Why 1 in 4 Brokers Will Need This Overlooked Benefit Before Age 65

0:27This podcast features Michael Vincent and Ryan O 'Leary and Ryan Frame and Malcolm Harris.

0:30Malcolm Harris: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to a Friday edition of What The Truck. I am your host, Malcolm Harris. Got a full house on deck today here on August the 14th. And let's make it happen. Of course, joining us from What The Truck West is my man. Looking good. We didn't even talk in the group chat and we still got the red on. Mr. Michael Vincent. Mike, what's up, boy? Hey, baby. Greetings from 146 Media Studios with the Trek West in Fort Worth, Texas. Yes, sir. How are you, brother? I'm doing great, man. What's going on? Look at this. Three ducks on the pond over there. You know, I want to introduce you to my friends.

1:14Malcolm Harris: We normally do on deck, and we still will, but I just want to give you guys a little precursor. These are the Ryans, okay? I know. Are they stepbrothers? They might as well be. Right, guys? Yeah, Ryan Square. Ryan Square. There they are.

1:31Malcolm Harris: Oh, man. No, we're excited, man. Cody never fails, bro. I told Ryan before. Oh, look at that. Boom. With the fade. The blur. The blurring. We officially have room for activity. That was a dream sequence, right? You got to go. Time to do karate in the gym. Yeah, baby. Oh, man, it's going to be a fun episode. It's going to be a good episode. I'm excited. It's crazy, but the last names aren't the same, bro. No, they're not. They're not. Do we got to pay bills before we get into all the good stuff? Yes. You know we got to pay bills. No, we got to eat some knockies first. We got to eat some knockies.

2:13Malcolm Harris: We got to do all the things, all right? On deck, of course, we got the Ryans. I want to talk about them real quick. Of course, to my immediate left, we're going to have Ryan Frame, the managing associate with Ashford Advisors, as well as Ryan O 'Leary to his left. Man, I've known Ryan for quite a long time, man. He's a financial representative at Ashford Advisors as well. So we're going to talk a little bit about disability insurance and why it's one of the most overlooked pieces of financial protection for people in the industry, especially commission-driven roles like being a freight broker.

2:44Malcolm Harris: So for all my brokers out there, make sure you guys listen in to this conversation because it is going to be fantastic. And then the principal at UHY is in the building. He's looking good, too. Charles, I see you. Mr. Charles Clevenger is in the building. Tariffs, you guys know they're getting complicated fast with Section 122, Section 301, Section 232 all in play. Charles is breaking it down for us about what business leaders actually need to be watching and how supply chains can take a hit no matter what trade policy does next. So between Charles, my two Ryans, my man Michael Vincent, it's going to be one heck of a show as we head into your weekend.

3:20Malcolm Harris: So buckle up and get ready to go. All right? I figured we'd just talk football. Yeah, that too. Preseason. That as well. Preseason looking good so far, fellas. Y 'all watched the preseason last night at all? Yeah, I watched a little bit of the Bengals game. Yeah? You know, Burrow getting his first sack of the season. I mean, it's like, what are they doing? Like, they're wasting Joe Burrow. It's like, you know what? You need an offensive line. Nope. Just throw it to Jamar. just throw it to Jamari like it's okay yeah you're right they're wasting a golden opportunity with a great player you might as well just you know what I mean that just sucks for Joe because you know I mean it's the luck of the draw right I mean he could be like a really like standout hall of fame quarterback I agree I wholeheartedly agree oh well you know what I mean my prediction for that is I think Joe Burrow is going to be traded to the Los Angeles Rams at the end of the year.

4:18Malcolm Harris: You think? For like Puka Nakua, three first round picks, a bunch of stuff. I don't think so. I think LeBron's going to recruit him to the Sixers. Okay. I'm so sick of you. We have not been on air for four minutes and you're coming at my king and it's all right. Or is that like, is that kind of a mixed metaphor of sports or something? Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's all right though because. Who makes these knockies? These are delicious. Let's hear it, man. Well, it's Gnosis Freight, for those that don't know. Ladies and gentlemen, if you are still checking carrier websites, copying container data into spreadsheets, and chasing updates through email chains, you've got to get Gnosis.

4:55Malcolm Harris: It's an AI operating system for global logistics, one platform to track every single container, automate execution, and protect your margins across the full container lifecycle. I'm talking 99 % coverage of all global container traffic. Companies have saved millions of dollars by using Gnosis. If you want to do the same, just follow these instructions. Right now, go to gnosisfreight.com and then book a demo with them. Tell them that the bald guy and the dude sent you off of what the truck. All right, again, that is gnosis freight. And if you want to meet the bald guy. You said what? You said what?

5:28Malcolm Harris: I'm sorry. I said, you the bald guy now? Yeah, I'm the bald guy. Look at that, man. Oh, look. That's, look, you freshly shaven and waxed, bro. Oh, ready to go. Ready to go. Yeah. It's Friday, dude. I'm actually getting a beard trim at my barber. My barber's name is Teddy. So I'm going to go see Teddy here in the next probably two hours after this episode. And I got to get fresh for the weekend. Tell Theodore I said hi. Well, if you want to tell us hi, you should come tell us hi. October 27th and the 28th at the Future of Freight Festival. I'm talking F3. I was with the Ryans this morning, gave them a tour of our entire operation.

