E150: Meow From Jupiter: How We're Bringing Crypto To 1 Billion People

29:39Web two, that was social media, right? Web two, web three, that was like, internet money, right? I think web four would be like social money, you know, whereby everyone, where everyone in the world, right? And you know, you know how in, you know how in social, you know how in web one, people were just reading consumer content but they weren't really like doing stuff they weren't really engaged in the creation of everything right you know what i'm saying right they're just using a very superficial way right you know what one well two was really when you went crazy people really started like when the entire world started getting involved right in the creation of content on the internet that's when you've been crazy because it's actually when the role of like possibilities of engagement really skyrocketed right you know so i feel like we are well i feel like we are in a similar stage in crypto right now.

30:24We have developed the ability to create internet money. Right? By box change, right? You know? And there's actually a lot of people engaging in this stuff. But no one's really... But the number of people are actually involved in creating it. Right? Or like manifesting it. Or like governing it. Or like, you know, or even using it. It's very, very low. Extremely low. Right? So to me, very similar to during when web one when at the pivotal point right it was a point where web one became web two right that means that okay the the base technologies are all like um good enough right something and there's actually a very clear economic reason right economic reason a lot of interest into becoming like into kind of like you know being involved the creation right and manifestation of this man right i feel like we are very similar now okay we are going to enter era, right?

31:18Whereby, I really think we're into a new era whereby like the masters, right? You know, my mom, hopefully, you know, where we actually be involved in either the, either in the active, either in the active creation, governing, right? No liquidity provision or like the using, right? Of these new monies. You know, right? I really think so. Because right now, and you can also think of each way, right? It's like, Web3 so far has been mostly done on sexes. Centaurized exchanges. Yeah, which is okay. Again, but they don't really use it, right? You don't really use it in any meaningful way. You don't use it for transactions.

31:53You don't use it for sentiment deliver. You don't use it in daily life. You take zero part at all in the creation of it and governing of it. You're just consuming sometimes. But I feel like the... So I think that's actually what happened. And then when that happens, I feel like the other part of it is... The other part of the whole Web4 thing in my mind, right? It's the idea of a universe of monies. You know? Like, just imagine, right? Because the most wonderful thing about crypto, right? And DeFi is that, like, there's no barriers. You know? There's no barriers. It's like, for example, on Nasdaq or Nasdaq or a bank, it's all gated.

32:36It's all gated post-capital, right? Like Nasdaq, CME, or even the US dollar, all gated, right? But then on DeFi, it's like this amazing, like universe. Like just imagine, right? Just imagine, okay? You're just like a universe of months and they're all together. There's no barriers. Anyone can access anything. Value can flow seamlessly, everything, right? So essentially, I think our goal at Jupiter, right? Really is like threefold, right? Number one, we think of it as the three universal principles, right? Like we want to allow universal accessibility, right? We want to allow anyone in the world to really easily access, you know, this universe of monies.

33:17You know what I'm saying? Whether this is Bitcoin or US dollar or any shit coin or anything in the world. It's all going to be, it's everything. Every single thing is going to be this universe of monies, right? And second thing is that, second thing is that we call it universal creation, right? How do we allow anyone to be involved in the creation of these monies, right? It's not just, it's not that, creating money is not that simple as like pressing a button, by the way. It's the whole process, how you get stakeholders, how you build trust, how you govern it, how to put out liquidity, how you get other monies to trust you, everything.

33:46And the last university is the university exchange. We want to enable a system about like, it doesn't matter what money you have, and all money is someone else. That exchange should be, doesn't matter what chain you're on, what format it's on, the exchange should be as seamless as possible, and low friction and low cost possible. If people knew how much fees are in Forex, they'd go crazy. Oh my God, all these points are funded by really crazy as forage fees. And that they go crazy. But I think for our goal, I think we think that, so we think at Jupyter, we think that the next organization on the web or even a human or finance, is a giant, it's a web fault.

34:29And it's a giant, it's going to be giant money. And then our quest is simple. We really want to create a world by it becomes as easy, like universally accessible, universal creation and universal exchange. Yeah. So that's the thing we'll give you there. Quick one. I want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible. Thank you, Trezor. My favorite cold wallet to store my crypto and make sure I sleep well at night. If you want to order a Trezor wallet and sleep well at night too, you can use my promo code WSH10 to get a 10 % discount. Big thank you to Bitwise Asset Management for backing today's conversation.

35:06Bitwise is a crypto specialist asset manager with more than$15 billion in client assets across 30 plus crypto solutions, including ETFs, index funds, alpha strategies, staking, and more. However you like to invest in crypto, Bitwise has something for you. Thank you to our friends at SWE for supporting this show. SWE is a scalable layer one blockchain that's fast, secure, and affordable, built by previous Facebook developers, and that delivers the benefits of Web3 with the ease of Web2. Thank you to Story Protocol, the IP layer of the internet, for supporting today's conversation. Story is building an open system for creators to register, manage, and grow their IP on-chain.

