He Loves Her, His Family Rejects Her

0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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1:29They met on Reddit. Reddit is not a thing in Brazil. Like, no one knows about it. But I knew about it because I was reading an article about sex-starved marriages. Which was the fate that they were both in? I was just on the internet and saw a post And I replied, which led to a flirtation, which led to a relationship, which led to the dissolution of their marriages, which led to her moving to small town Midwestern America to be with him and start an entire new life. I have two children under the age of 10. and there's a lot of stress and anxiety that comes from dealing with my ex-wife. I never wanted to be a mom.

2:28I have this romantic idea that you must have loved someone so much to have kids. It's almost like I'm not as important. She left parents, twin sister, friends, career, language, and the beaches of Brazil. I wasn't really welcome when I got here. Meeting his mom was one of the worst days of my life. I carry a lot of guilt that she gave up that and then came here and then I have this baggage. I don't want to disappoint my wife. I'm more happy than I've ever been.

3:16before we had started talking i had a lot of realizations about you know like i'm unhappy with my life and why would i want to spend half of my life unhappy and i didn't want to live that You've been unhappy to me because it's a very personal world, right? Sure. You know, me personally, I'm a very giving person. I like to provide for people. I like to do things. And I feel my ex-wife liked to take. Like all these things just kept piling and piling and piling. And then there was nothing left to give anymore. And I was never giving any kind of refill. Was there some things in particular that you were hoping to receive?

4:06Everything that happened was what she wanted to do, how she wanted to do it. Whatever choices for our life were what she wanted. And then if I ever didn't do something she wanted, then I was failing the marriage. So it was this unbalanced, in my opinion, unbalanced relationship. Is it a shared opinion or is this your... No. She didn't feel that way. What is her version? She feels that everything was amazing and I just up and left and disappeared. That was my fault. My family now sees I'm so much happier. It's completely different. I think that's really what turned around some of their perceptions and things.

4:51and they finally met her and they met her family and humanized her very much like she's not just this. They met her family. Yes. Your parents met your parents. My parents met her parents and her sister and nephew. You have one sister? Mm-hmm. A twin sister. Identical? Yes. The love of my life. It's hard to be so far from where it hurts me. But it's part of the decision that we made. So I don't keep dwelling on it, but it hurts. So you gave up family, country, language, career, and friends to come to... Is it a small town? Yes. Small town America? Mm-hmm. Mid-west, yeah. Yes. For this one man. Yes.

5:49He better be. He better be. I'm all in. That's why I'm here. All in. You know what I just thought? The giver found somebody who gave up for him everything she had. So for once, he doesn't have to worry that he's with the taker. and I know she's a giver I know she's a giver and it's hard for me to take sometimes and how was the conversation with your family or with your sister about leaving they were really supportive and they saw how my my first marriage was what did they see they saw that I was putting up a show. So I had this perfect marriage that even my friends were like, you guys are so perfect.

6:56We wanted to be like you. You are like models. And people believed what they saw and what they saw wasn't true. And what were you hiding? I was hiding that I felt inferior, that I felt almost as if it was a favor that he loved me. Like sex was non-existent because of him. And no one knew that. I was like, if he's my husband and he rejects me all the time and he's not even interested, I have to be the problem. Did you have kids together? No. No, oof, no. Oof what? Oof. Well, oof because I don't want to have children. I really didn't want to have kids with him because I was like, in his view, the sad one, the depressed one.

7:58I was like, how can I raise a child? I don't have emotional structure for that. I mean, sometimes I think about having children. One second. You just smiled. I think her beliefs are based on the situation that she grew in. I think if her previous marriage was not so difficult on her, she might have had different views about having kids because she's really good with children, but I think she wanted to protect potential children from him. Do you ever talk about it for the two of you? We do. We do. Is that still possible? Maybe slight, but not very. Yeah, I don't. I think that now I have a different set of problems with having children.

8:51Because I can only think, like, how about his kids now? Because it would be another children, like another child sharing daddy. And they are not with us all the time. And the kid will be. And then it's unfair. And then, like, I think, I don't know for sure, but I think things would be tougher with his ex-wife because of that. And then it's, he has kids already. So I don't know how nice and all. Because I think it's something he would want to give you. Because he thinks that you didn't because of the context that you were living in. And he thinks that he can give that to you. I'm ad-libbing, mister.

9:39I think that's pretty fair. I'm happy with just having two kids. And if she didn't want any children, that's, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm happy with the family as it is. I'm very much open to, if she said to me, I would like to have kids, then I'm very open to that. No, but she won't, because she just gave you the set of rationalizations for why not. So the only way that she would is if you actually give it, offer it to her, countering her own self-sacrifice. It's a dance. Right. Yeah, but I... Not that I think you should or you shouldn't. No, no, I kind of look at it. There is such a story here about who gives up and who gives.

10:26Yeah. You know, this is a big set of themes in your relationship now and in your relationships before. And in a way, you gave up having children. Not only that you didn't want, you didn't necessarily have a deep, deep, deep yearning, which allowed you to then be more contextual about it. But you gave up on it. And he knows that. and since he can give and he loves to give he's okay as is but if he senses the slightest desire in you he will want you to not give up I think that's a fair assessment because he said that before we've talked about it it would be one thing that's entirely I'm going to say it like this but for a fact not because it is I was going to say it would be one thing that is entirely yours.

11:22Meaning it would be one thing that is yours in a world where nothing is yours. Yes. Okay? In a country that's not yours, a language that's not yours, a family that's not yours, a small town that's not yours. And so this symbol would become the one thing that is actually yours, to whom you would probably actually speak in Portuguese. And it actually would have a tremendous symbolic. And it would be something that he would share with you that would be yours also, as in new and ours. Yeah, because I feel that deeply that it's not mine. Right. So I wouldn't rush on the no. That doesn't mean it's the only way to do it, but that would be its symbolic meaning.

