In short
Two male best friends (met in preschool; South Asian immigrant families) explore what “best friend” means, why their closeness has drifted, and how cultural/masculinity norms make it hard to say vulnerable truths. They identify a core conflict: one prioritizes self-development/achievement and pulls back; the other fears being secondary and retreats when they don’t feel chosen.
Guest backgrounds
Both grew up in the South with few South Asian families. One is Muslim, raised in a Catholic school environment; the other is Catholic. Their parents’ immigration paths differ (one father came undocumented to New York then to Atlanta; both families faced financial strain and different ways of communicating/asking children for help). Both are deeply family-oriented and support parents financially.
Key claims
Friendship requires equity and mutual reciprocity; “power vs connection” norms for men block open emotional sharing; unspoken conversations and “jabs” about living well without the other erode security.
Notable examples
Preschool reunion after ~10 years; parents’ competitive bragging; one friend’s year-and-a-half estrangement from his mother at 16; both avoided calling each other “best friend” in college due to fear of betrayal/neediness; they propose a recurring ritual (weekend together every ~8 weeks) to preserve the bond.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring the Meaning of Friendship
1:11 to 3:40
Discussion on the nature and meaning of friendships over time.
“Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto.”
The Evolution of Their Friendship
3:40 to 6:20
Personal anecdotes illustrating the development and challenges of their friendship.
“I think that one of the essential questions I understood that you have between both of you is do we share a passion or how has this passion now become more of a competition?”
Cultural Backgrounds and Shared Experiences
6:20 to 11:45
Diving into cultural backgrounds and the impact on their friendship dynamics.
“where they go in and out of each other's life physically while always remaining deeply connected emotionally.”
Reflections on Shared Pain and Understanding
11:45 to 14:00
Discussing how shared experiences shape their friendship and understanding of each other.
“But my parents, sure, definitely the biggest difference is the education, but they had a really rough time in this country, Like really, really rough time.”
The Weight of Childhood Memories
14:00 to 14:16
Explore how childhood experiences shape our perceptions and relationships.
“It's amazing that the little details that we stay with of how we internalize someone when we were young.”
The Weight of Childhood Memories
14:27 to 15:52
Explore how childhood experiences shape our perceptions and relationships.
“Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms.”
The Weight of Childhood Memories
16:01 to 16:28
Explore how childhood experiences shape our perceptions and relationships.
“Back-to-school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be.”
Financial Anxieties and Family Dynamics
16:28 to 18:10
Discussion on how families handle financial struggles and communication.
“I remember when I actually learned about your family's financial anxieties, because I actually, I didn't know.”
Navigating Self-Protection and Vulnerability
18:10 to 20:04
Exploring the tension between being open and protecting oneself in relationships.
“I don't want to make it seem like we come from the exact same background.”
Cultural Differences in Family Responsibilities
20:04 to 21:50
Examination of how cultural backgrounds influence family roles and expectations.
“you back, guiding the way that you had to make decisions.”
Show all 25 chapters
The Burden of Interdependence
21:50 to 24:12
Exploring the emotional weight of familial expectations and interdependence.
“And they would do everything behind closed doors.”
Pursuing Individuality vs. Family Loyalty
24:12 to 26:17
Discussion on the balance between individual aspirations and familial duties.
“Like growing, going through that, I had to, I split.”
The Impact of Relationships on Personal Growth
26:17 to 28:07
How friendships and familial ties influence personal development and choices.
“But I still feel that tension unless I can do something that is just so much greater than they would have expected me or that I would have been able to.”
Navigating Friendship Dynamics
28:07 to 35:00
The speakers discuss their friendship and the challenges of prioritizing personal growth over their bond.
“because I also look up to you and I admire you, like I've tried to live that way too.”
Navigating Friendship Dynamics
35:11 to 35:34
The speakers discuss their friendship and the challenges of prioritizing personal growth over their bond.
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Navigating Friendship Dynamics
36:38 to 36:56
The speakers discuss their friendship and the challenges of prioritizing personal growth over their bond.
“Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be.”
The Complexity of Sharing Relationships
37:11 to 42:04
They explore the importance of their friendship, insecurities, and the impact of early experiences on their relationships.
“And then after that, it's about sitting quietly with what has just been said.”
Navigating Relationship Growth and Challenges
42:04 to 45:45
Explore the complexities of ending romantic relationships and how personal growth intertwines with friendships.
“She's having a hard time, but I know it's not right for me.”
The Dynamics of Friendship and Support
45:45 to 49:18
Discuss the importance of mutual support in friendships and the challenges of maintaining connections over time.
“I think it's more than just an investment that isn't mutual.”
Masculinity and Emotional Vulnerability
49:18 to 54:18
Delve into the societal expectations surrounding masculinity and the challenges men face in expressing emotional needs.
“just like because I want you to be in my life, like in my life.”
Rituals to Strengthen Friendship Bonds
54:18 to 56:00
Consider ways to create rituals that foster ongoing connections and commitment in friendships.
“My father's best friend broke his heart.”
