E184: Trezor CTO: How Quantum Computers Could Empty Every Bitcoin Wallet

14:26Tomas Susanka:How should a person think about risk?

14:29When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So I think in general, it's very good, you know, to be aware, like to be educated and aware. Right. So it's fine if you decide not to wear a helmet on a scooter, I suppose. but you need to know what the risks are. And I think that the education part is vital also for the risk part, right? Maybe we'll touch on that later on, but so we do self-custody, meaning that you are the only owner of your coins. But if there is someone who says, I don't want to do that, I want to leave it on exchange because, and here is the list of the reasons, I am somewhat fine with that, but I think the problem is that people are exactly not educated on the risks and not educated why that's not a good idea.

15:18When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So, yeah.

15:24Tomas Susanka:Is there a link here between someone being smart or intelligent and someone being less smart, less intelligent?

15:34When Shift Happens Podcast Host:You mean if more intelligent people are more aware of risks? I would say, for example,

15:43Tomas Susanka:there is a correlation between if there is a war in Dubai, right? The people leaving directly and not downplaying the problem or COVID when it started, right? People panicking too early are actually often extremely smart because maybe they can calculate these probabilities and say, even if they're low, this is the impact, therefore I must panic early, right? Versus the people who say, it's fine, it doesn't matter and then end up in trouble.

16:15When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, it's definitely part of that. So I agree with that. On the other hand, you could argue also that sometimes, you know, intelligent people tend to be arrogant. So in the sense of, I know how to do it, don't teach me anything. I know how to do this, don't worry about that. So there is probably some correlation. I do agree with what you said, that probably intelligent people are more aware of the asymmetric risk that we've mentioned. Whether it's full correlation or it's just part of the story, I don't know.

16:53Tomas Susanka:Why do smart people still fall for scams? Happens a lot. I have a bunch of podcasts. I mean, all of the podcast guests are very smart. Probably a good chunk of them got scammed.

17:05When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I honestly think it's really because the scammers got so good. Like really, it's really amazing in a not in a good way. Because, you know, 15 years ago when we said the scam, I think we meant this Nigerian prince that is emailing you, right? And he's writing you that he has a lot of millions of US dollars and just give it to you, right? But that's no longer the truth. Like now it's way, way more sophisticated. Like we also see it in our case that usually it's not just an email, right? They can WhatsApp you and they can also call you. So they actually usually combine these things. So, you know, they first send you some phishing email, then they send you, then they call you and they say, Hey, this is the email that we've sent.

17:55When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So, you know, they continue on that as they started and they are able really to build this feeling of of that they are genuine and also, you know, great English, fluent English, right? It's no like you can really tell AI, of course, changing that a lot because, you know, you can fake people's voice. Definitely. Podcasters, definitely, because they have, you know, enough content to do the voice synthesis or how to put it. So I really think it's that. And I think we, as people that are long time in the industry, that we tend to underestimate how difficult the whole concept is. Bitcoin is, for newcomers, it is, you know, different technology, it is different way how to look at money.

18:58When Shift Happens Podcast Host:There's a lot of things to learn, right? When you add on self-custody, it's the same story. It's really because we are in the industry for so long that sometimes we tend to say, hey, it's so clear, just don't write those words into a phishing website. Are you stupid or what? Like, what are you doing? But I think it's really a bad way how to look at this because those concepts are new to the people. They are used for their banks where they can visit some office in the city and talk to them. But there's nothing like that in Bitcoin or decentralized networks, right?

19:30Tomas Susanka:Well, there is that, but there is the fact that I knew. But there's also, I have some extremely smart friends who built and sold businesses for like$50 million who got scammed for hundreds of thousands of dollars of crypto because, for example, he was a Celsius customer. And then the whole thing went belly up. But then I still keep receiving, even now, these fake emails, right? and then saying, oh, you can get from your 300k, you can get 20 or 30k back. Just enter your seed phrase here. And maybe it's 11 p.m. and you had a long day building your businesses or working your job and you're like, oh, shit, I can get 10 % back, like I'll do it.

20:17Tomas Susanka:And you don't think and they always manage to get you at that moment of weakness or where you're tired or slightly stressed out. and you just get screwed.

20:31When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I think it's exactly that. You need just one small piece of exactly relaxed time when you're not paying attention 100 % and suddenly this can happen. It's actually a funny story. A month ago, something similar happened to me. It was evening. I was tired. I was shopping. I don't like to shop clothes. I usually ask my wife to do that, but I was browsing something and I, on my personal computer, so I was kind of, you know, not in my professional setup and I just entered Uniqlo or whatever it was in Google, right? And I just clicked on the first link from the Google Resorts because I just didn't think about it.

21:16When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I did some shopping and then just, I asked my wife, so do you also want something? And she was like, no, no, but show it to me. Oh, this is a fake website. I was like, wait, what? And I've realized that I'm on a phishing, you know, eShop, like the website was phishing. Maybe I would notice when I would actually pay it. Right. But I was pretty fascinated that like, okay, this can happen even to me because I'm really like, I don't want that to sound arrogant. Right. This is kind of scary. I feel like I'm really very good at this because this is what I do for ages. But exactly when all those radar radars are turned off and your attention is lower because you are off hours, then suddenly it can happen.

22:02When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So it was all good, but I'm just really trying to imagine how it happens to the people. And I think it's really that they come from work, they are tired they just need to send an invoice or something and that's that's how i think it

22:17Tomas Susanka:happens it's a monster business if you think about the business side of it yeah it's an incredible business yeah yeah if thomas the city of treasure can get fished are we all screwed no i i i like

22:34When Shift Happens Podcast Host:also from you know there's so many I mean at work we have so many levels or guardrails and all that so you know it would not be easy for any work staff you know I don't really have access to anything specific. No but I'm talking about people's

22:48Tomas Susanka:day-to-day life right? Are we all screwed? Like now you have all this AI stuff coming on top.

22:54When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah there's been now from so there's been you know the BTC Prague conference and just like a month ago there were you know fake Microsoft of Teams calls that were with the AI deepfake with one of those founders of the conferences, right? And you could see them on the call. You could recognize it's them. There was no doubt. It was just like, this sound doesn't work. So here, download this file and install extension. And fortunately, I believe we train our people very well. So it actually happened to two people. And both of them were like, no, I'm not touching that. Go away. And they, of course, ended the call right away.

