140: David Bailey: How We Convinced Donald Trump Bitcoin Is Good For America

29:55Bitwise is a crypto specialist asset manager with more than $15 billion in client assets across 30 plus crypto solutions, including ETFs, index funds, alpha strategies, staking, and more. However, you like to invest in crypto, Bitwise has something for you. And SWI, a scalable layer one blockchain that's fast, secure, and affordable, built by Facebook developers, and that delivers the benefits of Web3 with the ease of Web2. Thank you. You said before we made some gigantic returns on some of these Bitcoin treasury companies' plays just over the last few months. How much of this return is tied to the Bitcoin price?

30:33And how much is pure speculation? Well, we measure... So first off, just to be clear, you know i didn't know what you're gonna ask about but like for utxo i'm not like to talk about it i'm not soliciting anyone to hit us up about it or whatever this is not a solicitation this is just us talking factually about the business um i don't know if that disclaimer actually legally you know is uh we don't do any financial advice yeah actually here it's written nfa yeah financial advice you know i love saying not financial advice but i've been told when you say that actually people listen to it like oh this guy is giving financial advice and it doesn't protect you.

31:09So there's really no reason to even say it. But yeah, so we measure performance at the fund. So going back to your former question about like, what's going to protect us against blowing up? The fact that we aren't in other cryptos, like the fact that we've picked an asset like Bitcoin that has been able to consistently grow over time, like, you know, has done wonders. It's very hard to pick a crypto that's going to like survive cycle to cycle. In fact, I know almost no one that can do it successfully. And I've seen a lot of people try a lot of people. So, you know, with Bitcoin, it's like, okay, we're picking the right foundation to build our investment strategy on top of.

31:48And so if you pick the right foundation, that carries a lot of water for the overall strategy. So to the question of the outperformance, so like we're looking at this purely from Bitcoin perspective. Like if we're not generating outperformance in Bitcoin terms, it doesn't make, I can't just hold the Bitcoin. I'd rather hold to Bitcoin and not have to deal with all the diligence and all the governance and there's a lot of work that goes into it. So, yeah, I mean, I think the funds return since inception over like seven years, eight year track record is 35 % a year against Bitcoin. Which is insane because already performing Bitcoin is extremely hard.

32:30It's so hard. People think it's easy, but it's so hard. So hard. And yeah, we're so 35 % a year for seven years in a row. So that's not exactly accurate. It's like, that's where the fund is. And so it's lopsided, the returns, etc. But if you if you measure it over time, but so you have these these treasury companies, like we look at them from a perspective of we're putting Bitcoin in. And we're investing in a certain premium to that that Bitcoin value, we try to keep it as low as possible. And then, you know, we're trying to back the best teams. And then ideally, we're not selling our position when we invest because the team is a big deal.

33:03is going to run an accretive dilution strategy that ultimately is equivalent to them selling for us. Like, we don't need to sell, let them go and sell. And so even though you get diluted, ultimately the book value of the company grows dramatically over time. And so, you know, with Metal Planet, you know, just from the market cap we invested to where it is now, we should be up 400X. I think in reality, we're up a little over 100X from where we invested because of the dilution, you know, and we didn't have to do anything. We just sat there and let Simon execute. And we're only two years into this trade in general.

33:38But it's like, we don't have any interest in selling for the next five years. Why would we sell? Like, they're selling for us. So, yeah, so, you know, we think this is where you're going to see outsized Bitcoin returns over a long period of time. And so we want to dominate that market. What's something that naysayers calling Bitcoin treasury company stocks, shitcoin stocks, are failing to understand? What are, like, the shitcoin treasury companies failing to understand? People say, basically, there's the shitcoins in crypto, and then now these shitcoin stocks are the, forget about all these treasury coins, these DATs.