35:46Whether you're building words, stories, or characters, Story Protocol gives you the tools to protect and expand your creative universe. To support this show, please check the sponsor links in the description down below. Why is Jupyter the best team? Push this web4 concept forward. you know um have you guys tried smartphones before the iphone smartphones before the iphone like a black like a blackberry or like a blackberry or like a i had a palm and there was a nokia as well yeah web os and it was like it was like it was it was there right but it was really clunky right it was really not a great right and it really took them it really took them the iphone right to really put it all together right you know like and then the the and then the reason why they could put it all together right they really had to kind of like um you know like um and and um and and i kind of call it the i kind of think about it i think defines the iphone moment you know something defines the iphone moment right to really start to penetrate the messes right you know and that's actually very interesting because if you look at how iphone did it right it's basically a full combination of things right It's like they have to get the hardware down, the operating system down, the software down, the application down, the support down, the distribution down, the brand awareness down, the retail reach down, the customer support down.

37:20You know what I'm saying? I think people don't know this, right? But then you really need the, also the internet too, the backend servers too. They're very important. The backend services that run a lot of stuff, right? Very important. Underrated. Really underrated, right? You know? Like, because people always see like software hardware and the OS and stuff, maybe. But I don't really see kind of like the giant web of shit that happens in the background, right? So it's like, and I know that stuff. So I think, so for us, I think we think of very similar, right? We think of it as like, I mean, we, I mean, I'm not that arrogant to say we will be the one, but I think the way we think about it, right?

37:50And actually, if we actually understand that as our goal, if we understand that as our goal, right? You kind of create an iPhone moment, right? You know, for DeFi, everything we do doesn't make sense. You know? like everything we do just has to make sense right you know like whether it is and I can go more on that I can go more on that later on but that really I think we are probably I would say the only team that is like really fucking focused right you know and on solving on becoming on solving this you know and I mean across the whole stack you know because you really need a very strong competency across the board you know and we are going to be I would say that we are probably the team that is like really native to DeFi and really use the focus and really driving to kind of view all the different pieces in there.

38:34Yeah. So that's what you call the iPhone strategy. How can I, I, I, I bring all this stuff together to make everything much simpler. Yeah, precisely. So I think, yeah, precisely. So I think if you look at, so, I mean, again, if you, if you see what we're doing, I mean, if you, that, that, then things make sense, right? You know, then because we, internally we have this thing called the triple S strategy, right? We call it full surface. The first is full surface, full suite, full stack. In that man's main, right? Full surface is that we're the only team that is really competent across the web, across the mobile, and across APIs.

39:15The three main ways services and products get delivered. We're the only team. There's no other team that's strong on the web, strong mobile, and strong APIs. We started our mobile thing about a year ago. and we have made enormous progress now, right? And everyone, the white consensus right now is like, you know, Jupyter Mobile is probably the best mobile app, right? You know? Yes. And then, and also very strong APIs. I think our APIs and our staff is probably the most widely integrated among the DeFi applications, right? Among everyone else. And then the second full suite, right? There's a full self-service search, right?

39:55Around, so we obviously have obviously have a really extremely comprehensive swap system, a really comprehensive ultra-terminal, ultra-lending, and ultra-screener, right? Ultra-terminal. And we also have a really, I would say probably one of the best landing platforms. We also have one of the, and we're going to do, and also definitely one of the best portfolio. Obviously we have a really strong person as well. And then, and obviously we're going to develop, and then we are developing a lot more, and we are developing a lot more core competencies, right? And infrared services, you know? For example, Jupynet is basically a really big effort, right?

40:30To solve the omni-chain problem, you know? Which requires a... Again, if you want to do a good UX on the omni-chain thing, it's ridiculously hard, right? What is the omni-chain problem? I'll cover that later, okay? But then just to finish the part earlier about the third S, I'll show you, is full stack. Again, I think we're the only team that is really competent across the whole stack. You know, whether it's come... I think as we start to develop our own VM, but I think they'll kind of have a lot of expertise then like our cross-chain expertise and also like you know we also run as I mentioned earlier we also run one of the largest validators and we also write a lot of our own software and then obviously contract side we're very strong and then on the also this data layer that drives a lot of things we're very strong as well and UI we are competent across like API design UI design and also like more design and also the higher level staff is like for example I think we are going to make a really big effort on like you know becoming really good on the softer things as well.

