E163: Jupiter President: How Crypto Will Replace Your Bank (And Why Wall Street Knows It)

32:03are we 5 % there 10 % there 50 % there I think with everything, there's a bell curve, right? I think we're still at the very early stages of institutional adoption. I know there's a lot of press releases and a lot of... I'm actually surprised. I spoke at a lot of conferences where people wanted to put me on stage with the head of digital assets at Goldman and all of these other big institutions. And I was very surprised talking to some of my peers back then. Huge banks, right? Like some of the biggest banks or financial institutions in the world. Some of them just, you know, if they are not interested or don't care or just clearly pivoted away, they wouldn't even show up, right?

32:55But those that show up, sometimes I was really surprised that they had hundreds of people globally. like not even business like even product engineering people like building stuff right and uh and i always wondered like back then it was like three four five years ago it was like how do you you know what type of businesses can you build in corporate that would sustain even the cost base or something like that but it's probably depending on yeah depending on the view of each company and and team ultimately how long the payback and the sort of what's the view on the timeline is of of real adoption and i think there's a very wide spectrum right you have you have the lights of maybe blackrock that just accelerated very quickly very heavily into into things and then you have on the other spectrum still i would say majority of institutions being very careful and not really leaning in and then you have probably the decent chunk of early adopters that are now experimenting with tokenization especially um rwa um on-chain credit um and then and then of course you have a whole bunch of you know trading and market making firms that are it's just very clear right this is just another market that is very inefficient very large now increasingly large and i think more the sort of on the high frequency side you see just very clearly it's close to the core to what they anyway do and so they spin up very relevant business units to kind of like you know drive towards the market share in this market and then i would say for the more slower moving assets that are hard to tokenize, that will take much longer.

34:48Ultimately, the way I... If you think, if you believe that crypto is not just about Bitcoin and altcoins, right? That are basically digitally crypto-native issued things that are not backed by non-crypto or like off-chain things, then you kind of if you believe real world things can come on chain over time then the question very quickly becomes where do you draw where do you draw the line right if you believe that clearly stable coins are working right clearly they are providing real world benefits to a lot of participants in the world which doesn't just require you to believe in whether bitcoin retains value or whatever but if stable coin is the first step right like where do put the where do you draw the line right because stablecoin is essentially tokenizing us dollar right you can very very easily like a lot of people are working on different other currencies and then you think about okay what are the assets that are very very standardized very liquid and you don't have to have a lot of customization and then you kind of go down very quickly all of the different markets right around credit probably easier than private equity right obviously public stuff is is probably easier than private stuff you have to change less things and so you go down the whole like public equity public credit private credit private equity and then what will be much harder is like stuff like um real estate and and and other sort of luxury goods because it's much more unique right each asset um but if you believe that things will come on chain and there are benefits on it and we're clearly seeing signs of that happening and really having value then there's almost like no limit to the time you can put on it right it's just a question of time and um and i think that's what's so exciting in sort of building out on train financial infrastructure and um building out these kind of early proof points of um what is possible and demonstrating that value in a real fashion is very exciting.

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38:04Their AI flags suspicious behavior and account takeovers in real time before damage is done. Check the link in the description down below to learn more. You said before there is no investment, there is no FOMO. when you start personally FOMOing into I need to or when you start fantasizing about going all in crypto with your job it's probably something that you start to think some time ago maybe like oh like this is like I have this itch like this is the next thing I need to go but because it's kind of intimidating it's weird because it is weird it's so different I'm not really ready yet, but you've been started to thinking about that.

38:53Yeah, I've had many, many times the fantasy. Yeah, I've had, yeah, I mean, throughout the times, right, when consensus started, I had many conversations with companies who, you know, gave me the potential opportunity to kind of make the leap. Centralized exchanges, early DeFi, DATs. Of course. But ultimately, yeah, I think I had a very fulfilling role at KKR and it was real impact. I was dealing with some landmark deals that KKR was doing and TMT. So I think like if you're in finance, right, it doesn't get a lot better than doing private equity in KKR. But ultimately, I realized I wanted to take more risk and create potentially bigger outcomes.

39:54And yeah, as I mentioned, the timing was right when, you know, it was just, it was not like value creation in crypto. So now I think it's not just about this early stage narrative and proof of concept and big visions and then trying to make it happen. But it's now increasingly about, yeah, not the infrastructure narrative anymore. It's about the application layer value creation. And we're dealing now more with adoption and metrics that are fully on chain. I think that was the time for me to kind of go all in. You left TratFi and KKR for crypto, but more specifically, Jupiter. Why? I think the first step I think we talked about, right, that the macro trends I think were inflecting in a way where lines between TratFi and on-chain were blurring.