34:18Let's talk about just Bitcoin treasury companies. These are shitcoin, shit stocks. Well, they're not. What do they not understand? in? Well, at the end of the day, these companies are buying Bitcoin. So, you know, they're there. If you take the most skeptical view of Bitcoin treasury companies, they're worth the value of their assets on their balance sheet. As long as they don't have toxic financing or some really massive drag of, you know, negative earnings, they're worth the balance sheet. And so, again, you're these Bitcoin treasury companies, there's at least a solid foundation from where they're being built versus investing into a shit coin or crypto where there is no foundation.

34:55Like the, the, the, the price will decline 99.99%. I mean, it can go basically to zero, you know, whereas I don't think that that's something that that's not a realistic risk for Bitcoin. So like that's one differentiator of them. I also think like, you know, at the end of the day, most shit coins or crypto are unregistered securities where we pretend they're not securities, but they are securities. And because we define our way out of them being, or the industry does out of them being considered securities, they're able to avoid all the governance controls, transparency, disclosures that securities laws are built upon.

35:33You know, they've really designed the system in order to circumvent the things that are supposed to give investors protection. When you launch a treasury company or public company in general, you're issuing a regulated registered security. You have to abide by the laws. And there's lots of ways to exploit the laws. I'm not saying that that's a foolproof protection for an investor, but there's a lot of good securities law that's been built as a consequence of scams that have been run in the past. And you can't just run and gun like it is done in crypto. And so, and if you do, you're going to go to jail.

36:08So it's like, you know there's actually consequences it's not like and actually it's pretty funny to watch some of these people because they're like i'll see people on twitter like it's crime season and it's like bro it's not crime season like you're just that's you know you're gonna go to jail you know and i and i see people trying to port some of the crypto ideas straight over into securities it's like yeah it's not gonna work so um i think where the skepticism comes from is like at the end of the day users should control their own private keys to the bitcoin and with the bitcoin treasury company, you're offloading that responsibility to the treasury company.

36:38And then they're trading at a premium to the Bitcoin that they're holding. And so people are like, okay, well, why am I paying a premium? But the answer to that's actually pretty simple. You're paying a premium because these companies are growing. And anytime there's growth, anytime you buy an instrument and that instrument's going to have more Bitcoin or more value in the future, you're going to pay a premium to whatever the spot value is. Now, how much of a premium is appropriate to pay? Well, that's in the eye of the investor. Like you have to determine your own methodology and model how you value these things.

37:09And some people are just pure momentum FOMO traders and other people have a pretty sophisticated approach to like where they think is good value. So, but that's just, that's, that's the marketplace. And then those, those people go out in the marketplace. We'll see who performs the best. Sometimes it's the DGENs that perform the best. Sometimes it's the conservative investor that performs the best. But yeah, so I don't buy, you know, these are just shit coins. They're higher risk than holding your own Bitcoin, but they're orders of magnitude better than buying a crypto token that has no value or use or, you know, protections.

37:49You said we invested in 15 companies so far. Obviously with Metaplanet and then SmarterWeb company you had like these crazy successes is tied to you, right? And your company. So you must have crazy, crazy deal flow and demand. And at some point, and you raised a lot of money that you have to invest also. How do you manage that? Or how do you deal with that to not make too many mistakes? Because when you have all this deal flow, then you're going to have, you said we bet on the best teams, et cetera. But how can you know this is the best team? How do you keep the quality? Yeah, it's a challenge.

38:25No, I mean, and we've already had some missteps or mistakes. The strategy is an evolving strategy as well. So for example, our initial focus was just fund as many of these as we can, as long as the team quality is good. And then it became like, okay, are we doing multiple per market or just one? And what's the investment thesis? Why would we pick one versus two? And some of these things we hadn't even thought about until like a situation arises and then we're having to deal with the situation in real time. So there's definitely going to be missteps and there'll be more missteps in the future, but that is kind of how you learn, you know, in terms of, of like the portfolio overall, I mean we try to keep our strategy simple and then we try to just focus on doing and any mistake you make is recoverable as long as you're executing a plan and executing it well enough that for the missteps, there's also the correct steps.