23:33When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But, you know, yeah, the AI is changing this dramatically.

23:39Tomas Susanka:What do we do about that? I mean, maybe one thing would be, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If you get too excited about something that has no reason to happen, maybe you should not be too excited about that thing.

23:57When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, and it's exactly that, like stay vigilant and always if it's too good to be true, if it's probably fake, don't, you know, the usual don't download install because this particular case that I've mentioned on the Microsoft Teams. So I think, you know, what helped there a lot was that they were supposed to download and install something like and just don't do that. Red flag. Yeah, so these are those small red flags, but again, that's where it gets tough because as I've mentioned earlier, the attackers also, you know, they can multiply more, they can combine more sources, right? So they will call you.

24:35When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So let's say you don't install it, but they call you on your phone and they just introduce themselves. Hello, I'm John from Microsoft and I'm here to help you. And what I also wanted to add, what I think changed a lot from, I don't know, 10 years ago is that they can be patient that they really you know they can really be patient they can talk to you for weeks and really build the trust and only then you know attack so i think that changed a lot really because he has you have those big groups that are you know that have a proper funding and they really can be patient about so yeah on most trading platforms crypto

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25:58Tomas Susanka:However you want to invest in crypto, the experts at Bitwise have you covered. If you could eliminate one security mistake from humanity forever, what would it be?

26:13When Shift Happens Podcast Host:there is so many of them um but i i think quite often it comes to the fact that people are lazy on the security so that's what we discussed at the beginning right and i don't to some degree i understand why is that but at the same time if i could erase something it would be that like really to push people to be also interested in this maybe for them boring areas because exactly the impact can be huge in case something wrong you know happens so probably it would be it would be that and then also be educated on the risks of you know custody self-custody all that stuff but yeah it's tough I I'm thinking about this quite often like why are people not more intrigued by security why they just don't care more but I think it goes back

27:14Tomas Susanka:again to the asymmetric risk that we discussed and convenience maybe convenience exactly what's right balance between convenience and security.

27:22When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, yeah. It's actually something that we are dealing with all the time. We always, we always, I have this saying which is kind of complex but I really think we live by it here at Trezor. So I like the saying that says security at the cost of usability comes at the cost of security. In other words, you can, you know, the most secure way to store Bitcoin is probably if, I don't know, if you find a cave somewhere and you spend your whole life hidden there by the fire and you remember the words, the backup, that's probably the most secure way, because you are hidden somewhere in the forest, no people around.

28:08When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So that's maybe the most secure way, but is it usable? Obviously it is not, Right. Because if you want to transact and if you need to send a Bitcoin and you need to go to some forest or whatever, it just doesn't work. Right. So the security is extremely important part, but I always argue that the usability is very vital part of that story as well. And we need to combine these together. We often say also with the third pillar, which is privacy. And we need to combine all those three pillars together to form a good product that is not just secure, but also usable for the people. Because otherwise, if the security is not usable, then it just doesn't work for the people.

28:57Tomas Susanka:What's the craziest or most paranoid thing you've ever done? Protect your own assets?

29:04When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I don't think I have anything specific that I would like to share. but I've heard interesting stories and I think what also people tend to underestimate is that it's great to be paranoid. It makes a lot of sense but at the same time, if you have 10 backups and all of them are buried somewhere in your garden and then you, for example, lose the GPS or you lose the position where it was hidden that it doesn't really work either, right? Because then the backup is gone. So being paranoid is great, but I think there is balance in that as well.

29:49Tomas Susanka:What's the craziest hack you've ever seen? Or most ingenious? I would say day-to-day life. We had the founder of Bybit for the 1.5 billion hack. Obviously, it was crazy and probably one of the biggest ever. but what's something you've seen like wow this is really good

30:10When Shift Happens Podcast Host:so I would need to think maybe for some longer time I know there is this uh you know FIFA championship obviously now like everyone is into football and I there was an article shared that someone was able you know basically to uh obtain a ticket for any any uh match whatsoever right And it's kind of this fun for free. For free. Yeah. Yeah. They were just able to somehow to hack the tickets or whatever. And all they needed was the ID and they kind of was able to access the system. And, you know, that's kind of, I don't want to say funny ones, because of course, you know, it probably impacted someone.

30:51When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But those are always that are fascinating by me. What else? Yeah, I talked about the deep fakes. We actually tried to simulate it here in the office as well that our head of security was talking, but it was Matěj, our CEO, on his face and it worked quite well. But what other good hacks we had? Let me think on it some more, maybe I will come back later.

31:23Tomas Susanka:What security habits do you have in your life in general that some of your friends might think like you're crazy?

31:29When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I'm just trying to be really, you know, aware of the surroundings. And I think maybe that's what normal people don't do. Like, for example, just like, you know, look around, like know, have a sense of who is, you know, in the, if I'm, I don't know, traveling by a taxi or something like to know, trying to get a sense of the person that is sitting in front of me, you know just like these kind of things where trying to be aware what's happening on the street if you go into a shop to you know have a look how you get out like this kind of smaller smaller things that I'm always I would like to know if you know god forbid some things would happen to me where I would actually utilize these things right I cannot really tell because maybe people just freeze and and that's it but i think that's that's the thing that i'm really trying to do a lot

32:27Tomas Susanka:we talked about self-custody a bit obviously treasurer is a pioneer in self-custody but we talked last time with mate the ceo and he said that i think the number was like two percent of the people i don't know if it's the right number two percent of the people who own crypto self-custody 2 % which means that most people still don't own harder wallets or maybe they have one but they don't use it why should an average person care about self-custody if they own a small amount of crypto yeah so um i think you know of course there is the security

33:11When Shift Happens Podcast Host:aspect that's that's just for sure there's no denial in that if you hold your Bitcoin on exchange or you know some customer solution they own the the Bitcoin not you you're you are just an item in a database that says you know Thomas here has half a Bitcoin or something right and how risky is that in 2026? That's a great question. And like, honestly, of course, that the market has matured a lot. So when we had this Mountain Gox hack, what was it? 10 years ago, even more than that, 13 years ago, something like that. Of course, you know, we are, you know, those companies are way bigger. They are listed and they like they, of course, you could assume that the security is better and it probably is.