41:27Right, the community building, the evangelizing stuff, and also like, that was a viral stuff, marketing stuff. So I think those are things that I think we, yeah, so I think I would say quite confidently that, so that summarizes our triple S approach, right? So it's also true, it's like, okay, how do we build like the full service coverage, full services and full stack competence? because we think that will be what is needed, right? To crack, to make the user experience that we want for the masses, right? And I'll sum it up by saying something that I think one of my, what Alan Key or Steve Jobs says, it's like, if you want to build your own, if you want to build good software, you gotta build on hardware.

42:14So we kind of have that similar thinking, right? It's like, okay, if we wanna build If you want to build a really good experience, then we're going to be willing to go as low as we need to, but also as high as we need to, then in terms of delivering the brand. So if you understand this as a foundational thesis for Jupyter, then everything you do does make sense. Yeah. I just have to ask you talking about building the delivering the brand talking about web 4 what did you choose when shift happens as a media partner to push i need some flowers here let's go let's go let's go let's go let's go i'm ready for it i'm ready for it how big is ego you ready my ego is very low i learned because i got so fucked in business and in investing that i learned to be very be humble very humble I'm telling you man humility is everything bro cheers first of all that's why you're humble cheers no I'm sure that's why we don't cheer with water but I don't have anything else but yeah I think first of all I think like you're humble I think for us I think one of the key one of the key things that we look for when working with people is humility I don't want to be joking it's like it's so hard to have a conversation with someone who is arrogant you just can't you just because they are so full of, they're so, they're so confident in their version of the future that no one knows about.

43:55You see what I'm saying, right? I think, and you have certainly been one of the most open-minded, right? And the most like, willing to just brainstorm and discuss ideas or how to present things or how to, you know, about what the future might look like, you know? Yeah, and obviously you have always been one of the most like, I also think that you've done a terrific job of like selecting your partners so far. Right? And yeah, I think obviously work together for a year now on different things. Yeah, it's awesome. I feel like as we go on to the next phase of Jupyter, right? Like finding, having a reliable partner to help us tell the, I would say, a very specific story of Web4 is very important.

44:41you know so yeah so i think um obviously i think you have obviously as many times i think you've done an amazing job in terms of that's building up your brand and the network and your competencies over time you know right um so yeah it's been a real pleasure seeing you grow and i just thought it'd be fun to grow together you know yeah that's all actually i never thanked you uh personally i think i wrote it a bunch of times but you're the one who helped me think much bigger really yeah because I'm I'm very humble I may be like never this guy with this big vision but you're always like think much bigger think much bigger think much bigger even the first partnership we did together I sent it to you you're like think much bigger think much bigger and I'm like shit maybe I should think much bigger yeah think bigger and then you see like the year passing by you're like holy shit actually like I'm able to do some good shit too so so so here's very important right so that's let's switch from talking about Jupiterfall right just talk about life in general right I feel like what's actually very important is that people stack wins.

45:40Stack small wins. Towards some end point. Because people it's actually very hard. It's actually very hard because what I see the most often is that people you have two class of people. The first class of people are people who they can they have a lot of small wins. But the wins are like this. Horizontal. what I'm saying? That means their wins are like, that means that they'll kind of do the same thing again and again for a long time. So they're consistent, but they do this in a long time. There are some people who go for the big ones, big wins. They just want, oh, I want this to be 10x, 100x, blah, blah, blah, something, right?

46:22And then they are like, sometimes they make it, but most of them they don't. And because they always go for the big swing, you just need, it's actually quite easy to die. You think to lose, right? And then to be out of the game, right? I mean, that's literally quite average, right? I think we've seen that many times before in crypto. So I think the way I think, the strategy I think is under, but most people will go like, either you, so like we are kind of taught to do these two things, right? It's like, since you were young, it kind of doesn't matter what society belong to, right? It's like, you know, it's like we're either taught to be consistent or to go for a big win.

46:56You know what I'm saying? I think there's a third approach that's underrated, right? It's called stacking wins. You know what I'm saying? Right? And so it's not the same as just doing something again, again, right? It's not the same as GIFO big win, it's not. It's like you are like, you're consistently stacking the win, right? And then at some point you need to trust, if you keep stacking the win, at some point you get to a certain, you get a certain like, you know, network effects. You know what I'm saying? Your own personal effect, such that you can do things that you can't ever do before. See what I'm saying, right?

47:30I think brand building, how you did your, how did you, it's just amazing, right? It's like you didn't just do the similar thing again and again, right? But instead you started becoming more consistent, more regular and bigger guests and bigger brand. See what I'm saying? And then you just kept going. What I'm saying? And at some point, wow, you have a certain brand. People like your great partners will trust you. And then you can access way more people than you could otherwise. So I think it's a lot of it. So basically when we had a conversation about, what, two years ago? Around there? Kind of?

