A Secret I Can't Even Tell My Therapist

0:01In this following session, we discuss assault, and I want you to know this before you listen.

0:13So, why are we here? What made you say, okay, I need this. Why now? And what would make it helpful? I suppose I kind of feel like I have two opposing parts that I have not been able to reconcile for years. One part is this logical part, the part that listens to my friends and family, and that part says my past relationship was unhealthy and I should not be with him. I am not currently with him. We were together for nine years, married for three, have been divorced and lived in separate states for two years now. And then there is this deeper feeling part that can't let go of him. that I have never felt so lit up, desired, excited, seen with anyone else before.

1:40And so, why now? he through all this time away has stayed pretty constant in his love for me he has also dated other people in the meantime but he reaches out every few months and we started talking again maybe two weeks ago and I I know how this sounds tell me that everything he says sounds right obviously i'm not there so i can't i can only speak to what he's told me but it sounds like he has made major changes in his life he owns up and takes responsibility for the worst parts of our relationship. He seems to be reckoning with those things within himself. And so we have been talking about spending a weekend together in a few weeks.

3:09Support for the show comes from Peacock and the new original series, The Five-Star Weekend. Jennifer Garner stars as Holly Shaw, a famed cook who invites her best friends to Nantucket after a devastating loss. Based on the best-selling novel by Ellen Hildebrand, this A-list ensemble also stars Darcy Carden, Gemma Chan, Regina Hall, and Chloé Sevigny. The 5-Star Weekend is now streaming only on Peacock.

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4:35Does he know you're here? Yes. How did that come up? I told him because I wanted to say everything to him before I came to you. so my therapist close to two years ago shortly after I left had me write a breakup letter to him and this letter was a collection of the worst things in our relationship the worst moments a sort of justifying to myself and him or reminding myself of why I left. And so I recently read that letter to him before coming in here today because I wanted to hear how he would react being reminded of those worst moments. and I think he reacted well you know he was quiet it was clearly hard for him to hear those things and he apologized and owned up to it you know when we were together I often told him it was like there was two people within him there was the person I was in love with that I knew loved me.

6:12And then there was this other part that I called the stranger. And this other part would take over and all of a sudden talk to me like I was the enemy. And that was very combative, you know, led to a lot of arguments. and so I asked him what happened to that part where where is the stranger or how did you deal with that and he said it's still there I recognize that it's still there but I have to it's a combination of making decisions putting myself in the right place to not get sucked into that and to recognize what triggers are likely to bring that part of him forward. Does your therapist, he, she, they know that you, she, does she know you're here?

7:16No, no one else knows. Okay. Does she know you're going, you're planning to have a weekend with him? No. Okay. Does the logical, the contingent who lives on the logical side of you, do they know anything? no no one else knows no family no friends uh he is the only person who knows okay so the emotional passionate side of you is having a secret with the logical side one is having a secret of the other okay so i suppose i want to be clear that i am not a victim if i ever was i am not anymore and i will never be again i know that leaving was the best thing for me and I have done a lot of work on myself, a lot of growth.

8:28I feel like a completely different person than I was when I was with him and certainly than I was when we met over 10 years ago. Can I ask you for me to have a sense of a few of the things that are in the breakup letter? Mm-hmm. Is that okay? Yes, yes. It talks a lot about fighting. There was a lot of fighting, frequent argument. Often, I didn't know why we were fighting, why he saw me as such a bitch. he seemed to react to me in a way like I was looking to hurt him which I wasn't most of the time the first time that I noticed some disconnect or that he he wasn't emotionally supportive this was in our very first year together and I was finishing up grad school and I was going into my very last final.

9:40And that morning, he's sitting outside, smoking a cigarette, looking at his phone. And rather than kind of send me off in love, he said, oh, will you go buy me a cup of coffee before you go? And I was so stunned and confused. I don't have time for that. Why are you asking me to do something for you on such a big morning for me? For exactly that reason. What do you mean? You're too busy with yourself. You have too big a day. It's about you. It's about your professional autonomous pursuit. It symbolizes you being able to do things without me. It highlights my dependence on you. it highlights your independence from me and I don't like the fact that you are completely involved in something that's important to you when what should be most important to you is me yes and so you may not be shocked to find out that that attitude continued and at the time I had never been in therapy and so my kind of untreated whatever childhood wounds I was at that time looking for a source of identity in another person.

11:17How old were you? I was 20. I had just turned 24. Okay and how much is the age difference? He is 10 years older than me. Okay. So maybe it's not only about childhood wounds, maybe it's also about being young and immature. Yeah. I mean, they may be both, but just to put things in a developmental perspective as well. Yeah. And I had decided that I did not want to stay in the field that I was in graduate school for, but I also didn't have another plan. And so this guy who came along was very charming, had a career of his own. The idea of, oh, I don't have to decide. I will attach myself to this person and that will be what I do.