39:29Our goal is to underwrite 80 of these in 80 different markets. So that's a lot of teams. Each deal we learn something new from, but it's also, you know, the more of the opportunity that people see, you also have the grifters, you also have like the sharks. A lot probably. Yeah. Probably the majority are just people who don't even care about Bitcoin. Yeah, the quality degrades as people see fast money. And then the Wall Street Sharks, you know, it's been pretty interesting to actually watch this. Like adding, you know, creating this kind of equity market for Bitcoin securities. It has pulled in a totally different type of investor that did not play in Bitcoin because it's just alien to what they do.

40:13But like stocks are not. That's their bread and butter. And so they're pulling, you know, all the Wall Street tricks on these deals. And if you don't know what you're doing or looking for, they will eat your lunch. They'll screw you. But also at the same time, like you do, like there's new economic actors at the table that you can do business with that have immense resources. And they're very quickly kind of becoming infatuated with Bitcoin. Like they don't like it for ideological reasons. you know like it's not like it's the the ideology is what brought them to the table what brought them to the table was the juicy fees or the you know the the trading volume that's happening but then it's like you come for the the profits and then you kind of uh are enticed by the system as a whole and you stick around so it's like it's interesting to watch when these people get orange billed so you're orange billed a bunch of people from wall street it's happening i'm just saying i'm watching it happen in real time it's interesting you also orange billed the u.s president donald trump i don't i wouldn't say i orange billed him but we were part of the effort orange bill you you when i say you i mean we right you we got donald trump and the entire trump family into bitcoin how the hell did that happen it's a long story um long story short you know it happened, the way it happened is we were in, I live in Puerto Rico.

41:40So I was with some, some Bitcoin friends sitting outside and we're like, you know, what would be great is if we could figure out how to get in the room of Donald Trump and pitch him on Bitcoin. Cause I bet you, we could get them to like it. And one of our friends who lives in Puerto Rico as well was there. And she, she was like, you know, I know someone who can actually get us in front of them. my stepsister's godfather is a stepsister's godfather is paul manafort trump's old campaign manager and so she was able to get a phone call between us and paul and then we were able to pitch paul and then paul went and pitched people other people in the inner circle uh and then you know they kept coming back to us so it was this back and forth process that took months and months and months and then eventually then that got into it we kept getting deeper and deeper into the inner circle until we get to the guy himself.

42:35And probably took us four months of like, you know, a couple of times a week going back and forth on their questions about it. And, you know, having to sketch out what a Bitcoin policy platform would look like and why it's like, what's an America first platform look like? So a lot of work kind of go in. And then we, after we kind of made it through all of the, what's the word, hurdles, uh they're like okay the president wants to meet um uh and so we went to trump tower and met with them and pitched them and then he was just like okay i'm in now you gotta deliver he's like if i'm gonna deliver you have to deliver so and then uh we proceeded to rally the industry and raise money and um ultimately have him speak at the conference and um what you say ultimately how How long before the conference was this Trump Tower meeting?

43:30How long does it take to be like, okay, I'm going to go out there and talk about Bitcoin and say, we're going to be the capital for Bitcoin and crypto and so on and so forth? Well, so we started the process in probably like February. The meeting with the president, I think, was in April or May. And then the conference happened in July. but you know the the actual like courting process is kind of funny like once the trump tower meeting happened he went out and he made some statements in general on the topic and he started accepting bitcoin and crypto for donations and then that induced a response when he did that and so trump's the type of guy who he like he feeds off of the reaction and so you know he says something about bitcoin he notices people really like it then he doubled out doubles down and says it more and so there was kind of like this feedback loop where the more he talked about it, the more good things like happened.

44:25And so he wanted to talk about it even more. And, uh, you know, I think kind of the conference was like the defining moment where, you know, he came into the conference. He was very, he had, he had spoken to the libertarian conference like a month before and he had been booed. And so he was like a little bit worried about coming to the Bitcoin conference and how is it going to be, you know, responded to and how's the crowd going to react. And like the crowd went crazy i mean it was a very electric environment and he walked away from that event being like these are my people i love bitcoin bitcoin loves me just like you know uh just uh um totally in how much do you think he understands bitcoin at the fundamental level versus what can bitcoin can bring him as a i mean was kind of new president i mean re-elected president yep Yep.