34:07When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But exactly as you mentioned, Bybit, these things still are happening, right? Because also the attackers are getting better, exactly as we mentioned also earlier, right? You have those criminal groups that are great funded and they have a lot of expertise to get in those systems. we have nation states right like there's a lot of rumors that that North Korea or the Russian groups you know that maybe have been involved in the Bybit hack so the attackers are getting better as well but what I wanted to say as well is that security is a big part of that but it's also the availability or how should I put it, right?

34:53When Shift Happens Podcast Host:If you have your coins on Trezor or any other hardware wallet, you can really use it anytime. Even if we go bankrupt, you can still use our open source software or other, right? There are other wallets that can work with Trezor. You are not depending on our systems or on our infrastructure or anything like that. And I think people sometimes underestimate this because on exchange, you know, yes, it works most of the time, though they have some down times as well, but not that big, but also they have those kind of limits, right? Like, so if you have just, I don't know,$100, maybe it's easy to withdraw, but then as the price goes up, maybe you suddenly have 1000 euros or dollars or whatever, and suddenly you need proof of residence, ID, passport, your mother's maiden name and whatever your pet is called, like those crazy questionnaires and everything like that.

35:49When Shift Happens Podcast Host:And it can be quite challenging, you know, to get to those money as well. So I think it's security, availability and also privacy because you don't have to share any of your personal details with us.

36:04Tomas Susanka:I've heard some numbers. I think a couple of years I hear$10 ,000. But it would be interesting to have your point on that. At what point or what crypto asset net worth or amount should I start looking into a hardware wallet?

36:22When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So I always said, I mean, years back, I would answer that any amount is good, but even if you start with the$1, you can get the hardware, which is true. But honestly, it doesn't really make sense to store$200 worth of Bitcoin in a wallet that costs you$250. So what I'm always saying is that once the amount reaches the amount of the device, I would argue it starts to be worth it. It's totally fine to play around on some exchange or with some software, self-custody wallet, for example. that's totally fine but I would argue that once you get to the maybe twice the amount of the of the of the device and you you know plan to keep it on that you should consider investing in that because it's quite by the way it's always amazing to me that you know sometimes you read these comments and you're getting held that Trezor save seven costs 250 and it's so expensive and then people store tens of thousands of dollars there, right?

37:31When Shift Happens Podcast Host:And they are not willing to just put tiny piece of that into the security of those holdings. So it's an interesting human character as well.

37:47Tomas Susanka:How should I think about risk management? Let's say I have a thousand dollars or ten thousand or$100 ,000 or$1 million in crypto.

37:58Tomas Susanka:Do I split everything into, I don't know, 10 % buckets and I buy different hardware wallets and maybe I leave some different exchanges and like what's a sound strategy for risk management for my crypto? At least, let's say, from a certain amount of of dollar value?

38:25When Shift Happens Podcast Host:It always, you know, depend on the usage of the person, right? So because, for example, maybe you would expect that I'm going to say put 100 % into self-custody, but I'm not going to say that. There are good reasons to have maybe 20 % in ETFs if you see value in that. Interesting. A lot of people are doing that because of tax reasons, which is kind of ironic that, you know, somewhere you have this time test that after three years, you don't have to pay taxes on ETFs or, you know, some stocks and all that, but not on Bitcoin. So people are, you know, doing it for tax reasons. Maybe you want to do it just to really, I don't know, that you don't trust us.

39:18When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I personally don't do it. I don't see that much of an advantage here. I don't here in Czech Republic. We actually do have the three years tax extent also for Bitcoin. So that's good. So what I'm just trying to say that I'm not saying you need to go 100 % into self custody, but I think the majority of that should be maybe it's 70%, 80%, something like that. And then depending on the amount, it could make sense to split it into two vendors. So yes, you can get one Trezor and one whatever competition you like. Honestly, I'm not sure if it makes that much sense because of course, you know, we're competitors.

40:04When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So, you know, we're trying to diversify one from each other. But at the same time, you know, the concept of hardware wallet stays the same. And the main advantage of hardware wallet is that it's something that is physical. It's something that when you unplug it, it's offline and you put it in your drawer and it stays offline. And that's the biggest advantage. This great architecture that we invented as the first hardware world maker. That's the thing that is the most important and that's where the security comes from. Did I answer your question? So I would go like 80-20, maybe something like that.

40:43When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But it really depends on where you're located, what are the reasons, whether you plan to sell something or not, the tax part, all that. Also, you know, of course, you cannot really buy ETF without KYC, right? So privacy, yeah. So there's a lot of inputs into that equation.

41:03Tomas Susanka:Sounds complicated. That's why people leave their money on exchanges. They're like, ah, too complicated. Fuck it. I'm just going to leave my money on Coinbase or Binance.

41:11When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But I think if you want to simplify that, then just like take all of it and put it into treasure. Like I really think there's no harm you can do about that. Just like really you can do it gradually. You can maybe do 50 % this year, 50 % the next year. Maybe that makes sense. You know, to educate yourself because self custody, it's not, it doesn't have to be binary. It doesn't have to be yes or no. You can really buy the wallet, play around, you know, put some money and then increase it and gain your confidence.

41:41Tomas Susanka:What's the most common or biggest misconception that people have about hardware wallets?

41:53When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I think the biggest misconception is that they are scared about it, that they feel that it's only for some total nerds or someone that needs to be very deep into the tech or whatever. But we're really trying to not do that. We're really trying to build products that are for a general audience, so not directly for people like I am that are in the industry for ages, but really for anyone. And we're trying to get to the parallel of iPhones or mobile phones in general. right? Like I feel 20 years ago like the idea of that my grandma would have an iPhone was kind of unreal because it just wasn't like it was clumsy and it was not that easy for them but now I feel everyone is on their mobile phones right?

42:51When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So I really think this is it like self-custody is not only for geeks it really is for anyone.

42:59Tomas Susanka:How close are we from our grandma having treasure wallet?

