Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?

0:00Hi Esther, I'm 41 years old and I'm calling with a personally heart-wrenching case of should I stay or should I go? In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years, he and I met on a sort of casual dating app and went into it very casually. I learned that he is married and that he and his wife were are no longer sexual or romantic in that way. But they are living together, share a bed. They co-parent an eight year old boy, just like I do with my ex-husband, with whom I do not share a bed. And she is very open and encouraging of all of this. And never in one million years would I have seen myself making my way into this kind of a dynamic.

1:02But this gentleman and I have very strong feelings for each other. And he and I go on dates every week to two weeks. And they're absolutely incredible from our chemistry as friends and humans. not to mention that I'm having the best sex of my life like full stop and he is emotionally secure and available to me in a way that I've frankly never had in 41 years I also have been stuck in these endless questions all the time because there's a big part of me that does love being single. Like when I first got divorced, I'll never forget that feeling of I can do what I want. I can be who I want to be.

1:57And yet I crave that idea of stability in marriage again. And it's this constant push and pull. And I don't even know if I would want to be married to him. And yet it does not prevent some real pain, some real pain that I feel around feeling like just jealous, you know, of he and his wife or partner who is lovely. I would just so, so appreciate and love the chance to talk through this with you. So thank you so much for listening.

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3:38I think what's very strange to me about all of this that I mentioned is that I would never have imagined myself getting sort of entangled in something like this. I've always, when I've been on the apps and seen these ethically non-monogamous people, you know, like I always don't swipe on those people because it seems complicated. And something I don't want to get caught up in. And he did not list himself that way, but he was very honest when we met. And they're not sexual, right? So he's sexually monogamous with me, and that has been how my brain has been able to sort of make this work, right?

4:20Meaning how, tell me how you put the puzzle together. So I feel like there's something special that we have together, and I realize that that could very much be the case with or without him having sex with other people. but it protects some element of it for me where I feel like he is committed to me, you know? And sometimes I think it's so silly because he's also married and he's sleeping in the same bed with his wife but they are not sexual. So he has family monogamy with her and sexual monogamy with you. Yes. Yes. and it's tied up in a lot. It's tied up in like, I think jealous, there's just a raw jealousy that I think a lot of people in these relationships with multiple parties happens to them, but then there's also this.

5:25But your jealousy is about the monogamy of his family, that they come first, that you cannot enter into that space, that tell me a little bit what the arrangement is so far and what is the jealousy? Because it can be about something very precise, right? So I very much relate to his family coming first. So I also have an eight-year-old and divorced. And it's funny because the last person I dated didn't have children and he totally did not understand, like my kid comes above all else. so that I very much relate to. I get jealous thinking of them sleeping in the same bed, he and his wife. Okay, so that's talking.

6:13Yeah, and also their general family life because I don't have it. And it's not that I don't have it with him, but it's that I don't have it, you know. So, yeah. So when I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have. Yeah. Sorry. No, nothing to apologize for. That part is very raw for me. Mm-hmm. and this whole side that is there and gets tied up in what is really a beautiful thing in many ways. What is your arrangement with the father of your child? We are good friends, actually. We were friends for many years, and then we got married, had a child, and very quickly had our first fight that became the reason we got divorced.

7:29Which was? You made that one fight stand out so special that I couldn't resist being curious about it. It was over sleep training with our son, and it was something very small. but I realized I had never sort of stood ground and had been contorting myself honestly to prevent any and all conflict in our relationship you know there had never been conflict and I sort of just stood my ground and there was a complete unraveling and he wanted a divorce and it was so crazy. But we both instantly flipped into, we're putting our son first. And thankfully my ex-husband had the context of his parents having divorced when he was young and did a really good job of putting him first.

8:28It's very fluid. Like our son has never known anything different and I'm very proud of that. but it's also another one of these things where I do like spending Christmas with my son and his dad. And sometimes when I play out this idea, well, what if I were with somebody full-time monogamous again? That would be hard, right? I mean, some people might not like that. Would it be fair to say when I am with the father of my child and my son and we are in family mode, there is no jealousy. When I'm alone, then I start to think about the family that my partner has. And then I start to think that is what I miss.

9:25because in fact you do have a family life. I don't feel that because there is some suppressed emotional pain around my divorce that I just don't surface. And yeah, I feel like other people's intimacy is just hard for me because I'm not intimate with anybody. so

9:59I'm sorry I didn't realize these tears just let them flow let them flow let them stream down I'm not intimate with anybody yeah yeah I have a very small like extended family where my dad I'm estranged from my dad which was a complicated situation. He was emotionally abusive to our family, my sister and I growing up, and have a good relationship with my mom, but it has its limits. Both daughters are estranged from him? Mm-hmm. For how long? Eight years, right before my son was born, right after I got married. That was a pretty crazy year. But he basically blew up our lives. He and my mom had been married for 40 years, and he came home one day and said, I want a divorce.