12:12He will be my project. And if he is not feeling well about us, my project will be to find every way possible to reassure him, make him feel secure, make myself feel deserving of him, make him appreciate me. Anymore? all of that and I stopped working on myself stopped investing in my own social life my own career and became very resentful of him that our life you know after a couple years when when we kind of stalled out professionally, developmentally, it was all his fault in my mind. If he would just do X, Y, and Z, then I would be happy. If he would do what, for example? Make more money, work harder in his own career, treat me better allow me to do whatever I wanted if that meant sit on the couch all day and he should love me anyway and be thankful to be with me so you know we both contributed thank you I appreciate and I highly respect your insights your honesty your ability to see how it takes two to create some of this he became your project and you needed him to justify all the sacrifices you made and so now he had to perform on your behalf so that you would not be as resentful for what you had given up.

14:18Exactly. If I am no longer me and you have to fill me, then I need you to be a double dose of everything at least. Yeah. And the less I liked myself and the more resentful I was toward him. Yes. And him? you know, resentment built back up because I think he initially was attracted to me because I was smart, driven, independent, had friends, and I, over the course of a few years, stopped being all those things. But I told him he couldn't say that to me. you can't criticize me. Because I made it look like I did this for you. Yes. And you are not giving me enough back and therefore you are never good enough.

15:20Yes. And so that becomes a relationship of two people who don't feel good enough and who become very fused with each other and end up at each other's throats. Yes. Physically too? Yes. A few times. Mostly shoving. Can I ask you something in the name of this really beautiful moment of accountability? do the people who belong to what you call the logical part of me, do they see the dynamic or did they buy into mean guy, sweet woman? I mean, a few of my friends and family have used the word, you are perfect. They think I am perfect and he's the bad guy. so the secret isn't necessarily that you're going to see him the secret is how either you've come to represent yourself or how the story was told back then and so it becomes the story of abusive control narcissistic guy sweet victim perfect woman who needed to save herself and your therapist What story does she go by?

16:54I don't think she would describe me as perfect. Good. But I also think at some point, I think, she decided he is irredeemable. He is irredeemable. Yes. I started seeing her with him. He actually found her and we went together. And in the first few months, she helped us immensely. Our relationship got to the happiest point it had ever been. and then he went to rehab checked himself in decided the drinking was unsustainable and then when he got out he stopped trying to work on anything else he seemed to kind of hold on to that sobriety as a kind of defense against doing any further work so I kept going and then the arguing continued he slipped back into old patterns he refused to go to therapy and after listening to me cry and complain about his behavior for a very long time she finally said you see it and then I couldn't avoid it anymore and it felt like she was my last hope that I couldn't get him to change on my own and when it became clear that she couldn't help either I knew I I loved him but I could not I would not stay in that relationship as it was

19:11we have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes

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21:28Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com slash begin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin for free shipping and 365 day returns. queens.com slash begin. Support for the show comes from Peacock and the new original series, The Five Star Weekend. Jennifer Garner stars as Holly Shaw, a famed cook known for her delicious recipes and impeccable taste. After braving a devastating loss, she decides to invite her best friends to a getaway on Nantucket. As boundaries are pushed, friendships are tested and secrets are exposed, cracks begin to emerge in her picture-perfect life.

22:19Her strained marriage, her complicated relationship with her daughter, and her growing pursuit of validation from her fans. Based on the best-selling novel by Ellen Hildebrand, this A-list ensemble also stars Darcy Carden, Gemma Chan, Regina Hall, and Chloe Sevigny. The Five Star Weekend is now streaming only on Peacock.

22:45How did he react to your leaving? he was devastated sobbed and cried and hugged me but he also he didn't fight me or try to convince me otherwise and he has said since then that he wished he had put up more of a fight but I actually really appreciated that he didn't It made me feel like he was listening, like he heard me, like he respected my decision. And when you say the patterns came back, you're referring to what? He would kind of get in his own head.

23:39Do you know why I just smiled? No. When you say the word pattern, you instantly think him.

23:55Now, he may come to you and tell you all the ways he has changed or what he's accountable for or how he understands what happened. But if when you use the word pattern, you instantly point finger at him, then the change is not reciprocal enough. It's just an observation. If the first word out of your mouth is he, then your frame hasn't shifted. I hear that. I hear that. So previously in our relationship, when I say that he would get into these kind of antagonistic moods and would pick a fight, and I was often left feeling like, why, whoa, why are we fighting? Why were you offended by that? You are clearly hurt and defensive and kind of counterattacking.

24:55And in the early days, you know, I would try to reason with him. I would cry and think, oh, if he sees how much he's hurting me, then he will realize what he's doing. That didn't matter. And then eventually I started fighting back. Well, fuck you. You know, if you're going to talk to me that way, then I'm going to punch back twice as hard. And surprise, none of those worked. So when he came back from rehab and started in with that old behavior, I had, was still in therapy, still working on myself and had enough growth, internal boundaries, backbone to just not engage. Got it. Not engage, not react.

25:58And then I watched him double down spin on his own have the argument with himself and I realized oh it's not it's not about me I am not a player in this game you'll have the fight all by yourself and so that's when I started to detach and kind of look at him with a sort of pity. And that was what led to the end. How much were the two of you living with this secret? Like, did people think you had a perfect, you were the perfect couple, like people think you're The perfect person? No. No. My friends have since told me that they didn't like the way he talked to me or treated me or there was something that my dad asked me multiple times before we got engaged.

