E126: Swissborg Founder: How to Get Rich in Crypto (without getting lucky)

27:33I never got to get into a company that was like high-fiving everyone, like, I love you guys and all that. Why do you think you got fired from all your jobs? I think this is quite a common thing for entrepreneurs. I mean, non-VC entrepreneurs, like self-made entrepreneurs that, you know, I've been there since day one, not like I spin off and I'm a B2B VC back to, which is great, but it's a very different approach. You're more like a consultant of the first business you were and then you grow your business. When you're a real hustler, a street hustler, like myself, you have a different vision, I think, of shit.

28:11And you just, and I was always so independent since I'm, it's very early that, you know, you go into companies and they don't see the value you do, you work maybe faster than they do. And then they don't really realize that. And then they don't reward you in a good way. And then I worked in banking and hedge funds. Not like these guys are kind of motherfuckers, right? They're probably the worst. Unmanageable and on the top, you question everything, right? Around you. You don't trust that systems work basically. And I think so at the end as well, it's difficult to wear a tie when you want to wear a hoodie.

28:48That's the truth as well. I had a tie yesterday though, but that was nice for, everyone was like, why do you have a tie? I'm like, well, it's the, whatever, this religious thing that someone invited you to. So I thought I had to put a tie in, everyone had the ties, but they're like, dude, you never come with ties. I'm like, well, yeah, I can still wear a tie for a Sunday. It's okay. But every day I think so is difficult. And then when you're in a winning, losing zero sum game is a bit difficult too. And you're servicing rich people. Your mission was never mission driven either. I think that's the most important is you have a mission-driven activity, then you don't count the hours, you don't count the money.

29:27And you probably don't burn out either. The burnout doesn't come from overworking, it comes from working on things that don't have meaning to you. 100%. Or lack of direction too sometimes. You talked about zero sum game, right? And positive sum game. Your favorite topic is how millennials and Gen Z can hack the financial system. What do you mean exactly by hacking the financial system? Yeah. So everything in Europe, and this could be in portrait probably elsewhere in the world, is we're born in social classes and you will never grow to another social classes. And it's done in a very rudimentary way.

30:11In the US, to some extent, it's a bit easier to jump from social classes, but most most countries they don't want you right you you're born in a neighborhood you'll fit you're studying that neighborhood you finish that neighborhood and and you'll you'll you'll be there forever why is that the case who is deciding that yeah just the elite right zero zero one percent of the planet today controls 40 of the wealth right and this is just growing we we had 19th century where, you know, there were just like two social, three social classes. We got into 20th century where there was a redistribution a bit.

30:48And I think the baby boomers have brought new ways to like create better social classes. But since the 21st century, it's pretty much the opposite. It really was about centralizing and even more in the last 10, 15 years has been horrible, right? Like, you know, the Elon Musk of the planets, you know, 20 guys control like, you know, 10, 20%, I think, of the planet right now, right? So, and that will just grow, grow, grow exponentially. And the reason is normal. Like, the planet is, people don't think it's as big as it is, and you want to control your neighborhood and make sure that no one that has a different religion, color, or mindset comes into your playground, right?

31:27And play with your toys. So, if you think about that, it's quite sad, right? And because you're not going to, you think you're going to be evolved at 18. You're going to study. You're going to find a girlfriend. And the first stupid investment you're going to make is, oh, I'm going to find a stupid apartment to buy. And what that means, that means you're locked in society. Done. That means you can't change jobs anymore. You're going to take a shitty mortgage. You're going to put all your money for the next five years into this mortgage to pay the down payment of 20%, which is, let's say, I don't know, for house, for apartment today, it's, I don't know, 400K in most, 300K maybe in some European places.

32:11So you put 60K from your salary, and then you're going to pay an installment of, let's say, 1 ,000, 2 ,000 euros every month. And that's done. That means you can't change jobs. That means you can't invest. And that means you wake up and you're 50 years old and you have nothing besides an apartment. I want to tell my friends who have a bunch of friends in their early 30s who want to buy a house because it's a good investment, right? It's a good asset. You say the opposite. Buying a house and taking a loan isn't the way to change your life. No. Why? So if you're 20 here and you're listening to this video, you have to find the guru.

32:53You have to go in different companies that you really strive for and you're going to have to work your ass off. find this guru that will teach you what life is all about. Okay? If you don't get that, well, then just do a startup right away because you'll just be your own mentor. In your 30s, you want then to take all the risks you want. And I think so to investing, if I may, it's the same thing. In your 20s and your 30s, you have to take the biggest amount of risk because you don't need that stable income. You don't care. I mean, besides if you have kids at a young age, all of that, maybe that changes a bit the picture.

33:25But if you don't have that, who cares? Why would you buy an apartment when you could afford a huge villa when you're 50 years old? You said in your 20s, either start a business, either find a guru who tells you what is life about. I mean, at work, I meant. I mean, really try to look at like, you know, Anthony, for example, he started his career and it's a guy from the community. That's like a huge guy from the community that I love very much. That was a great mentor to him. And now it's back. He's back as advisor or a big token at least. And he found a way to connect to him to understand like what are the financial markets and whatsoever, how to get to be better understanding the markets.

34:05So those are the years where you have to explore your identity, find different people that will tell you exactly when you're 30 years old, what do you want to do? Because you don't want to wake up at 60 and like, oh, I want this new job and put everything aside and grow my business of whatever. of whatever. It's in your 20s that you want to try a lot of things. Then you want to settle, you want to start working very hard in your 30s to develop that core strategy and whatever you're good at, right? So that's my idea of finding a mentor at work or in life is at 20, you have to play around out that way.

34:41How long did you need to find your thing? Still thinking every morning when I wake up, what am I doing? I mean, that's for sure. Chad Gbt helps me for that. But, uh, Chad GPT psychologist version, right? Oh, I come in, coming to the show. He's like, hype me up before the meeting, Kevin. He's like, yeah, you're going to do great Sarah's. Chad GPT's little voice, you know? Uh, I mean, you, you do a lot of experiences, right? In, in your twenties. And then you, you've, it's like with women or men or whatever, they, you find a lot of things. You find the attributes of who might be your soulmate in your thirties, right?

35:17And then in your forties, you maybe go a little bit further than that. and you have kids and all that thing. So my point here is the society wants to rig you by saying, don't take any risk. Become a department employee of this company. I will give you a retirement plan that's never going to exist. Most Gen Z know that today, or millennials at least. We know that we're never going to get retirement. Maybe in Switzerland we will, but in most countries we won't. And that you invest into real estate and then you think this is great. And then maybe you will do some stocks when you're in the 40s. You'll do a 4 % average return.

35:57Great. With 10K. I had this conversation with my parents yesterday evening, actually. Because my parents or your parents, when they come to you and they say, hey, buy a house, this is a great investment. They probably don't mean bad. it was an amazing investment for them right true and i told them our crypto is your real estate right that's something that instead of maybe just saying like the entire system is rigged etc might be the case probably the case it's more it's more hey like we there is a new opportunity in every generation and these generations opportunity is actually different from the previous one but our parents don't mean bad when they come and they say hey buy a house i think so they're educated in a way that is hacked no i think this is very very more uh it's very more uh how do you say it uh anal in a way that the snake bites you because the thing about buying a house is not the house is only a bad investment you're attached to the dealer that you have to pay every month the subscription fee to that right you have that guy's like yeah just do that crack thing and then you're into the crack zone right then he's just like taking your pipe and and and smoking that interest rate of that mortgage of five percent per per per year for a shitty condo that's gonna do three percent yeah so it's a bit sad and then the guy can't change jobs and then he gets married so he can change less jobs and then he gets kids and his his career is gonna work all his life and the same job because he's like whoa whoa whoa so i have this down payment every month, right?

37:37You're saying the house is not only a bad investment, but also you have this kind of crack every month, right? Yeah, the banker will put you in that. Why do you say that the house is not a good investment? If we were thinking even without these monthly payments and mortgage? Well, 3 % per annum. I mean, if you, like we talked about earlier, the down payment of the house is gonna cost you not, you know, it's gonna cost you a big amount and with that 50K or 200K or whatever you have to be in pace in your country, you're going to put that with a 3%, 4 % return. A 3 % return, imagine in crypto, that would be like, even USDC could do that by itself, right?

38:15It's really a low investment. So if you're happy where you are, yeah, do it. But if you want to grow, well, then invest in technology. The secular trend is there, right? Like NASDAQ has been doing 14 % per annum if you take off the banks with a NASDAQ for the last 20 years. The Swiss market, SMI, has been doing 4 % or 5%, same as the euro, right? That's a good one. There's something called the hurdle rate, right, that Raupal talks about. It says basically if you don't beat 12 % annualized, which is inflation plus asset price inflation, central bank money printing, if you don't beat 12%, you're actually losing money.

38:57S &P 500 doing 12%, so basically a year, right? So if you look at S &P 500 from bottom of a great financial crisis to now, you think, oh, I'm up 6X, right? So 7X, whatever, 600%. Actually, you made zero money. Real estate, down. S &P 500, zero money. NASDAQ, I mean, you say 14, like Raul says 17, but you make some money, right? 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%. The only one that actually destroys everything is Bitcoin and crypto. Of course. and in some way like why their parents are saying like oh buy real estate yeah because you know they're they're they're the exit liquidity of these not our parents of the system in some ways like how do you reinforce how do you fight inflation as to these things right but you're you're essentially just you know investing into what other generations have been fucking up on our generation so just don't take that crap move into something that's liquid that you could own and that has substantial returns.