6:05Malcolm Harris: And we met the people that put this on. I'm talking Miss Jen Wiggins as well as Ashley. So for those that don't know them, you can check them out as well. They are putting on the biggest spectacle for Freight Waves this year. They're the real deal. The signal. The real deal Holyfield is going to be the 27th and the 28th. Tickets are on sale now, so make sure you guys are checking it out. Guys, we're going to have the best demos. We're going to have the Freight Tech 100. We're going to have dinners. We're going to have much, much anticipation about announcements being made in the space. You would be a fool not to be here.

6:37Malcolm Harris: And I know what you're thinking. Hey, times are tough. You know, I'm looking at my budget sheet, not sure if I can afford the cost of admission. Well, I got something for you. It's a code by the name of Take20. All right. So 20 % off right now of admission into the Future of Freight Festival. It is the biggest event in supply chain this year. You do not want to miss out on F3. All right. So that. F3. That is the business. But before we get to this great interview, I just want to let you know that Ryan O 'Leary, as well as Ryan Frame, are speaking on their own accord. All right. So with that being said, these are views.

7:18Malcolm Harris: What's that mean? These are views. Well, listen, we have legal representation that we have to get to. These are opinions and views of their own. And I want to just make that perfectly clear with that. This is not in any shape, form or fashion representing Ashford Advisors. this is for them they are part of Astrid Advisors however uh just want to make sure that that is perfect and clear these are views and opinions of their own all right so with that being said I want to welcome that's a good thing I want to welcome the Ryan officially to what the truck all right fellas how we doing it's good to see it yeah thank you for having it yeah man um it's fantastic we we always when I saw this on there I was like O 'Leary I know that name what do you know that name I know that well actually I do know I do know Ryan O 'Leary the guy sitting there but that name is famous and infamous.

8:05You know what I'm saying? With what? You ever heard, you ever hear this little thing, this little campfire called the great Chicago fire? No,

8:13Malcolm Harris: I have not, but I know there's a story time. No, no. You know, Cody, show them what I'm talking about here, bro. You know what I'm talking about here. Oh no. Hey, look at this. You never heard the story of Miss O 'Leary's cow that started the great fire in 1871 at burnt Chicago to the ground? No, but now I'm There's real footage right there. Cody found this footage from 1871 and cleaned it up just a little bit. It's amazing how good the cameras were in 1871. Look at that gas caddy's carrying. Excellent job, Cody. That's very time-appropriate. Time-period appropriate. This is crazy. The O 'Leary name is famous, dude.

8:57The O 'Leary name is famous, dude. I mean, there's kings, there's warriors, there's all kinds of things associated with the O 'Leary. The biggest famous one in the United States is Chicago Fire in 1871. For 122 years was blamed on Catherine O 'Leary. And the O 'Leary, seriously. And the O 'Leary family has fought to clear her name. It was all BS. It was complete BS. They didn't know who did it. They admitted they didn't know who did it. And they made up this story that came out of her barn and she did it. and the story's stuck. She's completely innocent. It took until 1997, from 1871 to 1997, to clear the O 'Leary name and say, look, they really didn't do this.

9:39Malcolm Harris: Ryan. That's messed up, bro. The O 'Leary tribe is officially free. You can walk around, chat a new game, be okay. Yeah, so when you see him, quit throwing water on him and stuff like that. When you see him, he didn't do it. It was not his family. That's right. That was not real footage. And here's a cool one, though, man. And so I was looking up his stepbrother, Ryan, right?

10:07And this is a pretty cool story, right? He went to Lipscomb University, right? Christian University, which is fantastic, bro, over there by Nashville. And keeping him in that tradition, dude, this is pretty cool. Most people don't know this, but there was a POW, World War II POW camp there where they kept German POWs in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee. There it is. That's an actual picture of some of the dudes, right? Now, check this out. Here's the difference in why America is so great and how Christianity and Lipscomb University, et cetera. These dudes, when they left, they wrote letters back to the people thanking them.

10:48Really? You can find them. Yeah, you can find them at Lipscomb University. Dude, I had no idea. Yeah, no, the letters are there. Now, look, I looked up one. I can't verify this is not certified or anything, but just let me read you what I found on the internet as one of these letters, right? Please, brother, go ahead. Okay, check it out. Dear Mr. and Mrs. Thornton, I hope this letter finds you well. I am home in Stuttgart, but my heart still thinks of Tennessee and your kind farm. I remember the summer days working in your fields, the heat of the sun, and how Mrs. Thornton brought us cold water and bread.

11:17You treated us not as enemies, but as men, and I will never forget that. Germany is cold now, and much is destroyed, but when I'm sad, I think of your smiling face in the peach tree by your barn. These memories keep me warm. I don't know if we'll ever meet again. The world's taken so much from all of us, but I want you to know you showed me kindness when the world was cruel. You reminded me that men can be brothers even when nations are enemies. Thank you for this. I will carry it always with deepest gratitude and respect, Heinrich Mueller.

11:47Malcolm Harris: This is awesome, man. It's pretty fantastic stuff, dude. I mean, I was going to keep on the brother, stepbrother theme and all that kind of stuff. When I ran across that, I was like, all right, we got to throw some light on this because that's pretty fantastic history right there, dude. You know, I just want to say, you got this rundown extremely late because I went to a workout class this morning. And for you to be able to have pulled this this fast, I'm very impressed. I thought they had a restraining order. I thought they had a restraining order. or you weren't allowed to go to that ladies' Pilates class.