41:00and then now you start to have this application layer on top of just infrastructure. Specifically, Jupyter, I think, you know, I've met Meow and Cash, you know, one or two years before. We've been friends. We never talked too much about business, but we were highly interested. He was very interested in what I was doing at KKR, you know, how to kind of acquire businesses and build businesses and make them better. And I was very, obviously, very interested in what he was building with Jupiter. And throughout the time, I kind of just we chatted and I just observed what they were building. It was clearly something different.

41:47And I would say that it's kind of a couple of things. The track record of actually building products that people just love using every day. and you have a very loyal retail customer base, which reminds me, frankly, you know, Robinhood pre-COVID was like long tail assets, meme stocks, right? Very loyal customer base. And then around that, essentially building a financial super app, right? To basically generate more utility, more value for people in the ecosystem. system and and Jupiter kind of almost like did the same right very core use case around Dex aggregation very loyal customer base and then around which they have built a whole suite of or flywheel of product things I think the second thing is that the market itself is I and I define market not as crypto but really what I'd like to sort of now say is actually on-chain finance, right?

42:54On-chain finance is probably a subset of crypto, but I believe on-chain finance, the way we understand it, is the way how crypto is supposed to be, not what crypto is today. Where still most of the digital assets or crypto assets people own, probably 400 or 500 million people who own crypto, most of that are, frankly, in TradFi, like entities, right? They're centralized. You hand over the custody of your assets. It's not transparent what happens. They keep their customer records.

43:34And yeah, it's not permissionless, right? And all of these things, I think, are leading to a lot of problems in the way, or basically the problems that we're facing, right? Crypto today. and we simply believe there is a better way to build products and structure the way things should be done because the technology now makes it possible. And the market is still tiny, right? I think we're only dealing with a couple million of real regular on-chain users globally. If you compare that to Robinhood, Robinhood is probably 30 million monthly active users. Binance, probably 300 million. So roughly, roughly.

44:22So it's like a 10 to 100x growth opportunity, just from a market size perspective. I believe, if you believe that OnChain is the better way, then the question is like, you know, what share should it have? And you already see today that taxes are steadily taking share from taxes, right? More and more activities are going on chain. A lot of decentralized chains are incubating their own taxes, right? Trying to disrupt themselves before they get disrupted. And so I think market potential, so track record of the team, market opportunity. The third one is integrity, because I just felt most crypto projects and founders I've met, right, you have this very quick boom and bust cycles of narrative getting very hot, launch a token, and then things don't work out, and founders or team basically lose, move on doing something else.

45:25but i felt that the jupiter team really just consistently shipped and built things products that people needed and wanted to use throughout their market and bull market they started actually at probably the worst time in solana history right and sort of rebuilt kind of infrastructure right how to aggregate liquidity and and demand out of the ashes of ftx almost um stitching together the very fragmented liquidity pools indexes uh throughout solana and very quickly finding program fit and i think the other thing is also just what was tremendous is that jupiter never raised funding which is very very rare to see not only in crypto but in tech bootstrapped companies that grows into nine-digit fees, revenue range.

46:22It's pretty crazy. But I think it was done in a way that was just in the right way. On-chain, permissionless, self-custodial, and global access. right almost like giving the underbanked and unbanked around the world a way to transfer value financial value in less than a second right um doing doing things in a way that that are supposed that how it actually should be and really showing that there is a better way than a traditional finance or like centralized way ways of doing finance how it can be i think that that sort of integrity of staying true to that vision and just keep shipping and adding new things to the way despite what happens in the altcoin markets has always been I think the one of the core tenors and then the last thing I would say is complementarity because I think the team is extremely strong on the product and engineering side both co-founders are very very very focused on product user experience and engineering but where i think i'm bringing a lot of complementarity is like the connectivity into you know the world outside of you know crypto twitter and solana trenches and i think that's ultimately the the bigger market and finding a voice and having an interface towards that word engaging them um telling the story generating the awareness reaching out right um is something that i think we just realized it's it's very complimentary what's maybe needed we still debate how we sort of do it but probably needed in every crypto project in every relevant ones yeah absolutely yeah what are you trying to personally improve with this Jupiter chapter of your life?

