Can We Repair After a 25 Year Affair?

0:00None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

0:23What should we make of the Iran War ceasefire announcement and where do things go from here? If anything has surprised me over the last 24 hours, it's that Iran agreed to a ceasefire, and particularly that Iran agreed to a ceasefire after that outrageous message that President Trump put out. I'm Jake Sullivan. And I'm John Feiner. And we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, we break down the latest news on Iran and share our net assessment of where things stand for the U.S. The episode's out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

0:59Megan Rapinoe here this week on A Touch More we're bringing you our live show in Phoenix with WNBA four-time champion Chelsea Gray and the Naismith Coach of the Year Shea Ralph together we talk about the NCAA semifinals the crazy activity in the transfer portal and of course the final matchup for the NCAA championship check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube

1:30They met for the first time on the day of their engagement. They are an arranged marriage. They had been promised to each other as teenagers. They came to the United States together to hope for the American dream, which they got to experience. And in the midst of this lives a 25-year affair. I lied to her many times, hiding, when she found out. It was really painful. Sometimes I wish I never found out. The fact that so many times he denied, and he was caught, and he was not honest, is very disturbing to me. They are outstanding members of their community. They have large families. And I'm mentioning all of this because to understand the role of the affair is to understand its ripple effects on all these other relationships.

2:37And the questions of secrecy and transparency need to be mapped against this whole backdrop. The role of the therapist is to meet people where they are at and to accompany them wherever they choose to go. because they are the only ones who will live with the consequences of their decisions. In this couple, the woman very clearly says to us, I want this to work. I am not coming here for you to help me leave. It is a commitment for life. The affair is over and they want to recover from it or to continue from it. Maybe what I would consider is after an arranged marriage, this time they can have a chosen marriage.

3:29When you have an arranged marriage like the one you had, what were the ideals, the ambitions that you brought with you about marriage? What is the conception of what marriage is about? It's about staying together for life. Divorce is not even an option. Like that's not something that was acceptable. So it's a one-time enterprise with no exit. And the commitment is for life. The reason I ask is because if that is the frame, then the way you deal with crisis is very different than if you think you have a way out. I mean, it's not like now it's not acceptable. I mean, within our community, not in our immediate families, There have been divorces and people are more open to the idea of separating, but still thinking about the families and the culture and the ties that you make within a marriage.

4:36It's hard to break. Not just two spouses getting apart, it's the whole family falling apart. Marriage is not between two individuals. Our marriage is between two families. Yes, and even more. And even more. Yeah. Okay. You want to say something?

4:57There was no choices but to listen to the parents. And this is going on for centuries the way it was. So we had to listen and we have to go with their decision. That's how the normal life was. There's another piece that was part of the normal life. I'm sure nobody went to see a therapist. Nobody. I think we are the first ones. Oh, wow. Yes. Right? What's that like for you, to be sitting here right now? The way that this happened, the betrayal that happened, And it's painful. But honestly, having a therapist and listening to the therapist, it opens our eyes. So I am blessed that I listened to you and some other podcast.

6:00It opened my eyes that my mistakes causes so much to hurt other people. That was surprising to you? It was a surprise for me how much pain I caused. I lied to her many times hiding, but when she found out, it was really painful. And I wish I would have stopped not hurting her anymore. but that's my fault and I caused it and I hope I can heal her moving forward. That's all I, whatever you can ask, I can just. I mean, I'm basically going to ask you to tell me a little bit what happened. Yes. Which can be told in many different ways. Yes. But you can just give me the basics. We are going to meet only once, so I don't need to know every detail.

7:10Yeah, so the person who he was engaged with was my cousin. Same age? No, she's about 15 to 18 years younger to him and a lot younger to me. She was somebody who we supported a lot because she grew up without a father, and she's my aunt's daughter. So when she came to America, I took her as a little sister, helped her get her everything and got her job and helped her get situated somehow or the other. She was living with us. And I could see she was very manipulative even then, like she was lacking something that she was trying to find from any man that she met. so I saw little signs of him gravitating towards her even then like she needs a license but only he can go and help her or she needs a car only he wants to go help her whatever she needed he would run and do it for her so she had met somebody who she was about to get married around it was in the early 2000s So this is a story of how many years?

8:2725, yeah. And he kind of tried to help her with setting up a business with the man she was marrying. And they started meeting alone and trying to discuss the business plans and slowly trying to get closer, I guess, during that time. So one time it was Diwali and we had a party going on and they both didn't show up and it was late trying to find him and he couldn't locate him and then when they both arrived I asked her oh what took you so long where were you and she said oh I went to celebrate Diwali and that was it but then when I came home something in my heart told me something wasn't right so I confronted him that day and he acknowledged that he was with her and they were in the parking lot talking about the new business venture that she was opening and nothing else and I was like why couldn't you talk about that venture in front of everybody what was so secretive and I still have that question which I never got the answer for and the answer is that they never discussed business I don't know what was it but I I was ready to leave the house that day he stopped me he's like there's nothing you don't trust me you don't believe me, there's nothing, there's nothing.