12:20Malcolm Harris: Hey, listen, man. You know what I'm saying?

12:27Malcolm Harris: Dude, I'm very impressed. That's your, of course. So every episode, I mean, with our guests, we have research that, you know, Mike does. And it's my favorite part of the show because we get to see y 'all as, like, real human beings, like, behind who you guys are. And I never tell our guests about it because I like the authentic reactions. Just to be like, how do you know that? Like, it's a really cool aspect of the show. He pulled me up. I was like, oh, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. What is it? Mike's going to find something. He's going to find something. It's either going to be good or it's going to be a lie.

12:59So there you go. Right, right. He's going to find something.

13:02Malcolm Harris: He's going to find something. And Charles, I know you're waiting in the wings. You will be also researched about. So you just wait, bud. We're going to get to you here in about 20 minutes. Oh, we're going to get to him. I'm all up above, man. And he's a Boilermaker. So you know I'm bringing the heat. Oh, boy. Yeah, he's bringing the heat for sure. I want to bring the heat right now because I'm going to start with Ryan O. All right? So we're going to go Ryan O, Ryan F, Ryan O, and so on and so forth. All right? All right. So we've been - I don't know if I can keep track of that sequence. I think you can.

13:29Malcolm Harris: I think you're the smartest person in the history here. So we're going to do Ryan, then Ryan, then Ryan, then Ryan? Ryan, then Ryan, and Ryan, and Ryan. And honestly, you guys feel free to jump in. It's real casual. You can call me Frame, too, if you want to say that. All right, cool. Just call me my last name. It's that way you got Ryan. So I'll go Ryan and frame. So Ryan, talk to me a little bit about, because when people in logistics think about protecting themselves financially, they usually think health or life insurance. But the one caveat that I know that I didn't think about, I know you didn't think about while we were brokers, was disability insurance.

14:04Malcolm Harris: Why is that the case? Well, Malcolm, most people really can't imagine themselves as disabled. Yeah. They normally picture a disability through a car crash or through someone being in a wheelchair. But most of our claims that we're seeing is through illness. And that should be eye-opening for most people. Yeah, definitely. That's interesting to me. Well, I mean, what are you going to do? You're going to slip, fall, and hit your head on the gong or something like that at steam? Too loud. You know what I mean? Right. or catch some kind of weird fungus from steve cox i don't know which one is more likely bro you're allowed to say this is your own opinions these are not i mean personally for me i think the the fungus but you gotta hug steve real tight i'm a hug steve's an awesome listen i know no disparage yet he's awesome oh steve is like an um i love that man yeah yeah he's a great dude but it is very very interesting to me because everybody thinks injury is what's going to happen to you.

15:11I had no idea that the stats are illness. And I never figured long-term illness would be it, right? I mean, does that include PTSD from not landing a new client as a broker for six months or your driver calling off too many times or a drop load too many Friday nights when you're at the bar? Does that, is that counted as one of the diseases? I'll go to, I'll go to frame, frame. Yeah, I mean, it must, your answer must be in the form of a question. In the form of a question? It could be, depending on how bad that mental disability becomes from there. But no. Yeah, no, I'm just interested. What is, is there stats on what the illnesses are that, that, that, that hit people?

15:58Because, yeah, I mean, the basic, I mean, I would say a big one is more towards the cancer side right oh yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah i mean we have you know during covid there was a lot of you know mental disabilities uh and claims that were paid out um but yeah it's just it's one of those things that we don't think about in terms of the injury side it's more again the illnesses that are paying out these claims and i would say with group benefits when we're looking at it most people overlook it and the reason being is like when you get your benefit package if you just change jobs or you're looking at the uh you know the new ones that are coming up for the year where do you where do you think people look most the very first thing where's that healthcare okay healthcare yeah so most people yeah healthcare yeah looking at their health insurance they start looking at the premiums and then the next benefit that comes up is the rest of the ancillary right and so they start looking at those and a lot of times there's some confusion but these premiums start to add up and it gets overlooked a lot and they just don't look you know deeper into the benefits and what they pay and how they pay and then it comes down to if there's a 401k involved or some type of employer-sponsored program, then they start looking at those and a lot of these ancillary benefits just get overlooked.

17:10A lot of people go right for the medical and they look at, okay, what's my copay and get the lowest copay they can and then they go to a doctor once a year.

17:20Money well spent. Money well spent right there. So that's where we help out a lot too. It's just when we're sitting down with clients. Again, And we're going through their benefit packages and making sure they're aware of what's available to them. Right. Yeah. And that's where the disability discussion usually comes up while we're going through this and going through planning with them. Can you can you talk a little bit about about I'm sorry, Malcolm, but I just on my mind is, you know, I learned this a while ago is, you know, we're talking about brokers, et cetera, that type of stuff. ryan uh uh the other ryan o 'leary o 'leary o 'leary was a broker um so you you immediately you look at this and and you you go over disability but you everybody goes to life right i mean and they'll pick life over disability and they're 23 years old it's like look if you die what's your what's your what's your issue you got no problems man problems are over steve's not asking you why you haven't sold anything you're not watching everybody else hit the gong none of that crap's happening right none of you you done but you get this long-term disability now you're looking at what 40 50 years yeah that's right i'm being i'm being a little bit of humor on there but it's seriously that's your risk bro not life and i was a lot of times too the life is already included right so the employer will pay for that so they'll get they'll get something yeah when we're young we don't think anything is going to happen to us we're invincible yeah in your 20s even in your 30s half the time you know a lot of people are just like nothing's going to happen to me um and the reality is is that one out of four people entering the workforce today will have some type of disability one out of four that's an insane stat yeah so on this right here and uh somebody may have habit you know they've been out for either short term long term but if you're out for more than two months of work or three months of work again one out of four entering the workforce today

19:26Malcolm Harris: will have some type of disability so you're basically saying right now on this screen between the four of us one of us statistically statistically that's insane i'm gonna i'm gonna say i'm gonna take the over and say at least half of us are disabled in some way I feel like I let you get I let you guess which two. Well, I was teaching a flag football lesson or coaching flag football last night. And one of the kids stepped on my foot and I woke up this morning. I could barely get out of bed with my foot and walk. And I'm like, yep, here's 43. Right. So it's well, dude, I'm 60. Believe it or not, I'm 60.

20:01And all I have to do is sit down. I wake up and my ankles broke.

20:08Malcolm Harris: Ryan oh uh talk to me because I mean we've been in the broker space and we've seen some real high performers right these folks that are making a lot of money right six figure plus uh but a lot of it is commission driven eat what you kill type environment a lot of brokers listen to this show um and fall in that category they're doing very very well for themselves and and some are aiming to do that. A lot of their take-home pay is commission-based. What happens when they're, say, for example, something does go left, and they're sidelined three months? What if they go on that trip that they paid for with a commission to Cabo, and they go, you know, on a, you know, a jet ski trip, and they hit their head, and they are concussed, and physically can't be in the office for 90, 120 days?

20:58Malcolm Harris: I just, I want to put it, like, in a real perspective and scenario that I've seen. Well, you know, that's unfortunate about the Cabo trip. It's terrible. It's awful. But first of all, take a quick step back. And we got to make sure that our clients and our professionals have an emergency fund established. And just with easy liquid cash, most likely in a savings account. And that will help them for the period that's with the disability policy and the elimination period. and they can get over that elimination period, most likely a 90-day period. And it's kind of like a deductible, like with your insurance and everything like that.

21:37But once that deductible is satisfied, then those benefits can be paid out. But onto the commission side, if you're holding a group benefits policy just through your employer, most likely none of your commissions or bonuses are going to be paid out in that disability policy. And it's an easy calculation. Most of the time, only 60 % of your base salary numbers will be covered. And that ruins financial plans. If we're looking to, you know, save money and invest money to age 65. And even when moderately paid earners get paid, there's always a cap. To my knowledge, it's around the$6 ,000 mark per month.

22:27So if you're an executive with 60 % of your salary and it goes over that$6 ,000 mark.

22:35Malcolm Harris: That threshold? That threshold. Then you're not getting paid anything above that. Okay. And everything's taxable. Okay. I'm falling. I'm falling. so that's why we look at these limits and you know some we've seen as high as uh you know 12 000 15 000 a month but the the biggest thing that ryan's talking about here is that that's taxable income right so if the employer is paying for any of this or subsidizing any of these premiums if a claim is made that money then becomes taxable income okay and so like ryan speaking if you have someone that's earning$100 ,000 and they're, let's say,$50 ,000 is based.

23:13Well, if they go on claim, only 60 % of that$50 ,000 is going to be paid out. The rest is not. And then that's taxable income. So now we're looking at 60 % of, you know,$50 ,000. So now we're looking at$30 ,000 as taxable. They're netting$25 ,000. They're used to making$100 ,000. The question becomes, how do we make up that gap? And that's where we start digging into these plans, making sure people are covered with that. Yeah. I was, I was going to ask if you're going to explain this as like, as well as Deion Sanders kind of explains this type of, this type of thing. And I'm, and I'm glad you did because those are, those are, those are the calculations that the brokers need to be talking about.

23:52What about the owners, man? Is this, does, how does this impact owners of brokerages? Can we switch that gear from employee to owners a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. So when we're looking at the owners, right, I mean, we're business owners ourself and my question i like to ask the business owners if you were taken out of the business for an extended period of time how would that affect the business would you lose revenue and if that answer is is yes substantially then again that's where we have the ability uh to look outside the box and do what we call overhead expense policies and these overhead expense policies basically pay payroll they keep the business alive if something were to happen and they're disabled and they cannot come back for an extended period of time.

24:32Gives them opportunity to possibly, you know, find a buyout if needed, but they're not losing income personally. They're not losing income to pay their employees to keep the business afloat. And we find this with partners too. Like if your partner were to leave, how would that affect the business? Do you have key employees that if something happened to them, what does your revenue stream look like? And we all know that, right? You've got a lot of the Pareto rule about, what is it? 20 % are creating 80 % of the income. You lose one of those guys, then what happens? Especially if they're disabled, and how do you keep their family afloat?

25:04So we have different carve-out types of policies for the executives as well as for the employees. It just doesn't make sense depending on what type of business it is and how they're paid, right? So commission-driven industries, this is where we're finding these massive gaps with the disability side of things. And it's just not talked about, but again, And we don't really talk about it until someone experiences it or we experience it. And then it's like, okay, what happens now?

25:31Malcolm Harris: I have a follow-up question. Two things. Number one, I love your analogy that you use about the 20 % basically make up the 80%. It's almost like a baseball team, like Aaron Judge with the Yankees being out. You can kind of see how the Yankees are impacted because the rest of the order is kind of messed up. When he's in, it's like 20 % more wins. Yeah. He's in. It's just a different caliber experience for the Yankees. It's just like that in brokerages. Whenever one of your high performers is taken away, you can kind of see the pods start to crumble a little bit. So, yeah, that's a great example.

26:03Malcolm Harris: I want to follow up because you said it's not necessarily talked about. I've noticed that organizations in logistics, right, HR departments specifically, are kind of more so like, I don't want to just say in the olden age, but like anywhere from HR, like this industry as a whole, is starting to really catch up technology-wise. Like, it's, we talk about it constantly, but it feels like brokerage and smaller brokerages as well are kind of still stuck in like this 2007, you know, manual, grungy, like, make sure you write down when you're here, when you leave. It's just, it's baffling to me. So I guess my question is like, why is this not being talked about?

26:43Malcolm Harris: Like why the things that you're talking about to me would have been life-changing in my career had I gotten to a car accident back in 2017 when I was a young broker in Chattanooga. And I know so many young brokers in Chattanooga that need to hear this. Why is that not being talked about at the desk level? One, I mean, I just don't think it's, maybe people aren't getting out and talking about it to these employers or employees. And that's why I'm so thankful that you guys are letting us have a platform to talk about this. But, yeah, I don't see much talked about in the workplace in terms of the differences of how these policies pay out.

27:20Also, it comes down to premium, right? We know that benefits are probably one of the most expensive parts when it comes to businesses providing benefits besides health insurance and their payroll. And then this kind of becomes a secondary thing. And obviously any benefit that's offered that's subsidized is a great thing by an employer. So don't get me wrong about that. Like that's huge. But then it just becomes just looking into that and getting the information out to the employees of how this works. And so that's what we're finding is it's just people don't understand it fully. And that's why they don't take it because they just see a premium and they think, oh, you know, I don't want to pay that extra money for that policy because it's just more money coming out of my pocket.

28:02Malcolm Harris: And they're just living the day to day with that base salary. So it's like so hard to justify that. It's like, ah. And that's what business owners, like they're inundated with things every single day with their business. They're trying to be successful. They're trying to grow their business. And this is kind of one of the last things on their minds, to be honest with you. I get that. I get that. You're in it to grow your business and make money. It's just we're here to kind of say, okay, let's think about the what ifs. Yeah. To protect that too if something goes left. Yeah. Something can go left.

28:28Very fast. Look, the effort of this and the reason I loved seeing you guys coming on the show was to impart some wisdom to those soldiers still there on the brokerage floor that we've left behind, right? That are still fighting a good fight and try and give them some information. What are some things that they really should be looking at to evaluate what their coverage is right now to go, you know what? I really need to look into this and figure this out, right? other than us just saying, look, when you get that fat ass commission check, buying rounds at the bar is going to get you that date. But once it gets serious, they're going to be like, how smart are you financially?

29:05Right. And then this is this dorky stuff. This this this cerebral stuff actually becomes important. Right. What do they need to be looking at here? How do they evaluate that? Look, I'm good or I'm not good. What are the key? I love asking this question to a lot of clients too. It's like, if you were out of work right now for an extended period of time, how long could you live on your current savings and investments? And if they say, I don't really know, or if they say probably five, six months, I say, does that bother you? If that bothers you, then we need to look at some other options, right?

29:39The biggest thing you need to be looking at is in their group policies is does it cover your commissions and bonuses? And there's language in there. and it'll tell you and then it'll tell you how much you know what the cap is that it would pay out if you were disabled um the other part of it they need to look at too is again can we get something outside of work right so a lot of times we're we're filling the gap with individual policies outside to make sure that hey if this policy pays out 60 what's my taxable amount or net amount i'm going to get and then from there we cover the rest up to most of the time we'll go up to 70 the max i see is really 80 of somebody's income and then they can purchase an individual policy outside of work and that can carry with them wherever they go so if they leave work or they go to another employer then they can turn around and keep this policy that they got individually matter of fact a lot of times will allow them to go up or a lot of these policies allow them to increase their coverage without more underwriting but yeah the biggest thing they need to look at is what does this benefit offer is it short term or long term right so not to make a joke, but you have STD and LTD.

30:47Short-term disability and long-term disability. See what the benefit is for the short-term and then see what the benefit period and the benefits that's going to pay out for the long-term. Again, if there's a gap in that, then yeah, we need to address it.

31:03Malcolm Harris: Ryan, you've been on the floor, right? You've done this. I've done it. I thought you were talking about the end of the night at the bar. no he was probably at mike's too a time or two now if somebody's making because you know the market's about to heat up right like it just naturally it's what goes up must come down this has been a really bad tumultuous time i'd say the last three four years since you know i mean i was in brokerage brokerage so for those that are kind of coming out of this and you're about to see, you know, more money being made. What's advice now knowing what you know, being in your world, like at Ashford, but then also knowing like, you know, I know what it's like to do a 530 check call.

31:50Malcolm Harris: I know what it's like to be able to put these loads in the system. I know what it's like to be in Salesforce, to, you know, make sure my opportunities tab is clean before I leave. Like, you know the game so well. So I think nobody could speak to it better than you. what do you have to say to the broker right now? To the broker or to the manager, you know, above those brokers, day in, day out, coming in there early and getting those calls out to the drivers and to your customers, making sure everything's tip-top shape. You need to understand what's more important whenever you have your business built.

32:24What's more important? Is that base salary the most important with your income structure? or is that commission actually the most important thing? What are you trying to grow? What are you trying to actually accomplish down the future and make into your prime business? So that's what I would look at. You're taking a look into your benefit structures and you're working with your HR and you figure out how much you're actually covered. And whenever you know how much you're covered, you need to understand, can I live off that? If anything were to happen to me, I know I'm in the office and I'm driving to work, driving back from work, not really on the road with a truck, but you just have to make sure that whenever you're a broker and you're building something from nothing, you're gonna make sure that those steps, those next goals and levels that you're achieving that are all covered behind you.

33:29I mean, your number one asset is your ability to earn income.

33:33Malcolm Harris: That's real, right? So if we lose that ability to earn income, it affects everything. It affects everything, whether you're single, whether you're married. It doesn't matter. That is the engine that feeds everything else. For sure. And if we lose that, the question becomes, how do we sustain our standard of living? Yeah. And so that's where we're very passionate about this side of it, because it's just a very overlooked benefit. And I think, you know, ask your HR, ask those questions. Hey, what does this cover? How much does this cover? Is it taxable if something happens? Because a lot of times these questions or answers aren't getting or aren't happening until something does happen.

34:11And then it's like, oh, that's it? That's all I'm getting? And it's like, yeah. Mike, you got something. Yeah, then you think you go in there with the problem going, look, you guys were wrong. you need to change the coverage because this should have been done yeah you don't you don't want to do that it doesn't work that way right yeah it doesn't yeah and i understand premiums play a part into all that right and so yeah they have to make it affordable too and make you know certain benefits are going to be uh above other benefits right but the main thing is is just let them know aware or have that awareness of what is available yeah yeah yeah yeah ryan o 'leary as

34:48Malcolm Harris: Ryan Frame representing Ashford Advisors. For those that listened to this episode today, and their minds blown, because my mind is blown, I'm not even a broker. Like, I candidly saw the questions, but, like, the way y 'all answered it, it wasn't a sales pitch. Like, it's a real consultative place of care. Like, this is just knowledge for what I think a lot of people in our city, I mean, there's so many freight brokers running around. Like, so many, I mean, give or take, what? 200 freight brokerages in chattanooga with at least 10 employees like you can go to public's buy y 'all's office pull 10 people to the side i guarantee four are either freight brokers or used to be so it's like obviously your services are going to be utilized and i think people are going to want to have the conversation how can i get a hold of y 'all yeah so uh obviously you can call ryan or ryan but you can call our offices at ashford advisor so um i mean i can give out a number i don't know how that works here oh yeah feel free i mean it's completely up to you yeah so i mean you can call my cell phone or the office line but uh 256-683-6967 um and again that'll just come straight to me and but uh yeah we're located in north shore um right there by yummy tummy tie so if you yummy tummy tie yeah yummy tummy tie i love it there gave you there's You got some disability right there, bro.

36:13You too much of that pantite.

36:14Malcolm Harris: You better wipe your mouth, Michael, Vince. Well, fellas, I want y 'all to stick around on the couches. I want to say bye before you leave. I got to get to Mr. Charles Clevenger. He's been waiting in the bullpen. And we got a Purdue Boilermaker as well as an Ohio State debate to have. So I'm going to get to him. But I want to shake y 'all's hands. I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm going to let you get out of here with that foot, man. I know.

36:40Malcolm Harris: Yeah, this desk is unforgiving. No, for sure. Flag football. Whoever got my man did like this, man. We're going to have a conversation. Thanks so much, Mal. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate you. Thank you, guys. Peace, brothers. Peace. Oh, man. And definitely y 'all stay mic'd up so you can hear the rest of the show. That was a great episode and segment, rather, with, of course, Ryan O 'Leary as well as Ryan Frame. But to end the show, we got about 15 minutes or so. Perfect, perfect timeline. For Charles Clevenger, he is a principal at UHY. We're talking all about tariffs and international.

37:18Malcolm Harris: So with that, let's bring him out. Mr. Charles Clevenger, hello, sir. How are you? I'm well, Malcolm. How are you? I am doing fantastic, man. It is a good time here. It's Friday. I'm adjusting seats. and now I'm ready to go. So it's really good to see you. You're front and center with your Diet Coke. Front and center with a Diet Coke, man. I appreciate it. That's brand placement right there, bro. So, yeah, please call me Charlie as well. Okay. I've pretty much given up on Charles, so. I love it. We can make that happen. I'm sorry. I was just adjusting my seat, getting ready to go. But yeah, we can definitely make that happen.

38:07Malcolm Harris: Charlie, so talk to us because there's a bit of a rivalry happening right now. And of course, as you heard the first segment with our guys, Ryan, you heard that we really do our research here on what the truck. And apparently somebody is a Purdue Boilermaker. Is that true or false? That is absolutely true. That's an easy question. Of course, somebody is a Purdue Boilermaker. It's not true. They do exist, right? It's not true, Mike. It's not true. You're a Buckeye, huh? I am a Buckeye, but I do like Purdue, man. I think they're pretty cool. I think the Boilermakers are pretty cool. I love it. I actually do.

