Can Our Love Survive Our Differences?

27:37And how does it translate to how you would raise or prepare children for a world that lacks empathy and can be very challenging and cruel? And having roots in some type of theological background can provide guidance and avoid moral turpitude. So that I think would be... More important than politics for them would be religion. Yeah, because they would say geopolitical stuff means nothing because these terms change every four years, three years, wherever. Man could be easily corrupted. Even if someone you like could still be corrupted, someone you don't like could be influenced. But your faith in God tells a lot about yourself and how do you manage your well-being, right?

28:11Those that walk in Christ, their behavior is a testament in how they carry themselves. So I don't need to tell you I'm a Christian. the way I carry myself to present myself should tell you this is a man of purpose a man of God a man of discipline and in West Indian culture work is a predominant solution to everything your relationship's having problems you need to work harder your kids are messing up you need to work harder don't have enough money you need to work harder you're tired you need to work harder work is always a solution to any and everything and I come from and live in that world that's the only world I know and when we are immigrants as well so when we came to this country my grandfather worked picking up garbage for United Airlines.

28:48But he had to get the rest of his family, you know, my father, my grandmother, everyone here. So there had to be steps and you had to have focus and purpose as to what you're doing. So when she sees the world and she's a lot more relaxed and kumbaya, I don't know anything about that. I see folks that have, I think, the luxury of enjoying themselves and being able to take on and create first world issues and problems. But that's not the world I'm from. When you hear him just tell the story as he just did, what happens to you? What's the feeling, first of all? Not the thoughts. Yeah.

29:29A lot of this isn't actually new. It's the conversations we've had. But I appreciate it. I'm open to it. I am impatient. I get irritated. I feel embraced. I feel completely separate I appreciate it it's probably more the general in that realm of feelings and I say that to him sometimes or the relationship has become more and more focused on the gaps and the differences I would like him to fact check me on it but I think I express it ask do I express it? oh yes For example, when we were coming up here, I started looking for some vegetarian options in New York City. Nothing to do with me. Just as a partner, as a lover, courteous, I would do it for anyone, right?

30:25And then she wrote back, said, this means the world to me. I'm not saying I want to eat here, but the fact that you have put the effort and time into it, I was totally blown away by that response. And do you think that part of that is that you have a person next to you who has a sense that she had to fend for herself?

30:51In the way you described how moved she was by you looking for vegetarian options, which is really how moved she was by you taking care of her. and then of course that she appreciated it out loud and I was touched by this being moved by his taking care of you he sees you, he thinks of you he may not think about the world which is exactly what you said but he's taking care of you in ways that you seem to have wanted and there there is no betrayal so I want to understand the moral dilemma right because that's kind of the piece that seems to be standing in the heart of why this relationship can't move it is now in a kind of a developmental arrest it wants to move to another stage you finish school you have to decide where you're going do you have a deadline to your stay in the U.S.

31:51uh yeah I'm moving to Canada next November 4th In two weeks. All right. So there's imminence here. Yes. Right? And a part of you says, if I think about how he thinks, I feel like I'm betraying myself. But if I think about how he feels and how he acts towards me, then I feel like maybe I have been the most loyal to myself that I've ever been. Or kind, maybe, than loyal. Yeah. And so when someone thinks for you, with you, in this kind, tender way as he did, it moves you. It's an important piece and it confounds you when it stands in contrast. If he thought a certain way and then he acted a certain way, it would be much more easy to know yea or nay.

32:51and you kind of find yourself with the question what's the relationship between one's ideology and one's actions and what is the piece that I look at more do I judge people or look at people by virtue of their ideology and how they think and how they vote and how they believe and all of that or do I look at how they act and behave towards all, not just their own. Yes, I think all of us carry a host of different stances and opinions. And I think it is actually very dangerous to put people in boxes based on one label, because first of all, we have a ton of different labels, some of which are contradictory.

33:38And we hold multitudes within ourselves. Of course, even to people who, for example, have voted for Trump, the motivations can be very different and contradictory. So it's an easy thing to point to because it's something that I think a lot of people can understand in a narrow way. Meaning the voting, you mean? Yeah, the voting is just like one filter. The idea that we contain multitudes and her caution that we are more than just the boxes also highlights the fact that both of them have boxes. They perceive the other as part of boxes, and they have requirements for the other to enter into some of their own boxes.

34:27By boxes, they refer to ideologies, identities, ideas. And they are actually both grappling with it. Each of them.