Establishing a Ritual of Friendship
56:00 to 57:18
Learn how to create lasting friendships through rituals and commitments.
“Every two months, we take a weekend of what other kind of things you enjoy doing when you're…”
Conflicts in Friendship
57:18 to 58:49
Explore the internal and relational conflicts that can arise in friendships.
“That, on the meta level, it's exciting that I'm even experiencing something like that.”
The Need for Reconnection
58:49 to 59:06
Understand the importance of reconnecting with friends after feeling neglected.
“And now let's see if they will actually take on some of these rituals.”
The Need for Reconnection
1:00:40 to 1:01:01
Understand the importance of reconnecting with friends after feeling neglected.
“Back to School Season is officially here and DeeDee's has everything on your list.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. We'll see you next time.
0:53into an I'm so glad we did. Visit amazon.com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.
1:35It's one of those things where it's like, ah, yeah, you know, we both say, like, we're best friends, but, like, are we?
1:44Do you have a best friend? And what does best friend mean to you? And is your best friend your oldest friend? Or is your best friend the one with whom you share the most today? Who hasn't had to ask themselves, if someone is my friend, what does that friendship mean? Has that friendship outlived itself? Neither of us had really been prioritizing the friendship anymore, I think, in the same way that maybe we had when we were younger. So we met in preschool. I think a lot of personalities, a lot of our experiences, a lot of who we are is very intertwined at a pretty subconscious level. So much of our identities and our ego is actually weirdly intertwined and wrapped up with seeing the other, appraising the other in some way.
2:42Friendship is the most free choice relationship. It's a relationship that is mutual, reciprocal, and it's very difficult to be the friend of someone for whom we are not the friend. So it has something that demands equity. There's just tensions that exist between us two, and we're both kind of strong personalities, and there's a little bit of competitive spirit that comes from that. I mean, it really is like a brotherly relationship in that way. There's just been kind of drifting apart. For so long, I've always thought of him as my best friend. I think only maybe in the past year or two, I've really started to question that.
3:25Everybody has questioned their friendships at some point in their lives. And I wanted to explore that unique relationship called my best friend.
3:40I think that one of the essential questions I understood that you have between both of you is do we share a passion or how has this passion now become more of a competition? What is that friction that we both experience? So there is no major divergent narrative here. It's not like you think our story is one thing and a new thing that the story is something else. Yeah. So part of us being here is the conversations you haven't had. Right. The conversations you have in your head and the ones that may emerge that you have no idea about. Yeah. Yeah, wow. And we have time. Yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah, I think there's a lot of stuff we've sort of scratched the surface a little bit to go deeper, but we haven't really gone deep enough.
4:34We haven't really spent time in the deep end. And a part of it is because we're now in different cities, I think. And we used to spend so much time together where it was easy to really understand and intuitively know where the other person was at. And we were going through life together. Can you share a little bit about the history? Yeah, definitely. So we went to preschool together, which is where we met. And our families met. And from what they say and from our memories back then, we were best friends in preschool. and then we actually didn't see each other for about a decade. Fate sort of brought us back together.
5:10We were working in the same place, and I recognized his face. Yeah, I remember being like, oh, that guy looks familiar. Your families knew each other too? Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So his dad ran a restaurant in the community. It was like the only Indian restaurant, and my parents made the website for it. And so we would go to the restaurant all the time. It was my favorite restaurant growing up, and our parents would just sort of like chat about each other, just checking in, you know, how's he doing? How am I doing? I actually think in this style of South Asian parenting and talking about kids is like a pretty competitive style of communication.
5:43For sure. Oh, he's been doing this. What are you doing in sports? What are you doing in academics? There was like... All these different... They don't just tell stories, they brag. There's always a little bit of bragging involved. Yeah, for sure. Their parents would compare notes and tell each other what each child is doing and they would report that to their kids so that when 10 years later they met again, they kind of were updated. Then they met for a few years. They were in different schools, but very tight. And then they parted again during college years. And they have had a kind of an accordion relationship where they go in and out of each other's life physically while always remaining deeply connected emotionally.
6:32Yeah, I mean, when we met again, I had never come across anybody in my life until that point that I felt more similar to. We grew up in a pretty small town where most people, it's sort of simple-minded, simple life with goals and what they're trying to do, what gave them joy. How did your parents get there, to that small town? Yeah, I mean, it's not a tiny town, but it's definitely a, you know, southern neighborhood. Like when you say we share, do you include backgrounds? Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, you know, South Asian immigrant parents. From? My parents are from India. His parents are from Bangladesh.
7:10My parents came to America and, you know, they were placed in a really rural town in Alabama by a visa sponsorship organization. That's where I was born. That's where my sister was born. And then when I was about three or four, they moved to Atlanta to work at Home Depot. though? Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the differentiators that I always carried as well, is that my family came through a less traditional route. My dad actually came to the States undocumented, to New York, actually. And he had a sibling who, you know, legally lived in Atlanta. And so she was like, oh, come here. There's a lot of trees.