48:33I think every few years I've pivoted. I always started something. I dived into something completely new and started almost from zero. And probably was able to grow quickly into these new markets, new societies, new cultures. And I feel like now I'm really diving into this completely new culture. It's almost like going from communist China to Germany, but the other way probably. You're going from a very established, extremely well-working, efficient machine that kind of is the apex of private capital to almost like the Star Wars Jedi rebellion, right? With the Ewoks. And we're like... But I like it.

49:23It's like we're... we're yeah but very capable very talented and capable you know and just like running around and building great things and having a super engaged community and uh yeah and i just felt like there is actually a lot more a lot more a lot more like upside opportunity right having impact and generating something that really proves others wrong. I think that creates the fire now. And obviously, I realize I'm not fully kryptonated, but I've been around for a long time as a participant. But now having the ability to really help shape, find a voice, making the right statements is quite exciting.

50:15for the first time you know in the history we you know took on outside investment um parify um made a 35 million investment into the into the token um i think this is just an example of like where these worlds are really emerging right even though jupiter was like bootstrapped and profitable throughout, we felt it was necessary to have strategic allies in this quest to reach out and bridge from on-chain crypto finance towards the wider world of institutions, real-world assets, organizations. And we need to have these allies to kind of like, almost like push forward the greater good, right, of like rebuilding crypto in a way it was supposed to be.

51:12So indirectly, KKR invested in Jupiter? Because you said before, KKR invested in some funds, Dragonfly, Parafi, and now you're telling me Parafi invested in Jupiter. Are you one of the reasons why this happened? Well, yes. Or are you the reason this happened? Not the only reason, but I would say definitely a catalyst. Like at all of like, you know, because it's not, we didn't need to. But actually coming to a decision that it was helpful in a way to have other voices in a room and having this strategic partnership. And this is just an example. We obviously, we are integrated with Coinbase and, you know, Robinhood.

52:04already right and and i think there's a lot more there to come um because we are the main distribution layer the customer layer on solana we're just jupyter is just becoming more and more relevant right as a you know product company and um and bringing that utility and that's this product value towards the current audience, right? Core audience. You need to have partnerships, integrations. You need to, yeah, have allies, right? That believe in the long-term vision and not just there to sort of make a quick buck, but a really long-term aligned on building out the best possible version of blockchain finance.

52:47So Parafi invested$35 million in DripToken. Can you explain simply what's the logic behind that very concretely what's the thought process of saying we don't need money because we generate so much money every year but we want to do this these are the three, four, five things that this that taking an investment from Parafi can bring to Jupiter as a whole Jup token Jupiter holders etc what's the logic that goes into that I think first and foremost, we wanted to send a signal to the market that because we are today in a very depressed token market, there's a lot of debates ongoing about fundamentals, buybacks.

53:43and the reality is when you look at investments and deals being done into tokens, a lot of the activity actually happens by discounted OTC deals, which is very intransparent and we frankly believe are not long-term aligned for project and investors, because if the token price actually stays constant or flat and even declines slightly, investors can still make money if the discount is large enough. So what's the deal with Parafi on that front? It's essentially a deal that is basically at no discount to spot price and with an extended lockup compared to market standard. And in addition, Parafi gets warrants to purchase the Drup token at much higher prices than the current to really align the long-term incentives.

54:53And basically, Parafy would just do well when Drupal does very, very well. And basically not a short-term trade, but a long-term holding. Why would they do that? What's the incentive for Parafy to invest$35 million in the Drup token when markets are pretty depressed. Jupiter is an incredible business with an incredible team. They ship like pretty much no one else. They make crazy money, but the token performance is bad.

55:28I cannot speak for PowerFi directly. I think it's worth maybe having a chat with them directly. But yeah, I believe they're very much aligned on the long term. and maybe that's the sort of coming back to KKR DNA right not being traders but being long term investors seeing something that has a lot of growth potential over the next five years as opposed to the next six months and forming conviction around that seeing proof points very clear sort of proof points around products around numbers around adoption and forming that thesis and and yeah making that strategic investment is probably what's going on i cannot you know i can only guess but uh but it was it was very constructive throughout the the process and yeah i like we we at jupyter we like people that we like to do things that no one else does we like to come up with things that are just unexpected that are unique but i think the the vision alignment is the is the key the mission alignment long term right as soon as we felt the long term how we saw the world of on-chain finance forming and how we wanted to build towards that we just got a lot of found a lot of alignment and it that was the i guess foundation of the things and the timing we were not in any rush right but um yeah we want to send a signal while the markets are depressed i guess and um

57:31Quick one. I want to thank our partners who help us make this show possible. Thank you, Treasurer. My favorite cold wallet to store my crypto and make sure I sleep well at night. If you want to order a Treasurer wallet and sleep well at night too, you can use my promo code WSH10 to get a 10 % discount. Big thank you to Bitwise Asset Management for backing today's conversation. Bitwise is a crypto specialist asset manager with more than$15 billion in client assets across 30 plus crypto solutions, including ETFs, index funds, alpha strategies, staking, and more. However you like to invest in crypto, Bitwise has something for you.