9:48I stayed. And ever since, and I told her that... That was 25 years ago? 25 years ago. And so for 25 years, you lived with a second sense? Yes, yes. From that day on, I told her to get out of my life, to get out of my house, that you're not welcome to my house anymore to leave. But little did I know that she never went away from his life. and I always had some suspicion. Let me ask you, the suspicion was because of how he behaved toward you? The suspicion was because of how he would have his mysterious disappearances? No, he never disappeared, but I knew he had some contact with her. Something within me said something's not right.

10:37And I used to have dreams about him marrying her And I woke up and I told him all this. And he would just brush it off, never even talk about it. And a few times I caught him texting her. And then he would say, oh, it was just because I wanted to wish her happy birthday. Why do you have to wish her happy birthday? You don't even remember your sister's birthday. Why would you remember her birthday? And then I still kept on giving him chances over chances over chances. I don't know why. May I suggest one reason? Because sometimes when you know, you have to deal with the consequences of knowing. So sometimes people live with a sense and they never translate that sense into knowing.

11:33because knowing would demand that they take action. And it sometimes is an action they don't want to take. It's possible. Sometimes I wish I never found out. It's like, how do I deal with the consequences? So that strange thought is actually very common. If I don't know, I wish I knew. And when I know, sometimes I wish I didn't know. because knowing now puts me in a situation where I am not just dealing with how he betrays me, but I'm wondering if I'm betraying myself. Absolutely.

12:14People are often obsessed with the idea of how could you live for so long and not ask and not know or believe. and it's because there is something really very sometimes dark and complicated in the idea that sensing is still better than having the truth because once you have the truth you have to respond to it because once you have the truth you can't say I asked and he denied whatever he did is no longer determining of my response, only my integrity, my choices, however compromising and imperfect they may be. And it's me vis-a-vis myself. As long as we are in the sensing zone, it's me and you.

13:06Once we are in the truth zone, it's me and me.

13:15but I also feel like I kind of am relieved I'm not tracing him anymore I'm not worried who he's talking to anymore I was always like who's he texting why is he texting why is he not sleeping why is he late so this was very active right I mean at least in my mind I don't know how active he was or no. But for me, everything was a suspicion. He moved, I would be like, where are you going? He's in the bathroom. I'm like, oh, does he have his phone with him? This is how I lived. For me, every minute was torture. But at least now I don't care. You want to talk to her, go talk to her. I really don't care anymore because it's kind of now out and I know what the truth is.

13:58The lies were really bothering me more than his relationship. The fact that so many times he denied and he was caught and he was not honest is very disturbing to me. So what's it like for you when you hear this? And I mean, do you visualize it when she describes it? Are you back in the scene? Yes. Obviously, she got hurt because of my lies and I stayed in touch. I texted three, four times a week. And that was an issue because I was hiding it from her. Because of my life, she got hurt. And that's also my biggest regret that why did I go that far? You've said this a couple of times now, that it was very shocking to you to see your wife being so hurt.

15:03Why then? Why did that moment suddenly make you realize that your behavior was so hurtful when for 25 years she's asking you, what's up? And you were so dissociated in the lie that you couldn't imagine that it could hurt her? First of all, thinking about in so many years that she saw me texting. I didn't listen to all that, that this person is not just with you. This person have done this to other people as well. I ignored it. This woman has seduced other men. Is that the idea? Yes, yes. But I felt comfortable with her and our relationship moved on. But to answer your question, I knew that I'm lying to her, but I didn't know the trauma situation that my act had so many consequences and one of the biggest consequences was the trauma that I caused, that I lost her trust.

16:27and it's very hard to gain it back. And for me, the person always showed me that I am a wanted person. She liked me being around. She has done the same thing to other people as well, but I fell for it. So my regret is that I fell to the seduction of my mistress. Yes. And that other people saw it from afar, whereas I let it wrap me. Yes. And why do you think you were more susceptible? My biggest reason was to help her out, and that was my soft point. I mean, I have done that with other people in my life as well, but this was the one that I went too far. And what is it about being a sugar dad that is so compelling?

17:36I don't know what's the meaning of sugar dad. You can guess. It's a word that you don't use, but I'm going to introduce it to you. Sugar Dad is, I don't know if I'm right, to support someone in their life. No, because you can be generous to a lot of people. That's not the point. Did you see her as powerful? Powerful as in seductive? Yeah, I can say that, yes. And so my question to you is, what made you susceptible to her charm, her seductions, her brittleness, her neediness, her reliance on you? There's a paternal relationship here, and she lost her daddy young. Yeah. And you come very kind. What made you susceptible?

18:36this woman did not do something to you that you did not want done to you. It was a seductive way of talking and she wanted something. It attracted me towards the person.

19:00We talked about her power of seduction and his power of being paternal, giving, but in an eroticized context so that he wasn't just extracting. He was giving in return. And that made the relationship, in his eyes, more honorable. At the same time, he also realizes that he wasn't that special. He was one of many. And that this was her way of connecting, of bringing together something very erotic and something very nubile. As he begins to unravel this script, he becomes more aware of how it was a combination for him of feeling flattered and manipulated, which is one of the ways that the rapture begins to dissolve.