34:44but if I thought he was overall a bad person or overall didn't treat me well or anything like that then I wouldn't be here and I assume he conversely all of the labels that I do carry that are antithetical to his history and the way that he has seen himself in the same way that I am being forced to rewrite a narrative about myself in order to make space for him, I assume he's doing the same with me. Which is why meeting through dancing, non-verbally, physically, bodily, is extremely important because your bodies took you to places where your minds wouldn't let you go. Yes. they would be much more narrow-minded whereas your body is connected in a very immediate way and more primary.

35:46So I want to know what happened to your bodies. All these differences notwithstanding even now when our bodies meet something melts and it crosses over. Yes. In a variety of settings, that sense of touch, whether we're canoodling or cuddling or in much more intimate positions, that type of magic, connectivity, it always comes back. Sometimes just a small touch is enough to settle the other person down. So for example, there's been points already during this session which I'm attuned to her so I can tell or feel when she's uncomfortable. I touch her as a matter of reassurance to transfer some of the energy onto myself.

36:35And she does the same thing occasionally with me as well. She'll grab my knee or maybe we'll find each other's hands. So that's been there from inception. Without the nonverbal piece, my mind would have filtered you out as a problematic person without getting to know who you were because I'm holding on to preconceived notions and dispositions. So without the nonverbal, it doesn't work. You may look at me and think, you know, he's probably pretty soft, pretty sexy, but I'm not very good at flirting. And so dance is a great opportunity for me to express myself nonverbally, putting together long diatribes like such as this to explaining myself, which I think would be a turnoff.

37:19I just had a thought. Here. Find one of your tunes that you like. Are we doing this? Okay. Yeah, I do have that. Just one song that may even have been the song of that night, if you remember it.

37:42So here's what I was thinking.

37:47The stark contrast of their meeting exclusively in body language made me want to explore this further. So I asked him to pick a piece of music, a piece of kizomba. And then I gave each one a pen and paper. And I just said, if these bodies could speak in a language that I can understand too, having not been there what's the story they would tell what is the other version of your relationship that we need to open here that is in addition to all the values conversations and the other aspects of your relationship and they listened to the music and they wrote and no sooner did it start that he burst into tears deep sobbing grief sobbing.

38:45So I asked him what was the meaning of music and dance for him.

38:54There was a time when I had a difficult time talking. I had speech impediment. You mentioned earlier I speak quickly. Yes you stuttered before. Right, right. You can pick up all the tick. I have all the classic symptoms of someone with that impediment and so I had to find other ways to communicate to those around me. My parents, my dad, there's not a lot of patience for that. You know, you don't want to grow up being weird or strange. So again, I was going to a speech pathologist. When I was able to discover this type of social dance and it became a much more effective tool for communicating, I do take things very serious.

39:39and when you are... That's your body story already. Take a few minutes and just write. Okay. They stayed in the room by themselves with the music, their pants, and their bodies. After a while, I came back and I asked if I could hear what the bodies had to say.

40:03If this letter had a title, what would it be? notes on my body. Yeah. You want me to read it to him? Uh-huh. Yeah. I wrote it somewhat from the perspective of my body. So I recognized your body. You provided a container, a safe haven within which I could just be. The limit of where you started and where I ended blurred. I felt like we dissolved into each other. It was a place I wanted to stay indefinitely. Your body felt strong and warm, but also soft and gentle. My body felt safe. I felt certain. I didn't need words.

40:59Her body, in essence, told him, I had a healing experience with you. Being a survivor of sexual assault, being in the condition of MS that I have, dancing with you allowed me to lean against you at once strong and tender. And we dissolved into one and I wanted it to stay as such. It's the clearest she's been in the entire session so far.

41:34What's your title? Um, A Day That Repeats Itself. You're going to read it to her. Okay. I listen. Not sure how to begin. I've been waiting for this moment to move forward with my life, but lacking the ingredients to do so. Why is everything so challenging? I worked so hard to achieve so little. I know life isn't perfect, and I thought this would be that opportunity, but some challenges remain the same. My clock is limited and I love myself to believe that my time would be infinite with you. With us, why does everything have to be so challenging? I'm tired of everything being harder for me than it is for everyone else.

42:15I fall in love with someone who is not who I thought or hoped she'd be, but she was more than I expected her to be. To many of my failed relationships, hard work doesn't solve everything. I'm afraid that I'm losing my last opportunity, and I don't have a viable solution or a clear path forward. That's all I was able to write in that time. When she read her letter, it felt embodied. When he wrote his letter, it's exactly why he had learned to dance. Because with words, he experienced the world that is challenging to him, The world that makes him feel that he's a failure, that makes him feel that he hasn't met the expectations that have been put on him as the firstborn son.

43:06Whereas when he listened to the music and he was in the dance, that space was uncomplicated.

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45:37Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. I see my friends' kids going to college. I see my siblings' kids going to college. And I just feel like I'm falling further and further behind. And I'm approaching 50.

46:19And I'm going to be laid off soon. So I won't have access to health care. A lot of things are not better or where they should be or where I thought they would be if you ask me what my life looked like 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I'd never think I'd be single without my own resources, without clarity. I guess in the middle of my life, I just figured those things would have been done. House, car, kids, just don't know how this story ends. and I work hard on myself to be what I would consider an ideal husband or father to whomever it is I'm with. But that work doesn't yield the results that I want regardless of how hard I try.

47:15And the same thing is happening now? I feel like it's happening here as well. The visa stuff is outside of my control. The health care stuff is outside of my control. The work stuff is outside of my control. and we're still here with two weeks ago as our deadline approaches November 4th and every day has been trying to figure out a path forward or a solution that's viable and so that's what I think the music did was allowed me to I guess release because I felt you haven't said any of this to her uh no not maybe nibbled around the edges but you want her to respond okay sure

47:57the emotional effect of all that I think is something that has been new it's not that I thought that you didn't care but I I have felt at different times like I've been flipping out and I didn't know emotionally that you felt this way also because I've been panicking about it for a long time. But something that you've said a lot is that if we want to figure it out, we will. Nothing so far feels insurmountable. I am not seeing a deal breaker or an ending because of geography. We can figure out where we want to live. We can figure out what us looks like. And yeah, it's not going to look like we thought it would 10 years ago, 20 years ago, but that isn't inherently a bad thing for me.

48:56What do you need? What do I need? I actually have a list. Would you like me to read my list? I have, okay. Um, we did couples counseling a little while ago and our therapist had me List out my list of needs. I need words of affirmation. I need keeping your words and or your words matching your actions. I need truth seeking. I need integration with my family and my friends and or integration into my community. I need to feel like a priority and or to not feel like a burden. I need to be able to plan. I need to be seen. I need to be met with curiosity. I need physical affection. I need to be connected to a bigger purpose.

49:50I need to feel protected and or to be sure my well-being is prioritized in decision-making. I need partnership and I need moments of intimacy.

50:02That's what I need. Part of that you receive. Parts of that I definitely receive. Well, there are some that aren't happening though. Yeah. There are some that aren't happening. So let's sort it out. I'm getting words of affirmation I'm getting being seen sometimes I'm getting being met with curiosity sometimes getting physical affection I'm getting feeling protected sometimes I'm getting a lot of moments of intimacy

50:39and I wish I was getting more of what integration of my family and friends. Yes. What is the problem there? That's the one I picked up on too. My friends is the big glaring spot. So he hasn't been present to a lot of the friend events that I would have expected a partner to be at. Because? I was uncomfortable. There was some unexpected actions that had thrown me off. and what was it about? Two of my closest friends, after we'd been dating for, I think, about six months, my friends Googled him. When they Googled him, they found records of his license having been revoked. Just if you read the whole thing, it doesn't look very good.

51:36It looks like there was money that was mismanaged, etc. My friends came to me and said, hey, we looked up your new dude. We found this thing. I went to him and I said, hey, my friends told me about this thing. I looked it up myself, read through it. What's the story behind this? My interpretation of how you experienced that is that they went behind his back or were like checking up on him. There was sequestering information from me. and then the stuff that comes up is complicated. It was a civil matter. I'm not found liable for anything. I didn't do anything. But that's the story that's put on there.

52:22And so I felt betrayed by them. And so that led to me saying, hey, listen, I don't feel comfortable because every time I speak to these people, it's not genuine. It's false. I don't want to be a part of that. so it would cause a big mess, right? Because now we're two years in. I don't know them. They don't know me. I don't trust them. And so we have a very, very, very big problem. And she runs almost a secret life, right? I don't know when she goes to see her friends. I don't know when she goes to different events. I don't know anything about it. It's a whole separate half of her I know nothing about.

52:56So I'm like, fine. That was how I put her in a very untenable situation. And are you willing to shift that? It has to shift. And so I've begun to say, this can't last like this. So I have to move forward. You have a mess, but you can rectify that mess. You need to know which are the pieces that are not in your control and which are the relational pieces that you can fix. And at some point, if the opportunity presents, you'll talk with the two main people and you'll just say, for her we need to find a way to be able to not create secrets but it's not genuine it's not genuine it's no less genuine than this I mean this is genuine no I think the same thing for you it's like do they even know you're still dating him yeah yeah of course so then you say I've got to open this up you may or you may not like each other but he needs to be included in the things that are large groups or whatever.

54:07That's for you to say. Because if you decide to stay together, it probably is not going to be a very good situation. So they're waiting for you. You're the pivot. You're the triangulated person and you're the pivot. Are they trying to dissuade you? I have no one in my life who's trying to dissuade me of anything. what has happened as a result of this is that I also have no one in my life who has experienced us. I have no one in my life who has seen us interact, who has any insight into my relationship that isn't what I'm sharing. You don't have any friends, shared friends. No. You don't hang out as a couple with any friends.

54:56Not really, no. Because we don't have those friends. you've put yourself in a more vulnerable place by having secluded your relationship by not having other witnesses other participants

55:15I'm guilty too, right? yes, there's no air there's no variety, there's no other people there's no input, there's no observation I tend to think as a whole that relationships don't live well in a vacuum. They asphyxiate. It's interesting with you. It's like pieces of the story are emerging now that I would have put on the top. There's layers. There's layers, but it depends which layer you open up first.

55:55We're at the end of the session, And I have just learned about how isolated they are. None of her friends have ever seen her in her life with him. None of them have ever been able to say, OK, so he doesn't vote like you, he doesn't believe like you, he doesn't eat like you, but he is loyal and there and present and caring and loving. And that may have been one moment of reconciliation between values and feelings, between her love and her thinking. at the same time for him. His family know her, but they don't know what she thinks or what she believes or doesn't believe. And so each one of them finds themselves in this space in between without an anchor.

56:41Do you make plans? I do not make plans. Why? I'm not sure what I'm planning for. She's leaving November 4. When's the next time you meet? Until the meet, she and I? Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know. Why not? We usually see each other on Friday, Saturday. We usually see each other on the weekends. Even when she will be in Canada? No. All right. So what happens after November 4? I've got no clue. Well, why not? I haven't planned it. What prevents you from making a plan? You're allowed to go in and out of the country, right? Yes. Okay. What prevents you from making a plan? I've avoided that particular topic.

57:24So no, I've not taken the time out to figure out how I plan. Why? I've been distracted. Because you're not sure that you are still a couple? Because you think that this trip is basically the end without stating it? Or because you are challenged by actually saying, I bought a ticket, I'll be there on the 28th? I guess it's probably more the latter. What I will confess is that, yes, I've been distracted.

57:57and I thought that the date for this was a different date. The November 4th thing just was, I guess, decided recently, so a lot of this stuff I'm still processing.

58:14Do you know, you wrote what you need. Do you know what you want? That's bad. With him. with him. That's our focus. What I want? Like you're basically saying to him, a lot of things you say are very nice, but it does not follow through with actions. I need you to be more, you know, I need you to bring your achievement orientation to us and not just to your work. He says, my mind has been elsewhere because I'm massively anxious because I won't have a job at some point soon and I'm very worried about that. But this, I don't make plans and I've been distracted over two years. It's not solid. But on the other end, you don't say either.

59:06You turn to him, you wait for him, he doesn't make the plans and then you kind of end up acting by default. I have to go home because my paper is over. You don't like the things that are not in your control but you use them. They end up making the decisions more than the two of you. Those circumstances that you have to surrender to end up being the determining factors. I'm hoping I'm not being harsh. I mean, I'm just trying to be... No, we need clarity. No waffle, waffle. It's excellent. How is this conversation for you? The conversation is good. I mean, I think what you're saying is hitting a lot of things that I think are very true about our relationship and about the way that we've navigated it.

1:00:00I think both of us are really bad at saying, you know, I want this. I think you both are doing this. I will tell you what I want when I know from you that it is possible. Yeah, I agree with that. But I can't ask for something if I'm not sure that there's a possibility it would actually happen. And so you're teetering constantly on the doubt. You don't need certainty to want. I want us to stay together. I want us to plan how we're going to deal with that next year. I want us to think what are our options. I want us to plan. I want us to be together for the holidays. I want. I want. They're nice things.

1:00:49I want you to meet my friends. I want to get over this thing. I don't have the answers. But what I don't hear from either of you is, I believe in us. I want this. You can say, I don't know what I want. I'm not sure about us. I need to go home and rethink. Possible too.

1:01:18They are inflicting doubt on each other all the time, and they have no mechanisms to dispel that doubt, which is what a village around us often does in a relationship. And being upended like that, being isolated, having no mirrors, I do think is a part of why they are unable to make plans in why they are unable to just make a statement, I want this, put themselves out, however vulnerable it is, and actually give the other person reassurance by their wanting.

1:02:03Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut, our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

1:02:40Thank you.