39:56And that's technology for sure. I watch you on this big French podcast called Legend. And I think you were saying that our parents had to pay like three times their salary for a house or three and a half. Yeah. And we have to pay 10 or 15 or... Yeah. Which shows like the problem, right? Exactly. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the magnitude of real estate compared back in the day, the purchasing power is just, yeah, four times less than that it was. So that's as well another thing. And as society moves, real estate will not always be the best thing, Elizabeth, that way. Things change. Technology is the best thing today and people still don't open their eyes and figure this out.

40:36Which is why it's also an amazing opportunity for businesses who want to help people. We're recording this podcast in Switzerland. Land of democracy. Which is a big inspiration in crypto, actually, right? It is. I don't think the majority of Swiss people or even European people in general are big risk takers. No. Why should someone in their 20s or 30s, you mentioned before, take more risks? And if they're scared or not wired that way, how do they learn? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, what you have to understand is, like, our generation spends so much time on social media, right? are so i think so 90 percent of of uh of people use internet on social media 50 percent of people that are on internet use so pretty much 50 percent of the planet plays video games 40 percent plays video games sooner or later okay i say axie infinity is the best thing for video games and but sooner or later this is going to be a game like maybe guns uh sorry not guns is the token but but the off the grid, if you played the game or not.

41:49I didn't. It's a freaking awesome game. It's not on Mainnet on Avalanche yet, but it should be on Mainnet sooner or later. And you'll be able to play the game, right now you're making tokens, and the tokens you could buy shit with it, buy new guns, whatever you want, and be able to sell it. And I don't know what GTS6 is gonna be, but sooner or later people are gonna be playing on top of blockchains, right? And with these decentralized applications, being the source of the front end of how you have a token economy around it. So people are going to play with blockchain. Why not go a little bit behind the scenes and say, okay, instead of weighing the main application that I'm going to use just for fun or for doing social media on chain, why not investing in the core structure of it, the infrastructure of it, right, which is all these blockchains.

42:37It's buying piece of internet in the 1990s, right? and the applications will come up and will be like freaking huge. But at least from there on, you would understand even more what it is. And as you know, it takes at least a cycle to understand some of it. But, you know, if you work a little bit every day, 20, 30 minutes, you know, like yourself, you could end up with a beautiful body, right? And here it's the same thing. You break 20, 30 minutes, maybe 20 minutes per day, looking at different information. It's the same. It's the same thing. You get into it and it's fun. It's not like in a, in a, in a boring, I mean, look at this.

43:15I mean, imagine us being a banker. Yeah, it's fun. We look very insurious here. Exactly. This is cool. But we are serious. We're in Bengal in the sky. It's a fun industry. We're not like boring people either. Yeah. What's the potential if I invest in a high risk asset like crypto? The potential of returns. I mean. Cause like, let's take the kind of conventional wisdom. If we don't think about the high. the journey would be first people think I should save my cash in the bank terrible idea but better than not saving and being in credit card debt right the second one is I should buy real estate probably not great the third one is I'll put this cash that I save into an S &P 500 right yeah or NASDAQ let's say S &P 500 if I put I think the calculation is at whatever eight ten twelve percent a year you put 500 bucks a month every month for like 30 years and then you make like one or two million dollars so you kind of retired right right that takes 30 years what about crypto i mean 2010 you put one dollar you have two million dollars and there you go 15 years later you have to 12 to 2 million percent no i mean you can't rewind and get an always that oh imagine if you're in bitcoin i think the idea is to to understand first an investments, who are you and where do you want to go?

44:40And based on that, you're going to figure out again who you are and where you're going to go. You're going to go back and forth. And I'll make this simple. So I started with Julius Baer in 2007, where I lost all my money, by the way, in 2008. It was amazing. 50 % lost it. I drove down. So I was already, I mean, very used to Baer markets. I started my... You're a Swiss bank, right? One of the best Swiss bank we have, private bank, portfolio advisory, portfolio management, and I had clients as well already. And I was managing their money or advising to manage their money. And meanwhile, you were losing all your money yourself.

45:14And I was losing, yeah, well, it was the biggest, I mean, at least the biggest crack that I've seen so far, because I didn't see the 1997 or the 1987, sorry. But that was a big crack, right? It was not like this last 34 days. the one thing that I learned very well is you always have to understand who you are. With rich people, usually it's quite easy because they already got to that moment where they have a lot of cash, where they inherited the cash. So they have this culture of cash and all that. For most people, we don't know. Like where do you want to set yourself in two years, five years, 10 years?

45:54Those are difficult questions. And how much money do you want to do for getting those goals happen. So you first really have to dream, right? Dream like, is there something on the short run that you have to do for? Last time I told you I bought a flat for my mom, right? My brother and myself, we bought a flat for my mom. That was very important. It was not a huge investment for both of us. We could have done that. It was easy. So we want to put my mom in a cool crib. So that was our thing on the short run. Then the mid run would be eventually myself to get a house. The long run for me is creating a foundation, in a DAO that could help, you know, the million people and go further than that.

46:30It was that way, right? So now how to, based on that, how much money do I need to get out from the market in each cycle, right? And that's how I did the thing. I measured in cycles because I thought it makes more sense than in shorter than cycles. And I started to say, okay, well, if I need to abstract that from the market, I need to be investing this amount day one, and then I need to invest every month into the market, right? And then the next step is how you build your portfolio, right? But those are very important questions that people don't figure out is short-term, mid-term, long-term, what's your goals?

47:10And if you don't do that, you do that, then it's very hard to see like, are you making good amount of money? Are you able to cash out some money or not? Or do you you really need to cash out some money, right? A lot of people have always saying, do you trade always the market? I do for fun in these things, but I always said I will always have this amount of Ethereum, this amount of Bitcoin, and it'll never go lower than that, regardless of whatever happens. So in trading, I was just more to buy more Bitcoins, more Ethereum, more Borg tokens, more Solana, all these core tokens that I have. Did it work out?

47:52The trading? Because you see people trade and lose money and end up with less Bitcoin, less Ethereum, less... Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, no. No, of course not. No, you lose. But you never know what's your core in the beginning. Right? You don't know who your best friends or family is. And that's the second thing that's very important is you know where you want to head in terms of short-term, mid-term, long-term terms of dreams and investment objectives. now you have to invest into assets so when i started in 2016 okay start selling my stocks bought some bitcoin bought some ethereum and then all these other altcoins that don't exist anymore right besides ave i mean all the rest died uh so you you i lost a lot of bitcoins there uh and i I lost a lot of Ethereum as well.

48:46I mean, Ethereum was at$20. I was putting$3 ,000 worth of Ethereum. So that's, yeah, at least 100 Ether per ICO and all these ICO went to zero, right? So you lose, but you learn. And then you start to figure out, okay, what is now my core portfolio? Bitcoin, Ethereum, of course, was per token. And then in this cycle, Solana became my core. It was a satellite, but then it became my core. And today Solana will probably be my core for at least this and the next cycle probably. Interesting. But who knows if Sui is gonna be my core, right? That's the big question as well. Like, you know, the tech people internally are all excited about that.

49:33And these Greek guys are getting along with our Greek guys and the Swiss guys as well. So we're trying to figure out like, is through the next big Solana thing. For now, it's my satellite. So I will sell all my SWE to cash out in the cycle. However, if it becomes in my core, I will probably be the same strategy. But like, whatever happens, I will keep X percentage of my SWE. Because the concept of core satellite is very important. You want four or five of your best friends or family members in your portfolio, and then you want to trade the satellites. right uh and satellite speak is tactical traits that you have in the cycle you come in and out that's very important i think so what are your four or five cores bitcoin eth borg i guess or and so yeah yeah just as a to put this into context right we said before uh snp is 12 percent on average, Nasdaq 14 or 17.

50:3515, yeah. Bitcoin is like 150 % or 130. And even if we say it's going to get much less in the future, let's say it's 30 or 50%, that's still so much higher than the rest that people, that's what they need to understand, right? Because the first reflex of most people is, oh, but Bitcoin is 100K. It's too expensive, right? Yeah. You can buy an asset or a fraction of an asset that is is doing 100 % annualized, which is more than five times the second best asset class. Right. I think Nasdaq is down 99.9 % versus Bitcoin in the last 13 years. So there's no second best. It's not second best. No, there is.

51:21I have a really problem with this guy, to be honest. Not the fact that this thing is a Ponzi and all that. I don't think so it's a Ponzi because he's buying IOUs, I think. So Bitcoins of Coinbase. So even as the cell is converts versus the physical Bitcoins, they will not plummet the markets. I think so it's loans that he's actually buying to Coinbase. I'm not 100 % sure of his theory, but I think so that's how he's doing it. Like that they won't create this because a lot of people think. Yeah. Microstrategy could be the biggest black swan of this cycle. I don't believe in that one. But the second best thing is a bit like him not understanding Bitcoin until 2020.

51:59It's a weird one. Like, how can a smart guy being to NASDAQ, being one of the main NASDAQ guy, woke up in 2020 to buy Bitcoin? Definitely a smart guy. But then there's no second best of courses. Second best, there's Web3, man. The whole point of crypto is not just to have digital gold and a means of payment. Even if we scale Bitcoin, you know, for Lightning and all that and make it a payment, which is completely plausible in multiple scenarios. You still need an internet. Yes, but in terms of investment, beating Bitcoin is very hard, right? Like on a long timeframe, most altcoins or other coins actually don't beat Bitcoin.

