Are You Abandoning Me or Am I Suffocating You?

0:00Hi Esther, this is Michael. And this is Tyler. And we're trying to figure out how to do our conflict dance different. We're twins, we're 31. I experience some of what happens in our conflict as smothering. And I experience it as abandoned. and we're trying to find a different way to work through this because it usually gets quite frustrating and there's a lot of times where I go radio silent or I don't know what happens on your end. I get anxious and reach out. And so we are still struggling to kind of manage this paradox as you usually put it. And we're willing to talk about it. Yeah. We're both social workers.

0:51So that may affect some of this. Right. We might be intellectualizing a lot of stuff. So if you come back to us, that'd be great. We are open and ready whenever you are. Thanks. Thanks.

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2:41Nice to meet you too. How did we find ourselves here? Well, we listened to you a lot, separately and together. And I really appreciate your insight. And this relationship here is like the one that is the most precious to me and to both of us, I think. and it's fraught with old things that at least both of us want to work on. And who had the idea of working on it with me? That's a good question. I don't remember. Did you start? I think you did start, Michael. Yes, on a whim. So I applied on a whim. and the whim said, gosh, I want to deal with what? What was the whim? How I experience it is the operatic feelings behind our disconnection.

3:48At one point, when we went off to university, it was the first time we separated in a big way. Besides moving to another room when we were in fifth grade and doing separate extracurricular activities. And the feelings have remained the same, even though we've worked on our relationship a bunch, but the feelings behind that separation have stayed there. And they are feelings of what for you? For me, resentment sometimes.

4:29Mostly resentment. because I've often felt trapped in Tyler's expectations of wanting to remain in contact with one another all the time. Not all the time, but pretty often. Sometimes within a 24-hour period. And sometimes that's stifling. Not all the time. So your reaction to his pursuit of you is, I need more space? Yeah. And your reaction of him is? Yeah, resentment. I think it's a similar feeling. Okay. I feel abandoned. I'm the pursuer and he's the pull away. often. Let's qualify. This has always been the model. This is recent. How would you say? It's always felt eternal, I think, because of our setup as children.

5:44Which was? So when we were born, we were born three months premature, and I had a touch of cerebral palsy that affected my left leg. So I got a lot of medical attention until I was 10 years old. And Michael, when we were born, had holes in his heart and lungs and was flown to Boston Children's. And so I got a lot of attention because I had a lot of need. And Michael was both closeted and I think gave a lot to me. I remember it as like watching him walk. And so I got to learn how to walk well. So you got ongoing attention and he got acute attention? That's a good way to put it. Acute. How so? Like when attention was on me, it was like for a period of time and it was big.

6:46But it wasn't every night the way that we had to take care of you. yeah so when you say I've been the pursuer is there a connection between that and I watched him walk and I learned how to walk I've never made that connection as in he was always ahead of me he was always in front of me more than ahead of me baby but in front of me and I was trying to meet him to catch up with him yeah yeah i i physically and otherwise yeah yeah even when michael came out that was a big moment because i was resentful i was like you had lied to me i think that was like the first words out of my mouth when he came out which is horrible and i'm still so sorry i imagine you've had time to rectify that one we've we've talked about Yeah.

7:50And there was a period of time and probably still some like where I'm like, man, I really wish I was gay as well. Because in so many ways, he was to me the model of like what it meant to be a human. Yeah. Like a full human. Were you the first person he told to? No. And that was a piece for you that you thought you were more special and he would come to you first? Mm-hmm. I'm looking at your face. Michael. It's not how I experienced it, you know, because you were the most important. And so... That's why you didn't go to him first. Yeah, I needed to audition it with my parents first. And then you were the next.

8:41your parents poured themselves into each of you as soon as you were born right? yeah yeah they were so loving are so loving my mother said she was born to be a mother and I can only imagine that was heightened after she learned that she was going to have twins so we both have experienced it as very wonderful our childhoods but a lot of pressure because of it I think pressure as in what get straight A's be the perfect children don't fall out of line do the thing that's expected of you you are a miracle yeah live by your title miracle has been a word that's been used not just by our mother but by like both sets of grandparents when they were alive

9:40but what you're telling me if I understand is that you have mostly been described in the first pronoun plural a we and your challenge at this moment is how can you amplify the I I think it's both We have been a we for so long. We've explored our individual lives a bit. And now we're trying to, I think, come back together somehow. I'm married. He lives in another city. We've got different lives. But when we do get together, it takes a bumpy period to get back into connection with one another. And honestly, I think both of us just wish we could do away with the bumpy part. describe me the bumps who visits who I visit him usually and that's a part of the bump yes acknowledged it was more acknowledged maybe when we were younger like I would go see him in college and I would be like why aren't you visiting me more like you don't care about me that kind of thing but now it comes in the form of why didn't you get back to me right away what was going on and so I have to explain oh I was doing the dishes or whatever I went to bed earlier or I was watching a movie or whatever and I'm here I'm here now with you so we've tried to make it a steady thing of talking once a week but sometimes even that on my end I perceive that you think that that's not enough so the bumps have something to do with scheduling and something to do with...