43:05When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I think we're pretty close but still not there completely. I think what we lack, so you know we are really very proud on Safe7. We really believe it's a great device and something that my grandma could use. You know big screen, big font and everything like that. Where I think we still have placed or some room for improvements is the backup because you know the backup is a great gift that we gave to the world like it's used by I don't know what the hundreds of millions of people and it really was a great invention but at the same time you know it is it is a threat because unfortunately when you visit the phishing website and it tells you your treasure broke down Please enter your words.

43:57When Shift Happens Podcast Host:My grandpa is going to do that. So I think this is the part that we need to improve on. And along with that, it's the topic of inheritance and all that, which you have in the classic banking system, but in self-custody not really.

44:16Tomas Susanka:How can someone who made a lot of money in crypto and wants to keep a big chunk of it in Bitcoin, for example, manage this inheritance problem like very very openly very honestly last cycle there was a certain moment where the amount was so big for me that i put everything on celsius and some exchanges i was i don't want to have this stuff and my parents i don't want to have this stuff on on a hardware wallet and i educated my parents on how to recover it right but i I was like, I don't know if they lose something or they don't remember or whatever. It can just go to Binance or to Coinbase. And it's going to take a long time to get the money back.

45:02Tomas Susanka:But they say, hey, Kevin's our son. He passed away. We're entitled to his Bitcoin or crypto.

45:13When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah.

45:16Tomas Susanka:The ETF is a good solution for that, actually. Yeah. For the security, at least you thinking, I don't take the security myself anymore. And maybe tax reasons, as you said, but also like, hey, if I pass away, like people can just go and get this back.

45:30When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, you have other risks there, like, you know, that you're dependent on the broker and all that. But yeah, no, actually, I would I would I would sign everything you've just said, because this this really is tough. And like we are thinking about inheritance and it is something we would like to introduce eventually. but it is really tough to do it in a self-custodial, decentralized manner, right? Because, you know, there's always this idea, so, okay, maybe let's put part of your recovery seat to your parents' Google Drive, right? But we don't want to be dependent on Google.

46:06When Shift Happens Podcast Host:We don't want to be dependent on Apple, right? And when you really lay out all these conditions, it's really tough to then bring something up, right? So it is something we're thinking about and I agree that that's another big challenge, not just I think ahead of Trezor, but the self-custody industry in general. Could there be situations where actually keeping assets on an exchange makes sense

46:34Tomas Susanka:and is the right choice?

46:38When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Okay, I will try to play the devil's advocate and think of something. but um so i i guess for small amounts you know for stuff that maybe if you try if you're trading if you are playing around if you want to buy the dip and then sell when it's high if that works out for you then yeah for for small amounts it makes sense but for your whole crypto stack it just doesn't. I can't really think of anything. I think there is this notion of I want to keep it on exchange because I'm scared of those hardware wallets, but it's really not that bad. I really think we, not just as Trezor, but as an industry, we really did a lot of great job to make it friendly and welcoming for newbies.

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48:19Tomas Susanka:You said before, we're not too far from our grandmother being able to self-custody, but we're not there yet. If my grandmother bought Bitcoin today, what security setup? would you recommend her?

48:37When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I mean, it again depends on the on the amounts, but I would probably hold it for her on my treasure in case she's fine with that, of course. Right. But I feel that's maybe what makes the most sense, you know, to really start low, like learn them, hold it for them. And then maybe a few years later to actually, you know, get them a treasure and learn them how to do that. I don't have a particular experience with my grandma, but my uncle, actually, I had a similar story like that. He was interested in that. So, you know, I bought him some Bitcoin. I gave it to him actually on some just like software wallet on his phone.

49:21When Shift Happens Podcast Host:He played around. Then later, one year later, he was really intrigued by that. So I gave, he started to, I started to hold it for him. And then, I don't know, the second year, I bought him treasure and he learned on his own. So I think this is a good approach in the sense that the people learn the, you know, they learn how to work with Bitcoin or within the crypto industry in general. They learn gradually, right? Like I feel like sometimes we believe that people come and they will read an article and know everything, but that's not how it works, right? like you need time to absorb all the all the new stuff so that's probably yeah how i would do it how can an average person protect themselves or avoid

50:16Tomas Susanka:social engineering and ai related hacks and scams what are the i don't know three four five things that I should do or always like be aware of or kind of like red flags I should think of to minimize the chances to get hacked or scammed.

50:41When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So yeah, I think it's be vigilant and suspicious. Like as we've mentioned, if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't that it's a fake. be very cautious what you're installing in your computer, phones, whatever. What I, for example, do, I don't take phone calls from unknown numbers. Because there was so many scams that I was receiving and ads that I started to worry to answer to them. Because as we've discussed with AI, you can really create the voice very quickly. So just from a conversation of, I don't know, two minutes, you can actually use the voice and abuse it. So anytime I receive a phone call that is not on my contact list, I don't take it.

51:31When Shift Happens Podcast Host:There is a setting on iPhone for that, so it's awesome. And I just text message them like, hey, what do you need? And if it's relevant, I call them back. Maybe that's a bit specific to me because my phone number is all over there and people are trying to do that. But again, stay vigilant in that area.

51:55Tomas Susanka:And yeah, I think there's this soundproof door here, right? I'm trying to think about the same concepts for any external interaction you or me or anyone has in their life. How do we make sure there's always this soundproof door even when you're talking to people you don't know? So I'm thinking, for example, I never ever join an online meeting where I don't send the link myself. Things like that, right? What if someone comes on your link, can they hack you? Probably not. If you don't download anything, right? Like there's, what are the things that some good things anyone can do to really prevent anyone from getting even a hand through the door?

52:44When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah. So yeah, I think this is a good example because for example, it is always good to just stay in your browser, right? Because when you, you can do a Zoom call on a inside the browser, you don't have to install the software, right? You can do Teams call in the browser, you don't have to install anything.

53:03Tomas Susanka:And I'm not everything browser, every call browser based.

53:06When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, or any interaction. And by the way, I'm not saying browsers are perfect because they definitely are not. but you know there is there's a lot of people behind those tools and they're really trying to work on the security and it's not that easy you know to abuse some zero exploit there but it is quite easy to serve you a malicious file that you're going to install right so yeah and then I would be also very careful about you know telegram and all those you know messaging platforms because there's a lot of impersonation going on there. If there is someone texting you, hey, I need to talk to you ASAP or something, it's also weird as well.