52:43And that's probably one of the reasons why he says that. I mean, obviously he's a maximalist and obviously he's a huge believer in Bitcoin. I mean, we all are. But looking at just outperforming Bitcoin is extremely difficult on a long timeframe. And that's something that I think we all kind of realize. I agree, but until the next. Crypto is just a new NASDAQ 2.0. Just things clear. It's just a new NASDAQ. Investing in NASDAQ in 2001 or prior to that, you had to have balls of steel, right? It was to be like... Very good example. 2007, at Julius Baer, smartest investors, there was a very small portion of people investing NASDAQ.

53:24That's 2007. That's how NASDAQ was still like a crypto thing. Because there was not so many applications from Web2 that were like huge. Okay, there was Google, the protocol, but tell me like Meta and all that, they were not listed, these things, right? So there was not like there was a huge amount of like cool stuff on NASDAQ, which are on application levels. So similar to what's happening today in crypto. So the thing is that, yeah, Bitcoin is great. Bitcoin five years from now, there's gonna be another crypto that's gonna demonstrate the next five years that's gonna kill it, I strongly believe, that's for sure.

53:58And will it be Solana, will it be Ethereum, will it be SWE, or will it be an application, who knows, but time will come.

54:08Every civilization, every cycle, there's new religions that happen. And I always say that, you know, everyone will always respect Bitcoin as being the main character, but then there's other news stories around it. You got to rich in crypto? Got a good amount of money with the risks I put into it that way. So let me ask you, how do I get rich in crypto without luck if I don't build a billion dollar company like SwissBorg?

54:48Well, the easiest way is it does not exist. There's no easy way. That's the truth. Because whatever comes easy to your face in life, you'll lose it. Because you don't deserve it. I mean, again, your body, man. How much push-ups do you do per day? Or sorry, is there days you don't do push-ups? I never do push-ups. I never do push-ups. Well, okay, push. See, I do pull-ups. I train chest and arms like one to twice a week. Only? Yeah. In areas of good genes, put it that way. No, it's just a different kind of training. You like focus on certain muscles every, like four times a week. But you always do it.

55:31So you mean every year you do those 20... Every week I train four to five times a week. Yeah, forever, since I'm 16. So that's my point. It's like you can make it easy. I mean, there's that kid on Twitter. I hate that kid. silly American kid, like Cypher or something. Like, Brad is going to$10 billion, going to$30 billion, you'll see as the best investments and all that. And then he was very cocky in different shows and he was the best meme trader and all that. I can't forget this, I forgot his name. There's many of them. Yeah. There's too many of them. And I follow the reason, because I did, I do say people, I should put them as NFTs by the way, and they like all these fake, stupid things that they say.

56:15and he probably lost all his money, right? Is he going to remake it? I don't know. Let's see. The point is that it's very hard to have sustainable money in the wealth and build your wealth on the long run, right? It's just, it takes time. But maybe this kid from what, he just lost 95 % of his cash in his memes, he's maybe now going to build something amazing from it, right? And that's a huge possibility or he's just going to, you know, whatever. unfortunately going to rehab the the the the question is now how do you don't fuck it up in a way that you do the right things dca is obviously the core thing just try to figure out three four ones especially if you're in the beginning just doesn't like go with the simple ones and one that is completely crazy like the top three ones you know whatever the three ones you believe it is.

57:12You know, if you believe Bitcoin, Bitcoin should be, I think one of it. If you like scalable technology, maybe Solana could be a good one. If you like more robust type of maybe a bit older ones, but still works very well, Ethereum could be a good one or go for maybe new nascent sweet one, you could go a little bit crazier and then figure out some other tokens that, you know, you, you know, you, you could like because you're in video games or you're into DeFi or you're into these event applications that you actually like or the science, whatever it is, whatever makes you excited, try to find one token.

57:46Because even if the narrative is not around that cycle and this cycle is not around that sector, there's still going to be one that's going to be doing quite well and you're going to have fun. And worst case scenario, yeah, well, I bought storage because I thought decentralized storage was going to be great in 2016. Well, that didn't happen yet. But did I lose a lot of money? No. Did I learn a lot? But yes, and I know that Deepin is now a big thing, at least in this cycle, and there's real use cases and Render is one of that, but there's so many other ones, right? And thanks to what we thought about with Anthony 2016-17 on storage, enable us to detect, Render and other different type of Deepin tokens that did extremely well in this cycle, right?

58:29So that's the right approach to do it. And you auto invest, right? You just, every month you start your budget, you invest in these tokens, and then every month you get in, you get in. And when you start to make a good amount of money, take out some money from the market. You just have to take out some money. You can stay forever into crypto because a lot of these tokens go to zero. That's the truth. So the huddle, we're all gonna make it, so that stuff. Will happen for the great projects, but how many projects are more than five years old or tokens that still have like real use cases and a business model to it.

59:09Because there's two things. And the thing about crypto is so difficult is many founding teams make too much money in a very rapid way. Second thing is that they create, they could create tokens by the tokens being used. That's very difficult. And then the third thing is that, do they really have a business model that is viable? What are the business models in crypto that work today? stable coins, blockchains, exchanges, launch pads. And then there's a kind of exchange also. Yeah. And the rest is, there are a few, and there are more than that, but there are not so many as well that way. And it's startups.

59:49So startups, you know, have a 99 % of chance of going to zero. Which is what I think people realize more and more now, this cycle before they were thinking, all these tokens are going to the moon altogether every four years, even if it's shit, it's going to go up. No, these are actual startups, and most of the startups fail, and in crypto it's the same, right? Yep. You mentioned before some people going to rehab. There's even some people killing themselves, actually, like in the last couple of days. But did he kill himself or did he kill us? I didn't get that at the end. It was a hard one. No, I'm not talking about this dude that you're thinking about, the Zero Bro guy.

1:00:25Zero Bro guy. There was another dude, a trader yesterday. that actually his wife took the account and said, my husband is dead, right? Because you mentioned this very boring concept, like dollar cost averaging and buy only like top coins. But most people, I would say when they come to this space, they would maybe start with that, but they're like, man, it's itching me to like go and take more risks.

1:00:51Raoul the other day told me, this space is so full of risks, you have to be paranoid at all time. How do you avoid getting fucked, which happens to so many people who joined the crypto space full of good intentions and great motivation and yet end up leaving poor and disappointed nine times out of 10, if not 10 times out of 10? I think the thing is that it's a fake, it's a fake lie to say that you're just gonna do very, you're gonna be very successfully at every level in your life without putting the effort in it, right? If you go to a gym and you buy the membership card, you're not gonna be fit if you don't, if you don't go with the trainer or you go with friends, right?

1:01:32Or you're very driven, for example, I do a lot of sports by myself. That's a very weird thing by the way. I just realized most of my sports I do alone. So that shows I have a drive to somewhere and I just need to do that thing. If you're not able to do that already by yourself, try to find a community where you could have fun with. And I think that's the one thing that, you know, some investment clubs offer and what SwissBorg is offering too, is how do you get access to not only, you know, a great application that enables you to get to use the right tools the most easiest way, but as well feel part of a community where you're on Twitter or you're on, you know, on Telegram or whatever you want, Discord or Reddit.

1:02:29And you meet as well in real life and you start, you know, sharing the struggles and the pain, but as well the love as well in the good times. And I think that's something that you see a lot in crypto. And there was a bank who came to me last week. It's like, but how do you guys do this community thing? It's just a weird thing. I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, our business model works well and all that. But you have this weird magical twist to your to Swiss port. and like that's the crypto thing i mean do we put in more than most cryptos yeah because we show our faces and we really meet in real life which not every project does right and not every founder takes the time to do that and and for whatever reasons characters are different but the the the the the fact of doing this thing together where people like they feel part of a thing that is bigger and they they they they they feel like they're part of a football club and they own the tokens and all that.

1:03:29Probably possible only with a token, right? That's what the bank maybe is missing or not understanding. I mean, there's other things obviously, but. That's what I told them. I mean, the token and, and, and the crowdfunding of that token, because, you know, you see our reviews are five stars or one star, you know, you never gave, rarely get two stars. Oh, four stars, one is French people's higher because, you know, as French people can never put perfect, you know, perfection does not exist in France. So they put a four star inside of five. But what you get very often from the five stars is some cool people like, seriously, this app or this ecosystem.

1:04:04I remember in 2017 when it was a joke that became then less a joke, then became the hell. And then they released the app and all these things. And you see all these different things happening and the app evolving in such a way that people like say to share like, well, you know, we love what you guys have built. What are the one stars saying? The one star thing is, that's a very good one. It's mainly compliance issues, which is like, oh, they're asking me all these questions. I'm like, yeah, we're regulated, man. We have to ask those questions. That's one of the main, I would say one of the main problem.

1:04:41Number two is sometimes we get funny ones. You get funny ones? Funny ones. Yeah, I invested 200 and now there's only 150 left. This is a scam. Dude, the market corrected. You know what? How is this a scam, man? I mean, that's the investment. So we have some regarding performance of the market. But like those ones that I really want to answer them personally, but yeah, we don't. What's one big mistake that people make when coming into crypto that is very counterintuitive and looks so good on the outside, but ends up very badly every single time? It's an easy one. The Great Fear Index, everyone always invests when you're over 70.

1:05:27Everyone sells when you're at 10 or 20. It's the opposite. You should only really be able to invest when shit happens, right? You see Trump around. When shit happens. Exactly. When the shit happens, that's when you make the move, because that's when you build substantial wealth. It's very hard, though. It's very hard. I mean, for everyone. And, you know, it is very hard, but that's what people usually do. And then number two, people get to invest in way too many tokens. It's a weird thing of, uh, and even myself, to be honest, I, I get sometimes I get a little bit, you know, oh, this, this, this, and I understand all Sarah's who invest in my project.

1:06:09We're about to launch it. And, you know, I don't want to say no, because I like the guys, you put some tickets are there and there, and then you just like, forget about all these different things that you can follow. and a real portfolio is that you need that core and you need that satellite and you need to monitor it. That's the truth. And then you need to take profits. And again, that's why you really have to, in the beginning, you really need to narrow down, write down, like the way I do it is like, I did fucked up on that one, but I bought most of them sold at 10, between 10, I think maybe 14,$15.

1:06:43When it was at, I said, when it'll be at 250, I'll sell half of it. Very hard, so hard to do. And then it was Christmas, I think so. And I was like, oh, and I was about, I was pressing on the button and then people talked to me when I was at that night, it was at 2.50, I was like, oh, maybe this is a sign. No, it wasn't a sign. I should have pressed on the button and bought back at 1.20. The Trump launch actually was like, so I was going to 2.90, but who wants to sell when Trump launches a meme coin? You're like, fuck man, this is going to 1 ,000, right? People actually calling for$1 ,000 and then you're like, in retrospect, always.

1:07:20It made so much sense. In retrospect, it was the top, right? Yeah. 29 eggs on one of the main tokens. That's a lot of money in one year and a half. That's a lot of performance. So you have to write those down and have like a journal on team. You could talk to JGBT about your positions and have that. That's something you do very often and just have this thing. Like, what do you think? And what are you doing? all based on our prior conversation. And that's something definitely I want to bring to SwissBorg. That's my big, big, big thing with Anthony. We really want to bring that. Something very good actually would be if you're using GPT a lot to tell GPT, Hey, if I don't sell when the price is that much, stop talking to me until I say, I can't use you anymore.

1:08:04That would be, that would be amazing. Right. I mean, we're probably so greedy. We would still say, fuck you, GPT. I'll, I'll research a book or I'll lose use another AI. Yeah, exactly. And then you'll just send the AI, whatever, but yeah. Yeah. Or you just listen to your wife or to your girlfriend or whatever. They, I mean, not always, but they, women, we see this in the app though. Women have a very good, they manage very well the risk. This is more obvious to them, but they take profits, women, in general. They don't do the crazy, let's go to the moon, and even when you're on the moon, let's go to Mars, and Mars, and they slide it.

1:08:42There is also a lot of studies on women founders that they don't blow up, right? So most of them don't. Yeah. Except one or two are like very special examples. Like women are much more, much better at like managing money and risk. And they don't have this ego that we have. Like I want to get rich and I want to be better than the others. And I want to show everyone. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's the alpha male thing. Yeah. Yeah. You really love yields, right? Yeah. You guys talk about passive income. It was a big theme a few years ago. And I had many very smart people on this podcast who think actually they don't like the yields in crypto.

1:09:23They say yield or passive income in crypto just isn't worth the risk, especially when the yearly returns are already so big on capital gains. And the risk of the source of the yield is mostly unknown. True. Is this fair argument? I mean, look, it depends. If you're in stable coins, then what's the return on your stable coins, right? And if you don't believe you don't need stable coins in your portfolio, then you don't trade the market. And then you just buy and you sell it forever. But then what's your core satellite? We talked about that before. So if you have a real portfolio, you would do core.

1:10:05You would put maybe, say, based on your risk, 50%, 30%. 30 % you would put into satellite, 20 % you put in cash, right? Or maybe 60, 20, and 20, right? So what are you going to do now with this 20 %? Just going to leave in the cash? That's what I do, actually. Because I got so traumatized by yield a few years ago, I'm like, I don't want to lose my cash. I understand it. I think now we're in a new market that's about to start. And DeFi is going to be exciting. It has already been a suite. There was a lot of opportunities there. Hyper Liquid, there was a great amount there. So there's already like few ecosystem, Barron right now has some cool stuff.

1:10:42So you have different DeFi protocols that are doing some great stuff. Then, well, yeah, you have double digits. So is there a risk? Yeah, these are triple junk box. You know, there's worse than junk box. So in some way you have to understand there's a risk behind it. If you diversify this risk and you make it well in a product like we used to do with a smart yield, then that becomes very interesting. operational risk all that if you don't have millions don't do it by yourself that's my point i think that's the risk is too high if you have the millions do it yourself but it's true it's like you have 10k and you're just going looping and all these different platforms and all of that it's still very difficult to figure out where's the best operation wise takes a lot of time change you have to change all the time then there's the risk that goes with it.

1:11:31It is a little bit crazy, but is it worth it? If you don't make those money to work, how are these platforms going to get the USDC or the USDT? And how is DeFi going to work? And if DeFi today is the best application we have on crypto, and we don't do that, then why are we in crypto again? Right? So that's my point. You have to fulfill the devil. Does it me, make me happy as the chairman of Swiss board to do these things? No, I'm shit in our pants, man. It's fucking a horrible job, you know, to be there because you know, there is risks in every protocol. Euler, Euler, Euler is in English?

1:12:20Euler, Euler, remember that one? One of the biggest protocol, the safest one. Yeah, okay. Euler, how do you say English? E-U-L-E-R. I'm not the one who you should ask how to pronounce words in English. Euler. Some people comment on the comments sometimes. They say, that was an amazing podcast. I just wish Kevin spoke English, right? Oh, motherfuckers. Actually, that kind of comments make me laugh a lot. Yeah, of course. I like the people who are like making fun of me. my point is that these guys were the safest protocol ever right and what happened well they lost all the money right and and it was a mega hack right yeah like 100 million dollars or like a lot of money no much less more okay okay okay yeah no it was a bad one yeah i was really good but uh we got back i mean the money got back and all that's at the end it was cool but the the uh who knows what happened were you guys exposed yeah of course it was during our series day during our crowdfunding it's like oh we're raising you know where the money is going you know it's like where's that and then and you're you know you're ready it was early morning was the mountains i remember and uh monday morning 8 30 and i was like yeah yeah then nicolas like uh we guys have to go after cto nicolas yeah i have to go as a go to go to go and uh and then other people start talking then they're like oh saris you have to come into uh war room like oh shish uh linear war room and they're like okay we could get some back money because the protocol is just like kick back whatever you can and then we got back but there was there was this thing happening right and at the end it was only seven i mean it was seven but initially it was more but then we're able to get back some money seven million yeah but that's a lot of money when you're raising 20 million, right?

1:14:17So, I mean, then, you know, then people understand there's risk behind it. Did you communicate that to people? Like how do you manage the, on the customer side, like the PR? We managed that we would have enough assets to reimburse the 7 million and we continued essentially. Yeah. So we did the buy bit thing in a very easy way. Yeah. My God, man. And again, you know, hats off to Ben, man. The podcast was great, but what he did that weekend was... It was insane. Yeah, it was insane. And the way he handled with the humor and everything, like saying that, yeah, don't stress out. Only my wife makes me stress out.

1:14:53It was crazy, man. I mean, there was no printing money like crazy. Yeah. But it's crazy. But yeah, so those moments, you really think about it. So from that, we said, okay, no more DeFi, yield farming was a huge risk. We would only go into staking, liquid staking, restaking. and those ones very understandable easy to explain and the risk is quite limited usually then we went more to Morpho different things loans but you know over collateralized loans and that are separated you know it's not like Aave which is all commingled the risk together and Morpho you have dedicated vaults that are only for you Camino as well and things like that so then you you try to flirt around and understand how the complexity of of your risk is created and how the risk is offered in these different platforms that are better than ever, right?

1:15:45And then what is the next one? Then you take more risk, but people have just asked to understand it. Who take the responsibility actually on the risk? Do you get risk? Well, now it's very easy. It's like, you want to do the Marfo Vault? Okay, this is from low to high risk and people take the risk 100%. But can they read something that explains them in an easier fashion? Hey, what the fuck is that? And what are the changes of this failing, right? I don't know, 10%, 50%, No, that you don't know. What's a high risk, for example? Not in terms of yields, in terms of like... So low risk usually is staking, right?

1:16:18Liquid staking as well. Medium risk, this is the one that's more difficult. It usually means you're only with one counterparty, that this counterparty has been battle-tested, audited multiple times by credible sources and by our team, and it's constantly monitoring. We're monitoring these audits and whatsoever. And that's the underlying that you're depositing is probably not a high risk either. It doesn't have any other stable coins that are a bit exotic whatsoever. And in this case, it could be middle risk. Now, when you're going for higher risk, it's usually looping using different protocols, maybe not only segregated within one, it could be commingled like Aave, it could be a higher risk, for example.

1:16:59And it doesn't mean the higher risk it has, the higher risk has more higher risk. It doesn't mean it's gonna default whatsoever. It's just that it's a higher risk. but the yield is higher too. And I think so the users at SwissBorg as we're in wealth management, they understand at the end, not everyone, but I think a strong portion of people, we try to really understand what the risk is, right? Even if we had USD, we showed it, it was a huge risk. We told a week before, this is the scenario that we believe is going to happen. This thing is going to zero. 80 % of the USD was then exchanged into USDC.

1:17:34Well, 20%, they lost it, right? But we always been extremely careful with that. And you have all the risk explanations that are very clear in every strategy. But now we're thinking about bringing back the smart world. We have commingled a lot of different strategies within that. And this could be coactively managed on the behalf of people. So go back to the sources of what grew us immensely into DeFi. But it's true, shit happens. And people should be aware of it. and shit will happen again. There'll be more hacks and more whatever. More blowups. Blowups. More money lost. Yeah, for sure. Then you limit as well the amount of funds that people could put based on their wealth as well.

1:18:21And that's why as well it's very important to know who you are, how much wealth you have, how much you have in your wallets, and how much you want to contribute within the platform of SwissBork and that as well. So you have different ways to do it. But to be honest, going to yield and doing a 30%, 20 % yield or going into Fartcoin, where's the biggest risk?