11:01And he emptied out their bank accounts and left her with nothing. We found out he'd been doing all these horrible things, leading a double life, basically. And in hindsight, I think he was really kind of a sociopath. I don't think he had empathy. And I spent my whole life trying to get his approval. You know, it was very much the perfect type A child. And my sister was the older, rebellious one who he treated worse, you know, but he played us off each other. It was just a really tough childhood. I mean, not as tough as a lot of people's, but unpacking it as an adult, it was very eye-opening to me.

11:58I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple years ago, and I was like, no. I thought I was over all that.

12:10It's here. If you're, what do you call him, partner, boyfriend, lover? Lover. We call each other lovers. Okay. If your lover heard you say, I am not intimate with anyone, how would he respond? He would probably put his hand on his heart and it would make him sad. Because you're right, I am intimate with him. He's the only person that I really am intimate with. Beyond sexuality. Yeah. He's the first man that I've ever had difficult feelings around that has been able to sustain it where it hasn't blown up because I had a meltdown or challenged something that was going on or made things difficult.

13:11For example?

13:16Well, this situation has been very hard for me. Like, grappling with these feelings of jealousy with his wife. And I feel like I will have these sort of outbursts, you know. And I don't necessarily get angry, but I do unravel. And I'm like, I can't handle this. And sometimes I do contort it into something. Like, you don't even want me anyway. and, you know, just blow up. And I assume that it's gone and he's gone because that's how it's gone in my relationships. And I'm very conscious of that with the men in my life. And he just keeps coming back for more like a golden retriever. He's just there, you know, and he's like, that must be so hard.

14:10and so it makes it like in many ways so wonderful right I feel like it's so good for me to be with somebody that

14:24allows me to experience jealousy even envy because one is for what we had and have lost and the other one is for what we've never had or not never but what we don't have, but also experience the insecurity that it's not what you have. It's how it instantly connects to what I feel I don't have. And so because I don't have one thing, I experience it as, well, then I better have nothing. because if I can turn it into I'll be the one to set this up to end then at least I feel a little bit more in control I don't feel in control over the relationship as it is but I can be in control over the dissolution of the relationship and he doesn't let you play with that no okay and you have fixated on they share a bed, they share a bed, they share a bed And that becomes that image that you interpret as they have intimacy, they have something I don't have.

15:41You can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together. Talk to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them. You're telling me who he is for you. I don't know much about her. I don't know if your children have ever met. I don't know if this is a marriage also, not just of a marriage, a coming together, more accurately, of two people or of two units. What is the arrangement? What is your relational arrangement at this point? And is it by default or is it actually by design?

16:21So there was no crossing for quite a while. We met quite casually through this app, and I don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed. And he presented himself as? As married and described a situation that is he and his wife are wonderful partners and very good friends. They lost the sexual spark at some point and decided to stay together and co-parent and raise their child in their home. And both of them have a separate erotic life. She didn't for some time, it sounded like, but now she does. and I had not met her for a long time. And eventually she said she wanted to meet me.

17:25And so we had coffee together. Old three or old two? Just me and her. And I was like, if this is not progress against my anxious attachment style, I don't know what is.

17:41I had this whole idea of her in my mind. And, you know, I've done this whole, the ways that she's different than me. She's like the perfect homemaker. And I'm not. And, you know, all this stuff. And instantly was just disarmed by her. She's also totally warm and genuine and cool. And I could see that everything was very honestly, she was like, this is so great. Like he's in such a great mood all the time. He is crazy about you. We're so happy to have you in our lives. I went to their holiday party like a month or two ago, which was hard.

18:30But also this other weird part of me is like, what if like I was just a part of this fabric? Like, maybe this did, I mean, do I have this in me to be one of these crazy people that, I shouldn't say crazy people, like, securely attached people that can flex in relationships. And she was so happy to have me there, you know? So, I don't, you know, he doesn't talk about their relationship. I think he's very, you know, protective of that. And I appreciate that. and I don't know what the future holds in store for them. But it's like the jealousy, the raw jealousy and insecurity it brings out is so present.

19:32We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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21:13May I meet the part of you that speaks that insecurity? How does it relate to you? How does it tell its story? How does it warn you? How does it turn opportunity into threat? Tell me what it says and what it is trying supposedly to preempt for you. imagine it's sitting right next to you so it's not inside of you it's actually on the chair next to you jealousy I don't know, do you have a name for it sometimes?

22:00I don't have a name for it the jealousy is so hard to pinpoint Okay, so you enter into me. And I feel under threat. I am in like fight or flight. All right, hold on one moment because you're still talking to me. Turn around and pick something, any object that you can place to represent jealousy. Just look on your shelves. And then just bring it toward you. Like physically bring it? Yeah. Yeah, go get it.