20:11And that's where the dissociation cracks open.

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22:04How is Trump's psychology having an impact on the Great Power Conflict? There were folks who for years could never imagine the U.S. carrying out limited strikes on Iran, right? If you go back to the 12-day war, he dropped those bunker busters. And you had presidents through multiple administrations who never would have gone to full-scale war with Iran. And here they are. I'm Preet Bharara. And this week, CNN's chief national security analyst, Jim Shudo, joins me to discuss the Iran war, our fraying alliances, and the rise of Russia and China. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.

22:43and that's my regret is i did this for so long so here's the thing when you feel bad about what you've done when you regret when you have remorse when you feel guilty sometimes it prevents you from actually understanding why you did it. Because you feel so bad about it that the last thing you want to do is actually think about why you did it. That's true. So this question about why you were so susceptible, who were you with her? What parts of you was she appealing to? Is it okay that I'm asking him these questions in front of you? questions I've asked repeatedly and never gotten the answers. You know why?

23:36And the reason I'm asking it is because the temptation is sometimes to want to find out the facts of the affair. What you did when you saw her, where you went, which hotel, da-da-da. It doesn't really help us. To know the facts doesn't really help us. The meaning of it is what will help. Not just what you did, but what it meant. And because you feel so bad about what it did, you're not really able to ask yourself, what was this like for me? I'm not a guy who usually does stuff like that. That's not who I am. I don't particularly think of myself as a liar. And yet here I found myself lying consistently with this strange notion that if I lie and she doesn't know then it won't hurt.

24:28You know? That's true. Our whole family respects him so much. He's looked upon as sincere, helpful, like everything you can imagine. My family loves him more than me for everything he's done for everybody. Who knows what? The whole system is involved now? No, no, no, no. I'm very reluctant to talk to, like only a few people. Because they would be so mad at him that they would make it. That too, and I don't, if I'm staying with him, my biggest thing is I don't want him to look upon down or to me be felt sorry for. People look up to us like we have the perfect life, the perfect home, the perfect family, the perfect car, the perfect house, the perfect beach house, the perfect vacation.

25:17We have everything anybody wants. I don't want that to go away if we are living together, if we want to stay together. Why should they think of him differently?

25:33I don't want people to know because once they see that, it's as if it will subsume everything else. The fact that he cheated is more important than all the other things that he has done. and they will think ill of him. And they will pity me that I had no choice or that I made the unfortunate choice to stay with this person. And they will disrespect him and they will disrespect me. And that is a very layered, complex dilemma that so many people face at that moment. Because now she's holding the secret of his secret. This is an aspect of the recovery process that is not so known. When we collapse it all into yes or no, on or off, we bypass some of the more complicated, deeper decisions that we make in the process of this.

26:38And yet they are so important and so determining for the life afterwards.

26:49So he's a very helpful person. He's helped many people in his life. And that's, I think, the biggest problem that he fell into with her. I think him helping, helping, helping, and trying to give her the comfort of what she's missing. And I don't know, every celebration felt like it was with her. A week after my granddaughter was born, he went and he met her. A week after my dad passed, he went and he met her. It was hurtful. And ever since, I just cannot, I cannot accept why would he do this to me. We have a perfect life, a good life, everything. I've tortured, like I've been tortured. I don't know why.

27:35I hear you. I hear you. And I'm not sure that he's going to be able to answer you right away. I'm not sure he knows

27:48but if you say this is not the person that everybody knows then there's another part of this person that has lived here separate from the rest of you that is dissociated that doesn't mean it's okay it just says there is this upstanding citizen that everybody admires that is revered in the community that has a perfect life that wants to be respected etc Et cetera, et cetera. And la a côté, next to it, is this very same person who is risking it all, basically. So at this moment, you're revisiting the scene of the crime all the time in this kind of ruminating way. And you are revisiting your reaction to what it felt like to finally see the effect that your behavior had on her.

28:37And each of you is just replaying those two scenes. They're very, very powerful and painful, but they're holding you stuck. Instead of saying what I did to her, what I did to her, not because you shouldn't, but in addition, you have to ask yourself, what was this about for me? And that cannot just be because she was seductive and because she has charms. what does it mean to be a very respected upright citizen who goes and is naughty on the other side if we can get you a little bit unstuck from these two positions because if she tells the story you're looking into the emptiness you're bracing yourself you're waiting for it to end you are not relating to her you are not responding you are not putting your hand on her.

29:32You're not making her feel better. You're not telling her I'm here with you now. You're just sitting there like a chastised man, boy and waiting for it to stop. Yes, that's how we are. Yeah, it's not going to be good. Turn to her. Tell her, don't tell me the same story again. You don't have to revisit it. We both know it. Join her. Help her. I get it, yes I want you to remove those pillows and then take her hand and reach out yes if you go into your corner you freeze and you wait until the shower passes you're going to really damage your relationship not that it hasn't been damaged yet but this will not give you the repair and the return and the reconnection that you want Thank you for telling me that.

30:32Thank you.