1:18:44What's the deal with Fartcoin? What's your love story or your hate story with Fartcoin? I don't know. As a guy denominating your portfolio in Sol. Yeah, I mean, look, memes are great. I mean, memes did a great thing of being able to bring community to build. then they bring this ICO hype back, which was every community driven. But if the community does, if the devs don't have any cash for a roadmap, how feasible is this going to, I mean, how sustainable is this project going to be? Do you hold any Fartcoin? I don't think so. No, I don't know. Do you? I own a lot, actually. And I'm not saying it's a bad project, by the way, right?

1:19:29And just saying is, is there a huge sustainability behind not only Fartcore, but all these meme tokens, right? Some of them like, this is a very different one. These guys have real company behind it. They have IP, they have roadmap, they have huge issues. It's very different. My two coins are actually Fartcore and Pengu. But Pengu I consider more as a culture coin than an actual meme coin, right? It's less like, ah, this is so funny and stupid. That's kind of meme coins, right? This one is more like, oh, this one is cute. It's cool. Oh, there is an actual, as you said, business behind it. There's a community, there's all these NFTs, there's toys, there's plushies, there's toys there.

1:20:11There's a super smart guy at the top. It's fun, but it's lovable. Yeah. A lot of these meme coins are just funny and incredible and this is very different. And then... Do you own any Pengu? Yes, I do. Yeah. I got airdropped and then I had a small amount, but Anthony, I know you pushed a lot to Anthony and he pushed it to me pretty much to you. Yeah, he bought a bunch of Pudgy Penguins actually, I think pretty early with the... Yeah, I did. He got massive... He has more Pudgy Penguins than me, actually, I think. And he was like, with the penguin airdrop, he was like, man, this is beautiful. But yeah, I did, yeah, I did some.

1:20:47And you have, I mean, yeah. It's a great community. And again, the guys have, with the abstract and everything, it's a huge mission. Yeah, for sure. For sure. and we're here to cheer them up obviously you said currently crypto is a gift but it won't stay a gift forever i'm being a bit critical here i've heard this story many times over the last seven years so much so that i'm starting to believe that someone is trying to sell me something why is crypto such a gift despite still too many people thinking it's a scam sold by dream sellers yeah i mean i i can understand the the why people think it'd be a nightmare because there are so many night i mean there's so many shitty stories uh and yeah there's a lot of dickheads you know that's uh that's the real truth uh but there's i mean there's a lot but in proportion there's probably a small amount just this anonymous thing crazed this weird shit where people like become like really bad and with money people get really weird it's a weird thing um but why is it a gift now that that's the the most interesting part is is we got fucked and enslaved by web one and web two to just give our souls to to these big companies i'm pretty sure that our children and grandchildren are going to say like oh you know that uh yeah kevin your your grandfather he had a podcast hey so on this and uh yeah yeah was youtube giving a lot of money no i think so giving like two percent max for nothing from the views oh that was the slavery back in 20 2025 and youtube are the coolest people by the way i think we get the number is exactly i'm not sure but like about maybe 500 bucks for like a hundred thousand views right that's even weird why do you guess in the real numbers that's why i don't even that's why i don't even uh accelerate the ads That's why I love OnlyFans.

1:22:46I'm not a user, but I love the thing is they have a clear, it's 70-30, right? I don't know the numbers. 70-30 or two-third, one-third, something like that. The thing is, at least you know exactly, right? It's very easy. Subscription, creating is normal, and that's a protocol, right? I think so that's the truth is that Web3 will finally be the one where the Uber driver could be, The first Uber driver, the first guy of Airbnb could be a validator of this node and become a huge guy on it. And not just a slave, which is 99 % of Uber drivers, of people that do YouTube videos, and of people that go on X today.

1:23:28We gain traction, visibility, and we grow our businesses through these channels. but at the end we're enslaved into these video games or into these social media and all these different platforms. So I strongly believe Web3 is the one that you could be connected, just do your thing. We have like few people at SwissBorg, the only thing they do, it's like YouTube channels. Shout out to Juju, which is one of our big, big, big ambassadors. The only thing he does, he doesn't work. He comments these videos on SwissBorg, all of that, and he grows the network. You know, there's some affiliation, obviously, with that, that maybe helps him.

1:24:05But long story short, he's just living his dream thanks to the fact that he wants to grow the network. I think that's a really cool thing. You could be passionate, but you could be a big contributor of the network and get fairly rewarded. And this meritocracy that I think we are building in crypto is much more legitimate than what we've seen in the past. And it's just borderless, transparent, whatever color, whatever country. anyone could almost participate in most activities, which is really cool. And even more today with the US now, which was the weird country where everything was, you know, illegal and all that, and now they're gonna come in.

1:24:44Looks like Russia's figuring it out, so maybe they will be able, which was the other big thing in 2017, people don't realize that even after, Russia has been a huge contributor to crypto in a good way, you know, through Telegram, through all the different projects that came out of there. And China too, right? It was not only mine, there was a great project coming out of China that went to Singapore whatsoever. But now if you see all these countries opening, then you're going to really see a massive new economy going through it. And that's a huge, huge, not only about investing in it, it's using crypto, which is for me that the best part and voting on Indus, DAOs and all that, which is really the stronger purpose, right?

1:25:29You come in for the money, You use in the product and then you start voting on how to democratically grow the ecosystem. Yeah, some of the guys pushing a lot in that, Jupiter. Yeah. They're getting... Yeah, awesome, yeah. They're really, I mean, Meow is a... I mean, I love Meow. I love Jupiter. They're one of the big guys who are like, actually, Meow helped me think much bigger for this podcast. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he's the guy who told me like, think bigger, think bigger. Like, so massive difference actually. And big kudos to him. But what they're doing with Jupiter now is really next level because they're taking this route of like becoming the biggest DAO in the world.

1:26:07But they're taking so much shit for it, right? Because the moment you're being transparent. 50 % of their cash now is going to buy back their token. I think it's like that. Or going to the treasury that will manage the DAOs. I don't know the exact numbers, but like there is a few stories where they were very transparent on how much they're paying their devs and how much of the token is going to go for the next couple of years. and they got completely bashed and trashed online because these are crazy amounts, et cetera, when they're really trying to push for crypto ethos, saturization, long-term thinking, DAOs, reading the community vote and all that stuff, right?

1:26:44Which were the biggest teams in 2017, 2018, which were a bit lost with the VC game in the last cycle. But these are the game changers of the world, no doubt. Yeah. There's no doubt about that. Because at the end, if you part of something that's bigger, you work for that thing that is bigger, and you get fucking rich and you enjoy what you're doing. I mean, you leave, right? The stickiness is there forever. It's as easy as that, you know? There's no reason. Like there's a reason for me to move from X. Is this if there's a new another platform? I don't own any shares of X. I don't care about shares.

1:27:18I don't care about X. I care about my followers there, that's true. But do I really care about X? No, I don't give a shit. You're the proud co-founder and CEO of SwissBorg. What is SwissBorg if you had to explain to your mom? To my mom, yeah, it's like what a private bank would offer to the high net worth and we offer it to Mr. Everyone. So how to be able to create a platform that helps you to manage your wealth in the best way possible, in the most secure way, and to do it via a community that really wants to encourage you to become the best version of yourself. I think that's what we are today.

1:28:00You told me the other day when we talked that SwissBorg is a solution to the problems that you and Antoni, your co-founder, were facing and then solved for yourselves when you were entering crypto and decided to offer to the world through a super easy to use app to simplify how to get financially free in the most convenient way, right? Yeah. That sounds amazing. What's one thing that is still a big problem at Swiss work today? It's a good question. I think we're not in most countries that we should be in, to be honest. That's really it. We're really, you know, why? We got to be a little bit pussies, to be honest.

1:28:46It's probably the real answer.

1:28:50It's weird, but the truth. I think so like in Europe, we were regulated in Estonia and regulated in France, right? So, and we had this thing with UK and we just did countries where we're very regulated. Most crypto players, they don't give a shit about regulation. Yeah, sure, here. And then even if they do, they did it in a way that they went really rapidly and then say, oh, reverse solicitation. We didn't do that. We were quite a Swiss on that. Very Swiss. Yeah. Not for the ICO though, I still went bazooka, but the aftermath was that. And so I think, so yeah, I should have had a Mew Mew talk to me and say go bigger back then.

1:29:30Thing bigger. Thing bigger. And then the second part is like these other guys, like if you would just do like decentralized applications so much easier, like us being essential, even if we, you know, we talk about it after, but talking about how we are essentialized and decentralized, we really have a huge amount of people that have to go from operations, regulation, compliance, onboarding, all of these things that you don't give a shit when you're in DeFi, right? You just have, you know, 20 good des and five marketers and that's it pretty much. But you don't onboard the masses when you do that.

1:30:05But that was the same thing, the mission, yeah. And I think that's why today I'm so excited is that we're one of the only meta exchange that uses crypto and blockchain for trading, right? And I think this is something that we've really embraced is how do you get to create your wealth by using and investing in crypto in the best way possible? And you still need centralization in that part. Why is a meta exchange? Great question. So I did a video some years ago, which was, I feel the urge to merge the off-chain world and the on-chain world. That was the thing, right? And that's exactly what the mix is, is how you aggregate foreign exchange to compete on the FX side.