58:07Thank you to our friends at SWE for supporting this show. SWE is a scalable layer one blockchain that's fast, secure, and affordable, built by previous Facebook developers, and that delivers the benefits of Web3 with the ease of Web2. To support this show, please check the sponsor links in the description down below. What's on-chain finance like in five years?

58:33Very good question. I think it's a very big question, right? If I may just think from the Jupiter product strategy perspective. The way we think about how we want to sort of build out that vision of Onchain Finance, how it's supposed to be, right? Whether it's in three or five years, we see broadly three pillars right now. The first one is the Onchain Super app. Right now on Solana, right? We are, you know, one of the largest applications on Solana. And that will just continue because we will continue to build out the flywheel, we will add new products. We should, you know, prediction markets, stablecoin, offer peer-to-peer lending.

59:24A lot of different products will continue to be added to that product flywheel. But it's all, like, within on-chain. So you are already on-chain users. How do I get more value while doing my everyday on-chain activities? The second pillar is what we call Twitter Global. It's essentially a payment, on-chain payment stack or solution. which enables you to pay with a stable coin based visa card around the globe in the fancy restaurant in new york as well as in the in the jungle in vietnam in vietnam as we discussed with the first ever on chain qr pay which we're very proud of and really differentiated because we want to also target those that don't have the same level of banking access in emerging markets.

1:00:19The QR pay, I was really, you know, a staggering fact that the QR pay market is like a$5 trillion market today already, right? It's a significant portion of global cards volumes, actually. Concretely, what does that mean? Does that mean that I go to Vietnam, I want to pay for pho or whatever, food or there's a QR code. Yeah. Imagine you're like... I can pay with my stable coins or whatever. And it's going to convert that into Vietnamese dong and be received in Vietnamese dong by the shop. Yeah. Zero fees. What does zero fees mean? is that there is no intermediary like credit card networks, payment processors that charge a traditional sort of debit.

1:01:12So zero fees for the restaurant, zero fees for the user, zero exchange rate fees. Probably there is some money made somewhere. Yeah, there's a little bit. But we want to kind of push out always the best for the user and the merchant to really drive adoption.

1:01:32And the crazy thing is that the QRA market, most of the adoption today happens in emerging markets like Southeast Asia and Latin America because the traditional financial infrastructure is not as developed. And merchants simply don't have the same level of POS terminal access and banking access. and so yeah that's just from a philosophical perspective we're very excited about like you know bringing the adoption to these parts of the world and enable right and I think the product philosophers so the shop will never know there is crypto involved they already have their QR they don't have to do anything additional I mean you've been a lot in Asia right QR payment is like the merchants just print out the QR code on the paper and they hang it on the on the food stall or whatever you don't need a you don't need i can go to my massage in singapore it seems this thing called pay now right that you can pay with a with a with a singapore bank account qr code boom but this could be i mean this is basically now i can pay with my stable coins whatever and no one will know it's crypto right no fees yeah the the i think the product philosophy around that for me is like bringing everyday finance on-chain and you have two parts of a flywheel which is you have on the on-chain side we bring more financial utility and value to the existing on-chain assets that our existing on-chain users have so instead of just doing your swaps and your yield through lending and looping strategies or whatever like all of the DeFi strategies that existing on-chain users kind of deploy to make more money, essentially, that finally you have a way to kind of apply to your everyday payment needs.

