Burdens of the Family

0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

0:26This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence. It may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

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2:06Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. The initial request of this couple surrounded his recent infidelity. I found out he was cheating on me with someone online. I was looking for excitement, things that really distracted me from what I was experiencing at home. But the thing that immediately became clear is that for almost a decade, as a Hmong couple, they fought to be a couple. I knew that I had met, like, the love of my wife. And then I was like, I can't be with him because it's a huge taboo. In our community, it's forbidden for clans to marry within the same clan. So in me and my wife's case, we're from the same clan, but we're not from the same family.

2:59it got to the point where it's like, well, we're not related anyways. Fuck it, let's just be together. So it was an uproar among all my families. For so long, they stood united against the opposition. And then when they were finally together, the opposition became between them. Chronic, constant bickering. She only saw things from her side, and I only saw things from my side. I mean, that's when I just kind of lost it. I was like, man, you know what? I'm just going to go out and talk to these girls and see if I can get my mind off things and figure out whether or not I made the right choice to marry this girl.

3:40Okay. So every time you get mad at me, you're going to cheat on me, or you're going to go download Messenger app and find some random person to talk to to make you happy?

3:57Is everybody here because they want to be here? Yeah, I think. Yes. Yeah, of course. Normally, when we talk to each other, we don't really say the things we want to. So I think this will bring us closer together. That's a very nice wish. I would imagine. I wouldn't imagine saying that, but yes. I saw your face, that's why. When did your parents or your grandparents come? They came in the 70s. They came here during the Vietnam War. They escaped the war and that was it. I don't really know the details. My dad, he never had a job. He went to school. Very poor. How old was he when he came here? I think he was 15, maybe 16.

4:53What influence do you think your father's experience had on you?

5:01He's very kind. He's very funny. He doesn't really shout. He doesn't speak up. And I think I picked that side up from him. So he arrives at 15. He meets my mom. They are married here. And I was born here. They stayed together? No. Okay. And you stayed with? So me and my brother stayed with my dad. And my youngest brother and my sister stayed with my mom. So she wanted the girl and the baby. and then my dad was like okay well if you want those two I'll just take the other two the oldest and the third so how did that work out it was hard I felt like I was kind of betrayed a little bit by my mom because I was the first and the oldest it was heartbreaking but how old were you I was maybe seven or eight Yeah.

6:14It's kind of funny because... No, it wasn't funny. Because she wasn't always... It wasn't funny. Well, now that I think back about it, yeah, it wasn't funny, but she'd always joke about, like, yo, you're my oldest. I love you forever. You know, my son, blah, blah, this and that. But when she chose my sister and my younger brother, it was kind of like, kind of broke me. Yeah. Is that the first time your heart was broken? Yeah. The first time. We don't forget that time? No. I still remember that day. That she left? Mm-hmm. My mom and dad in two different cars. My sister and brother in one car and me and my brother in one car.

7:10and we just drove away. Oh my God.

7:16You're saying it when you say it, right? Yeah. Yeah.

7:24So you lost your mother very young. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Does she know that? I don't think so. I told my wife that me and my mom, we don't really talk and and we're never on good terms anyway, so she's never a part of my life. But she's such a huge part of your life, your internal life. She is, and I think about her a lot, but, you know, I'm at a point where, like, I have my own family to worry about now. Yeah, but the way you will worry about your own family carries the story that's inside of you, too. and you have a lot to talk to each other but you're not but look how she's listening to you she's crying with you

8:20we don't really share stories because I don't talk about this why not because it hurts yeah it hurts and um you just don't like to bring up the past but you know it's just a way of me trying to be strong but does it work no thank you sometimes it does sometimes it does but mostly it does because it does live inside of you and because you do think about it a lot and because if you actually did share some of it, it would have a place rather than underground powers. You're a whole different person when you talk about all of this and she has no way of experiencing it or appreciating it for that matter.

9:18What you think is strong, which is to avoid all your feelings and circumvent them, there's not much strength to that. Hmm. Never thought about it that way, but... But you carry... Tell me if I hear that well. You carry inside of you your kind, gentle, warm and funny father. And then you carry inside of you... How do you carry mom inside of you? I don't know. I don't think I'm anything like my mom, to be honest. too kind and too caring. You're not too. You can take the too out of it. There is no too kind. That's a crazy talk. Yeah, that's true. You're kind and you're caring. And you can say it without reservation.

10:15Okay. And who is your family? There are eight of us in total. There's five girls, three boys. And you are number? I am number four. I'm the middle child, or one of the middle children. My parents divorced, and they fight. Like, all I've known them to, just bickering, fighting, physically fighting. and so when I was 18, I guess my mom was just taught my dad cheating and then he was just like, why are you going through my shit? Blah, blah, blah. And he got violent and they're just yelling. The violence, the physical violence was mainly between the parents or it was everybody? Oh, it was everybody, but you know, like when I did bad stuff growing up, like you learn how to dodge.

11:14but my parents were physically abusive to each other, mostly my dad, and then really abusive to us. Growing up, I witnessed my grandparents beat my aunts for going out too late. My uncles put holes in the walls. Oh, my God. So, yeah. So that night when I decided that it was enough, it was enough, I went downstairs to stop the fighting. I went to protect my mom and my younger brother. Pushed my dad out of the way. I called 911. And everyone's like, who called the cops? Who called the cops? I'm like, I don't care. I'm protecting my mom.

11:59That, I believe it was that summer, or it was soon, I decided I'm leaving. I'm moving out. It wasn't until, like, later I get to call my mom. And my mom's like, where are you? I'm like, I moved out. You're a double child. You're the worst child I have. She's like, don't you ever call me for anything. Don't you ever call me.

12:26What is immediately apparent here is that this is not just a story of parents who abandoned their children, but also a larger story of intergenerational trauma of a few generations connected to the war in Vietnam, connected to the refugee experience coming to the United States, and that this transmission is both emotional and psychological, but also exists on a cellular level.

13:00You have a short marriage. You're a young family. You have a two-year-old. But you have a long history. And the history starts not just when you're born. The history starts when your grandparents arrive. The history starts with how all these people intersect with each other. The history starts when your mom abandons you and when your mom abandons you, just after you try to actually save her. And a very outspoken person with a very kind person have a lot to learn from each other. The kind person, he calls himself kind, but what he's trying to say is that he doesn't always stand up for himself. but he meets and marries a woman who does stand up for herself and pays a very heavy price for it but will do it.

13:59And then from the kind of violent, destructive family that you come to have him be so gentle is a kind of a relief to your nervous system. And now the challenge is how you're going to make those goodies give you the life and the marriage that you want to have. So where does your infidelity play into that story? Does it have anything to do with all what we've talked about or it's yet another story? Um, my infidelity comes in after a long time of bearing a lot of weight. over the years things have started to almost plateau we don't talk much we whenever we do talk about certain things we tend to disagree and with disagreement comes frustration misunderstanding makes me question whether or not I'm in the right place in this marriage So in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, I need to, maybe I need to start branching out.

15:24So I started talking to this girl and she just like, you know, say hi, how are you doing? What's your plan for tonight? It got to the point where we were calling each other like names, like babe and honey and all that stuff. Because she was very flirty. I was very flirty too. and I thought it was kind of fun to get those kind of messages because it made me feel kind of appreciated or wanted. Here's somebody who's not yelling at me whenever I come up with an idea or someone that we just say hey good morning honey how are you hope you have a good day. Little messages like that kind of made me feel good.

16:07But, you know, I knew I messed up because I mean, you told me you saw all these messages, right? And she's like, why are you guys calling each other babe? And then I just told her, yeah, you know, I'm talking to this lady online. And then that's what happened. And now do you ask her in the morning? Hi, honey. How are you? Good morning. Yep. Every now and then I would say good morning. Why is it every now and then? I'm not a morning person. It doesn't matter what I'm saying. If you understood that being nice and warm and friendly is very endearing, why don't you do it with your wife? You're upset that she's not doing it with you, but you're giving her the same...