7:45It's like Bangladesh. And so he came to Atlanta with really just like$500 in his pocket. He just worked really hard, you know, got married then decided to open that restaurant and that's kind of how we began. Your mom is also Bangladesh? Yes and my mom also no schooling beyond high school level so my parents are just a bit more like traditional and also didn't come from like an educated path and so that was I think like a differentiator as well and I felt that also as well growing up. A differentiator between the two of you you mean? Yeah, definitely. Because for so long growing up, there was so much anxiety around their lack of education.
8:27And they've carried that insecurity themselves pretty deeply, but wanted to level up in terms of socioeconomic class and strivers in that sense. And so I think it even made them actually nervous to ever develop a relationship much deeper with his parents. And I actually remember talking to my parents about that being like, oh, you know, we could all hang out. And, you know, I remember my mom was like, oh, you know, like, they don't want to hang out with us. Like, we don't have any schooling or anything like that. That's crazy to hear. Did you know that? I did not know that. Yeah. So, but I think one of the similar things is we were one of the few South Asian families in our town.
9:06So regardless of the different directions that we came, that was the common linkage there for sure. And growing up, there was no other person that I met who loved their traditional heritage as much as also being quite comfortable in predominantly white spaces, which is where we grew up. I think one distinction I also always carried is that he's Catholic, was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school. I'm Muslim and so I always felt a little bit more of an outsider in that way. I also... In the middle? Oh yeah, big time in that town. I used to, you know, I remember when Osama bin Laden was killed, people were like, oh yo, sorry to hear about your uncle.
9:50Like really intense Islamophobia growing up and I think that is also something that I envied, you know, it would just make me wonder. Do you know all that? Yeah, this is all, I mean, yeah, no, not really. I mean, some stuff I was obviously aware of, just knowing that he's Muslim. And my family. No, it's not that he is. It's what that experience. Yeah, it means to, I really wish we. And then he says a little. Yeah, it means a lot. I try to downplay it, but. Don't. Okay. Or at least not here. Okay, okay. I think it makes me. Here is okay. We will take it as it was. Not as you've tried to make it.
10:34It was shitty. It was definitely shitty. And so I think it's easier for me to downplay it so that I can relate on a level to, like, you know, best friend. And so... But you just told your best friend some nuances of your experience. Yeah. I guess I never, like, put those pieces together. Let's hear how. yeah I mean well I think there was nothing in your story that I didn't know right but in terms of how that story made you feel different from me and the the amount that it made you feel different from me is is yeah it makes me sad for a couple reasons obviously because I honestly feel like this would have been really great to have talked about earlier on the difference there because honestly, I think the gap that you feel for me is not the same gap that I grew up feeling with you.
11:31My context is relative to the people around me, much more of a gap than my gap with you to the extent where even knowing all these differences with you, it never felt like there was a difference. Obviously, there is. You feel it. That's your experience. But my parents, sure, definitely the biggest difference is the education, but they had a really rough time in this country, Like really, really rough time. My dad was here by himself for seven years after getting engaged for a week, you know, and had to like work in a factory for most of that time. And like, even though I went to like a Catholic school, like my parents went in serious debt for that.
12:08Did not grow up, you know, super well off at all. And like felt like, you know, I mean, I got Islamophobia too, even though I'm not. I mean, just the only person, I was in an all white space in school my entire life, which was like a space where I envied you. Like you got to grow up with diversity. And like I always wished I went to public school because of that and like did not enjoy going to a school where I didn't have that kind of experience.
12:36Or even like enough experience to feel comfortable being around other South Asian people or just not getting to do that. And my parents never were able to deeply connect with people who weren't from the same exact community as them. And all of those were things that I felt like, yes, our experiences are different, but they're both so much more different than everybody else's here that we connect really deeply because of that. Yeah, so I guess it just makes me sad that you've gone so much of your life feeling like there was that much of a gap and not sharing that because I would have loved to have stepped in more there.
13:12Yeah, I would say, I mean, I think I carried that gap earlier in our friendship.
13:21From the moment they met, they shared a ton together. But here, as they walked in, stuff was pouring out of them, of the ways that they had each observed the other, the other's family, with things that they had actually never said out loud. And also pieces of their own experience, particularly more painful aspects. And it reminded me, when my childhood friends meet my adult friends, The adult friends always want to know how was she when she was little. And what's so amazing is the way that we take each other in at six, what we perceive, how we understood the family. It's amazing that the little details that we stay with of how we internalize someone when we were young.
14:14We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.
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16:28I remember when I actually learned about your family's financial anxieties, because I actually, I didn't know. I thought y 'all were like pretty like well off. I didn't actually know that like there was all of this underneath, because on the surface, you see one thing, and then that detail, I definitely helped that. Yeah, I mean, my family definitely tried to present. Like, my parents definitely tried to present differently than when I was there. And, like, we just don't talk about that stuff. Like, I didn't grow up, we didn't talk about anything, so I didn't know. But it was clear, like, my family, you know, we just didn't talk about money and we didn't do things.