1:03:29The worlds historically were completely separate, right? On-chain finance and everyday finance. And this is, I think, we're excited to build these kind of first links where with the rest of Jupyter, you're already on-chain super app, you already have a lot of your on-chain assets. on that stack and now being able to kind of use that in every day that is exciting but that's sort of a retention mechanism um or value increase um mechanism for existing users and existing assets the other part of the flywheel is actually bringing making it much more easier to bring in non-non-chain users to on-chain finance right so if you have something like to global you can actually you know pay qr via on-chain qr pays um it just makes it more relatable to people more useful right to also like start using that simply because it's faster it's cheaper it's more convenient right uh and once you try that out there are then all kinds of other financial things you can also do on chain whether you want to do it or not right but that's sort of the flywheel that we envision where like you constantly drive more utility through the super app to anyone who is on chain and then through jupiter global provide that window towards everyday finance and then in turn sort of bringing more people on chain and then that sort should self-reinforce itself this this flywheel anyway that's the that's the theory very very keen to see where we can go with that um and then i think the third pillar is actually omni chain execution so because the question was where do we see on-chain finance in five years i believe if you think really about the best possible user experience on-chain you have to abstract away the biggest problems and i think one of the biggest problems and adoption blockers is simply having to deal with multiple assets on multiple chains right digital assets most of them are just on one chain if you're just on solana or near or whatever right ethereum you only have assets of that chain available and the whole board bridging process is extremely difficult i think for um non-crypto users and um and i think in the future a lot of that needs to be attracted away and this is i think what the what the jubilee the team is attempting with the JukeNet, you know, effort.

1:06:11And so, yeah, I think these three things added together the best possible on-chain super app with anything you could do on-chain in one place, having the window towards everyday utility, everyday finance payments, and then having omni-chain execution or a layer that just extracts away frictions around bridging and having different parts of your digital assets portfolio and different chains and just make it as seamlessly as possible to have everything in one place. This is ultimately the division, right? Giant unified markets, how Miao likes to call it. But yeah, I think these are ultimately the elements, I believe, of on-chain finance in the next three to five years.

1:07:00I don't know how long it will take for us, for other champions of on-chain finance to get there. But we're very committed and dedicated and excited to work with anyone pushing in the same direction to kind of make the market for on-chain finance much larger and bringing crypto to a place which is how it's supposed to be. If you had to think and choose one thing that you are absolutely most excited about at Jupiter, that makes you proud to go out there as the president of Jupiter, pitch and represent Jupiter towards institutions, what is that one thing that you choose? It's very hard to choose.

1:07:49I need to choose out of 60 different things. I have to show you a slide that we presented. I don't know. We can cut it. I mean, numbers, we don't have to talk about numbers. I mean, maybe that thing is probably one of the, to be honest, one of the reasons why I'm the proudest to have Jupiter. I mean, you can maybe show that to the camera there. What is this? I don't know. Can you zoom in? What is this? it's just like we don't really have like a you know how many companies have like a product roadmap that they draw okay for this year this is you know roughly the five things we want to do right we actually don't have a product roadmap but in hindsight it's like 2025 this is a recap of everything we shipped everything we shipped right and this is probably only half of the things because we couldn't fit the other onto the slide but i think the takeaway is just nobody ships like jupiter and somehow our team is able to kind of just continuously ship things every day every week and that's probably the most consistent thing i would say because it's very hard to choose from that to to basically say okay this is the one thing that i'm most proud of because the culture is extremely experimental in a way like i think one of the superpowers probably of um of jupyter is is just this like extreme culture of encouraging experiments and accepting failure um and extreme autonomy almost like to the product teams to say well these are clearly like there's a use case here there's customer demand let's shift something as quickly as possible, get it out, and see if it sticks, right?

1:09:43If it doesn't, we move on very quickly into something else. But that sort of just generates this extreme speed of execution and shipping. And I think in this sort of very early market structures where things are not clear what really works, right? Like stuff like PumpFun coming out, like surprised everyone, right? It's Hyperliquid doing the way, Jupiter coming out the way, they also surprised everyone. And so there are no preconceived sort of playbooks that you can follow to kind of say, oh, this is the market structure. These are the segment. This is profitable or not. Let's go after it. That's sort of the KKR playbook, right?

1:10:23In crypto, you cannot do that. So you need to have this extreme culture of innovation and experimentation. And I think ultimately that's what compounds over time. We call it synergistic compounding. And that's ultimately what we are trying to cultivate, right? Well, the Jupiter itself, the Jupiter idea was made in a ramen shop when, yeah, just now I was like, fuck it, let's do it. Literally, the whole thing, right? And you were showing this kind of like, hey, this is all what we shipped last year. I remember a year ago at the Jupiter event, they had bought some businesses and they had shipped all these products and even some of the businesses, they bought the acquisition, some of them, they choose on purpose to not talk about it during the event because that would be too much information for people to take.