45:14So I would say that he understands it at a high level. He doesn't understand how the technology works. He doesn't, but he has smart people around him that he trusts that know how it works and are credible people. And, you know, he trusts them that if they say, okay, this is, this is how it works and it works fine. Like he, he believes them, but he does understand it at a, at a very high level. And, you know, the president is someone who is, he's an entrepreneur. He's a real estate developer. To be that, you have to be able to see something in a, you know, something raw that other people can't see.

45:54And so he saw the potential of what Bitcoin could do. And he saw the opportunity. And so he, and then he executed on it. And he delivered for our industry in a way that I've really never seen a politician deliver before for a cause. So, but yeah, it's definitely opportunistic. I think, you know, and I don't mean that in a slight. I mean opportunistic and he's a man who's built his career off of seeing opportunities where others don't. Let's get back to the MetaPlanet investment because it all ties together with this son, right? Who is now on the, I think he's on the board, right? Eric. So basically, I'm trying to understand is when was the in your kind of 1 million for fun investment in MetaPlanet and then see the whole story where you kind of red pill the Trumps and then you get the sun in MetaPlanet.

46:47Yeah. The whole thing. Yeah. I don't remember when I when Eric joined the advisory board. It was this year, I think. So and so my question is, you said before we started the whole process with the president last year in February. Right. When did we invest in MetaPlanet? It's kind of around the same time. we invested in um yeah about the march or something like that of last year but these were completely independent tracks so like there was no overlap but yeah then then they came together it's funny how that works crazy crazy and you know what's also interesting is like you know just to extend this a little bit further like bitcoin is going through this moment right now where it's becoming truly mainstream dream.

47:28And our political system, the power structure that exists in the world is based off of control of the money. It's based off of control of the flow of funds. It's based off of like the financial system itself is one of the main mechanisms of just control and power. And so, So, you know, as like Bitcoin reaches the stature, it inherently becomes a very political thing, even though it's apolitical in its own right. And what happened in the United States with the president, like this becoming a political topic and it kind of tapping the zeitgeist, it's happening all over the world. And, you know, the UK is a great example of this as well.

48:17And so when I look at these Bitcoin treasury companies, I think the long-term destination of where these are going is to become Bitcoin banks. And we actually have a corollary in history of when this happened. There were gold banks. And so it's like, and this is how these bullion banks ultimately became the people who underwrote government debt, government securities. They funded government bonds. This is how the first central banks came to be. And so what we're doing is we're really creating the next generation monetary system and the financial institutions that will comprise it. And every country is going to have at least one, probably multiple.

49:01And so it's this interesting fusion that's happening between the business of Bitcoin and the politics of governing the world. and like as we disrupt the money there's like this weird relationship that's having to form between the business side and the political side because we're kind of cutting out the other participants who were there previously as you said there's basically the floodgates are open politically business wise Wall Street is in institutions are in partly with this ETS partly with what you're doing and so the future is bright i read the the other day a tweet from brian armstrong who said i think we'll see a million dollar per bitcoin by 2030 you said i agree with brian armstrong let's fucking go yeah you also said that one million per bitcoin is the floor yeah why it's the floor because you know the only way that i can look at bitcoin to assess a uh evaluation of it because from my perspective, Bitcoin is a binary outcome.

50:10Either it works or it doesn't work. If it works, it's going to disrupt the entire value system. If it doesn't work, it's going to zero. Those are the two outcomes. And so it's like, okay, well, those are the two binary outcomes. Then how do I do a fair market value of Bitcoin today? So I look at comps. What can I comp it against to make a relative assessment of its value? And for all extents and purposes, gold, in my opinion, is the best corollary right now. Bitcoin is gold, but better. Bitcoin is gold, but it's actually scarce. It doesn't inflate at 2 % per year like gold does. Bitcoin is gold, but it's instantly transportable around the world.