22:51All right, can you show me? Okay, I chose my Lego lucky cap. All right. And the reason you represent my jealousy is because... Anything, any connection? No, it just felt like it just was drawn to it for some reason. We're going to make it lucky. Okay. Maybe it'll be memorable that way. I thought, like, if I need a mental talisman. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. you don't have to look at me but I want you to talk to actually it's less you talking to the jealousy first it's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you, how it fills you what it does what it tries to preempt for you what threats it predicts what yeah oh you know that part so well I'm thinking about it right now and if I'm talking to my jealousy right now it's or your jealousy is talking to you the jealousy talks to me yeah what does it say it's very mean it's very mean

24:16it tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one and that I should get out while I'm ahead but it also tells me that that's very powerful that's what I deserve and that is heartbreaking to me you know deserve as in you're not good enough to be, it starts to attack and erode your sense of self-worth. Yes. And that is what I have been primed for. You know, like that was my dad's uncanny ability to come in any moment. And I started to feel good about myself and take me down.

25:18which honestly comes up for me, Esther. Like, I think this negative self-talk, this, like, when I'm being really mean to myself, I can almost hear him. And then I think, I don't want to let him win, you know. Like, this is not serving me in any way. Who the hell do you think you are? That kind of berating? For some reason, it's standing out to me right now, this thing he said to me one time. When I was a teenager, he told me I was the last person anyone ever wanted to see walk into a room.

26:01And I sometimes feel like I just walk around feeling like that. And I am such an otherwise intelligent person that I can conceptually understand so much. You know, I mean, I probably would win an award for the number of hours of Pema Chodron talks I've listened to. But don't ask me to practice self-compassion, okay? it's like I it's powerful it's like feels it's in my body you know and so then you go like am I fighting something that I am never gonna beat or am I making it too hard for myself by trying to do this work so you know I had a wicked thought. May I just share it with you? Because everything is kind of moshed together.

27:08Are you still holding it in your hand? Jealousy? Good. Keep holding it. You see, in a model of plural love, primary or secondary doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning. primary worth more secondary worth less it's not a rating system it's an organizational structural idea with your dad interestingly you were number one in fact your sister was number one on the attack line your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good

27:54you were his number one both of you and he was firing away you know estrangement is a is a drastic radical decision eight years so we can't go into the details of that but i get it doesn't happen out of nothing so you have been number one your idea of this fairy tale that the number one is an elevated state is actually not what has been your life experience. There is a way of thinking about relationships that is organized around exclusiveness. And then you demarcate what makes this relationship by what it doesn't allow, but what it doesn't allow in. It excludes the other stuff and that's what defines it.

28:57And so then you are the only one. And then there's another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness. Not exclusiveness, but specialness. And in that one, you're never the only one necessarily but whatever you are is special in its own way. So you go to this party and these people receive you. You may not like the arrangement. You may say, I don't like complicated setups or multiple setups. That's design. And then you say, that's not for me. But then it doesn't come from a place of self-loading, of being in this relationship is proof that I will not be claimed, that nobody will choose me as their first, as their one and only, and that it is because I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room.

30:01So there's a kind of a mixing of two stories here. One that was indeed exclusive, but vicious, and one that is special but somehow activates this notion that if I'm not the only one, if I'm not the primary one, it's not because we have something else that ties us together. It's because you don't want to do that with me. Yes. Is that a fair description? It really is. and it's a story that is not reflected really in the situation you know like I mentioned this in my message that I don't even know if we would be right together as being married or that's not what I even fantasize about really it's weird I mean he would be a wonderful partner and husband.

31:10Absolutely. But it's more just this ambiguous, here's a reason to feel bad about myself. But then I, there's so many great things about it, like that I've mentioned to you from a emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through. and then also just the joy of developing some intimacy with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life and it's funny because I've tried to talk about this to some married friends they'll be like wow that is you've got to get out of that like run don't walk like you must be miserable half the time and like this is the recipe for disaster and then I'm like well how is marriage going because marriage is really hard too you know and you gotta get out of what what is being reinforced that indeed you're a side gig mm-hmm yeah I think that's how they frame it and from the outside I can kind of see that but that's not how he makes me feel or frankly how she makes me feel his wife I feel like they want to bring me into their fold you know and he makes me feel very special he's the first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable just like openly complimenting me in this way that is so disarming to me you know we'll just be kissing or something and he'll sit back and be like you are so beautiful and I don't know what to do with it and I realized I wasn't getting that before from other people.

33:20Well, what you do with that is first and foremost, you savor it. Yeah. Then you decide, how important is this? It's an important experience for me to have in a relationship. It doesn't define a decision. Yes. Okay. my question to you is do you feel like you need to make a decision or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision because you started out by saying you know shall i stay or shall i go and i'm listening to you telling me i'm caught between two stories two ways to interpret my reality. That's it. In one version, I experience myself as basically I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement.