Can I Be Loved?

0:00Hi Esther, my question to you is do you think it's possible to change who you're attracted to? I'm a 26 year old woman and I've been single for five years. I feel like I have often in the past been attracted to people who are emotionally unavailable and it's taken me a long time to realise those patterns. Your podcast has really helped me to understand the dynamics between my parents. Growing up they were very bad at communicating and I think over time the ways in which they rejected each other led them to want to be independent and self-sufficient and essentially not have much of a relationship anymore.

0:46I think this has really impacted me in the way that I search for people. Recently, I've felt that I have felt attracted to more available people, but there's a lot of fear. And I think I'm not able to let my desire overcome the fear of being vulnerable, truly vulnerable with somebody who's available.

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2:28Let's pick up really at the end of the sentence that seems to have been cut in the middle. I have tried to open myself up to people who actually welcome me. But that is very scary. Let's start right there. Yeah. Why does it scare me so much? And what scares you? Yeah. I think there's fear for myself and I think there's fear for the other person as well. I think there's maybe a sense of guilt about entering into something when I don't feel completely sure about how it's going to end. I think there's a fear of being trapped in something long term. I think that's a fear for myself that I like someone and over time, I don't like them anymore.

3:22Being trapped in something sad or unfulfilling, that scares me a lot. And that is where I look at my parents and how they were trapped and stuck. Yeah. Tell me. Yeah, I guess the communication has been really bad throughout my childhood. Between them? Yeah, between them. I think we all experienced, me and my siblings experienced a lot of love and attention, but I think they definitely didn't know how to understand each other. My mom is the pursuer, provoker, and my dad is the withdrawing one. And both seem to be playing out ways that they have been neglected or were upset and hurt as children with each other.

4:23And she would pursue him in order to argue. you. She would pursue him requesting more connection. She would provoke him. What's the dance? If I was a camera on the wall in your house, what would I see? I think that the provoking would come in the form of seeking support for something, but in a way that's really non-productive such as seeking help with um housework or a decision or wanting collaboration basically um a lot of the things I remember would be being used almost as a sort of like buffer between two people so it wouldn't necessarily be direct towards him it would be like a question posed to me, if that makes sense.

5:25Not yet. Okay. But I'm asking it to you with more precision because you give off the vibe that things are on the one hand etched in your body and on the other hand, they are rather blank. Yeah. It's like you're freezing on me. Yeah, I am. And not on me. I mean, it's not doing something to me. But the closer you get to it, the more frozen you start to feel. And to the point where suddenly you can't remember anything. Yeah, that's just what happened now. Yes, yes. And maybe that is more important than whatever else we are going to talk about. Because you're trapped inside yourself. You're trapped inside a past that feels totally vague and nebulous because it feels so painful.

6:22And so freeze is often one of our reactions. It's fight, flight, freeze, fix and form, you know. But we freeze because that way we can tune out. We can numb ourselves to the noise, to the fear, to the intensity of what's happening around us. Yeah. And when you say, I prefer to be with someone who's unavailable so that there's a preserved distance between me and that person. in a way you're saying because if I do go inside and I open that up that word I'm going to be trapped which you said a few times I'm not only sure that you would be trapped with the person but that you would be trapped in the frozenness that helped you survive but that at the same time is not allowing you to connect with anyone.

7:26Yeah.

7:30Yeah, it's happened before also. I remember that I was seeing somebody and we had a lot of conversations where my mind went blank. And when you go blank, you have thoughts, you have melodies, you have colors, you have just physical sensations. What happens? Yeah, just physical panic. And where in the body? At the chest. Keep your hand there, it's okay. It makes a difference when we can place our hand, a caring hand, a gentle hand, in a place that just completely shuts down.

8:21and then if you can breathe inside your hand and feel your chest expand and don't force yourself to remember anything because your body is remembering you're having plenty of implicit memory stored in your body that remembers on the spot the more blank you go and the more your body remembers it tightens up and it holds it all but it's right there yeah do you remember blanking at home? I don't but then I think like my sister remembers a lot of things that I don't remember this is also really interesting because my dad has talked about the fact that he has a huge blank in his childhood. And does he describe anything more than the blank?

9:20Does he describe what he needed to blank from? Yeah, his parents were splitting up and my gran had a nervous breakdown and left. She moved away. She didn't come back, but they were in contact after that. How old was your dad? I think he was like 11 or 12 and he didn't talk for like a year or something. And do you remember one thing your sister remembered that you said, oh my gosh, how is it possible I completely forgot this one?

10:04The same thing is just happening to me. Good. I'm glad you're telling me. Yeah, I can't think right now.

10:18Okay. Just put the hand right back. It's fine. It's fine. That entrapment, that sense of I got to get out of here. I can't take this. I need to tune all of this out must have been really intense were you 11 years old too? I mean there's been arguing throughout my childhood I don't know it feels all similar

11:02it's okay you don't have to force and produce something just because I ask a question

11:15we are in the midst of our session there is still so much to talk about so stay with us

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15:04When you shut down, do you turn to nature, food, music, movement, any of them or others? Yeah, probably moving. Moving, moving. Yeah. With music? Yeah, with music too. I'm a musician. And is there a song that often comes into your head in the midst of blank? Or any songs? Yeah. I hear Could You Be Loved by Bob Marley. So it's one particular song that comes up and kind of fills the space? Yeah, sometimes it's like made-up music as well. Mm-hmm. Because the music gives you the emotion without giving you the story. It has a powerful effect. It's something I used to listen to a lot growing up, so I wonder whether that's like in the house, it would be in the house.