17:04We never really did anything extravagantly. My parents would just save up all their money just to go to India every few years. Yeah. I mean, that's the reason I've been doing my own thing, you know. I didn't want to be a burden financially to my parents. I've been paying for everything in my life since I was 16, specifically so that I don't have to add to that burden, specifically so that I can try to help them and give back for their sacrifice, which I know you talk about and you feel as well. Yeah, absolutely. You both help your families? Yeah. He definitely does more so. Yeah, like regular payments to them.
17:45One of the things that I really admire is he, I don't know if this is. Okay, cool. Like, you know, launched his own company. And it's something that I really want to do. I don't have a safety net. Like, as soon as I stop making money, that's an income source that's lost to the family. And they can't support me doing this. And so, like, I always really admired. And Envy is too, I think. Like, Envy is too. Yeah, I mean, I think that's accurate. I don't want to make it seem like we come from the exact same background. I think there's obviously a difference there. And one that I absolutely recognize.
18:21And I think part of the reason I didn't share at all is because I didn't feel like it was my space to share. Because you had more that you were dealing with. So I didn't want to take away from that. That's tough. Some of the things that you don't address, your intention is to protect the other.
18:42I think that's where the lack of... Finish the sentence. Yeah, I mean, you know, as much as I felt like we were in this together, this is someone I can relate to, someone who shares all these things that I feel. Yeah. You've just always been so authentic, so open in ways that I've always been very self-protective. You know, I never talk about anything that's like a point of stress. Like growing up, I didn't. And you were the first person I felt like, okay, I still don't really need to talk about it, but I at least feel very comfortable here. When he talks like an open book, what's it like for you?
19:18Total just admiration. How can someone be like this? How can someone go through this world that I feel like I'm also going through and be so comfortable sharing about themselves? It's been, I think, the part that has been both I want to emulate and that I've been, And if we're talking about, you know, like jealousy, envy, or like, you know, that's something that I absolutely don't feel like I have. And it's part of the reason why you cultivate such deep relationships so quickly. And I just don't let myself really get there. And I don't know if I'm like, you know, capable to do it super well. So yeah, so I felt like we were in this together.
19:59But also, I did feel like there was more tension in your life, like pulling at you, holding you back, guiding the way that you had to make decisions. whereas I did still feel like I could sort of choose my own path here. When they talk about being one among a few South Asian families in the South, they emphasize the similarities. But when they start to peel the layers of the differences between them and the nuances of their backgrounds and their respective family cultures, the differences become much more manifest. What they admire, what they envy, what they compete about, what they hid, what they long for, and what they share.
20:47Say more. Well, I mean, your family was asking of you things directly. Whereas my parents never talked about things. They were under duress all the time, but they never shared anything. and as a result they never asked me directly to do anything in a way that his family was always asking him to like help here, do this. What do you think makes for that difference? I do think there's a level of financial security, I'm sure, to some degree, but also culture. In what sense? In our family's culture, there's just not really like an asking for help ever. Asking for help from the children or period? Meaning the parents take care of the kids and the kids are meant to be kids versus the parents and the kids are part of one system and everybody has responsibilities and everybody takes care of everyone.
21:45Yeah. I mean, I think that's what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's very, very heavy. as even you were talking about the asks I was just feeling the burdens on my body of just like oh god all of the things yeah that I have that I'm being asked in a certain kind of a western sense of the word you were defined as a child yes and you were defined as a little adult yeah yeah that's the I think that's a big because my parents were always wanting to protect my sister and I from having to deal with this world. That's right. And they would do everything behind closed doors. They would do everything without us knowing, no matter what that took.
22:28And you associate that to your parents, to their particular culture, to their being Catholic Indians, to which part of it or to whatever. I think to our family culture. They're both older siblings. We have huge family. They're both the oldest of like 40 plus first cousins. and in growing up in India they were in his role they were in his role and they wanted to make sure that their kids that have to be didn't have to exactly oh my god interesting yeah so you in a way grew up with the notion that I'm going to be so independent that I don't have to ask them for anything yeah and you grew up with the notion that I'm going to make it so that I can give them everything they need that is the dream yeah my heart goes out to both of you yes because both are very, very caring, thoughtful stances of which some of it was articulated early on and some of it you intuitively understood and are now putting words to.
23:29Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we both really related on the care for our families. Yeah. Like deep, deep feeling that there was things that we needed to alleviate. But I think that breakdown makes it a clear distinction of like the different ways that we internalized and approached it. Like I think growing up, like your parents found a lot of meaning and joy in seeing you like have fun. Whereas my parents wanted me to have happiness and joy, but it was so rooted in like this family web. I will say it hasn't been a light, easy path of my parents at all. Like growing, going through that, I had to, I split.
24:15from my parents you know like I had a ton of for a full year and a half like just just didn't talk to my my mom in order to in order to start from scratch do my own thing carve my own path and not feel not feel bound to a world that I didn't choose um so it's a it's a kind of a tension between my loyalty to my family and my pursuit of my individual achievements and America absolutely It was an East meets West conflict. It's very powerful what you're saying, right? You're kind of dividing this a little bit in a dualistic way, right? The interdependence versus the self-reliance. If I wanted to be able to finally pursue, and not only did I have to not talk about anything, which was your first degree, but the next degree was I had to cut off for a bit in order to not hear them inside of me, which of course doesn't really work this way.
