielder. Like, I'm going to go talk to Elizabeth Holmes' husband and try to suss out what's really going on here. Like, it has all of these very modern things happening, plus the like beautiful scenic stuff. Plus, it's dealing with money and power because Billy Evans, Elizabeth Holmes' husband, is so wealthy. and he has all these like kind of tokens of a certain kind of wealth whether he's like man I really love like Charlie Kirk or like the multiple beverages he's drinking at the same time like he's got a Celsius I don't know like was was that what made it hit to you just sort of like this stew of things all at once or was there one moment where you're like this is where I think it's really working.

21:03I mean, when Amanda shows up, I was already engaged. I was already interested. But that's where it kind of crosses over this threshold into being something that feels, I think, unique and fresh and like a new experience. And there's no like gotcha. There's no like music cue to be like, you should think this is weird. No, it's such an interesting choice because it is weird, but it's just presented straight like a documentary. For people who are familiar with nathan fielder's past work that that's the moment where it it truly becomes a nathan fielder documentary it feels like that that strange stew of all these different things and layers that that is so difficult to describe is kind of what's going on in the rehearsal where where there's just so many things happening you're not you're not quite sure you know where the reality starts and ends and and and yeah there's a threshold that it crosses and then it it kind of works excellently as a second half to the movie too because it allows you to already start kind of examining and and thinking through and processing what you've just watched that that thing you're so eager to do with other people who have seen the movie or your friends if you go see it with them as soon as you leave the theater you kind of already start to see amanda and nathan doing together reflecting back on some of the footage there's a scene where literally they have laptop and they're replaying this one clip of something that Elizabeth said over and over and then arguing about what it might have meant and if she knew the truth or and just to kind of give us a glimpse of this thing that we all do you know so many of us will engage with a piece of media that way where we might see something and we might go did you think they were lying is that true and then we might replay it and that's that's a part of a big part of our lives in a lot of ways these days but it's rare we get to see that reflected on the screen so i i think there's something really unique about that um for the audience even even beyond the ways it's it's commenting on the film itself does the open grappling with what is true make this film more honest or

23:24not? That's one of the big questions, right? So one of the things I've been thinking about in how we think about documentary is there's always an opportunity anytime a film crafts a narrative for that narrative to alter the truth. A lot of documentaries, especially ones that are shot in this kind of observational style are about presenting something that feels like kind of an unadulterated view of something that actually happened. That's what you want it to feel like for the audience most of the time. And that's how it feels a lot of the time. Even if we know, okay, there's some level at which like the editing could rearrange the words or the camera angle might change our perception of how something happened.

24:11Instead, this movie made me like a conspiracy theorist yes exactly i was like i want to see your dance uh so you know you can respond to that as as documentarians by kind of pulling back the curtain and going you can see everything you know you're not just seeing everything about elizabeth holmes you we're letting you see everything about how we made this documentary and and the details about the deal that was happening behind the scenes with a24 or whatever but we should say like a big a big thread here is like was Billy paid? Was Elizabeth Holmes' husband, did he negotiate a deal to be paid for whatever you're watching on the screen?

24:46And that's like a through line of the movie. Like was he paid? Did she know? All those sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. And that there's even questions there as you're watching it where suddenly you hit this moment where you're like, oh, am I, did I pay for a ticket that maybe is then going into this? Am I lining this guy's pockets? Yeah. And suddenly your own complicity and the ethics of the documentary kind of become an issue that you that you know hopefully people are thinking about as as they're watching this uh and all those questions i think are important because they're relevant not just to this documentary but a lot of the media we watch and are things i think we should be considering as we approach any kind of documentary uh but to answer your original question does pulling back the curtain make it more truthful or or make it more trustworthy you know I I struggle with that and and I think I think there's a way in which potentially it could I want to kind of like trust somebody more who's who's maybe revealing their their bias that's not necessarily the right word but but revealing their point of view yeah exactly um but I think that can then also become another potentially a tool or a thing that that sort of makes us feel more comfortable and and potentially opens us you know that's that's essentially what elizabeth is doing she's going yeah sure see anything i'll i'm i'm an open book you know she's feigning this kind of this kind of openness this kind of authenticity and then presumably doing that as a means of luring us into a narrative that she's trying to construct.

26:23So I think the question remains, and I think it's one that the film is deliberately trying to provoke, is are the filmmakers doing that as well? You know, is this like sense of openness of like, oh, here's how we do, here's look behind the curtain. Is that a way of luring us into a narrative that perhaps they are trying to construct with the film?

26:49Thomas Flight: we're gonna be right back after a quick break

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29:14Elizabeth Holmes and this documentary, they both seemed emblematic to me of something important and very very of this moment which is our current willingness to let people who have done bad things continue to explain themselves our desire for that like we live in this era where everyone's got a platform and they can flood the zone with whatever they think it can change minds and frankly this is a three-hour movie that is obsessed with this person um and at the end one of the questions really is like after three years of filmmaking did Nathan Fielder basically uh get duped by which he he kind of presents as like an open question and like you should consider it because I'm the film.

30:08It's interesting because he's being honest about it once again, but also problematic. You know, I don't know. Did you struggle with that with this? Yeah, I think I think that's something that we should be keeping in mind when we think about this documentary. I mean, even to go back to the issue of whether or not Billy got a cut of the prophets spoiler here but at the very end of the film it's revealed that they released that claim on the prophets but you know one of the things that they reveal is that they essentially crossed what is traditionally considered an ethical boundary with a lot of documentaries where you don't pay subjects because then that calls into question the the veracity and and sort of unbiased nature of the piece so it's interesting that they reveal that they they were willing to cross that line at a certain point and then it turned out all right in the end but you know you still have this question of okay what does it mean that they made this thing even knowing that maybe he would eventually profit um you know presumably they could have pulled out if he he never um you know released that that that claim but but you know that's an open question uh i really wanted to see the documentation.

31:32I felt like as I was learning that because I felt like the filmmakers must have known, well, there's no clause in here that says we can't reveal the details of this agreement as part of our filmmaking. And that's going to be our trump card. And it was just, it was wild. But of course, I'm like filling in that detail. I'm just sort of like, how would I think about it as a producer and journalist? You know what I mean? Like, how would, how could I make this work. And it's wild. And then you just start thinking about all the documentaries that are 100 % subject endorsed, like literally anything made about Beyonce or Taylor Swift.

32:10So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think to answer your original question, though, I think there is, you know, that's one of the interesting questions I've seen people discussing is, okay, some people, I think it's probably a minority based on the responses I'm seeing, but it does seem like some people come away from this potentially feeling a little more sympathetic to Holmes. And there's a question of, is that a, was that her, you know, that's obviously her goal. Is that the grand plan? Inviting cameras into their space in the first place is to invoke some kind of sympathy. So if that's happening on some level, even if it's for a few people, is are the filmmakers falling into that trap um i think you know again i think that's some what kind of saves it for me is that i think the documentary itself is very aware of this and probably hopefully accomplishing more a net positive benefit for the audience in how it's hopefully pointing fingers not just at itself but a lot of our larger media ecosystem and documentaries and kind of inviting us to have a little more epistemic skepticism about what we're watching, about what might be happening behind the scenes, about whether or not we should trust filmmakers who are crafting a narrative or showcasing people like this.

33:34So I hope that message isn't getting kind of lost because I think that that's a very important part of the film and what it's trying to convey. I mean, one of the things that struck me is the differing reactions between men and women to Elizabeth Holmes on this documentary. And you mentioned you brought your wife to it so you could talk about it. I'm just curious if you saw that in your own life. I would characterize it in my own life as just being like, I don't think I was particularly sympathetic to Elizabeth Holmes afterwards. I was kind of like, no, she lied. She lied. But she also seems to see the value in allying herself with powerful male figures who can protect her in certain ways, do dirty work in certain ways.