53:50When Shift Happens Podcast Host:It's always good to double check from another channel.

53:53Tomas Susanka:But they might text us, we might answer, but what's the thing we should not do? Is it a link we should not click? Is it a file we should not download? like what's the moment where even if we have an interaction with these people it becomes really critical the other day i was because for for the podcast i get a lot of requests right and so and we have another series called drops for upcoming founders and projects and like these people will be less known i really thought the other day i had i was i was telling my girlfriend was like, these people are probably scammers. But then I was like, I don't want to have a call with these people because they're probably scammers, right?

54:40Tomas Susanka:But then I thought, if I have a call and I send the link myself and I see their face, I don't risk anything, right? They cannot come with their hand through the laptop and take something. And these people were not scammers. these people actually were interested and they were willing to do business together and all that stuff. I was so wrong. But for me, I did the thing because I knew that they could not do anything in case. And if they asked me to download anything, I would say, guys, I don't know anything.

55:15When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Thank you.

55:16Tomas Susanka:Goodbye.

55:17When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I think it's exactly that. You described it very well. And also be cautious that they they might not send the link right away. Like they can help have another meeting with you and then another one and another one and then on the fourth one to tell you to download and install something, right? So that's, we've mentioned that they are cautious and patient, right? So yeah, but I think exactly like it should, you should always be the one initiating that, right? So ideally you are the one that create the meeting room, you're the one that I don't know, requires them to download or not. It doesn't really make sense.

55:58When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But yeah, it should go. I think sending a meeting link from your site is a very sensible thing to do.

56:06Tomas Susanka:Well, thinking about this thing I was talking about, like you might think all these people are willing to do business together, etc. But if you think about the Drift hack, I think the guys actually deposited one or two million dollars on the Drift protocol. So they went to the next level in terms of let's do business together. So your barriers then are down and like, right? And hey guys, download this thing.

56:30When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah. Yeah. And again, it goes to the fact that it's no more script kiddies, you know, it's no longer some, some youth just playing around, but these are really specialized groups that have this kind of funding and they can do this kind of thing. So, yeah.

56:49Tomas Susanka:The idea of self-custody sounds very empowering. Be your own bank. But the reality is that being your own bank means you need to be your own security team. Compliance department and disaster recovery plan. How do we preserve the freedom of self-custody while removing the burden that comes with it?

57:10When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I understand. But at the same time, I wouldn't be that harsh. I really think that you don't need a security team and compliance and all that. If you really stick to a few basic rules, like taking the Trezor, leaving it at home in some safe area, setting up your PIN. If you do the usual stuff, you don't really need another security team or another members at all. So I don't think it's that difficult. And now I forgot the question, sorry.

57:44Tomas Susanka:how do you preserve the freedom of self-custody if it's like so painful to do for a lot of people

57:54When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I agree I would argue it is not that difficult but yeah it's a process and also important part of that is really the compliance part because you know luckily we as creators of hardware wallets, we are not required to collect any of your information and all that. And I think it's an important aspect of the whole story. So yeah, but how we keep going with self-custody, I really think it's just making the product as simple as possible, like really to make it work for all those grandmothers that are out there so they can reuse it. Thank you.

58:43Tomas Susanka:Do you think that perfect security is impossible?

58:47When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, I actually think so. Why? There is this saying that everything is hackable and it's just a matter of time and money. And I really believe that. If you have infinite amount of money and if you have infinite time, everything is hackable. And I really think it's true. And if someone tells you, you know, sometimes I see these claims as, you know, unhackable or, and like, how do you know? Right. It's so I think it's a game of it's a cat and mouse game where, you know, we're trying to make it extremely difficult for the attackers to give you as a user enough time to find out, you know, send away your funds and all that.

59:33When Shift Happens Podcast Host:And I, by the way, think this is the honest answer.

59:36Tomas Susanka:How do you think about that in terms of treasure? So if you think, oh, look, there is an entity with infinite time and money that would come and hack all the treasure wallets. What safeguards do we put in place to make sure that if this really happens, we can tell people to get the fuck out of here, right?

59:56When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So let me illustrate it on the safe seven, on the newest treasure. So first of all, you know, they have to steal you the device. Like they need to steal it physically, right? So someone needs to go to your flat or whenever you live, steal it. And let's say you don't notice, but okay. So first they need to steal it. Then they need to take it apart without destroying anything. You know, that's probably doable. So, but you know, it takes some time as well. Then what we actually, and that's somewhat specific to us as well, that we are not trusting any particular chip company or some specific one secure element.

1:00:34When Shift Happens Podcast Host:We are trying to diversify. So that's why in Save7 you actually find free chips that together store the private keys. So we have the generic chip, we have one secure element from Infineon, and then we have the one from Tropic Square, the one that was designed by our sister company. If you break just one, you still don't get to the private keys. If you hack two, you still don't get to those keys. And if you hack three, you still don't really get anywhere because if the user has a pin on top of that, you still need to crack the pin. Then if you're a paranoid user, we also have the passphrase. So you would need to get into all of those fives.

1:01:17When Shift Happens Podcast Host:And by the way, on those chips, there is no known remote exploit. like that there's like right and again I'm not saying there doesn't exist because if you would have one year and infinite amount of money maybe you would find something but again you have those five layers that you need to break into to actually get somewhere right and you probably would notice that your treasure is missing and I would really argue that you would notice before they are able to get to layer number one, right? And you have four more. So, yeah. How much more should people upgrade

1:02:03Tomas Susanka:their Trezor device or hardware wallet device? How much more is a new device secure than the previous generations?