16:56Yeah. It's like me trying to say those kind of things from... like genuinely wanting to say those kind of things. And so I can't just say, hey, good morning, honey, how are you doing? Because in bed, I'm like, no, I don't want to wake up. I'm not ready for this day. And not having to worry about, oh, hey, honey, how are you doing? Good morning. I'm missing something. If you want things to be better at home, the charming person that chats online has to also come home on occasion. Yeah. This woman is nice to you because she gets a different kind of guy than this woman. If you want her to also be softer and kinder to you, you have to be more available to her in that way as well.

18:03Obviously, you're tired for your family, but you're not tired for your games or for your chats. So you have the energy. Why? Because we get energized. When it's fun and playful and we get attention, it's energizing. Yeah, it's a good point. But if you brought 10 % of that energy and playfulness and charm home, you'd get something back too. Yeah.

18:36This is something that comes up very often. This idea that there are two different people, the partner and the lover, and they are essentially different. One is a nag, always in a bad mood, negative, critical, and the other is charming and fun and playful. But what's missing is the fact that he himself is acting very differently. A charming person will elicit a more charming response on the other side. His wife doesn't react to him the way that the other woman does because he brings something else to the wife than he brings to the other woman. It's an interactive dance. It's not just an essentialist difference between two people.

19:23We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us.

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23:25You know, your survival strategy at home was to make yourself invisible and go quiet. And your survival strategy at home was to charge and to take charge. And then that's what you're doing now. When things get tough, you shut down and you charge. And the more she charges, and the more you think you need to go and shut down. And this very trait that you like so much of her stepping in now becomes the opposite, becomes a thing you need to avoid at all costs. And the very ability to contain himself that you so appreciate from him now becomes the thing you can't stand because he's like a robot in the house.

24:16That's how our relationship is now. I just kind of shut down and whatever she says I need to do, I just do it. But it's a never ending cycle. Right. You know, one day leads to another day and another day leads to forever. But you do see that your withdrawing creates her charging. Yeah. And her charging, your charging, leads to his withdrawal. It's like each of us activates the survival strategy of the other. because when you charge, it makes him more vulnerable, and then he goes into his defense mode, his survival mode. And when he goes inward, you start to feel, I'm all alone again. All the battles of my life are on my shoulder.

25:19There's never anybody there for me. And then that makes you feel like you have to arm yourself. this is all changeable, just so we're very clear. But it is learning to be in a relationship. You have to also understand that. You come with tremendous trauma. Yeah. And you're trying to do something that will be better and that will be different. And now you're in phase two. phase one was we're going to make this happen no matter what for whatever reason you decided she was worth fighting for all these years but now that you are with her you're not fighting for her or for your relationship you're just fighting for your survival that's too bad nine years you fought for her and now all you're trying to do is avoid her that's off I mean you start playing your video games and I'm just looking there I'm like we have things to do we have the house to clean we have dinner to make we are you not hungry do you never use a bathroom and here I am trying to manage a household manage a career and I'm like I have to manage you too like do you want me to wipe your ass for you and then that's why I'm always like do you need help How can I help you?

26:47Because I know that you might think all everything I'm throwing at you is difficult. But you don't say anything. So I'm just I'm always like, do you need help? How can I help you? I see things as or what we need to do as a married couple is how do we find time for each other? Because we're always busy doing things in life. There's never enough time, right? do we have eight hours a day at work and then maybe another what five six hours at home before we have to go to bed most of those times lately have involved things that don't incorporate each other so we're always away from each other we never get to see each other and then when we do see each other it's like oh we have to do this and that so we split up again and that's what So it frustrates me because how do we find time for each other?

27:51What I hear him asking is more closeness and intimacy. What I see her hearing is that he wants to slack off and that she needs an adult. But I do think that his request is part of an adult relationship. but he needs to find a better way of doing it.

28:32Can I give you a suggestion? Yes. At this point, when you want to play, she thinks, I need an adult. There's so much to do. And you need to convince her that adults have the permission to play as well. So if you sit down at some point and you say, let's just chill for a bit, and she comes in with a list, you can say, you know what? we've just worked for the last three hours we're going to take a break together and we'll get to the list later I'll engage with you on the list but you I'm going to help you give yourself permission to stop for a minute