48:08A year and a half. I think I was like, bro, it's like, because I think you were, for me anyway, I saw that, okay, you were judging your future based on where you were, right? I'm like, no, it's like, don't think that we think this way, right? Think of, because the more you do, the more you stack. At some point you go, wow, holy shit. I can do things I can't do before. Holy fuck. What am I saying? So I feel like that's actually, I think a very useful mindset, you know? So it's not about, so it's not about like just thinking much bigger, right? It's more like you're gonna pair that big thinking along with a very consistent strategic way of piling up the wins, you know, to get to the point whereby you can actually execute on what you're thinking, you know?

48:56And same for Jupyter, right? I think, so now I think I have this like, So we are in this process now, right? Whereby we are actually aiming to stack up the different competencies and different mindsets and different skill sets, different team, different talent to be able to execute, you know what I'm saying? On what we want to be in, I would say, Jupyter V2. This is what you call synergies of scale. Ah, accurate. It's awesome. Let's go. You made it too easy for me. No, I mean, it's funny, right? What are synergies of scale for people? Okay, so, so, so. I mean, everyone who did economics know that there's an idea called economics of scale, right?

49:40And it's probably one of the most common economic concept, right? And I've always learned that since. I learned that since. But basically, I think, just to get back to the point, I think that every single, I think all these conventional economics, they're not wrong per se, but then I think they, I think I like to do the thing about, I just rethink them. So I do the thing about, I look back at what I, I started, I guess, like way back. And then I rethink them, right? You know? So I think one of the things I always find interesting is the economic scale, right? I think what I was looking at crypto is that there's a synergy of scale.

50:18Like how do you, for example, you're being a factory, right? You need to be very, very careful about how you,

50:28what things you choose to build, how you resource your resources, how you unify operations, how your teams work to harvest the economy of scale. Because otherwise, you can have 10 car factories, but then if they don't share any, if they don't share any knowledge, don't share anything and stuff, then you're worse than having 10 separate car factories. is that kind of scale right now i think and the idea is that you know you can source material you can source materials from suppliers you can source metadata deals everything is that kind of scale so i think that the the way i think about in crypto is a bit different um i think because um our our capital requirements are so low you see everything you can scale up you can scale out a really big business running very little hardware right i'm saying you know right and it can be extremely cost efficient right across many things right so i think um it's that's what i can scale But I think of it as synergy skill.

51:23It says, how do you put together people? Like how do you put together teams? Each of them with a certain mindset, certain ideas and certain competency and certain ambition. And they execute on their staff. But it ends up helping everybody else. I think for us, that's how we think about team building at Jupiter. What business lines can we start? or what teams do we set up and how do they work with each other in a way that where the sum is bigger than the whole. I think portfolio is a good example. I think the Jutor portfolio is like the best portfolio product in DeFi, full stop, or probably in the world actually.

52:10And I think as a standalone product, it's not interesting or maybe it doesn't have as much economic value. right but then when you put it in uh when you when you put it in a a a system like jupyter right you know that has a lot of other ways of creating value right sense then it becomes really great because it becomes like this way it has a way for us to like drive a lot of like usage and distribution you know to a very important user base you know yeah how do you know what to buy what to build or who to partner with build synergies of scale because you say oh this portfolio outside it's cool but nothing special not that amazing I put it here inside changes the whole game I think that the I think that the the answer is like and again I think over here okay it's gonna be it's gonna sound weird right but I think it's about I think the the core decision making metric I use is energy like you know energy you gotta feel you gotta feel the energy you know what I'm saying I'm not even joking it sounds voodoo and shit but I it's just wood and shit, you know, but I really think it comes on the energy.

53:19Like what, like, I think of the energy, like where, how the energy flows, you know, like, like what energy do we need? Like, you know, like do we have the, do we have the right energy to do everything forward? And, and I feel like, I mean, yes, you can, you can look at a lot like market size, you can look at so many things like market size, competence, and like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then, I always found that like, for example, even if it's a very hard project, right? But you have the right energy, AKA the right people who for example, right set up, who wants to do it. And the right demand from users.

53:57And the right flow of our competence. It gets done. I don't care how difficult it gets done. Conversely, you can have maybe the perfect team to do something technically, right? But maybe that's not good fit the team or maybe like, or maybe we don't, or maybe the teams are filling in, or maybe like the users are, then it doesn't get done. So I think for us it's like, what it is, again, it sounds crazy, but like my, and I'm not sure, I'm not sure if it's bullish or bearish for Jube. But I think a lot of decisions we do is energy based. Yeah, it's just like intuition, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and that's why I like cats.

54:40And we're gonna think there's an instinct that is actually very powerful, you know? But again, the tricky thing is actually it might be wrong. So I think it's actually very important to very often take a step back, right? And reflect, you know, on like, okay, cool, right? Like, you know, what are things that we did that maybe wasn't that great? So I'm saying, you know, right? And what do we really need to change? What am I saying? So I think for Jupiter, I think certainly, I think we are probably one of the most like least understood companies, projects in the space because we do so many things that people really like and admire.