1:02:14When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I mean, it definitely brings something new to the table. So I think it depends from where from do you upgrade. So for example, if you're a Model 1 user, because we've introduced that 12 years ago. So honestly, the gap from both security and product twice is huge. Like the Model 1, I mean, there is some, I love it because it was our first device and it looks, there's some sentiment there. but it is basic you know yeah like if you shake it a little bit you can hear the buttons and all that so it is very basic it doesn't have secure element it does have a chip that you know with the proper equipment is uh you know you can retrieve some information from that so basically from those five layers you get to two right and then again it the question is how much money do you have there if you have just few bucks it probably doesn't matter if you have some significant amount i i would recommend to to upgrade to t7 because security but of course also because usability you know wireless usbc instead of micro usb there's a lot of things that i would argue make sense but it but just just to add i don't want it to sound that it would mean that the model one is useless like like it isn't and we've we've actually discontinued we are not selling it anymore but we've we we pledged to provide security updates for another 10 years right so like we do take this seriously that people still have money there and we don't want to it's not required but i i think it simply makes sense because the new treasures have more to offer

1:04:01Tomas Susanka:what's the weirdest place you've ever seen someone store their seed phrase

1:04:07When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So not that many people shared that with me, to be honest. So I don't have particular examples, but there was this Freedom Tech Summit before BTC Prague. And there has been this talk, and I unfortunately don't remember the author, but it doesn't matter. There was this talk where they were showing how to transform the backup words into ballet movements. Because in ballet, you have those list of movements that you can do to compose a dance. And they were showing that you can map some words to some concrete dance moves. And so instead of learning 24 words, which could kind of be difficult because just remembering random words is a bit tough.

1:04:59When Shift Happens Podcast Host:You could learn a dance and the dance would be something that leads to your fans. That was pretty cool. And maybe that can be the inheritance that you're just going to teach your kids how to dance. One dance. And then when they are 40 years old, they will find out that they have a lot of money.

1:05:16Tomas Susanka:I would say one day is to secure a hundred million dollars. One wrong move. And no money for you. how do we make self custody feel less archaic especially on this seed phrase side of things i mean you can learn how to dance yeah it's a big problem because you go to someone someone from a new generation might not question the thing may just say why do i need to write down these things on some piece of paper when I'm securing some money in the digital world. It doesn't make sense, but you're like, okay, whatever, I'll do it. Someone from an older generation that you're trying to sell the dream of this digital gold narrative and this is how you preserve your wealth through time, but you need to do so by taking a pen and a paper and writing down 12 or 24 words, but then you need to hide this.

1:06:24Tomas Susanka:And because my dad's first reflex would be, he's going to take an Excel file and write that inside there, which makes sense, right?

1:06:33When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah. Well, to some degree, I understand that. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's, yeah, as we touch on that, like I think, by the way, maybe just a small note on that. I've actually, before I started to work at Trezor, I was like thinking because I knew Trezor but I didn't have one and like before I started here I was so I was always thinking so how but how do they do the backup because I was like but if you lose the Trezor then like it's gone so you're gonna how do you do the backup you're gonna store it at the Google Drive anyway right because and only when I you know came here I've realized ah so you don't actually store it in the cloud you actually have these words that you know generate the private keys so it is really unusual concept and I do agree for many of the people it might be scary and they are vulnerable by entering it somewhere somewhere into the phishing website or whatnot so yeah I think eventually we would like to introduce a product that that doesn't have these words that it is some form of maybe it's in a card, you know, credit card shape where you store it on that something like that it needs to stay offline, it doesn't make sense otherwise, but yeah, I do agree that the format should be different because yeah, writing downwards it feels probably a little bit niche

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1:08:44Tomas Susanka:Go check them out by following the link in the description down below. Is this the biggest unsolved problem in South Coast today? Or is there something else?

1:08:59When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I would say it probably is. Because the... Yeah, dead than phishing. But those are very connected terms because it really breaks my heart sometimes because we're trying to do so much, we're trying to offer great new features, we're trying to build great products. But then at the end of the day, someone makes a website that is trezor.com with two E's in the link and people just enter the words there and it's all gone, right? So, yeah, I think it's that. I really think the backup phishing and partially the inheritance, but all of those things are connected and I think there is a solution for all of them somewhere.

1:09:52Tomas Susanka:You're a cryptographer? Have you studied cryptography? To some degree, yeah.

1:09:58When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I think imposter syndrome is kicking hard here because we have people that are very senior cryptographers. So next to them, I would say no. In general, maybe.

1:10:13Tomas Susanka:Should the crypto industry be worried about quantum computing?

1:10:19When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So that's a big topic. And like in today's world, I feel like it's very hard to warn about some stuff without causing panic. I don't want to cause panic. I don't think quantum computers are nowhere near. I don't think we're going to see them, you know, relevant quantum computer in five, probably not even 10 years. I don't think it's going to happen.

1:10:45Tomas Susanka:That being said, what does quantum computing mean concretely? Sure.

1:10:50When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So yeah, so quantum computers are, you know, special computers. It's not our traditional computers. It is especially built computers that are using quantum physics, you know, concepts where, you know, in our normal computers, you have bits where you have either one or zero in in quantum computers. you have those called qubits where you have zero one or both at the same time and that's where it gets a little bit crazy and I heard this there's this good analogy just you know imagine it that you have a coin and you spin it so in a in a in a traditional computer you have I don't know 100 coins and each of them is collapsed right so you had either heads or tails and it's done there's nothing to do with.

1:11:39When Shift Happens Podcast Host:In quantum computers you actually can spin all of those 100 coins and you can keep them in the spinning position and only after some time all of them collapses to heads or tails. And if I simplify stuff a lot this gives you some advantage and there are special algorithms that can run on those quantum computers which can affect the cryptography that we have in Bitcoin. so but by the way those computers you know they are very early we have very basic ones so you know IBM Google all those like big players are building these but they are very tiny where they are big in size but they are very small in what they can achieve right we have only for like 1000 qubits let's say so like very small and we need way more and maybe just to finish that part so I really think we have a lot of time on that, but I do feel that, you know, this changed a little bit.

1:12:35When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So I've mentioned that I've studied here computer security and cryptography at the university. So it's, I don't know, 15 years ago. And at that time we learned that they are those quantum computers that could in theory endanger cryptography, but it was like pure science fiction. It was really something that maybe our kids will worry about in 100 years, right? But throughout the time, it really changed and there has been some progress. I'm not saying huge, but significant that actually showed maybe, you know, there is a fair probability that someone will actually be able to build it. So it's kind of funny that we talked a lot about asymmetric risk in this podcast.

1:13:22When Shift Happens Podcast Host:And I think it's exactly that. The probability is very low. I don't know if it's 0.1 or 0.000 and somewhere one. I don't know, but I know it's not zero. And if there's even tiny chance, like really tiny one, that someone can build a relevant quantum computer that could endanger Bitcoin, then I think we should take the threat seriously and look into it as well.