1:30:52You aggregate all the best Xs that we have today. And then you, as well, aggregate all the DEXs on different chains together. and how are you able to exchange your Swiss francs, your GBP, whatever local currency, Singaporean dollar, to your favorite token by finding the best price by doing arbitrage between sexes and dexes. And that's really, and you could do cross-chain, you could do whatever you want, and within one click you get to it. So that's really what we've built at Swissport, which I think is extremely different from any player, essentially. So it's like if you take, yeah, sexes together, then you put one inch, one side, the other side, you put these wonderful Jupyter guys, and then all that together, you mix it into one half, pretty much.

1:31:47But we aggregated the indexes ourselves, and we do multiple chains as we speak, yeah. Why should I use SwissBorg when there are so many alternatives, many of which are much cheaper? It's a very good question. So we're actually probably cheaper than most people, but people don't see it is that we, first thing is you have to compare not fees. You have to find the end price because every exchange will say like, oh, this is, we take, you know, 10 basis point commission, but then it take like, I don't know. I'll talk about again, so let's take it out of it. One of the biggest sex in the world takes 4 % spread on their users.

1:32:31That's huge amount. So you have to talk, that's the total total fee that people pay. You mean fees on the transaction and then on the exchange rate, I guess. Right? No. So essentially you're, you see Bitcoin at a hundred K and then you're going to buy it and you're going to buy it 104K. That's pretty much what you're doing. That's exactly what some sex do right now for the retail levels, not for like if you're a trader pro or whatever and you're in the high tiers whatsoever, but that happens already. So what you want to compare is the end price versus the end price. As I said, you're able to depose your local currency within Swiss port.

1:33:08You could trade directly CHF to Bingu, for example, and how that done, it will go through different effects and then eventually get to one sex or on abstract, we don't have them. So it's on sexes only probably for Vinko. So you would do just one trade instead of doing five trades, right? That's the first or three trades or whatever that you want to do, like Swiss francs to dollars, dollars to whatever you need to do. The second part is that as we always look for the best price in different exchanges, we do really arbitrage. So what market makers do, which is really trying to exploit the market by doing arbitrage, is exactly what anyone does within the Swiss port gap.

1:33:53And markets are not efficient at all within the crypto market, especially if you talk about people on Dex's. There's a huge way to exploit these arbitrages and these inefficiencies, and this is exactly what we do at Swiss port. So to go for one trade from Swiss francs to whatever, let's talk about Fartcoin, it might, you know, or GBP, for example, it might exchange that GBP to maybe dollars. Those dollars will buy Bitcoin, then these Bitcoin will buy Solana, then the Solana will look into different indexes on Solana and start buying, for example, Fartcoin and you will get a much better price at the end.

1:34:36So that's really what people should look at is what's the end price, how much tokens you get with the crypto, the fiat that you want to invest into.

1:34:50Fartcoin is being talked about in every podcast, actually. Fartcoin, fartcoin all the time. I like it because then I can clip it and send it to the fartcoin. Like, hey, guys, I have another person to give me a fartcoin. Anyway, you have a Fartcoin also, but that is a bit more useful than the actual Fartcoin. It's called Borg, right?

1:35:16What's your plan with your Borg token to not only stay relevant, but to grow over time? Yeah, that's a great question. Since day one, we've figured out, like, after three months, how to do referendums, right? And that was in 2018. and March 2018, we did a referral of 15 ,000 people on chain voting, which they minted another token and sent the token. It was very difficult back in the day, right? So we've always been really excited about how to create real use cases to have fundamental value into our token, which is not necessarily what most crypto people do, right? People just say, like, it's a great project.

1:35:51This is my token. What is it going to do? Oh, we'll figure it out. So we bring a lot of things internally, right? And one of the big things that we bought internally first was becoming premium in the app. You have different premium tiers. Basically, on the amount of tokens that you stake within the app, you're able to do what? Get better fees and get better yield, right? Then we started adding having to get better experience. So we have all these different products that are, some of them are very difficult to get. And the offer is always much less than what the demand is. So you get better access and get more and more.

1:36:27and voting power and things like that get to have a strong, great amount of value within the Swiss Borg network. And that's really what the token has been doing, which is in the app, is governance, perks, experience. This is really the three things, how you really get to do that in a better way. We have voting that happens every month. Our last voting was really cool, was about creating a bundle So at SwissBorg, you know, you deposit in local currency. Number two, you can exchange at the best rate. Number three layer that we built was how to invest into baskets or bundles of token. Now they voted on the fact that they're able to create their own bundles and co-manage the bundles together where they're gonna have incentives to share essentially the rewards together and get a yield based on the money that they make by co-managing these bundles.

1:37:30So you really have always a lot of initiatives that people are able to bring with the SwissBard token, again, which is paying less fees, getting better yields, creating better experience within the app, and at the end, being able to vote on initiatives that really are important for people. And I think that's very important because it goes back to what I said in crypto. You come in for the money, you enjoy the products, and you use the products, but then you decide the future with governance. And it's always those three ways that you have to think about it. Come in for the money, you enjoy the product, and then you contribute in the democracy of the future of the network.

1:38:12With that being said, that's not enough for this cycle. I think that, you know, in the last cycle, we were one of the top performing tokens. We did great, got the 1.76 billion market cap. but you see in the race today that there's still a lot of sex tokens or whatever but we've always been in this mix which is the best of two worlds and the biggest contribution recently has been as well on chain regarding Borgpad which is a great type of launchpad that you could do and way to list tokens within the Swiss Borg app again a voting mechanism that lists any token in the fairest way possible to bring a lot of value for people that are out of the app within the app too So a lot of mechanisms that could help the Borg on chain.

1:38:56So we put it on Solana, we might put it on other chains. Whenever we list tokens on Borgpad, we listed versus the Borg token. So that brings a lot of supply, I mean, trading activity and buy pressure on the Borg token. There's always the buyback and burns and things like that as well that happen on chain. So we really try more and more to bring on chain activity because you have to. If there's only, you know, I... The market, the time is much bigger, right? Than just like SwissBorg, SwissBorg. 100%. When you go on chain, like you have the entire world as potential customers. I want to know more about obviously you worked on this opportunity to bring retail investors the opportunity to invest in early projects.

1:39:45Yes. That's the fourth layer. You're doing this through a platform called Borgpad. Yes, that's correct. What is Borgpad if you had to explain it to your wife? Sorry, that was the fifth layer. The fourth layer was the yield. We talked about it before. The fifth layer, which is Borgpad, is really try to get to do what we did eight years ago. So eight years ago, when did ICO and created all this community and being able to deliver our promises is when 99 % of all projects have failed to. and I'm not pointing on the 99 % it's fucking difficult man it's just so difficult and especially back in the days today is much easier than now it's like building a website today is much easier than 20 years ago right and this was 8 years ago times 7 56 years ago so it's even longer the work path that's it it's as easy as that it's how you get to create best projects help them to create the best ethics and products that will enable them to raise money, to be able to list them Swiss Borg app, but more importantly, able to have a roadmap that's consistent and be able to really unveil that roadmap in the best way possible.

1:41:01So it started by XBorg, which is our gaming guild.

1:41:09A lot of people want to be a CEO of a company of 2 ,000 people. That's my nightmare. I don't want that. Of course. Of course you don't want that. I don't think, I don't know why people like that. I don't know. It's weird. But as a founder, I don't think any founder wants that. That doesn't make sense. If then you're hired for that mission, you're probably very good at it. It makes sense. So what we've seen is that we always said, okay, whenever we see huge opportunities in the market and more importantly, huge opportunity within the teams, we look like, okay, dude, you look like you're going to do very well by yourself.

1:41:43the guy's like he thinks i'm like yeah you can do great by yourself you have everything and we're going to help you to build your team uh with a great mission these are the different missions that we believe are cool is there any of them that would fit your roadmap in your life in your purpose in life and if it does click we're like okay now we're gonna help you as much and this is where it started with xpork and a lot of different initiatives some that work very well some that are struggling a bit as we speak, but still that drive that you really want to create value for your community. And that's where Borgpad really started.

1:42:19In entrepreneurship, there is always the theory, which is beautiful. And then there's the reality, which is often less beautiful. Yeah. What's the biggest problem with Borgpad so far?

1:42:34The truth is that we should have just the memes. I said in the beginning of the year, and I'm joking with it. I had a presentation, and you know, it just fucking latched memes. It didn't exist, pump.fum. It didn't exist. I said, do the pump.fum. Liquidity bootstrapping memes. That was the end of 23. I've been great. Borg versus all these fucking shit tokens. You had locked like 30 % of the supply. We're now at 10 million market cap. It would have been amazing. I think the, the, the, it was very swissport yeah of course it was very like oh we need fundamental i mean you saw it look you talked many times it's all we need this very fundamental projects are going to change the era of ever and and and i but that's a beautiful mission yeah i super buy it that's what you guys that's the ethos and values you guys build your business but at sometimes you play tactical and and you play dirty, it doesn't fucking give a shit.

1:43:35Cause my, the idea was not to create the best thing out of it. It's just to pump board token. That was my initial thing. And then the mission behind it, you never know. You'd be eventually some memes would make something cool out of it. Right? We have NoMu now that's coming out. That's the meme with, I mean, very inspired by these beautiful people, right? With IP and all of that. I don't know. I think second cup, you heard about NoMu or not? No. Spin off of Swiss Borg, people from Borgpat. Super cool and how you, I shouldn't pitch it that well, but essentially, Pengu has a fish. And this fish was not ate by one of this Pengu Pengu and this type of thing.

1:44:17And now this fish is living his own life and is a rebellious, beautiful golden fish. And this fish is really connected to real sushi stores where people actually pay the IP of Nomu. Actually, I know now because I saw Antoine talking about it. Yeah. The sushi thing. Yeah. And you're connecting real world assets, so real sushi, and we're opening one here in Lausanne very soon and all that. It's linked to real world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The sushi shop. I have a hundred shops. It's a big chain. So they're going to be buyback and all that. I don't want to pitch the whole thing. It's probably going to be poorly done.

1:44:51But my point is that you could graduate to these guys, which is a culture meme or whatever you want to call it. So that was the issue and it was not permissionless. We wanted to gate it for the Swissberg community, which I understand, but we should have... Understand. Just not permissionless. Let it do whatever they want in the easier way, because Web3 at the end, people just want permissionless. They don't want to ask permission for anything. Absolutely. but those things you learn i mean how many times you need to really you know go back to the white board to forever shit happen right here exactly never ending it's never ending so it's a never ending pain entrepreneurship yeah yeah if you like this game you need to fucking be massive shift yeah tell me about this match portfolio product yeah so that's the seventh layer we didn't talk The first layer is you deposit within your own bank account, with your own name, with your own local account.

1:46:00Second, you do best exchange to the max. Third is you yield with different DeFi protocols or with different risks. Fourth is about baskets and bundles that you invest in easily. You co-manage them now. Fifth is about the launchpad and BorgFad. Six tokenization that we haven't done, but we jumped to seven. But the seven layer, those were the seven layers that we wrote in the white paper in 2017. And we talked about it multiple times. And it's people that don't want to get their hands burned or just don't want to do the strong work for now. So it's like instead of going into, how do you call it, a gym and working out and have an instructor and all that, you're just gonna go to uh how do you say it a place where they're gonna put all these electrodes and and make you beautiful muscles without too much work they do it for you they do it do these places work actually the electrodes like people get their abs and their muscles i'm sure no and look at this i don't know i always wonder do you think these movie actors they don't they work out like crazy probably take some stuff also on the other stuff but i'm not sure like the just taking stuff and not working out is gonna...

1:47:16Sustainable now. It's gonna help. But Brazil didn't reject all these fake muscles, right? I don't know. That's another thing, but I don't think you can take them out that easy, right? It's actually a surgery, right? Yeah, it's a process. Aesthetical surgery. It's horrible, yeah. Plastic surgery. But look, let's face it. Some people don't have the time and it's still a very good hook for people to... I think... I still think that what you want is to find a destination and autopilot... autopilot of a Tesla, like my car, right? You still have to look at things in crypto. But some people don't give a shit at all and it's fine.

1:47:51And just want their hands off and we're able to invest into different risk managed profiles essentially. And based on that, we have our, you know, proprietary system that trades the markets. It was risk on risk off based on different, you know, AI and technical analysis and things like that. Get and manage your portfolio in a better way where you are not gonna be performing as well as the market and the ups in the bull cycle, but you're going to be able to protect the downside in a very good way. And like that, you will enjoy the ride of crypto without getting the ping of crypto. And hopefully we'll be outperforming, you know, on the long run, you know, the top five to the cryptos is sort of that way.

1:48:34But then, you know, probably sometimes we will, sometimes we won't. But at least it's a good way to not like go to those minus 50, 60 % where you're like, you just say, okay, it's too much for me. Question your life. Yeah. Like how idiot was I to just do that? And I think that's going to be a big, big thing, especially for high net worth individuals. For as well, elder people, because people don't realize that SwissBorn, we have a lot of elder people. A huge amount of people are actually in over 50 years old within SwissBorn Network. and some of them, you know, if you have a private bank or even if you haven't invested all your life, at 70 years old, are you really going to get really into crypto?

1:49:16Maybe yes, maybe not. But if you don't, we still want to make sure we have a solution for yourself and for making sure that your kids will retire, you know, they'll inherit a great thing or you'll retire in a great way, yeah. I'm the founder of Hyperliquid, Jeff, on this podcast a few months back. Yeah. You said Hyperliquid is changing the game in crypto for the first time in two years. Yeah. Can you explain what you mean exactly on the philosophical aspect of crypto as a founder who has been driven by the right crypto ethos for almost eight years now? Yeah, you're right. I mean, look, Stani from Avid did the right move with loans.

1:49:57You know, people are going to hate me, but Uniswap didn't do the right move. Some other people did it before, which called Bancor, but no one talks about them. They made the right move. I think Hyperliquid's the next move that made this one. I didn't see 90 people do the right move as Hyperliquid did. So for me, it's the third best protocol that has existed in DeFi for now, which makes a lot for us. And it's sad that I didn't even get the air drop. You mean third best as the third kind of time that there is something really game changing? Yeah. Obviously, they didn't invent Burps on Chain, but they did this version, which was a better thing, just the UX, everything.

1:50:39I remember it was June or July 2023, I think so, when Anthony was showing. And yeah, I did then on the wallet. It's just a wallet I threw away. So that wallet, I don't use it anymore, so I couldn't get the IR drop on that wallet, fortunately. So I just sell that app. that app but the the the thing is that the whole market making the lp that they put together is just the best way to take away a lot of market makers or to resemble bring back market makers but more in a let's say a smarter way and it's it's the biggest it's the biggest actor that that took every sex in every way in the scariest way possible and all this vendetta of all these sexes that try to fuck up with them with different liquidity pools, all these different shit that happened on these sexes recently shows how powerful this thing is.

1:51:38I mean, did they make it all right? No, of course not. They're learning like everyone. But how it's built, I think so, it's very different. The day when, I forgot which token was, the people that play with the margin were able to almost penalize the whole thing and then they had to react and delift. I think that's called the jelly token. The jelly token. Yeah, the whole jelly jelly. That same day, we tried to buy the auction to get listed on it to show that SwissBorg was really a huge fan of what they're doing. And what is even more exciting is we got listed, I think. We got the spot the day after.

1:52:18We bought the spot, I think, so for 55K. And the most interesting part here is what I would love is these guys to replace the whole sex token, the whole sex on, sorry, on spot. Because that for me is the most exciting part. Yeah, you like Jeff and Appleiquid as a founder, right? For the ethos, but you like Appleiquid also a lot for a company like SwissBorg on the business side. 100%. Why exactly? 15 % of all trades on SwissBorg now are only through DEXs, right? But that still means that 85 % are on DEXs, on average. As SwissBorg is growing, we're adding more chains. We started with Solana. Why?

1:53:04It's only possible on Solana with order books in the beginning. The central limited order books that were built on Solana were well done for our architecture of our aggregation of our management system called Smart Engine. The second chain for a very interesting reno is Avalanche. So we now aggregated all the decks in Avalanche because they're very well done. The third one, and we believe a lot in the Avalanche as well ecosystem, don't get me wrong. These guys have been doing a lot of great things for many years in the good way. The third one was Barachain because Barachain is cool. But as well, because it was very low, it was very easy for us to do it.

1:53:48It took us much less time than we thought. So, like, it could be a good one. When Hyperliquid is going to create more liquidity and more transaction on chain than ever, it's going to be just so much more beautiful. Because how do you get listed on Hyperliquid or on DEXs? Whether it's free or it's an auction mechanism that's already fully done and contributed by a DAO, right? Where the hype token buys back the token. You have all that. But when you trade on Binance, you get listed on Binance. How does that happen? You have like these dirty shake hands that happen, right? And most of the other sexes, American sexes are more cleaner, but they still have all this political agenda that goes to it.

1:54:26Like, oh, me, I'm USDT. Oh, me, I'm USDC, right? You have all these battles that are completely political driven. And they're not driven by the community. And very often the community doesn't get the revenues out of these companies. Or not shareholders have no word to say. here on Hyperliquid is very different, right? And is there some centralization in Hyperliquid? Of course there is. Like in every adapter centralization, right? And I believe that more we put on chain as well, the more we will be able to show that blockchain is irreplaceable. And for us, for due diligence, auditing, everything, it just gets much more better.

1:55:05Everything should be on chain. Sexit should die by 2030. We have five years to kill Sexit. and to create front ends like SwissBorg that aggregates different DEXs and that makes the experience the best possible, right? That's really what everyone should be concentrating. I think that, you know, more and more people realize that DEXs is where we're heading. And that's where you get, because when we trade on Solana, where we're going to be trading on Hype, you're not going to buy the fucking Hype on SX that has no thing. No, you're buying on Hype blockchain. We're now aggregating Hyperliquid as a chain and you'll be able to trade Hype token and probably others through Hype's blockchain and Hype Dex, which is really cool.

1:55:49Hyperliquid Dex, right? So that shows, again, that we're using blockchain, but you're using the ecosystem in the best way possible. We're really trying to bring, create value, bring TVL, help projects. And of course, Borgpad is another way that we could source new projects through that and have that real virtuous cycle, which is not about investing. It's now about using blockchain. And very soon about voting on with HIFE, like what are the great things to do and all of that, right? You need that. Investing is done. Like buy an ETF. You don't need sexes anymore. Now we have to need to use blockchain.

1:56:31and the third is you need to vote on blockchain, right? That's the most important. Yeah. I had big discussions with Gavin Wood the other day about that. Governance, governance, governance. Yeah, they're digging to that with Polkadot, obviously. And there's a king of, I mean, he lost a lot of money, right? So on, shoot, what's it called? The biggest hack in 2016, in 2015. when Ethereum split. It was called the DAO hack, yeah. The DAO hack, so I think since then he's been very focused on how governance systems should be working very well, yeah. You've been at the SwissBorg adventure, right, for almost eight years now?