50:51It can be teleported. Bitcoin is gold, but there's no security cost to store it. And I can keep a billion dollars of it on a piece of paper. you know it's gold with real-time auditability it's gold with infinite divisibility and so you know it's just better than gold in basically every way and if you made the market cap of gold equal to the market cap of bitcoin one bitcoin's worth right now like 1.2 million dollars and so you know it's been a moving target so that's my my twitter handle's a little bit out of date but so my my argument is that there's no justifiable reason why bitcoin should be worth less than gold it's better than gold if it works if it works i had a dantapero on the podcast and he said the one thing after his 30 or 35 years in uh investing he said every time i'm too sure about something that's when i lose money what's the probability that bitcoin doesn't work because you said before it's a binary outcome so it means that there's still in your mind the probability that it doesn't work yeah i try not to be absolute in anything you know it's like uh there's there's very few things that are absolute.

51:59I literally could not tell you why Bitcoin won't work.

52:06So if you just asked me to describe to you the failure state, I couldn't, I couldn't describe it. So, so from that perspective, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty confident in it, but there's a lot of things I don't know about. And I mean, like, you know, people talk about quantum risk. It's really hard to assess what's real and what's not real. But even if there was quantum computing, there's solution for how to solve it. It's like the system itself is emergent and responsive. And like I said, like, I don't think anything can kill it. I think actually anything you throw out, it's going to might cause a lot of volatility, but it'll just come back stronger.

52:42So yeah. And I, and I think if, you know, did your Brian Armstrong tweet that you called out, you know, if you, if you kind of run the math on a million dollars per Bitcoin, the numbers are just unbelievable. Like at a million dollars of Bitcoin, that means that Bitcoin's market cap's over$20 trillion. US GDP is$25 trillion. So you're talking about manifesting out of thin air, the US GDP. I mean, the US economy is the biggest economy in the world. Think about how much attention is given to if the US economy is growing at 3 % or 4%. So much attention is given to that. Okay, well, we just invented out of thin air an asset that's worth 100 % of the GDP, and it might fluctuate in the course of one day, 5%, which is the entire global GDP growth that we look for for an entire year.

53:36So you just have this asset that's going to start distorting the real world as it gains scale and size. Like at a million dollars, it's one of the biggest asset categories in the world. And so it's going to start having real world implications where the price of Bitcoin is what's going to drive inflation. Or, you know, if Bitcoin goes into a bear market, like there's going to be a financial crisis that extends beyond Bitcoin into the real world. And so we're just watching this process by which the world's financial heartbeat is synchronized to what happens to Bitcoin because so many people own it and it's so widely distributed throughout society and the value of it has gotten so large.

54:17if one million dollar per bitcoin in five years is the floor what's possible in 10 years what's the ceiling yeah i mean well the ceiling is is um one 21 millionth of infinity i mean that's the ceiling you know uh uh i think the the purchasing power of bitcoin caps out at the rate of growth of economic output technology and human population growth or like maybe with AI, maybe that doesn't even, uh, isn't even a limiting factor. So the market size is huge. It can, it can keep growing way bigger than anyone expects or even thinks is plausible. It's not like dollars. It's not like, um, uh, you know, securities that are issued by a company.

55:03It has a much bigger TAM, much bigger market. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think$50 million of Bitcoin is, is plausible. I think a hundred million dollars of Bitcoin is plausible. I do think the process to getting to that price point would be so fundamentally destabilizing to the social structure that you're going to have a lot of outlier events that happen in that process. And who knows, you know, exactly how that unfolds. But I mean, we were just talking about a million dollars of Bitcoin. Imagine if we went to$10 million of Bitcoin. Now we're 10 times the US GDP. The whole world, that's all we care about is Bitcoin's purchasing powers up or down per day.

55:44You wrote there's not going to be another Bitcoin market, bear market for the next several years. Every sovereign bank, insurer, corporate pension, and more will own Bitcoin. The process has already begun in earnest, yet we haven't even captured 0.01 % of the total addressable market we're going so much higher yeah some solid bull posting the um you know i think uh first off i've been a big believer of the four-year cycle for a long time um and you know uh every time people say this time is different for the four-year cycle and i've always been very cynical of that and every time it actually has played out as a four-year cycle.