1:13:50Tomas Susanka:Are we taking this seriously?

1:13:52When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I actually think we finally started as a community. So I really think, I mean, it depends how you look at it. Of course, it could be better, but I feel like two years ago, this was really loved by most Bitcoiners and it was not taken seriously at all. I feel like really in the past year and this year, this is getting some traction. Of course, there's a lot of people that feel that we're just spreading thought, but there are really a lot of people that are working either on the BIP360 or, you know, we are in Save7, did also some quantum part there. So I really think it's getting some traction and I'm glad that we've moved out of the whole, hey, you're spreading thought into more, you know, constructive discussions.

1:14:40When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So I think now it's starting to be a serious thing that we talk about.

1:14:47Tomas Susanka:Who is taking this seriously? So, of course, you know, it depends, but I think it's usually the companies and the individuals, right?

1:15:01When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So the BIP360 that I mentioned, done by HunterBee's blockstream research, has a great research on maybe what we could do, what we could introduce in Bitcoin. and we at Trezor are using samples quantum cryptography in Safe7. I think it was Coinbase that shared some study on the quantum thread and all that. I think in general, both individual companies are starting to realize, okay, maybe let's have a look into this just as a precaution, not out of fear, but just let's be realistic about the risk. You mentioned Trezor 7.

1:15:45Tomas Susanka:How much of marketing Trezor 7 or other companies marketing crypto products as quantum proof or safe is marketing versus actual reality?

1:16:00When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, and by the way, this is very tough and it's an important part of that because there in general, and I will answer later the treasure part, it's true that there's a lot of false PR and false marketing around this whole quantum stuff, right? And that's something that is making me angry as well. So for example two weeks ago Microsoft were introducing their new quantum chip, they have this Majorana 2 and you know they have a huge article describing what what does it bring but there's nowhere written how many qubits it has you know how many of those quantum bits it has because that's like the only thing that interests you.

1:16:48When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Not the only thing because they are they actually they you know there are many other interesting parts but I think they kind of do that intentionally because it has only four qubits and people would maybe you know laugh about that so this is something that's really making me angry because you always need to dive really deep you know move all the pr ballast away it sounds like this esg trend in banks

1:17:12Tomas Susanka:two three years ago yeah yeah and if you were going and looking at what companies were in these funds you realize oh man this is not pretty but it's good to sell and so my big problem here or my big question here is i want to understand how advanced the industry is or how seriously they're taking that not for marketing and sales purposes for their products and services but because they actually genuinely care about doing something that that is quantum proof if they really take thing seriously or they're not just spinning off a new narrative that we can sell and make money on. Which is a classic in I would say most industries, crypto especially.

1:18:01When Shift Happens Podcast Host:No, yeah, you're right. You're right. And I just wanted to finish the part. Yeah, so I just wanted to say that while there's a lot of this PR nonsense, like the science and the progress underneath all those rubbish is genuine. And that's what I think people sometimes are missing out that although yes it is covered with a lot of marketing it doesn't mean that there is nothing you know at the at the at the bottom or how to put it like there is like genuine progress and genuine engineering uh you know uh breakthroughs uh and and just to answer your question yeah i mean so i remember when we were working on the safe seven i've actually was telling to our chief commercial officer and our marketing like that I would like this to explain it to people in some sensible manner because we cannot really treasure is not quantum proof because we cannot do that because bitcoin isn't right so it doesn't make sense for anyone with a quantum computer to attack your treasure because they can attack bitcoin blockchain right away right so it actually doing in Save 7 that we are able to bring firmware update in a quantum safe manner.

1:19:12When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I don't want to be too technical, but basically you can update the software running there in a quantum safe way. And I told this to marketing and they of course stopped listening to me in one third because it was too complex. And then there is this whole debate, how do we actually explain it to people? So we came up with this quantum ready.

1:19:33Tomas Susanka:So there's an element of like quantum ready.

1:19:36When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, we call it quantum ready, which honestly, I am not very happy with because what does it mean? It's very broad. I think like we like the marketing are not that happy with it either because it's very it's simplified stuff. So we're trying to, you know, shoot the content on this. You know, we're trying to have articles to really explain this to people and like really explain it into more more details. Maybe just to add. And so while I'm not that happy about that, on the other hand, like eight years ago when I started at Trezor, we were doing really great stuff like cutting edge cryptography, but we were not able to provide it to the people.

1:20:15When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Like we were not able to explain it to the users. So there is also the other aspect of the things that while I'm not super happy with Quantum Ready, it is eye-catching and maybe then people can learn more content on that. right so it would not be good not to have anything there either because then we would not you know tell it to the user and we would not join the discussion so there are pros and cons in both i

1:20:38Tomas Susanka:suppose who is working on securing bitcoin against quantum risk because this was a big topic i mean when price goes down you need to find a scapegoat or like a reason for it this really felt like it was one of the big ones. Do you think it's priced in that? I think at least in narrative, right? I think when it's a bear market, the price goes down. No matter what. But people need to find reasons for it. Well, I also think that early Bitcoiners that might have made a lot of money, if there is this potential risk or even a small percentage, and they're very smart and they made billions of dollars, They might just say, hey, it's not worth the risk anymore.

1:21:28Tomas Susanka:I made my money. I can go and do something else. Is there someone in, let's say it's not just a narrative, which is so many and it might be one. Is there is someone, I mean, you mentioned before Blockstream. Are there people who are really taking these things seriously and saying, hey, we are taking the responsibility to make this thing not a worry anymore?

1:21:57Tomas Susanka:Because the problem of, I mean, we've seen that with Ethereum, right? And Bitcoin doesn't move, right? It doesn't change much. It's one of the strengths, but if you have a big problem like that, you need to upgrade. Ethereum is supposed to change, but it's decentralized and there's always, so no one takes responsibility for anything to happen and then it goes nowhere.