38:48They're giant killers. They always make me nervous. You know what I'm saying? Because you could be having the best season and they'll beat you. They never quit. And that's the truth. And I also need to say that for good karma. you know what I'm saying but you know most people don't know this but it is known as the cradle of astronauts okay the cradle of

39:14Malcolm Harris: astronauts what yeah yeah go look it up Purdue is the cradle of astronauts Charlie knows this I'm sure Charlie knows this Purdue is known as the cradle of astronauts and also I have a crazy ass story where the founder, John Purdue, is buried on campus, right? And his headstone's right along this walkway. And when they would win a game, the students would go out there, so the stories go, and try and dig him up so he could party with them. You're lying to me. Charlie, am I lying? Well, the digging up part I'm not so sure about. I never had a shovel on campus. That's how the story goes. And actually, I think I got a picture of you trying to dig up.

40:09There he is, right? Look, check this out. There he is. Look at it. And he's talking about it. He's like, look, we're just going to dig up John here, and he's going to party with us. No big deal. Just wear my astronaut uniform. Don't pay attention to the guy in the astronaut uniform over there. So they're not really 100 % sure if his bones are still there or not because they could be in a frat house somewhere. You never know. This is crazy. They could be. My mind is going. And by the way, I was sweating a little bit when I saw the gas can come out. I'm really glad you switched over to the astronaut suit.

40:45I wouldn't do you that. I wouldn't do you that way. I think that's all. Look at that. That's pretty. Cody is good, man.

40:51Malcolm Harris: Cody is a different guy, man. That's Kobe Bryant of AI and Photoshop to you. You sure he's not the LeBron James of it? You know, he's the Black Mamba, man. You got to be careful with him. He's going to drop 81 on you. Wait a minute. Don't they have a picture of 83 or something like that? Watch out. Watch out. Watch out. Charlie, let's talk, man. The tariff landscape is bonkers. I mean, let's call it what it is. There's so many things happening in this space right now. How would you describe the current tariff environment when it comes to what American businesses are facing today? Because I can't put it into words.

41:30Malcolm Harris: Michael Vincent can put it into words, but it's not going to do it justice like Charlie. No, it's not. I will. I'll give you my best. It's a very different place than it was, say, 10, 15, 20 years ago. Things are much more dynamic. Decisions are made much more quickly, much more aggressively by our government. There was a time when this process, if you go back to the 1990s, for example, the anti-dumping duties on bearings, that process went on for a very long time, went on for years. Now these things happen in a matter of hours or days or weeks. So if you're a manufacturer, distributor, supply chain organization, you find yourself having to consider and react much more quickly than in the past.

42:26It's kind of a negative effect, and we don't want to get too political about things here, but it's kind of a negative effect of the art of the deal type of stuff, right? Like, let's do this and then we'll fight the court battle later, right? Because, I mean, we're talking about, you know, Section 122, right? Which is difficult kind of to understand how it can be used and why it's not allowed in certain places. I mean, liquidity of balance, basic balances, all that kind of stuff is how it's used, right? I mean, it's supposed to be used for like monetary crisis, right? Yeah. Actually, to your point, Michael, the different tariffs have different foundations.

43:11The 122, we think of that from a practical standpoint as it was the government stop cap measure when the Supreme Court ruled on IEPA in February of this year that it was illegal. And they wanted to have something in place. That Trade Act from 1974 gave them the flexibility to put that in for a period of time. And that 150-day period expired on July 24th. So it came and it went. hmm yeah in 150 days yeah 150 days most companies are not going to be able to react right you just you deal with it yeah yeah but i mean but they're trying to use something that was made for currency emergencies as a trade imbalance thing is that that basically the issue of why it it doesn't hold up well with iepa yes i think it was really a bridge too far um and of course we get into this debate about what congress can do legislatively versus what the executive branch can do and and that comes into play as well so um yeah so i'll tell us a little bit about 301 and how that looks

44:27Malcolm Harris: Because it's not kind of registering in my brain as well, like the difference between that and 301. Yeah, Section 301, and again, it's the 1974 Trade Act, which is the same as Section 122. The government has used it a couple different ways. Initially in 2018, they used it directly with China, citing unfair trade practices. Once it was in place, it's largely remained, although the structure has changed somewhat. The more recent use of Section 301 has been the forced labor and unfair labor practice rules. And that's been very pervasive. It covers over 99 % of the goods imported into the United States from those countries, and it's over 60 countries.

45:20So it's very, very broad in nature. Okay, so now we got 122. We got 301. Now there's 232, right? And I don't want to get too complicated, right? Because I know it's very, very complicated. But how do we break this down to how does 232 differ? What are the three or four, the two or three levels that we really need to look at? how do they differ and how do they impact people? I mean, our business is looking at, look, if I put this, there's at least 301 sections I got to worry about. Is that the case or what is going on here, right? Because my simple mind goes, well, crap, if there's section 301, what the hell the other 300?

46:12And typically in trade acts, and I'm no expert on those acts, they cover a whole variety of things. Unfortunately, the areas dealing with tariffs are a little more limited. But I tend to look at it this way. The initial tariff action during the first Trump administration was Section 232. And that was very straightforward in that they cited national security concerns and pursued trade protection for base materials, metals, steel, and aluminum. There is some logic in that. We've seen an outflow of steel and aluminum manufacturing in this country for many years, and the national defense mechanism really relies on having domestic supply of those materials, especially some of the specialty materials.