56:28What I see that's different right now is like, you know, this is like real institutional adoption. I mean, this is like big hedge funds that you don't know are in Bitcoin or big financial institutions you don't know do Bitcoin that are taking on multi hundred million billion dollar, you know, positions like they're significant sums of capital. And, you know, that's never happened before. Like maybe you have like one outlier, but I'm talking about there's a lot of funds doing this, a lot of financial institutions doing it. And so, you know, I think it's kind of crossed the chasm of like credibility in the institutional investor community.

57:04And I think it's going to be faux pas not to have some exposure to Bitcoin over the next several years. And, you know, financial, the incentives of how fund managers even get paid incentivize that if enough people start doing something that generates outsized returns for those parties, to make sure you fall in the top quartile or at least middle of the pack, as you pointed out earlier. If you want to be safe, you got to make sure you're not in the last quartile. And so there is a forcing function that happens where it's like, if your peers are making more money than you buying Bitcoin, it's very hard to beat Bitcoin's performance.

57:42You're eventually forced to just get some exposure yourself. So I think we're going to see over the next several years, at least a solid percentage of institutional investors get some exposure. And there's a ton of institutional investors. And even those that are coming in in big size right now, they're coming in in like less than 1 % or 2 % of their assets. So, and these investors, they don't buy like individuals buy where, you know, individuals connect their bank account and they send over all their money in their bank account and they buy and it's a one and done and they've moved on. Like they're much more sophisticated how they enter positions and exit positions.

58:22And so they spread their buying over time. And then you also have index funds and ETFs and vehicles that are rebalancing their positions as well. So if it performs too well, they're cutting the position size. If it draws back, they're adding to the position size. And so this will just take a while to kind of metastasize and play out. And so I don't see how we can have a bear market when there's such a mismatch between capital coming in and how much capital there is to leave. So that's, that's, that's like, I think the four-year cycle, not that the idea itself is broken, but I think like this cycle is going to be unlike any other cycle we've seen before.

59:08When the second part of 2025, when do you think this ends? Well, that's what I'm saying is like, I think, you know, it's going to take several years for these participants to, you know, for us to capture a meaningful amount of the TAM for this. And, you know, I think the price has to get high enough where the amount of capital coming in, you know, matches what's coming out of the system. Like, you know, there's only a couple ways to skin the cat. If you want to, if a hundred billion wants to come in, you know, the price of Bitcoin rises enough so that there's enough available Bitcoin inventory to sell them for the hundred billion dollars.

59:42So at some point in time, the price gets high enough where it will become unsustainable there has to be a prolonged bear market but what's that price in your mind a range you know again it's back to like what's the value of bitcoin i mean i i could it could be 500 000 it could be a million they could so i i it's really hard to answer that question um i think it's more like uh uh the price of bitcoin growing significantly in a one-year period. Like if we see a couple hundred percent return or 300 % return in a year, like that's very difficult to sustain. But if you look at this bull run in general, it's been pretty steady.

1:00:24Steady lads. Last one on dreaming bigger. You tweeted some time ago, ever since getting into Bitcoin, I've always had this dream of smash buying$1 billion of Bitcoin in a single bid. tomorrow that dream comes true gotta start dreaming bigger how can someone learn to dream bigger you know uh first off you know also great bull posting for me uh uh you know we we we smash bought we smash bought over 12 hours so it really wasn't as climatic as everyone was hoping uh but uh yeah what does dream bigger mean what dream bigger means is like

1:01:05Bitcoin is the biggest idea to happen in a very long time. It's going to touch and affect all parts of life and society. We think of Bitcoin in a very small way right now. And what people need to do is unleash their creativity to imagine what Bitcoin could be in this future state where it has saturated the world and they need to build towards that. And so, you know, a year ago, it was crazy to say, hey, let's pitch the next president of the United States. I'm going in on Bitcoin. But if Bitcoin is really going to be the reserve asset of the world, that's not just that's not crazy. That's that's necessary.

1:01:47Like that has to happen. And so and it worked, you know, it worked. So it's like you have to dream big enough to be able to imagine the possible world that exists that doesn't exist today. And then you need to go about effectuating and manifesting that actually happening. What's bigger than pitching the US president about Bitcoin? Pitching God about Bitcoin? What do you do next? Well, I mean, first off, there's a lot you can do next, but there's a lot of different religions on the planet. I mean, what's the perception of Bitcoin from the Catholic Church? You know, I would make the case Bitcoin, it's halal.

1:02:34Like, what's the Islamic view on Bitcoin, you know? So, there's definitely societal institutions left to deeply penetrate. And then even the U.S., like, okay, strategic Bitcoin reserve, which hasn't even happened yet, but I think will happen soon. Um, next is like, okay, well, once we have the SBR, we need to issue government debt. That's backed by Bitcoin. We need bit bonds. We need the U S government issue bit bonds. Um, you know, I, I, one example that I think is, was a recent creative thing that I was very impressed by. I don't know if you saw this development where Fannie and Freddie Mac, the, the, uh, real estate, uh, I don't know what to call them.

1:03:13Agencies. Agencies. Yeah. Um, Um, there, they, uh, the head of that program, uh, passed a new rule that, that mortgage lenders have to factor in your Bitcoin when assessing your credit rating. That is a very good idea. That is, that is exactly what I'm talking about of the integration of Bitcoin to the real world, where if you can't imagine where Bitcoin's going, it's, it's hard to even think of that idea. But if you can't imagine it, it's like, okay, well, this is an asset every American owns. if we want them to buy real estate their assets need to be calculated and so like there's a million there's a million things like that and not just in the united states but in every country on the planet and then even beyond that it's like how do we get you know machines to use bitcoin how do we make bitcoin money of space how do we make bitcoin the money of ai how do we make bitcoin i mean i could just go on and on it's like there's unlimited design space so you know people rally around ideas and if you can paint a vision of what you're trying to achieve even if it's very ambitious, people can rally behind that cause and you can make it happen.

1:04:16And one of the lessons I learned from the election, and you mentioned earlier a random walk down Wall Street. And one of the reasons I don't believe in the efficient market hypothesis is like we built this partnership and relationship with Trump on behalf of the industry. if you looked at the polling data or any of the prediction markets, it was always basically 50-50. It was always basically a coin flip. When the president won, it unlocked how many trillions of dollars of value. And so there was always this coin flip potential outcome that the entire market world saw. Yet it wasn't actually, uh, uh, the value that it was, would create was not understood or appreciated until after the election happened.

1:05:09And so this was just like a asymmetric opportunity sitting in front of everyone where it's like, okay, if we raised a hundred million dollars for the president and we made this thing happen and he's going to go unlock a trillion dollars of value when he's elected. I mean, how, how many orders of magnitude is that? It's just sitting in plain sight for everyone to see. And so, um, yeah, I think, I think the world suffers from a lack of creativity and, uh, uh, to be able to articulate a vision, um, is powerful. Dream bigger, dream bigger, dream as big as you possibly can. Thank you, David, for doing this.

1:05:45That was awesome. Thank you for bringing Bitcoin into another dimension with the incredible work you're doing with the Bitcoin conference with your company, KindlyMD. No, we didn't even get a chance to talk about Nakamoto, KindlyMD. We'll save it for the next time. And last but not least with the red pilling of the president of the US that unlocked trillions of dollars for the industry. Thank you so much. Hey, man. We didn't do it. 15 years of Bitcoin. Bitcoin did it. All of us did it. So, but it's cool to watch history unfold from the front lines. And I recommend other people try it. It's a lot more fun to be a part of it than to watch it passively as it goes by.

1:06:30Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest names in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air. The Shift newsletter is where I share that raw behind the scene alpha. The insights, stories, and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere else. If you want the real inside take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below.