27:02Is this the one? Are you sure? But I knew they weren't crazy about him. I'm sure they did sense something in him or in our relationship that they thought was unhealthy. I think they also, he was scary to them. He's 10 years older. He's from another country. And so I think they were afraid or felt like he was going to, and I guess to some extent he did kind of steal me away from them. And was there a part of you that wanted to get away from them? Yes. Can we talk about that? Yes. Years ago, I would have told you that I had the best childhood. My childhood was perfect. And so why wasn't my life going?

28:02What was wrong with me? I had the best family, the best childhood. And a previous therapist helped me see that she called it emotional enmeshment with my mother, who saw me as an extension of her, a little her. I was her best friend, her confidant, her therapist. She shared so much about why my dad was not a good husband. And they eventually got divorced shortly after I left high school. So I moved halfway across the country, I think, to get some breathing room. And my dad was also very controlling, authoritarian, rigid. and I ran away to have some space to find myself. And this relationship was the first big decision I made, not because I should or anybody else wanted me to, but because it's what I wanted.

29:29And then you went and recreated the same emotional enmeshment. yes yes you went with the attachment model that you knew yes okay i lived with a lot of shame through our relationship shame that i wasn't thriving doing enough for me shame that i was allowing behavior and treatment from him that I know my family and friends would not be okay with and since leaving I have addressed a lot of that I'm independent I have a thriving social circle. My life is filled with a lot of love and energy. And I still have a bit of shame about the way I feel about him. Like I shouldn't be curious. I shouldn't be loving.

30:40I shouldn't be wondering. I shouldn't be longing for him. If I really, if I am a strong, healthy, independent woman, I would not feel this way. Can I try something from the other side? Since you said, I live with parts of me, different voices, different pulls and pushes. And part of you says, if I was a really strong, independent woman, I would have none of these inclinations toward him. I would know better. And another part says, I am such a smart and strong woman. It cannot be that I made such a mistake, that I was so wrong in my judgment, that the one time I finally decide something that I want and not that I should or that everybody's expecting from me, it went all wrong.

31:44What if I knew something that nobody else knows?

31:51Yes. Yes. I do think I'm smarter than the average bear and I can't help but think there's something other people don't see. I've got some inside track here that I guess I haven't been able to explain to the people who love me. What's it like to hear me say it? Because you don't, you often voice that one out loud. it feels a little bit like ah you see it too and I have an immediate suspicion that there's a butt coming or or that it's foolish for me to think that that you are highlighting it so that I can hear how foolish that sounds that's not what I was thinking actually I often have a sense that when people commit to someone they are making an engagement with that person but I often find that they're also making a bargain with themselves this person will not lie to me will not cheat on me will abandon me this person will see what no one else has seen you know, I know something with an almost grandiose sense of confidence.

33:34I know something, the inside track that you're talking about. And what is hardest sometimes from people to disconnect with is less the person that they are leaving than the conviction that led them to that person.

33:56I have tried so hard. to let this go. I mean, I have drawn or tried to draw such a hard line with myself since I left. That is the past. That was not healthy. You cannot go back. The future is ahead of you, in front of you. There are other people. but you can say to me and to yourself that conviction i want to follow it i'll take the chances you know the first time you you left because you needed a root canal you know it's not what you wanted it's what you thought you should do and it's what other people wanted for you. This time, you'll see. If you stay, it'll be because you want and if you don't stay, it will actually be the real departure.

35:04You will maybe have to take on the next level of emancipation which is to tell yourself, your therapist, your friends, your family there's one more thing I need to do here that I know from the outside we look a reversal a regression a lack of awareness and that may all be true but you may say despite all of that I feel like I need to go and now that I know more what I want I want to go and decide this on my own and make that decision myself and that's a conversation for you with your therapist too so that you don't feel like I'm sneaking. I'm sneaking behind. You don't owe anybody. I mean, in your mind, I'm sure you think, these people all helped me leave, and now all they're going to want is to hold me back.

36:00They see me plunge into the same cesspool, etc. But maybe you need a different leaving. See, your question is about, can there be a new start? And that's a possibility. but I want to add to it, and can there be a different kind of living?

36:23You don't have to decide a thing right now. You just have to watch two people come back in a conversation with a whole different level of accountability. When people come back and all they say is, I'm sorry, the first question to ask is, for what? how much do they actually see and have taken in and taken stock and taken responsibility for their contribution to what happened how much do they see who they were in the relationship and what they did to just say i'm sorry not enough to just talk about behaviors not enough patterns not enough but the deep sense of understanding clarity responsibility accountability that's where it starts yeah but the issue of the secret is important because part of it is vis-a-vis him the other part is vis-a-vis your entourage and your world to whom you say I need to know what I know in some way if I continue to just do what you all want me to do, I stay in the same pattern in which I grew up in.

37:42I continue to be compliant and resentful rather than independent and accountable. Do you understand? Yes, yes, yes.

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38:44Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.