11:36Unrequited hunger. Yeah. It's not as amplified when I'm in a relationship, which is also a lot of pressure on my partner, I think, because the hunger is directed towards them instead of him. And I experience it almost as a relief sometimes, but then he's with a new woman, I don't know, pretty often. so then it's not a relief that lasts. And you're saying when I have a girlfriend, I transfer that need onto her. So he gets... Yeah, I think it's more recently not as much, but yeah, I think it's still there. You experience your relationships often as kind of love bombing, yeah? It's like big and fast and wild.

12:37That's kind of scared me. You know, those feelings, if they're that intense so quickly, I'm like, oh, it's not going to work. but if I understand something as long as you are experiencing your hunger and your pursuit primarily with your brother you can say it's because my brother is distant it's because my brother doesn't show it's because my brother is responsive but not initiating it's because my brother holds his distance. But once you start to experience it on a regular basis with your girlfriends, then you begin to say, maybe my hunger is my hunger, not in response to a specific person, but in response to a specific relationship, which usually involves deep intimacy, trust, connection and where I which I feel with my twin and which I feel in my romantic relationships and something inside of me is left unsatiated yeah is that that's right it's hard to like disconnect my hunger from yeah Michael until I see that in that relationship but then I don't know yeah Michael's like an easy scapegoat and I've tried to figure out how to navigate those feelings through my own therapy with my therapist so I still don't have a good place for them what do you know about them how have you made sense of them for you why is it that I often feel left hungry somewhat lonely as if I do all the work if I wasn't pursuing I wouldn't necessarily hear from them or really infrequently I have to work so hard to be loved yeah so far it's desperation is like the understanding that I have of it like this intense need from something outside of myself, it seems that I seek out some attention or excitement because originally with Michael, I thought that looking at somebody, I got a lot of validation that I existed.

15:26And then without it, I feel empty. but I'm still seeking this excitement and that's boring the emptiness is boring and so far I've labeled the desperation as bad or the boredom as bad does that make sense? I feel like I'm jumbling my thoughts do you want him to interpret you? see what he understands? Michael usually does how do you understand what he just said? When you feel lonely, what rushes in most is boredom. When you feel that boredom, you want to do something with it, get into a relationship or make poetry or do something big with it. What I'm hearing, and this is maybe totally off, but something in the way you spoke made me wonder, do you feel legit?

16:34Sometimes when we, for whatever reason, don't really feel legit, like we have a right to be here, we seek legitimization through the way that other people relate to us. They make us feel worthy. They make us feel deserving. They make us feel lovable. And it's not because you were not loved, because your mom and dad seem to have showered you both. But there's something, maybe in the 10 years of treatment, medical attention. It's like when you get so much medical attention, you don't get personal attention. Even though, supposedly, you get personal attention, but it's... Well, I was a problem to fix.

17:22Yeah. Okay. that was the implicit message that I got yeah you were a problem to fix or you were an adored child who had some problems that needed help yeah that's the struggle it's hard for me to connect to that go ahead Michael you seem to want to say something yeah I want to understand why you feel it so deeply. Like the first thing you say is abandoned, you know, it's a big, deep thing. And when we were having, you know, when I was like helping you with your leg and stretching it with you or whatever, it wasn't cause like you were a problem. It was cause it was like, Oh, it's kind of fun. It made me feel useful a little bit, but that's not really how I interpreted it as a kid.

18:21it was more like oh this is just spending time and it didn't feel like a problem so i want to know how where it turned into you feeling like a problem like there's something about the language of like illegitimate as a human that that resonates because i'm hearing you say that and knowing that that's real for you but not connecting like whatever i was as a kid like as an identity to that like i can see dad setting up electrodes on my leg and like the cast but i don't feel like a like a personal connection to it so when you're saying like this is an enjoyable experience for me i'm not like i don't feel the experience of it does that make sense and abandoned like I think that's just a feeling like like it's not that deep to me

19:29we have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes

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23:24Say more about the problem, because the word is very loaded, and it seems to still linger when you pursue him as well. And then it enters into your mutual resentments. You, because you feel that he's not there for you, and he, because he feels that no matter how much he will be there, it won't ever be enough. You're shaking your head. So, and either of you like it and you adore each other and that's there too. But every time you pursue him, part of you is angry at him for not responding sooner. And part of you is disappointed with yourself for pursuing him. Yeah. I didn't know that. That second part.

24:19because every time he pursues you and it's unrequited the problem grows it's an instant disidentifier from me what do you mean like i don't say i experienced my childhood like that's not the first narrative that comes up it's i had an issue and therefore i was taken care of and so my issue was the thing that experienced my childhood does that make sense i'm a little confused i'm still trying to answer your question of like talk about the problem you can actually i can invite the part of you that defines itself as the problem to speak for itself it has a very clear voice it's okay

25:20it's hard to speak Michael you don't know me as well but let me introduce myself I am

25:36I'm confused a lot and I feel like I don't want to be a burden to you but I do feel that way and I want I want you to be proud of me and like seen as your your equal and it isn't just you it's also dad and mom it feels weird to like be a problem because you have your own life and your own problems like and I feel like I've taken up too much space

26:27yeah I think I'm I'm like shame but I've never spoken with my heart. I wish I could fix it. I wish I could make you feel better. I can't. And I love you. And I can't tell you a billion times how much I don't feel that you are a burden to me. I only have compassion, you know. And I have problems, but you have yours too. It's okay. You're not mutually exclusive. I kind of want to hear more of this more often. You don't often hear him speak like this? Not like in himself, in the problem. It's more, why weren't you there? It's more of a blaming, but of putting that thing, that problem outside of himself.