1:11:24Like, okay, we'll talk about this acquisition, this one, this one, but this one we're going to keep for later because people cannot take that. It's too much. It's too much. Too much information. TMI. And so you said, I asked you, what is the one thing that you're proud of, et cetera? I would say for the podcast, one of the one thing that I'm so proud that Jupiter is a long-term partner is exactly what you said, is these people, and now you're one of them, are machines. And no matter what the crypto markets do, no matter what the token does, right? The level of shipping is so insane. It's crazy.

1:12:08And you're like, this can, the likelihood that this thing doesn't do well or doesn't do better is so low because of the amount of innovation and shipping and nonstop and 24-7 and like the hunger, but also the right ethos. It's all one thing together that you're like, I'm actually proud to be, okay, maybe there's this meme called launch and it's a fuck up or maybe some people is some crazy drama whatever but it's part of this whole experimentation thing and i mean how can you not be fully supportive and behind the team that is like so amazing it's like literally impossible right i think important thing is like it's one is the capability of shipping quickly and in this culture of like innovating and okay being okay to fail that leads to more innovation and productivity ultimately but i think a very important you know undercurrent is actually you need to have the best intentions as well absolutely and and that is maybe what what i talked early about you know integrity but despite all of the creative chaos um that leads to a lot of great things and and maybe some failures along the way.

1:13:27As long as the intention is really to build, you know, the basis of a new on-chain financial infrastructure that brings more access to the world, that makes things faster and cheaper for everyone who wants to participate. As long as the mission is like good intentions, I think all of this can be, you know, leading to a better outcome. But if the intention is extraction, you can also have great productivity and, you know, experimentation. But ultimately, then the outcome is, I think, net negative to the industry. And I think that's ultimately almost like the most important, decision factors for me.

1:14:23This podcast is called When Shift Happens. What shift is happening now that most people still don't see?

1:14:34I think we think a lot about

1:14:39market trends and shifts that are worth experimenting and innovating into. But because everything is so early, we never quite know which ones will work out and how big each of these different streams could become. That's why we're doing so many things at the same time, because we know some of these markets may become huge. Some others will collapse. I think longer term, a lot of people now talk about tokenization. tokenization we have talked about it here today i believe tokenization can be a lot bigger than people think it could be but it will require some very radical and fundamental changes than the way tokenization or rwr are done today um i think one of the things that i'm maybe two examples of things that that we're very excited about that frankly like there is no solution to it today but over the next five years i think could become very large one is just fully end-to-end capital formation which basically like today tokenized equity and a lot of the tokenized assets you create an on-chain derivative of something that works very well in the real world and replicate that in a way that is subpar in a way right you don't have the same governance rise, you don't have dividends, you don't have the same structures.

1:16:13You have some other benefits, but clearly the liquidity of something that is subpar can never rival the primary liquidity pool and venue. And ultimately, if you really want to create things that are superior on-chain, you actually have to rethink the capital formation process and actually potentially bring businesses that are not yet IPO'd in a traditional equity market to really take the same business fully, essentially IPO on chain, right? And really like tokenize the rights around it, the dividends, all of the sort of things that make an equity into what it is, but fully on chain. And that will require not only Jupyter, but a lot of automatic market participants to kind of build different parts of the infrastructure.

1:17:02But I believe that's probably the main way to really realize the full potential of on-chain capital formation. And then the second thing I think that we're also very excited about is just, I think, FX. It's something that everyone deals with every day and huge frictions around it. And if you think about just currencies around the world, in the end, they're kind of like swaps. You basically have currencies that have different qualities and values and inflations. And when you travel, when you have to go to different cultures and experience different things, you need to swap essentially one's asset into the other.

1:17:49And there is just too much friction and costs that are today associated with FX. And I think that's also one of the directions we're thinking about how we can leverage some of the infrastructure we have already built and what else need to be built to kind of like, yeah, address some of these sort of much bigger markets that are today. I think that on-chain is not fully there yet. Amazing. Thank you so much, Shasha, for doing that. thank you for joining the crypto space to help us become and look more serious towards the outside world we definitely need a lot of help on that and I hope your work, you and this podcast will inspire more serious stratified people to join us to help the other big projects out there and the other important and serious projects to get out of this echo chamber because of the big problem that we're having right now.

1:18:51Agree. Fully agree. Excited to be part and help drive things forward. Thank you for doing this podcast. Pleasure. That was awesome. Thank you. As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest names in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast, but a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air. The Shift newsletter is where I share that raw behind the scene alpha, The insights, stories, and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere else. If you want the real inside take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below.