1:22:17When Shift Happens Podcast Host:And I believe this is spot on, like, you know, the, one of the biggest advantage of, of Bitcoin is that not much is changing in the consensus or in the cryptography that Bitcoin has. And that's a huge advantage. But at the same time, it's the biggest risk, right? Because this quantum thing, it just doesn't endanger only Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. It dangers the whole industry like internet, banking, governments, army, whatever. But they have this big advantage that if there's a CEO of Microsoft, he's gonna just say hey let's do it by 2029 and then the company is gonna start to do it right but bitcoin doesn't have that and it's a feature but in this sense you know that that's what sometimes i'm kind of cautiously warning about this because i i'm not worried that bitcoin would not adopt those this quantum safe uh algorithms and of course like we're gonna manage but i just wouldn't underestimate how much you know discussions and how much effort this can take in this decentralized setup right because everyone has opinion on everything there is just remember you know the the wars we had on the block size what was it eight years ago or when six years ago like you know there is what i'm just trying to say to agree on something can take a lot of time so that's why I think we should cautiously do that.

1:23:47When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Then once we agree it's going to be easy peasy maybe, but you know the decentralized narrative can slow things down a lot, which is a feature again.

1:23:57Tomas Susanka:What's something the crypto industry believes that you think is wrong?

1:24:04When Shift Happens Podcast Host:One year ago I would say it's this quantum stuff that people are underestimating a lot, so it's partially changed and then secondly I really think a lot of crypto people think that just the self-custody is extremely complex and I just don't think that's true I don't know if it was CZ or someone was tweeting that self-custody is just for I don't know 1 % of people I don't want to say that self-custody is for everyone maybe it isn't and that's totally fine when I started at Trezor I actually did believe that everyone on the planet is going to have one. Like, you know, everyone will have a hardware wallet and will become this thing.

1:24:44When Shift Happens Podcast Host:But later on, I realized that that's not the thing. And of course, the custody solutions are, you know, a big part of the market. But still, I think half of the people can be in self-custody. It's just not that difficult as they tend to claim. Yeah.

1:25:02Tomas Susanka:We used to hear a lot of be your own bank, not your keys, not your coin. We hear it less today. Maybe in the Bitcoin world not, but I would say outside we hear it much less. Has the industry oversold the idea that everyone should self-custody everything?

1:25:23When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, like when I started at Trezor, I did believe that everyone will have a Trezor. and I believe this whole thing that you will have this digital identity in the device, passwords, open doors and everything. It turns out that maybe we don't need that and maybe we are fine with the centralized solutions for that. But that doesn't mean that the self-custody doesn't have value. So I do acknowledge that the market is smaller than we maybe used to believe. I mean that the total addressable market is probably not 1 billion crypto users but I still think it's way way way way more than those two or three percent that I mentioned at the beginning.

1:26:11Tomas Susanka:What does the future with this digital identity thing you mentioned look like?

1:26:18When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Yeah I kind of lost ideals on that to be honest.

1:26:22Tomas Susanka:What would it look like?

1:26:23When Shift Happens Podcast Host:What did you have as an ideal or a dream? So my dream was really that you would have this digital identity on that completely. So you would have like a digital ID, so to speak. So you could log into any services, you could store your passwords, open doors, open your car. It could do all of those. But I think there are two problems with that. So first is that like if your treasure is this safe that stores all your savings, do you want to carry it with you to open your car? I think it just inherently doesn't make sense. If you have millions of dollars on your treasure, do you want to have it in your pocket?

1:27:09When Shift Happens Podcast Host:Like you would be worried you lose it or someone steals it. I don't know, it feels weird. Like, I would feel like, you know, having a bag full of cash. It's I just don't want to carry that around with me. So yes, you could buy another treasure, of course. But then I think, you know, the second problem is that people I don't think people are willing to spend 60 bucks for just storing their passwords or whatever. Right. So we will see what happens. There is also this problem that the device needs to do something. it needs to be displayed so it cannot be for five bucks right the cost has to be higher i'm not just not sure if the demand is here for that it's simple as that

1:27:55Tomas Susanka:is there a point where self-custody has become too complicated

1:28:00When Shift Happens Podcast Host:for most people i i really think it's i i think really i really think it's the opposite i really think we've made a tremendous amount of work. And really, 10 years ago, I do agree, it was geeky and very technical. But I really think we've moved a lot from that. And just give it a go if you're listening. Like the way you can use Save 7 is really so much easier that I really think we self-custody is not a problem. You just have to be aware of the risks and you have to deal with the backup properly. That's again what we talked about.

1:28:42Tomas Susanka:What's the most dangerous piece of advice you've ever heard in crypto? Or that you commonly hear in crypto?

1:28:53When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I think in general is this aspect like keep it with us we're gonna secure it right whether it's exchange or some closed source software or whatever like this notion you know of someone will take care take care of it for you it's we're going the opposite way we're trying to say this is something you know that you can verify yourself or you know independent researchers verify yourself you can use it without us you're not dependent on us right like we're trying to sell this independence while you know the others I think are on the other hand trying to lure you into their products you know so they can squeeze more money out of you on their services but yeah we're trying to go the other way like the through you know the transparency and openness.

1:29:43Have AI tools made people safer or more vulnerable?

1:29:50When Shift Happens Podcast Host:I actually think both because it helped on both sides. So it definitely, you know, make the attackers more capable. Again, as we discussed deep fakes, you know, finding some malicious code or just simple stuff as fluent English, right? like they can use AI for all of those things so they definitely got stronger. On the other hand also AI is helping tremendously you know in in any software development so you know finding critical security bugs or finding bugs in general advancing the development so I think it goes on both sides. It's gonna be you know interesting to see how it unveils but now yeah I think it's on both.

1:30:44Tomas Susanka:What's the one thing that every crypto user should do immediately after watching this podcast?

1:30:50When Shift Happens Podcast Host:So buy a treasure. Like if you are a hardware world user I think it's it's always good to to check your setup like to do you know to do the check backup thing like find out where your backup is double check it's the correct one and all that because those are exactly the things as we discussed that people tend to postpone and just leave it for later later and later until it's too late so maybe maybe that would be that just really double check where your funds are how they are secure where is your backup if you decide to buy a treasure

1:31:26Tomas Susanka:don't forget the promo code in the description everyone thank you thomas for doing this that was very informative very useful for me and hopefully for everyone else and that was a tough one. Thank you for having me. As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest names in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast, but a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air. The Shift newsletter is where I share that raw behind the scene alpha, the insights, stories, and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere else. If you want the real inside take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below.

1:32:10Thank you.