55:14But we also occasionally do things that people really like. So I think the counterpoint to the whole energy theory of digital making is a need to very often take a step back and reflect and think about where and how that approach might not be that great. know i'm saying you know or or more like where uh where you might not be good and you need to update your mental model you know yeah before we talk about community what's the omni chain problem oh and how does uh drip net fit into that and solve that oh i love this i love this um i love this i love this uh so um by the way you know i um like so a lot of don't know this um but i let me just do a quick rundown right it's like i started wbc rap btc yes it's the largest btc it's it's kind of like i think 10 billion or something so basically it was for people to use bitcoin in central finance on a third you started that 10 billion dollar in market cap yeah yeah for sure yeah um and then to be clear i started that and then uh a lot of people did the work i think to do great right you know um yeah but i was um i I started that together with some friends like Lloyd and Ben from BigGo.

56:43And then, yeah, I think it was, and so I've always been, and obviously, and even before that, I've been looking to, I've been fascinated, right, by projects like Polkadot or Cosmos, right? You know, like projects that say they're trying to solve the problem, right? And then, and also obviously, and then also as PowerJupiter, right, we also work extremely closely with like, you know, many, many, many, like probably all the different variants of bridging protocols. right you know whether like you name it look at them I'm saying everyone right so I think and so I think we so I think so basically I've always been extremely also and so and then also from a a philosophical interest point of view right it started when I it started when I was first observing the the Bitcoin message right argue that you know Bitcoin is the only thing that matters everything else doesn't matter you know what I'm saying right now In parallel, in parallel, in parallel, I was the senior advisor to portfolio, right?

57:42Who was actually the number one odd coin portfolio. Yeah, that got bought by FTX. Yes, they got bought it, right? No, I just bought it, right? Yeah, exactly. And then, so, but basically that was, so that user base was the opposite of Maxis, right? It was like very much about odd coins, right? And the, yeah, so basically I think I was like, holy shit, it's actually very interesting. It's like, the, Bitcoin Maxis might insist that there's only one coin that matters, but the reality is that the world really wants more chains and more coins. You see what I'm saying? They want more stuff, they want more chains, right?

58:20And it's just crazy amount of animal spirits involved whenever new chains started, right? And so there's this crazy excitement, crazy interest, like crazy like everything. And then at some point I realized, holy shit, this chain acceleration is gonna go through like immense numbers of like boom and bust, right? What does it mean? It means that you are, you're always going to go through cycles where a ton of change happens, most of them die. Ton of change happens, most of them die, right? And I see that and I just kept seeing that again and again, right? Whereas Bitcoin, a lot of Bitcoins came out, right?

58:54Ethereum, Ethereum, Kera, and so on and so on came out. So I feel like I just, holy shit. So I think that was a certain moment of clarity for me, right? Well, okay, we are headed to a million chains. right you know it doesn't matter um it kind of doesn't matter right what what people say what the maxis says right the maxis means multi-chain word yeah like like basically it means like uh it means like uh it means that it doesn't the kidding here is actually you like the maxis are always gonna say right oh you just need one chain right but the reality is that you mentioned right so i think and so i think uh anyway both from a so anyway what i'm saying is i think this this um This problem has actually been very top-mind for me, right?

59:38You know, very, very, since like way back, right? From a philosophy point of view, from my own experience in building Rappetitzi, right? And also just my experience in like kind of interacting and integrating, not just interacting, integrating, right? And using, right? Like infinitely lost systems, right? you name it, you name it, you say, right, or interact with it somehow, right, you know, so I think, yeah, so in summary, I think that, also one of the projects I was advising, you know, Fruitt, Fruitt, yeah, Fruitt, amazing. That you used to build, you planned. Yeah, yeah, we planned with you, but they also have, they also tried to solve this problem with a different system called Avocado, right, as well, right, you know, so I was like, quite involved in that as well.

1:00:22Yeah, I think, yeah, so I think in general, I think that, so basically I think that okay and then you start to realize that holy shit it's like you really have a lot of it's such a hard problem because like you have a lot of liquidity problems UX problems security issues like how do you accounting issues right and so it's so very interesting because like for example if you even a very very popular token like say like say SPX right you know you bridge it to so on the volume is like 1 % I'm not joking it's insanely low right you know you would think that you would think that there's a lot of people in swan who want to buy spx or hype nah not really so i thought and you start to realize oh wow it's actually a very strong like it's not just technical it's not just technical not us and liquidity not just financial it's also it's also a very strong like tribalism element doing you know what i'm saying right holy shit and yeah so in summary jubinet is our jubinet is um our um attempt you know to build a um a holistic network to really make it easy for users and projects and anyone to easily navigate a world where there are million chains.

1:01:36You know what I'm saying? And this also means rethinking, not just how Omnichain works, but also how the UX works. For example, like today, blockchain UX is still pretty much the same as Bitcoin. It's private key, public key based. That means you're always in your wallet. to sign the stuff, right? So we started thinking, hey, you know what? If we really want to build a world whereby a billion people can actually interact easily with a million chains, see what I'm saying? How would that look like? So we developed this new kind of called ADI, right? So I really worked my ass off, right? To get some of the smartest guys I know to come together to work on this problem.

1:02:12How do we rethink blockchain UX, right? For like over a year. And now it's cool now. It's like you can do things that passkey on, like, you know, passkey on chain. You can log in on chain passkeys and signed transactions and lots of stuff to do. And then, and also, we're also rethinking a lot of the, how sequencing works and everything. But yeah, so I think, yeah, so that's Jupyman, I think. So we are also a Jupvm. So Jupvm, basically, we are just heavily modifying current VMs to be able to do the things you want to do, you know, the omission stuff, the identity stuff, and also the sequencing stuff.

1:02:45Yeah, so that's Jupyman. Yeah. It's like a very hard one. It's hard, but it's fun too. is like we're having so much fun right now we're just thinking like hey what what what infra like what what foundational infra will be the um like what foundation infra will be kind of like the the best um uh the best system possible to um um to solve this omission problem you know what i'm saying yeah so i think uh yeah and and then yeah there's an infra on one side there is the apps on other side and use the community on the other side let's talk with let's start with the token community let's go um the token has not performed really well since the tg no people not happy about that token holders what's your plan to revive the token how do you prove the token i feel like um it's also interesting right you know how i was talking just now about how like um how we do a things well you know but i do this things well right i would say that i think and part of the reason why i took a long time off social is that i really felt a very intense need right to just like rethink you know how i'm going about um how i went about you know like building up the token narrative and also how i explain everything i think that the i mean what i'm going to say next is going to be not what city province are here.

1:04:11But I think we need to fundamentally make the token a lot more synergistic with the token story. A lot more synergistic with how we go about community building and how we go about being a platform. Basically, that's actually, I think that probably the biggest gap right now people don't quite like like even though we have the 50 percent leader box right we actually so theoretically speaking we we do the 50 percent in the box right which means that you're buying back the 50 percent of the revenue goes to the token so that would mean that if jupiter makes 300 million a year they would buy back 150 yeah that that box right and actually that's actually a very heavy investment right it is absolutely absolutely So it's not earnings, but it's reps, right?

1:05:04And then, but I think at some time, there really isn't that, but in the perception of, but yet in the perception, right? Of the general investor community, right? They don't see the link. You see what I'm saying? You know, right? You know, right? And also, there are things also, because we are actually investing a lot in the future, right? We are actually not maximizing for revenue. We're not. You know, we are really investing a lot in like the future, future infra, future position, future growth, everything. So I think we are definitely not, we're definitely not like revenue maximizing my new chance, right?

1:05:40So I feel like, and yeah, so I feel like, that's something that actually puzzled me a lot, right? In the sense that like, okay, you know, we are already, actually, I actually went about asking quite a lot of people. They don't even know. They don't even know that we do that. See what I'm saying? You know, right? So I feel like we, I feel like we've done a really really like not I feel like there's really three things I feel like the way a token was presented and to a community when it first launched was like a governance token so I think that kind of anchored a lot of the narrative around the token and it's still and that narrative is still there today the second thing that anchored the second thing that anchor token a lot was like, like people was a voting mechanism where people would vote for like, vote groups and also doubt updates.

1:06:38And a lot of times, like a lot of times those votes involved them, involved giving to people, right? And I think that was something that didn't cause a lot of discomfort as well. Yeah. I think there are things that actually, and the big things that I think it wasn't very clear how, and this, by the way, remember, is despite of the 50 % in the box, by the way, people were not clear how, people were not clear how the evolution of Jupiter, right, see what I'm saying? Both the present, both the present, the midterm and the future, right, could help you, right? Then again, this despite the 50 % thing.

1:07:16You see what I'm saying? So anyway, this really got me thinking that, wow, holy shit, it's like, I think the token story now is just way too complicated. There's too much stuff going on. There's governance, there's Dao, there's like, you know, this thing, Jupiter's thing. So I feel like right now, I think that what's actually really important is to come back to first principles, you know? And like, firstly, we need to do a much better job, which is, by the way, since I'm here, by the way, of like just sharing about Jupiter, right? See what I'm saying? Right? Where Jupiter is going, right? And second thing is that why we do things we do.

1:07:51You know what I know? And thirdly, it's like really doing a much better job in terms of like, it's funny because we, Jupiter do a lot of things that no one knows about. See what I'm saying? You know, right? And we can't do like, you know, like make it front and center. But I guess it's my fault, right? I think if I may be very brutally honest here, I am, I confuse some things. Yeah. I confuse them. Ah, bro. It's a long conversation, bro. Wow. Let me just share a little bit here. I'll just do a few things. I confuse them. I was always good at like communication. I mean, I thought, but then I, but then generally when I, generally if I focus, I'm pretty good at like telling a story.

1:08:36I'm pretty good at narrating, right? But I confuse being able to tell stories with being able to communicate a narrative coherently, right? I think a big reason is that I think I would talk about like 20 things. you know, and not particularly paid a lot of attention to like, what's the main thing, you know, that needs to be delivered. Right. So I think that actually resulted a lot of situations as well. I think like people just didn't understand Jupiter or the JUPIT token. Right. You know, and second thing is, I think, and the second big thing is that I think I really, and second big mistake I made is that I think I really focused a lot of the community energy on, I think, things that created a breakdown.

1:09:25between the people who are the most involved in the community and the token holders, aka the DAO group votes. The DAO group votes. So I think that process sounded amazing on paper. I'm saying you have the DAO votes for a sell team that now gets the legitimacy to help Jupyter and represent Jupyter. So then that concept was great on paper. But in reality, in reality, right, it's like, there wasn't sufficient trust built up between the work groups which are great people but they're amazing people by the way, you know, and the token holders, right, leading to a lot of mistrust, right, you know, and then, and that, and then like, and a lot of token holders felt like, even though the numbers were actually quite small in comparison to everything, but they felt that it was, it was like a damaging group, right?

1:10:19I think I, I think the, the constant and that repeated many, many, many times. And then I feel like I should have been way more sensitive to that problem. And it really created a ton of issues. I think I was too late to see. Because I think I must admit that I was probably being too, I think I was probably being too caught up in terms of the terms of the terms theoretical correctness, you know, of the system, you know, but not neglecting how like, in practice, it created a friction, you know, between the two, the sets of people, right, that were the most critical, you know, the people who were doing work for Jupyter and representing Jupyter and the token holders.

1:11:08And that, that, that friction was not noticed by me until probably too late. And the third thing that I will say, I will say I did, I did not do well is that, I just, I think, I didn't properly synergize, you know, the goals of Jupiter, what we're doing and then making and reassuring people that like, you know, the token was a big part of it, you know, and that we did the work, you know, of the 50 % data boxing, but we didn't really do the other part that was very important, the part that was very important, which is to, you know, constantly communicate, right? I'm saying, you know, why, like why this token is a really big part of our plans, you and we are really working on it.

1:11:53And it's funny because if you look at other projects that do way less than us, you know what I'm saying? Have way less real tech, real users, and real in front of us, but they do better. It's because I think they do the opposite. So I was talking to some friends that it's funny. They're like, bro, you guys are probably the most, you guys have the most interesting dynamic. Most teams do this much, right? Most teams do this much. They talk about the token this much. then you guys do the exact opposite. You guys do this much. So I feel like it's actually, so I feel like, I feel like I think that's my third mistake, right?

1:12:29I didn't quite understand. I didn't, I didn't quite understand how important it is to, like, I thought, again, I thought, I thought that like, if we do the litter box thing, it should be great. It should be obvious, right? But it's not, it's obvious. It's not obvious at all. In fact, I think that, in fact, what I realized that like, wow, we make this a really big, really big, like, you know, like a thing that we did, right? It's been saying, I'll give 50 % to the token thing, right? You know, it actually doesn't matter because ultimately, ultimately, what really anchors a token is not, it's not like, it's not that.

1:13:07It really comes down to, and it's same for Bitcoin, same for Ethereum, same for Solana, same for hype, same for anything, right? It really is like the fundamental optimism about a token, right? So I feel like that's actually one thing you do right now. We need to rethink our entire, and that's what we're doing, by the way. We have to, like, by the time of this podcast and stuff, I think we will have done, ideally, we already have started, you know, a number of initiatives to, like, have a big fresh start to the, to completely rethink our community dynamics, to fix a lot of our communication gaps that I think result in this problem.

1:13:46And also, I think I'll be clear. remember how I think a lot of, ironically, right? A lot of the things that are problems, I think I was always overreacting to what people wanted. Just thinking versus thinking hard about cool, right? How do I really let people understand the role JUP has? So I'm saying, you know, in the future of Jupiter, right? In the future of JUPnet, saying everything. I feel like I really need to do a much, much better job of communicating like where we are bringing Jupiter and we are bringing that. And how the Joop community is big part of that. You know, so I think that's the thing I'll do.

1:14:22And lastly, I think, like I'll say, just reading my entire, reading my entire world of your governance and everything. I still think, remember, we built the largest and most vibrant DAO, right, in crypto. Right, we did that, you know, right. And we still have it. Now, I need to make it effective and bullish. You know, so that's the thing that I must do. Yeah. So that's, so essentially summarizing, sorry for a long answer but you asked but then yeah but that's not some trading number one I think we need to completely uproot how we tell the Jupiter story including group secondly to rethink how we communicate about the token and or even think about the token right and thirdly to and yeah and thirdly to I forgot that one but yeah basically to really reflect and and just understand that this game the token game is different from the product game right that's actually one really really big thing for us yeah how do you think or integrate the evangelist community and the users community into this kind of bigger picture yeah yeah it's so interesting I think another thing that I started another thing that I started really having a much better like realization of right that previously previously right previously i think my concept community was kind of naive you know i was like okay this community bank you know like token token holders you know um token holders people in there like people doing seven adult users blah blah they're all like one community right now right and i was like i was like now i'm like holy shit it's very different right it's very different right and then uh like uh and and and so what i think is that like and and what i what i experienced the whole of last year right is how different they can be holy it's insane so i think that um i'll be honest if i need to be brave you know i need to be brave and i need to do a number of things that like um uh because um like i need to just like realize that there's no like i commit i'm happy you know right but instead i understand very clearly okay i have the users right i have the people who are evangelizing you know or doing stuff for jupyter i'm saying right you know like like leading different initiatives in jupyter the community right you know and also like the token holders right so we need to understand i need to kind of create an extremely synergistic you know mental model between all three you know but but it starts from really understanding that they have different mental models and different objectives different liars i think yeah so i think i think my failure to do um my failure to to do that well in the first year i think is one of the root issues with the token yeah so i think so in summarize that three right number one to summarize that three big issues right and by the way sorry if i'm just like going through this thing because i i'm actually thinking on the fly you know i'm saying articulated in a somewhat comprehensible way, right?

1:17:34So firstly, it's like much better understanding, much better communication about what Jupyter is, right? The second thing is like rethinking and communicating the role of Jup, right? And again, again, again, it's not just enough to do it, right? You know, we did a 50 % thing, you know, right? But if you don't follow that up with a very, very clear and constant communication and assurance wouldn't see that and doesn't matter anyone's worse by the way right and thirdly just realizing that you're coming unhappy but also realizing that you know you do actually have distinct you know community members you know who are very different in the setup and then creating a synergic look between them you know so my failure to do my failure to do these trainings well to tell along the story of Jupiter to to

1:18:33to really think about what makes a token bullish and confident. And thirdly, around how I didn't really understand the three key community groups. I think that's the root of, those three things are the root of, I think, Jupyter's problems. And you have plans for that? Of course, always. I mean, that's why I took a forced sabbatical, right? Of two months from socials, you know, to really think through everything. Yeah, I think I have good plans for that. And this podcast is how we started, you know? Seriously, it is. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much, Mia, for doing this. Thank you for doing the insanely hard work that you put in every day and every night to make this whole space more accessible, more usable for everyone yeah yeah yeah i think that i think it's fun i think that uh i think i'm also i'm also insanely grateful man i'm so grateful i mean despite everything i'm so grateful you have no idea man i just i actually do wake up every day going like wow holy shit i'm so lucky you know i'm so lucky man it's lucky that people people don't people who are in this space i think they often focus on like why things are difficult right you know that the pressure the dynamics the competition and everything and stuff but i don't know i feel like i'm telling you bro i'm telling you like we are so lucky man i was like i spent a lot i spent a long time in the valley i spent a long time in the valley i spent a long time in like before the just figuring this out and crypto is really like the um the industry right that really opens doors you know globally like like i mean i'll just end up i just end up by saying something right is that um you know in tech you you have to go to Silicon Valley that's like the only that's the only if you have to be Silicon Valley right you know because like that's actually where or somewhat because like that's where you assess capital and talent and everything you know right but then I think um but crypto opens it up you know like with crypto it's like I think crypto opens it up like it's like you can get like really talent and capital and energy is just so much more global you know I love that I think that and I think that's actually a really good summary of why I'm so motivated you know to make like make the web forward accessible by anyone right because i really think that the word is so much better right it's like if anyone anywhere right can the same opportunities to access to create an exchange you know it would be so amazing and that's what we're about yeah and that's what jupiter is about it's on jupnet it's about and that's what that's what the jup token will be about yeah you said you're grateful i'm also very grateful from me and from the When Shift Happens team to you and to Jupiter for supporting us in our mission to make this space more credible.

1:21:26Awesome. You guys did a good job. Let's go. Let's go. Thank you. Thank you. As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest names in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air. The Shift newsletter is where I share that raw behind the scene alpha. The insights, stories and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere else. If you want the real insight take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below.