16:15I think it's a lot harder talking about it than I thought it would be because I view my childhood as very loving and it feels like blaming talking about my parents. You've been very clear that they were very caring and loving to all three of you. Yeah. But the little girl who hears fighting around her doesn't have the reasoning that the adult has now. Yeah. And so it's more visceral. The same loving people are being not very loving with each other. And that's scary. Yeah. And a number of wires get entangled. Oh, adult love is messy. Oh, adult love is a trap. or adult love when you no longer love the person, what the fuck do you do?

17:27Yeah. And you feel like it's your fault also because you know that you're the thing that's attaching them. Like you're the reason. They're sticking around for you or it feels like they're sticking around for you. And I think I was aware of that. that your parents stuck together for the children and that the other person would stick around because they wouldn't know how to leave. You know, what's interesting is that in your version of your story, other people have no agency. It's as if you're making all the decisions and they are like hapless, helpless people, you know, characters of somebody else's plot.

18:14That's not necessarily the way this goes. That is true. Recently, they came to stay with me and it felt worse than normal. Yeah, I feel really responsible. I worry about what's happening when I'm not there. And is there a part of you that says, I cannot connect with anybody else until my parents are okay? yeah that's exactly it i feel like i need to fix it and to help them learn and change rather than be stuck in habits yeah i feel responsible for my parents relationship in an over-responsible way. I can't grow up and leave and have my own life and my own relationships until I know that they are, in quote, fixed or that they are fine or that they're not going to chew each other up.

19:29Yeah, it's weird also because I do think they need each other at the same time. You know, it feels great. It doesn't feel obvious that people would be better off alone without each other. I don't think they understand how much they rely on each other in terms of the codependence kind of thing. I guess I'm saying I fear what it would be like to be truly independent. What it would be like for you to be truly independent or for them? I guess all three.

20:08Yes, they may be codependent on each other, but so are you on them in a way, right? You cannot be grounded in yourself until you know that they are fine. Yeah. Are you close to your siblings? Yeah. Do you discuss any of it? Yeah. I talked to my sister about it. It used to be that she didn't want to talk about it. She viewed talking about it as like a betrayal, I think. Everyone amongst you seems to feel that if they expose the challenges between the parents, they are being illegitimate or they are betraying or they are inflicting guilt. And I think what you're highlighting, if I understand it well, and your sister too, is that all of you are acutely, acutely aware that your parents in some way compromised on their relationship in order to be for the children.

21:20Yeah. And that you owe them. Yeah. something my dad has been open about was that because of the way he grew up something that he sees as like a big achievement in his life is having a stable family unit like that's his success I think he feels that that's that's what success is that he did not inflict upon his children that which had been done to him. Yeah. And I think if there was an expression of negative emotions of any kind, it sort of undermines that it would shake his worldview and view of the family. As in, I did everything I could to not have my children go through the chaos and the abandonment and the terror that I went through.

22:22Yeah. So everything should be fine for them. How can they have any troubling experience, any fear, frustration, hurt, sadness, loss, since I made sure that the worst thing that could happen didn't happen? No other feeling should appear after that. Yeah, I think his coping mechanism is that he will pretend things are fine until they are fine. And I think it's this sense that you tell yourself you're content, and then you will be content. Like there's nothing crazily dramatic going on in comparison to his experience. There's stability and that's contentment. To which you say? To which I say I want more for myself, so much more than stability and like continuation.

23:35You know, it's not active. It's not curious. It's not love to me. It doesn't feel like a relationship without the type of communication and understanding. Like, where is the relationship? That's how it feels to me. who did you meet now did you meet someone and that's why we're speaking today yes I think so I met someone who it felt like a lot of things aligned and they seemed really open and like emotionally intelligent and etc but it turned out that they were not wanting any kind of commitment but it was sort of a very slow filtering down of understanding that not very transparent but yeah it was the sense that my subconscious had gone for an unavailable person again or someone who decided that they didn't want something but didn't tell me and it was really frustrating because I felt like I tried really hard to not do that and somehow did it again.

24:57But my first thought about what you're telling me is that you think that what you did again was unconsciously go for someone who is not available. I think that what you did again is think that the only person with agency is you.

25:20And that the other person just is happenstance, as if they have nothing to do with this. Maybe you chose and you actually picked up on the signs that were out there and that's very clear. And that doesn't mean that you obsequitously went and found that your unconscious is in charge, leading you into obstructed roads when you think consciously that you finally are actually meeting someone who would be open. And that person may have presented themselves indeed as open and then decided for whatever reason that that's not what they wanted. But that doesn't mean that that's what you secretly went for.

26:10Yeah. So this is the second or third time that I'm thinking, why does she put everything on her? Why does she think she's the only one who holds the wheel here, who has a sense of action and agency, and the other people just kind of don't have any say or will or drive of their own? Yeah, I do have a strong illusion of control over everything and therefore responsibility. Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that.

26:51We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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30:33I can understand even why you would shut down if someone feels that excessive sense of responsibility and control and decision-making, the only time it stops is when you shut down. You don't know how to stay engaged without taking everything on top of you. Yeah, I think that's true. You understand? The minute you enter and you're engaged and you're present, you take everything on your shoulders. Yeah, that's really true. I've been really struggling recently with seeking support from people in my circles like as in saying something if I would like something to change and I do the whole thing in my head and resolve it in my head already like control the whole situation and resolve it and push it back.