27:28Then it gets a little confusing, like you started by saying, I'm so open to hearing it really because I can't do anything about it all I can do is listen I've never had the language I think I didn't realize that I've been separating a problem from myself I think if I were able to identify with the problem more I wouldn't feel like I'd need to run to Michael or get resentful but to speak with my problem I have some empathy for myself where did it fit for you Michael?

28:24I guess I would worry less about you and know that you can do it all not all on your own, but this part can be not put on me and it would free me up a bit to be like, yeah, what's he doing? I'm not going to anticipate a phone call where it's going to be like, okay, I have to take care of him. And I can just pick up and talk and it won't be a big deal. so part of what you are resisting is that you experience when he reaches out to you that they become caretaking missions yeah and that he on occasion asks you how you are but that's not really the focus of it's pretty equal it's really just about that initial picking up the phone.

29:28Okay. So it's a fear, but it's not really what happens. You anticipate burden, weight, responsibility, freight, but it's not actually what happens? Sometimes it is. It does happen. Often it doesn't, you know, but I think, yes, most often I'm thinking, oh, what am I going to have to deal with? help with now? Yeah. Yeah. Which I know it's not true. It's just the way it feels. It sounds like you're asking yourself before you get on the phone, am I dealing with Tyler or am I dealing with the problem? Like if we're going to use that language, who's speaking to me here? yeah immediately if we get on the phone you say how are you and i'm like i'm good i know you want a specific response that's going to be emotional so that then you get emotional that then we can both get emotional then we can mirror each other then we get you know like that's it and i'm like i i just want to pick up the phone and say hey how are you good good great what was going on cool let's play a game you know it doesn't have to be that fear that i have which is just this like tight knot which reinforces me feeling this like resent like well how do i pick up the phone then i'm not always gonna feel happy or like some days i don't know i think it's no but if it's most often coming from a place of a of i feel abandoned it's gonna feel like a big heavy conversation regardless of if that's a big feeling or not.

31:11The word was loaded. It is, how can I not respond emotionally? Because that's quite emotional language, you know. Is that the greeting? It's, hi, how are you? What? No, it's like, how are you feeling? And then I come with a feeling thing and it's like this thing that wasn't there for so long. And it only started when you became a therapist so that we can get to these deep crux issues and i'm like why does it have to be issues that we're talking about that is not all the time but like i guess it's the fear i have of like how it might be all the time

31:56sorry well i mean there's a reason we both became therapists and that like the therapy room especially has been for me not something of like of i've been working on like this isn't a problem to fix you know like you don't always have to come to therapy to have to be a problem to have a problem so that when i ask how do you how are you feeling it doesn't have to mean let's talk about the problem and yours seems well i don't need to like be upset with you but but you bring levity to the room. And obviously it's more complicated than that. And you give more than that. You're your own therapist. Can I circle back to something you said before?

32:48Because I make a big distinction between I have a problem and I am a problem. Or what I sense that you were alluding to before is I was a burden. and I sometimes thought their lives would be easier if this burden wasn't there. And at the same time, I got so much attention because I had my challenges and I had some serious health concerns. And so I didn't learn that I can get attention by just being light and fun and playful. That's his script. and then you said something about talking from your heart and not from your resentment but more from a feeling of shame and then you kind of departed from that again and you went back to your usual scripts and it's very important for me to see them but part of why we're here is because you both are getting tired of your usual scripts You can role play each other and you'll be perfect to the teeth of what the other person says, feels, and breathes.

34:07Yeah. But the problem was talking actually with a fair amount of kindness before. And I just want to invite it back. and we are just using this word because it's the one that you uttered before and we can name it anything we want you want thank you it's an invitation for both of you to go inside of you rather than do the protective I'm gonna blame you and that's for both of you by the way

34:50it's not going to make us cry I like often want to thank you for protecting me like you reaching out to do this or speaking first because I don't know how to express myself and I admire you for that

35:17protecting you from social interactions. I keep thinking about, you know, kind of hiding behind Michael when we were kids because I didn't know I'd be judged or hurt. When you're saying invite us to talk about some place from inside of us, I immediately want to say, like, Like, I miss being children together. It's something I mourn most often. And I miss the lightness of it because I did experience it as something light that I could just draw you out and easily make you laugh and we could just kind of giggle for a long time. And when I go inside with you, like if we're around each other, I experienced such life you know like such vitality such fun you know and I most often want to give that to you give that to us you know because it's just so nice to connect there I would love to do that with you and like for you to bring that to me too you know

36:39We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

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