25:17And so the idea, you know, you pay a price. You pay a price of the disconnect inside. You get to achieve, but you also get to numb yourself and to cut off parts of you. You don't just cut off your parents. And you end up feeling at some point I have to accept my rhythm. it won't go in the same speed because I can never think what do I want separately from how does it affect them. It's a different way of placing the self. And you're 20, what, five, both of you? So it's a, you know, this is also developmental. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, and that was when I was 16. That you didn't speak. Yeah. You know, looking back, it's the experience that I have the most guilt around, without a doubt, because, I mean, there was a fracture in my relationship with them and there's been healing.
26:20But I still feel that tension unless I can do something that is just so much greater than they would have expected me or that I would have been able to. It's to be able to just, you know, pay off all their debts and like, you know, let them travel, let them relax. Because that would justify why you had to do what you had to do. Exactly. But they may be wiser than you on that. Maybe they actually, if you even could explain that to them. Yeah. That in itself. Yeah. I think I'm just afraid. And what would happen? I know that that's not part of the friendship. Yeah. But I also think he could be extraordinarily helpful to you on that.
27:00Yeah. Yeah. it's like you are the person he looks at when he wants to think about pursuing himself you look to him when you are looking at how to maintain connection and these two are hand go hand in hand actually they don't exist without each other I bet that this way that you think of attachment to your parents and like the way that it relates to your own self-growth I'm sure it manifests in our relationship as well as like very close friends because bang yeah how I was waiting for that yeah I mean like I feel like sometimes in our friendship um and i i like hear you make the effort sometimes but i think sometimes i worry that like the growth is more important than the like relationship growth you mean the achievement yeah accomplishments yeah um success like your journey um that like you're on and uh because I also look up to you and I admire you, like I've tried to live that way too.
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28:15And it's just caused me insane distress. Like I've tried to push my family and it's just, it's just so hard, like it's really hard for me. And that's why I've had to accept like that it's just not also me. I actually don't really know about this period of a year-long fracture from your mother, but I also cannot even imagine it. Like, I cannot. It's beyond conception for me. How does that resonate for you? You are more interested in your pursuits and your self-development and your achievements than in the importance of your relationships, which includes him. Yeah. I've heard it from every partner I've ever had as well.
29:07So I think there's probably something to it. I've always been someone who's had very specific kind of change in mind that's taken precedence over the people in my life or even my own joy. I don't really do things for joy often. And I've just been very reactive in my relationships in general. We just worked, you know, like we, there's so much overlap. There's so much connection. We have such a similar sense of adventure and curiosity that when we were in the same space, especially early on when there weren't other people in our lives like that, the just, there was an explosion and there was no proactive.
29:52Let's do this. Let's work on this. Let's build this. and now I don't think I've like actively prioritized it and I really do want to be more intentional about it but I haven't been. Does he make sure that you stay in touch? He's the one who reaches out? I think we both do every once in a while. I think it's changed recently. I've pulled back in the past couple of years. Because what? Finish your thought. Because I mean I was just like is it really about like our best friendship or like are you trying to meet other like I was sometimes feeling like Like, was it just like the adventures and the like growth that you experienced in our relationship?
30:29Or was it actually like, you know, us being best friends? Because I felt like there were periods of time where I was like, if he just meets another person who will offer him more growth opportunities in terms of self and career, you will be more in tuned and interested in that as opposed to our friendship. Dang. Yeah, I mean, you'll always be my best friend. And there's never going to be a connection. But is there truth to this? I mean, I can understand where that's coming from. And I absolutely think my behavior and where my mind was leading me in places, that's super fair. And I'm sorry. I appreciate the apology.
31:15But I pulled back intentionally. You know, a relationship is like a rubber band. You know, like there's, I didn't want it to get to like a point where it ever snapped. So it was like, I needed to create some of that breathing room for us to like recognize that there was tension emerging. So I always have faith. Can I also say, I mean, you know, I can see where you're coming from. I also did feel something similar towards you. Because you're a super dynamic person. You make friends super easily. And you're always doing different things. And when we went off to college, you know, I knew you were making really deep friendships with people.
31:54And I wasn't. I mean, I was very much like I wasn't trying to, but was making a lot of different connections and acquaintances and, you know, people who I know. But wasn't making deep friendships. And that probably scared me. I mean, it did scare me. but I don't think we really spent enough time validating what we meant to each other and what we wanted to mean to each other at the time I think that was the nature of growing up in Georgia we were these two male best friends it was just so homophobic in that area that like even just saying things like talking about how much the relationship meant to one another was just like taboo you know too intimate Yeah, too intimate.
32:40We never, and I think, so what that happened for me going to college was, I was like, yo, like, I mean, I was like, you know, he's probably, like, basically, like, I think I may have been throwing myself and trying to connect with so many people. Hey, see it. Yeah, because I thought you were making, like, I didn't think I was important as a best friend to you. And so I was throwing myself into that because I didn't feel secure enough in our friendship to just trust that like that was always there. But I will say that for many years in college, like I avoided calling anyone like a best friend. Yeah.
33:21Because that was, I was always, you know, my best friend is you. Would it have been like a betrayal? Yeah, it would have felt like a betrayal. And then honestly, like I think growing up, it was a lot of me trying to keep the relationship going and the friendship going. that I was like, oh, like, what if I'm stifling your growth? And that made me, like, insecure. And maybe I was like, I think there was one thing that… Hold on, hold on. Yeah. Take a breath. Yeah, yeah. A lot coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Just take a moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:57I remember… Hold on. Oh.
34:02in the course of the session every time they would start speaking truth they'd start talking faster and faster and getting more and more revved up and the anxiety that accompanied the revelations was such that I had to continuously temper create rhythm slow down breathe listen and integrate. And every time they'd start to speed up again, as if they wanted to protect each other so much that they wouldn't say things that would hurt the other or annoy the other, and it just was pouring out. And then again, slow down, breathe, and integrate. We are in the midst of our session. there is still so much to talk about.
35:00We need to take a brief break. So stay with us.
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37:10Sometimes it's about what needs to be said. And then after that, it's about sitting quietly with what has just been said.
37:26part of what you're saying is we felt very very close but we've never told each other how close we feel but I knew that I couldn't call somebody else my best friend because he would be disloyal to you that's super powerful yeah wow that's some real shit it. Yeah. Sounds like we let a bunch of our own insecurities about our relationship get in the way. I remember, I mean, so many occasions where you would tell me something really important in your life, and then you would follow it up with talking about how other people that you've shared this with have responded in different ways. And maybe that was you trying to protect yourself for sure but to me that was oh he doesn't he doesn't really need this relationship that much like I feel like it's little things like that yeah and I'm I was quiet you know I was sharing that obviously so I tell you about my other friends so that you don't think that I am putting all my wait on you and that I'm too needy.
38:45Exactly. And then I hear you tell me about the other friends. And so then I think I'm not that important after all. Yeah. And so each of you who are so important to each other leave these conversations thinking you're not that important after all. How ironic. Yeah. Yeah, that is true.
39:09He just expressed the core of the conflict, and I didn't want them to just ride over it. In fact, he applied because he was feeling more and more that he was the best friend of the past, that the pursuit of self-development and growth and achievement and success was such that he was in search of another best friend, the one that would accompany him into the next phase. And since he had chosen relationships over self, he was moving at a different pace and that would become the fracture in their relationship. And they needed to just sit with that for a moment. This is a dilemma that actually transcends their origins, their immigrant backgrounds.
40:10This is a piece in every friendship where is your individual pursuit more important than our bond? And if I start to feel that our bond is secondary to you, then I'm going to retreat. Do you share your love lives with each other? Do you talk about that? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. That was another area where I think early on was a big difference between us because I didn't really have a love life for a while because of a lot of insecurities I had. What stood in the way for you when you say insecurities? Well, so this is one of the factors that led to my breaking point with my parents. When I was in middle school, you know, I was asked on a date and I really wanted to go and finally worked up the courage to tell my mom and she completely shut me down.
41:07And it was like a traumatic experience for me at the time, because especially I'd been thinking about this for days and days and days before finally figuring out the words, testing it out, finally sharing it. First time, really, I felt like I was sharing something that was off path from what they wanted of me. and that was attention I carried with me for so long and I always wondered you know how can I do something that my parents would be so not supportive of um you know so it took me it was until I got to college and like that I really was in a serious relationship for the first time and me and you were you did those girls them uh yeah I dated I dated a woman in in during college um we ended up dating for about a year and it was actually crazy when we finally started sharing We were going through a lot of similar things and really crazy similarities in our relationships.
41:56We both started dating our first serious partners around the same time, actually. There came a period when we both realized we wanted to end our romantic partnerships with our partners around the same time as well. He was like, it's really hard. She's having a hard time, but I know it's not right for me. this is where my growth is headed. I'm going to move in this direction. Whereas when I did it and I saw just the grief, just like the challenge and also like how I felt. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I really love you. Like you're a really important person in my life. Like what am I doing here?
42:35So there was a lot of like thinking and I was really like looking at your example the whole time. Why do you put them as opposed to each other? Your personal growth and your relationships, don't they go hand in hand? we used to have a lot of conversations about this. Are romantic relationships actually a tether towards ultimate growth and achievement? And I believe that. That they are? I think I was under a lot of tension. I didn't know. I was looking up to you and I wanted to be like you. And I knew that... But it actually has been a bane for him. Yeah. And the way I ended that relationship was awful.
43:21Yeah, yeah. And I wish I didn't do it that way. I've learned a lot since then. Meaning? I didn't really know. Hold on a sec. Yes. This is New York City. Yes, yeah. It's a metaphor for the emergency crisis I was in at the time. Yeah,
43:41meaning, you know, I just didn't know how to communicate and really have a conversation about it. It was really kind of came out of nowhere. And why did you want to end things? For that same split that he's talking about? I felt like there was more of my energy consistently that was going towards the relationship than I wanted. Do you never think that the relationship can give you energy that you can then use for your career pursuits? That it actually is an emboldening thing rather than a suck? It's a really good point. I mean, it's something that I need to open myself up more to that idea. There's a part of you that sees relationships, and that's what you describe with your parents, as restrictive.
44:31Yeah. You don't see them as generative. Yeah. It's like me versus. Yeah. And the relationship takes from me rather than the relationship offers me, opens me, energizes me, you name it. It's not a jail. Biggest tension I feel with allowing myself to go there is this fear that this person's goals, this person's energies, this person's desires, and what ours will be together will shift me away from some goals that I have that I care really deeply about. Because I made that split so early, I feel like I can do things on my own, but and I just feel like things will deviate me from the path and I think like a lot of my emotional structures are probably deeply rooted with feeling very profound connections with people like you and my sister but he also ends up feeling like he becomes a deviation from your path yeah I well it's weird because the reason I feel like I think my I feel comfortable doing things on my own is because I know I have such profound connections with people like him as long as he make sure that the connection is preserved.
45:40But if he steps back like he did in the last two years, do you notice it? I definitely have. Yeah. After how long? No, throughout. It's definitely have recognized it. But I do sense. I think it's more than just an investment that isn't mutual. I think there's actually been some active growing apart. Say more about the growing apart. There's like tension when like the last couple of years when we've just like hung out. It's felt like we're not only like sitting with that tension of not talking about it but we are doing things consistently saying little things here and there that add to that tension you know mentioning different things that we're each doing in a way that like yeah I just went on this trip here and like I just met these friends and here's an experience I just went on that is maybe something we would have done together back in the day and it almost feels like a like a jab like here's something that I am capable of doing this without you like each one jabs the other with statements that say, look how great my life is without you.
46:39Something like that, yeah. But I think in terms of relationships, I still am, I see, I do see this as like an additive relationship to me. Best friends is not what can you do for me. It's not organized around interest, ROI.
47:02It's a different level. and if you start to feel like we're each showing the other hey cool without you and you start to do it as a way also of saying i don't really miss you
47:22go ahead yeah i think that's just spot like i was definitely i you know i think it's coming back to not knowing where the other stood because you were doing some amazing things over the years. And like I said, I've looked up to you for so long. For a while, I didn't know whether I had any value in that chain. And I think there was a period where there was definitely the jabs where it was like, oh, I actually don't need you either. You know what? I'm cool. and was hoping that like me doing that would elicit some sort of reaction of, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, like what about us? And I think... Do you travel together?
48:09Have you? Have we? I don't think so. Oh my God. Your mind maybe? Yeah, your mind, yeah. Yes, yes. Internal journeys, you've done many. Yeah, we'd never really been so intentional about like, you know, carving out that time for each other because we had been so accustomed to like being like, oh, you know, our friendship is so strong. We don't need to like intentionally maintain it. Like it's just a natural thing. You know, there's no work or effort that needs to be put into it. You know, it's really not the case. Not at all. It's crazy because, I mean, he's just someone who, you're just someone who, we were talking about this earlier, but you are really open and sharing with everybody that it's always been hard for me to know.
48:53So is there anything that's just preserved for me? That's where a lot for me is like, oh, you're going to be good. You're going to create support systems everywhere you go. Whereas in my world, it wasn't that at all. You know, I internalize more things. So yeah, so it's just interesting how that kind of adds to this too. Well, you're my favorite person to like take on the world with. I realize and recognize it now. When I said I want us to be lifelong friends, just like because I want you to be in my life, like in my life. not like checking in here and there, but like, you know, be best friends.
49:28And I know for myself that I need to stop thinking about the amount of value I need to like provide or create in order to like feel like you can justify this friendship. And I know that that's also a personal journey that you're trying to understand more around. But like that was how I was feeling for some time. I mean, I love you, man. I love you too, man. It's just like, I want you to know how much like you really do mean to me too. Because you're not just like my favorite friend. You're the single best human being I've ever met. You really are. I really think you're just like an incredible person.
50:07So like there's no, I don't like the notion of, like I've never thought about this as like a value exchange. If anything, I've thought about the same exact thing of like, as someone who is so, like I think of friendship and relationship being so grounded in sharing. And as someone who is so willing to share and comfortable sharing, do I offer anything uniquely here? Can I ask you something? Yeah. I could ask so many different things. I'm just curious in the moment, what do you think has made it so that you've never said any of these things to each other? Being freaking mad. Yeah, I think part, like, I feel the resistance of just like our upbringings and just being like, Upbringings or men?
50:51Or men in your upbringing? Men in our specific upbringing. I mean, I don't think that other men necessarily would have an easier time. Two straight guys who can admit to the love that they feel for each other. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, probably. So what is the taboo when you say we're men, cisgendered straight guys? I mean, we're men. So what? What do we and what don't we? Yeah, I think we don't necessarily share our feelings about each other openly. I can do what I need to do. You know, I'm powerful. I don't need anybody else. I don't have vulnerabilities. That aspect. This belief in true independence as well.