47:08So that was the foundation. There was national defense. It's now been expanded very recently to go beyond metals. We used to call it the metals tariff. Now it includes pharmaceuticals. So they're looking at best interests of national defense, not just from a material standpoint, but they're including pharmaceuticals and doing some other things as well. As with a lot of things within government, it also gets a little more complex. So 232 is really around national defense protection. It was metals, now it's metals, pharmaceuticals, and I think it's reasonable to expect that it might grow further.

47:49The 300 series tariffs are more around trade practices. Unfair trade practices, what we now call the China legacy tariffs, that was the origin for that. Now it's around forced labor and the management of forced labor. On one hand, it's going to be interesting to see who, I mean, all of these are being challenged at some level in the court system, correct? It's going to be interesting to see who challenges the forced labor tariffs under 301, because that's a little different situation. And then Section 338, the other 300 series tariff, which goes all the way back to the Tariff Act of 1930, that is very focused on discrimination against operations and exports from the United States.

48:47So I tend to think of it as 232 is very defense related and government priority related, whereas the 300 series are more fair trade, unfair trade kinds of tariffs. 122 was just sort of a stopgap measure. IEPA is done for companies that paid IEPA tariffs. The best thing they can do is be going through the refund process to get their money back.

49:14Malcolm Harris: Charlie, the thing I don't like about this show is that we run short on time, and we got about three minutes or so. We got about three minutes or so. So I'm going to ask a question, and then Mike's going to end the interview with a question that he has. My question to you, because it's been burning in my head, is that obviously somebody has to assume the cost of these tariffs. How much of the cost is typically absorbed by the importer or manufacturer versus passed along to the actual customer? What does that split look like? It can vary, Malcolm. It's all over the board, and it depends on the leverage and commercial position and competitive position of the importer, the U.S.

49:58company that is receiving that product, and for many that resell their position with their customer. You know, in one industry that I probably shouldn't name, I know the brokers in that industry took the IEPA tariffs and they just ran it right through to their customers. It was a pass through for them. It went to their customers who were consumer facing, which no doubt means that the consumers picked up a portion or all of that tariff impact. In other cases, if you're a manufacturer and you're heavily capitalized, you don't quite have so much flexibility. And those are the companies that are looking at changing their supply chains and leaning out their cost and so forth.

50:46So it can vary. For consumer goods, I think we're seeing a lot of it, at least in my opinion, based on what I see when I go to the store and buy things. I think we're seeing a lot of it flow through. Industrials, it's a little bit different. It's being shared along the way. And for sure, there has been pushback from U.S. companies onto their foreign importers to absorb that cost as well, or find a different value stream with a different cost structure to reduce the impact.

51:20Malcolm Harris: Gosh, I've got like 10 more follow-up questions. Go ahead, Mike. I'm sorry. I got 100 of them, dude. How much time we got? We got a minute and 40 seconds. Literally, we got to get out of here. Where are we heading from here, dude? What's the environment look going forward? Do you have a crystal ball for us for businesses to look at? I wish I did. Frankly, one that I was surprised lasted as long as it did was Brazil. If you've done any work with Brazil, you know that they have highly protectionist policies. They put stiff duties in tariffs. I wasn't at all surprised to see the U.S. government come with Section 301 tariffs against Brazil.

52:00The question is, where will they go next? I think this is partially a national defense and policy play, and it's partially a revenue generation play. We have a president, the art of the deal you mentioned before, loves to negotiate. And it's going to be dynamic. I think the best thing for companies who are in these value streams is that they look for flexibility. And there's an old adage we used in manufacturing as I lived and moved around the world, which was make where you sell and buy where you make. And I'm actually sitting in a company now that four years ago went down the path of saying we're going to be able to compete with companies out of Asia.

52:45And now they're growing. They've been able to do it. So I like that localization or at least nearshoring approach. I think it's one of the best strategies for manufacturers in the U.S.

52:58Malcolm Harris: Oh, man. Charlie Clevenger, again, the principal at UHY. Charlie, man, thank you so much. I will say I'm going to reach out to the agency that got us in contact. You're coming back on what the truck in Q4 is. Just get ready to go. I just want to let you know. Hey, I would love it. I've listened to you guys, but the other day in the car, my wife joined me listening, and she said that Malcolm seems like a really nice guy, but watch out for Michael. Yeah, she got it right. She got it right. She got it right. You know, got to watch that, Michael Vincent, man. Charlie, bro, appreciate you for being here.

53:36Malcolm Harris: Thank you so much, guys. Yeah, man, appreciate you. Thanks, Charlie. I want to appreciate the Ryans as well. I want to appreciate the Ryans as well. I was looking for my camera. both Ryan O 'Leary as well as Ryan Frame for being here on the show. And I want to thank Michael Vincent. Mike, you look good in this red. This coordination, I mean, we look like it's Valentine's Day today. We're doing good, bro. We're doing good, man. Let's look at the road ahead before we get up out of here, all right? Because we got two great guests on your Monday. From Gnosis Freight, the Hoff has landed. Jake Hoffman, their chief technology officer, is going to be in the building.

54:10Malcolm Harris: And we got a guy that's going to be in the building. guy yeehaw alright he is the president of smart sense by DG he is going to be in the mix with us on Monday make sure you guys like subscribe follow do all the things what'd you say Mr. Benson I said is Jake coming in is he gonna be in studio like making some gnocchis for us I don't know we're gonna find out make me stay tuned on Monday you never know for myself my defense peace and love we'll see you on Monday alright

54:58We'll see you next time.