34:18And that seems quite clear in her relationship with her husband, Billy. But I don't know if you saw a different reaction, men, women, your wife, you. I was more sympathetic in the first viewing. Part of that was there were certain details that I didn't know viewing it the first time that I kind of like quickly caught up on that evening. uh and then also i was it was an emptier theater that was kind of quiet and i was yeah i was just by myself and it felt more sinister the the whole situation with her and billy felt more uh yeah it just felt darker view viewing it kind of in a solitary uh setting like that the second time i watched it it was a packed out friday night screening people were laughing it was it was very it was very clear that the audience was not on her side so that combined with the fact that i had i had learned a little bit more about some of the facts of the situation made me less sympathetic to her the second time around but i mean there's definitely layers to that i think you know the the theater i saw it in friday night when when amanda is is saying we should find a way to break them up there were women in the audience who were cheering and clapping yeah like let's tell me louise this thing yeah so i think there's there's ways in which you know maybe maybe men are perceiving her in slightly different ways that might lead to to more sympathy but then i think i think some women might be seeing the dynamic between her and billy potentially as you know with a clear view uh but but i think that's that's all part of what makes this so interesting is we all get to look at this thing we saw and and then have conversations about how what we perceived and how our perception might differ and i think that's that again connects back to some of the questions the documentary itself is asking about what is truth and how do we perceive reality.

36:26Okay, so big question. Should this movie win an Oscar? And if so, for what? I would love, I think as a film nerd, as someone who's a big fan of documentaries, I would love to see this go far at the Academy Awards just to see a documentary get some play. As far as what it should win for, I think there's a lot of things it'll be up against. I haven't had a chance to see yet. So it's hard to have an objective view. But the cinematography, I think, is excellent. I think it would be fun to see Amanda get the supporting actress nomination. I was kind of wondering if Nathan Fielder could be best supporting actor.

37:12But then it's like, if you do that, is it also a documentary? Like, what are you saying? I feel like in some ways it's the ultimate judge, even though it shouldn't be the Academy awards making this decision but like it is it is a moment to just ask like what was this thing yeah yeah yeah and uh those those layers if it does get some nominations for categories that are traditionally reserved for for narrative fictional films uh i think that would be great because i think this is a conversation we we should be having um because documentary is a genre but and it can be journalism it can provide a very objective view of kind of reality or the facts but it also uses all the tools that are available to a fictional filmmaker to craft a feeling in the audience or to craft a narrative and it's an extremely powerful medium and form for kind of altering or manipulating or reframing what appears to be the truth.

38:20So yeah, I think that's something people, viewers should be aware of as just a part of their media literacy. When you did your deep dive into this movie, you kind of end it by saying, if you had to characterize it, you'd say this is a horror movie, which I thought was fascinating and not untrue if it's a horror movie who's the monster that's a good question i think you know maybe there's not a monster maybe it's more psycho like the psychological existential cosmic dread uh you know there is there is the villain of course who is billy or perhaps elizabeth or perhaps their strange toxic relationship or whatever's going on there but but i think deeper than that beyond that what what truly feels unsettling to me is this idea that someone like elizabeth might be trapped in this world where she's trying to use the media to kind of restore to build something and restore her own uh her own reputation and things like that but the the more she tries to do that the deeper it digs her into this hole i think the viewer's the villain maybe the camera maybe the camera it also raises this other question which is like why is every breakthrough internet adjacent hit of the year a horror movie you know what i mean like obsession backrooms like why i i don't love that for us no no might be a sign of the times i think we're all a little on edge and and art that kind of reflects that or conveys that it is resonating with people right now so hopefully it's a it's a momentary trend yeah thomas i'm really grateful for your time.

40:27Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so much.

40:30Thomas Flight: You can find Thomas Flight on YouTube where his handle is simply Thomas Flight. One more thing, my heteronormative brain basically assumed Elizabeth Holmes and Billy Evans are married. They're not. They just share a couple of kids and some business interests. All right, that's the show. What Next is produced by Evan Campbell, Madeline Thames-Ducharm, and Patrick Fort. Paige Osborne is the senior supervising producer of What Next and What Next TBD. Mia Lobel is our executive producer of podcasts here at Slate. Ben Richmond is the senior director of podcast operations. And I'm Mary Harris. Go yell at me on Blue Sky.

41:06Thomas Flight: I'm at Mary Harris. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.

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