51:39I don't think we've ever talked about actually like needing one another. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we even mentioned it in this conversation as well either. No, you were talking about how you were trying to make clear to the other that you don't need them. Exactly. What are the other taboos? I mean, there is a power element to it as well. I don't want to feel ever less in power in relation to you, I think, because it would create some sort of submissive or needy. I think we've used that word a couple of times here. Every time you talk about not wanting to be needy, you cross your arms. Oh, yeah.
52:23I've never felt I have more power or I'm more powerful or anything like that. I don't want to. I think there's actually, when you say that, I think there's actually a part of me that values achievement and growth and impact more so than the relational component. And I wonder if he's actually right. Like, this is how you must be in order to achieve. You know, my friend and colleague, Terry Real, he says, under patriarchy, men can either feel powerful or connected. But they can't necessarily have both at the same time. That is exactly how I feel.
53:10And I feel like I'm on the flip side, you know, wanting the exact. it's like yin and yang cultural systems change you more than anybody know this you represent cultures in transition inside of you so can you do it vis-a-vis these norms these supposed contradictions of either or either powerful or connected and so now it becomes the powerful and the connected he's the powerful you're the connected right which is a while you grapple with the part of you that wants what you call achievement power but it comes at the price of disconnect which is what you've emphasized it's efficient i've succeeded i don't need anybody let me give you the list of everything i can do for which i don't need other people but he then becomes the part of you that is disavowed yeah and part of the distance that I think has been created between the two of you is because each one has become a representation of the part of you that you struggle with.
54:18Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That's very real. Do your fathers have best friends? My father's best friend broke his heart. That is the story. They were business partners. And then my father, who is much more of a relate, he is a prominent community organizer and has helped hundreds of Bangladeshi migrants come to the States. And basically, my dad tells me this story. He's like, we were best friends in the village growing up from preschool. He married his sister. Like, my father's best friend married his sister, his favorite sister. And they were in business together. And basically, his friend was more driven and just cut him off in the business.
55:04and my father told me then, friends are only this. It's family that's the most important. Your friends are great, but you never know when they might stab you. And I think that's what creates this protective response in me because my father is incredibly protective and carries a lot of sorrow from relationships that he feels like he overinvested in and then people didn't reciprocate in return. And because he's so community organizing and he feels like he did not achieve his dreams because he spent so much time trying to help and connect with others. Wow. But of course, I can't not think that the same dance is happening right here, right?
55:49How often do you see each other? It's been a long time. Nowadays? Like a couple of times a year, maybe. Right. So what some people do is to have rituals. Every two months, we take a weekend of what other kind of things you enjoy doing when you're… So many things. Give me a few. Yeah. We could go to some basketball games together. Yeah. We could go hiking together, I'm sure. Yeah. Film something together one day would be really cool. Like trying to make a small movie. Yeah. When we're both… So why don't you say we have a ritual. We meet every eight weeks. Let's do it, man. Yeah. Be down for that.
56:28You know, we spend a weekend together or a long weekend together, one time here, one time at my place, one time to something else. And have it be the ritual you never broke. Yeah. So that even when you have families, one day if you do, or partners, you just say this, and it may not be two months at that time, but there is a pillar. There's a thing. And then one day you'll say for the past 30 years. Wow. Every ex. Yeah. That thing is an immovable. Yeah. It's an ode to us. Wow. Dang. I think it would be nice for each of us to make a commitment like that to each other. For sure. Yeah. This doesn't scare me at all.
57:16This is exciting. Let's do it. Let's do it. That, on the meta level, it's exciting that I'm even experiencing something like that. So this is not a long-term commitment. This is a reliable gift. Ooh. A reliable gift. A reliable gift, I like that. Friendship, my reliable gift.
57:41Something happened in their friendship that expressed an internal conflict that became a relational conflict so that each of them became the representation of the part that the other one was struggling with and felt ambivalent about. One struggled with the side of him that wanted to maintain connections at the price of experiencing a compromise of the self. And the other experienced the price of maintaining his pursuits and his focus and on his own individual compass at the price of losing his connection to the people that mattered to him. And they were each hurt by that. Am I not important enough for you when you keep climbing and doing your own individual stuff?
58:34Said one. And the other, am I not important to you when you have so many other important people in your life? And they were hurt. And they felt neglected by the other. And they needed to reconnect. And now let's see if they will actually take on some of these rituals.
58:58This episode of Where Should We Begin? was done in collaboration with our friends at NPR and Invisibilia. To hear more from their season on friendship and to hear Astaire talk about the nature of friendships, just go to npr.org or look for Invisibilia wherever you get your podcasts.
59:29You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esteraperel.com.
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From the publisher
This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? In a Where Should We Begin first, Esther sits down with two friends. They’ve been close for so long they feel like brothers, with all of the baggage that comes with family but none of the certainty. There are things that go unspoken between them, issues they have skimmed over in their two decades of friendship. Esther creates the space for the conversation they didn't know quite where to begin. This session was recorded in collaboration with NPR's Invisibilia and a sibling episode with Esther can be heard on their podcast this week as well.
Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter
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