1:57:16You're still here with the same business and the same token. Not many people, we talked about that before, Not many people in crypto think that way, right? Yeah. What makes you stay? I said the millionaire, the real definition is helping a million people. I'm very far from that. And I have a lot of, there's a lot of frustrations as founders. I think so, especially in crypto, you know, RIC or token should have been shares in 2017, you know? So we haven't even tokenized for support yet, right? So eight years later, it really grows. I mean, maybe it will change now with regulation, but we'll see.

1:57:59But the thing is, yeah, you get frustrated. You get to meet a lot of people. You hire a lot of people. You have to fire some amount of people, which is always sad. It's very difficult to be a founder. You have to wake up every day and figure out how you have to bring hope again. and that hope has to some way be able to be quantifiable in numbers. But the great thing is that the only mission I have is to serve the community. I don't have any investor. I don't have to talk. I don't have to do any bullshit reports for VCs or whatever. I don't need to do anything. I just do whatever I feel is the best with, of course, the co-founders, co-founding team and the board of SwissBorg, which is all SwissBorg people.

1:58:44And we have one big goal is financial freedom for that million people. We have one goal, which is to make the Borg the masterpiece in the heart of our ecosystem. So we really are anchored in that position. And things don't go as always you plan, but at least you look yourself in the mirror and you have those police officers, those bankers, doctors. doctors, one of our doctors, a shareholder of, of, of Swiss Borg. I didn't even know. And he's like, you know, at the hospital I'm talking to me, it's like, he sees the thing. He's like Swiss Borg. Like he's like, Fasel Cyrus series. Hey, I'm like, no way, man.

1:59:23He's like operating on myself. And they're like, like, dude, I've like so much confidence. This operation is going to go well. Right. And you have these electricity thing and there's so much, you know, so much different crazy stories. I could tell you. How did you get with the pressure that come with that? All these hopes of all these people. Oh, yeah, that sucks, yeah. I mean, in some way. I mean, you can't fail. Especially Swiss culture, you know how we are. We're not American culture. It's the opposite. You fail, you're dead. But look. You sleep at night. I mean, right now the goosebumps talking about it, but the thing is, I never had an easy life, man.

1:59:59I never enjoyed the easy life. Just always like to really hardly get into hard shit. So that was my, I grew up in a way where we lost everything. You know, we lived, lived only with my mom. We, we moved from countries, learned different languages, fought a lot, got my ass kicked many times, got into different sports, breakdance, made money, just traveling Europe with a hat and breakdancing in the streets. That's, and breakdance is really rough. It's a rough sport, especially back in the day. There's no like TikTok where the guy's like, oh, go to the gym and you know, no, it's like Like just, there's no, just like one videotape and then you're like, okay, well, there's no core, just learn and you break your neck on doing shit.

2:00:44Then, you know, we talked about I miss martial arts, all these, you know, all these things that create the culture of, of delivering shit. And that when you're faced, you know, what Ben said very clearly is that when you're facing a fucking fire, you, you're in yourself. there is a small excitement of joy yeah you have gabriel in right you're like holy shit now i'm the boss and i have to show that i'm the boss right that i'm gonna fix this shit you look at your dragon ball z manga they're like

2:01:22and you fuck you fuck the person the problem in front of you you fuck it up you know that's it there's no choice right you just take it and you break into pieces and then you say look at that motherfucker. So that was going to break it. Yeah. And, uh, and yeah, it, it, it, it, it's a weird one. Then is how long can you do it in the fishing way? That's the big question of many entrepreneurs that I have no clue. How long do you think you can? Yeah. You could resist to be the, because if I tomorrow find a better CEO than myself, will I recognize him first? What's a better CEO than you? I have a lot of flaws, so I can tell you what I would do, but I'm not a KPI driven guy.

2:02:04I'm very emotionally. I'm driven by, I do understand what's the future, I think, of this planet in some ways, but then how do I articulate my vision to make this shit happen? Well, you have Anthony, like a mathematician, or you have all the other guys, Nicola, who is the architect of the thing. And you have Jeremy and other different guys, all these different guys that have so much different things. That's like, oh, no, but you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't let no, let's go this way. No, dude, you can't do that. So you have all these team players that with myself, my brother, all these people that know me so well, my best friends, that they make this beautiful octagon that we roll in different faces and people co-manage with myself all these big decisions.

2:02:52but do i have now the power to continue and be good at what i'm doing i think so uh but there's some doubt sometimes uh and and chad gbt is here to like talk about these doubts on on a weekly basis try to figure out how i get better at this shit and and if if i don't then I'll have to like look for someone for sure that needs to make this much better than I do. Have you ever thought about selling your company? Yeah, of course. I mean, we had an offer at$1 billion from Voyager in 2021 and our token was already at a billion plus though. So we were like, oh, billion. We didn't realize there was no liquidity and then there was gonna fall down.

2:03:37You did your machine scheme. Maybe in three days. But we liked the whole Voyager guys. they were great people, some of the Swiss people too, super smart American Jewish and Swiss Jewish people. So we had a very good vibe, all these guys and all that, just that we didn't have a plan for the token, like, well, you know, we're not interested. And also went bankrupt. Yeah. So I'm very happy. They were a public company that went bankrupt. Yeah, it sucks. Six billion from withdrawal from the stock markets, Toronto stock market. I think so.

2:04:14If tomorrow, you know, we have a great exit for the token holders, the Series A participants, and SwissBorg's magic still continues with another actor, yeah, I mean, you know, would that be a responsible decision? Will I bring it to all the shareholders and the community? Yes, I would, right? Because at the end...

2:05:05If it's a big win, it's a fucking big win. time it just ends up bad i don't know i mean they're a bit i don't believe that's a bad acquisition at all so it depends that's gonna be fucking awesome that's gonna be a great one it's gonna be the best acquisition like option is gonna be a real thing and it's also removing a lot of risks from the market because they're one of those uh offshore companies you mentioned before right when you said uh about blow-ups right but still the european ethos it's a bit different they're not scammers the two brothers we were the one of their biggest clients 2017 2018 So we knew the Dutch brothers.

2:05:35They were really cool guys. And the tech guys behind the Polish people, they're super clean and all that. So they had, of course, the islands and all of that for regulatory reasons, but they still had this great ethos of becoming the biggest option platform forever and sold for$3 billion to do. To Coinbase was quite cool story. You were in your early 30s? 40s sorry you're in your early 40s thank you i mean i'm in my early 30s tell me something about your life that i can take with me for the next 10 years of my life

2:06:16don't do children's too late i hear that so often from from my podcast guest actually saying do as many as possible as early as possible i don't think so many man i mean I mean, there are a lot of people on Splatine. But yeah, it's good to have kids earlier. Do you think, I mean, not really great. I have a huge amount of energy, you too, so we're at least good on that side. But with age, you have less energy, there's no doubt. The flower is not as bright. How old were you when you had your... 39. 39, okay. So... Do you wish you had a kid earlier than 39? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 30, 30... Well, I was quite stupid though, I mean, until like 33.

2:06:56I'm to that book moment where I was talking about that reverse moment. That was a bit stupid. I was just like planning the Thursday, Friday, Saturday night out. That was very important. I didn't care much too much about the rest and some sport and things like that, but I didn't really care about the rest. You know, I was like, what's the part? What is the casual cool part on Thursday? And where is the like the blackout Friday nights, right? So that's not like very sustainable, right? When you're a father, at least. so I think so that's definitely a thing I would I would have you know but then life you know brings in different directions or so ever with different people so you can it's not as easy to control right that's one thing as I said your 20 is about learning potentially who you are 30 is about developing sharpening that fucking saw and becoming like the best version of how you professionally could be and taking the biggest amount of risk right and you travel the world and all that shit so you know I don't need to take any feedback from that, but it's still really important to take a huge amount of risk because you could really do it.

2:08:01I mean, besides if you have family that need your, you know, whatever, but most of the time, I think you could take that risk. And then just to have healthy habits too. I mean, you're already sporty, so you don't need it, but you need sports. Because that grandmother who turned 70 that became like a strong Terminator in five years, I buy the story, but I still think that you need to have your discipline in your 30s because if not, that's when you start maybe going too extreme and yeah, you don't wanna lose yourself into drugs and shit like that that will lower to just eating fast food and all that shit and enjoying the small things.

2:08:49Like the best things of life are always for free. nothing that will you be able to pay will be as good as free as easy as that running swimming hiking all these things are free they're the best things meditation yeah do you want a polo and will rather rich people it's probably a cool game polo or golfing but you need the fucking golf i golf last week was a great game but dude you could hike it's much better than golfing for that That way it's completely for free. You just need nice shoes. So you have to like, especially with crypto, you're not like that, but with crypto people could like be like too Lambo and all that shit.

2:09:28I think so it's important to not get too excited about these fake tits and these fake things in life. Yeah. As they said, if you're not happy with the coffee, you won't be happy with a jet. I don't know who said that, but they said that. And I tend to agree. It's like Mark Zuckerberg saying like, it's always like, yeah, your car has to have half of horsepower than your jet. That's a common saying, no, no one fucking says that. No one has a jet. I think someone said that. Okay. But next time, before I say that, I'll go online. I'll ask GPT, hey, who said that? And I'll look less stupid. Thank you so much, Cyrus, for doing this.

2:10:10Thank you, man. That was a great conversation. And thank you for being here and for doing the right thing in our industry. and that is doing the same boring thing over and over again for more than seven years in an industry where people's attention is of the span of a goldfish. We need more Cyrus's and Anthony's, your questioner, in our industry. And more Kevin's. Entrepreneurs who think long-term and fight for the true crypto ethos. Too many people have forgotten because the temptation to do the wrong thing and make money quickly is so strong. Probably stronger than ever before. Great show. Thank you.

2:10:50Thank you, Kevin. It was a pleasure.