12:09There's lots of reasons to have children or not to have children. But symbolically, that is unmistakable. Yes.

12:21She has been so invested in all the things that she has given up in order to be with him that I had to check on the topic of children. And interestingly, if she really wasn't interested, she probably would have just listened to me and said, yeah, but I'm not into it. But the fact that both of them are responding the way they do lets me know that this is not nearly as case closed as it initially appeared to be. So as I listen to them, it occurs to me that we also need to explore the official marriage that was done in secret.

13:03We did not tell my family because at that time things were not in a good place. Your family means your parents? My parents. His entire family. And your mom runs the show. Yeah, she does. When you say things were not good with her? Because she didn't want you to be divorced. I think she would have been okay with the divorce. The way things got found out was... She didn't like this temptress. Correct. This Latin temptress who flew all the way from Brazil and stole you from your... Correct. That's very much how it went, yes. So the poor guy got snatched. By an adulterer. Yes. That's very much how it went.

13:51Is that the language? Yes. Even worse. Go ahead. Even when I would own my part of that responsibility, it's like, oh, but I hold women to a higher standard. And when I followed through and went and saw and visited before anything was done, than she was evil incarnate. Oh, it wasn't the fact that you went to visit her in Brazil. It's the fact that you allowed him to come. Yes. Yes. Even though I know... Yes, but you are a man, so you don't have your head screwed up right on your shoulders. Then you need to put the limits on him because men will pursue women whenever he sees her and woman needs to make sure man doesn't do foolish things.

14:43And I was probably so, I don't know, so wonderful, so sexual, so sexy or whatever that we never met and I was in a different hemisphere and I did all that. So I carried like 95 % of the... So you know what's interesting? In your first marriage, you have this false story about how everything looks so perfect. And in this marriage, you enter with a false story in which you are responsible for all the shit. Yes. But you are always living in false stories. And I cannot express the level of frustration that I have with how unfair things are towards me. I cannot forget the things that I've been called.

15:39What's the one that stung particularly? Homewrecker.

15:48This story of the man who follows the chant of the sirens, the double standard, the fact that he's the victim of her seductive powers and she should have known better, she should not wreck his family. I mean, it does not elude me that homewrecker does generally not exist in the masculine.

16:16We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us.

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19:46Or not say my name. Yeah. They're like the other woman. In the beginning, she said the other woman. to other women, which is as offensive as anything to me. Like, that's not me. Like, one of his family members, that was probably the... She was... Really angry about it. Because she was close with my ex-wife. Yes. Who was that? My aunt. And she didn't talk to me. We were in the same room, and she wouldn't talk to me. Like, not even acknowledge. my presence. And then finally, one day she saw us together. We were at a wedding. Yeah. And we were dancing, hugging, kissing, like just being playful. And I think she saw that.

20:37And then in the next day, she came to me and apologized. She hugged me and she said, I'm sorry for everything that I said and I did. You're part of the family. I saw how happy he is and who you are and I'm so sorry. And I was like, thanks for that. I really appreciate it. It's all good. We can, let's move forward. But to me that was huge. It was like, wow. That meant a lot to me. But it makes me so upset.

21:18It's just hard. I know. I don't have family. I feel vulnerable. And then people, they were attacking me. I know. Have you ever said all of this to your mom? No. Why not? Because we didn't want to damage the progress we were making because things were getting better. So what would happen if you actually conveyed in a very kind way like you know to do?

21:56If I would to guess, I would say that she would say that I thought she knew, you know, like that we've moved on or whatever. Yes, but reparative justice requires sometimes an overt acknowledgement. Sure. And then you would say, Mom, there is something about your saying it to her the way that Aunt such-and-such did that would make a world of difference. I absolutely think she would apologize. So, you gotta go do this. I will. That makes me a little scared. Honestly. But what's the worst? Backtrack. Backfire. And what? And then we do what we do. We move forward. We move forward because she gets to go home to her husband and live her life.

22:51And if she can't acknowledge it, then that's not our fault. That's her fault. Because it's worth doing if it will make you feel better.

23:02Even though what he says is really kind and loving, he's not doing this to make her feel better. He needs to do this because it is the right move in the triangle between him, his mother and his wife, where he doesn't let the wife do all the work for him in helping him individuate vis-a-vis his mother. But he actually confronts his mother as an adult son. and the other thing that he reminds me when he's talking here is a little bit like when you tell a child who's being bullied in class you should go tell the teacher and the child says to you I don't want to go tell the teacher because then they're going to take revenge on me and so the moment he says I'm going to go stand up for you in fact when he should say I'm going to go stand up for me she instantly says to him don't do it because I may bear the consequences that is such an old triangle.

24:13If I told her, I think she would hear me. My mom and I are close. So how come you haven't done that? If you are close and if she would hear you. And if you know how your wife feels about it for the last two years, it's not like this is the first time she's telling you. For the same reason, the fear that we will go backwards. I would probably stop him. Depends how you say it. You would stop him. Oh, this is incredible. I think maybe from now on I wouldn't, but I think I would be so, that I would not let him move because I'm paralyzed. So that's the full meaning of when you say, I feel so vulnerable.

25:01It's like you live a little bit on probation. I'm like slowly moving forward, but I still feel almost like a hostage in a way. I don't know, can I say this, can I say that? what if I say something wrong? Whenever they talk anything related to his ex-wife, I pretend that I'm deaf, that I'm not even there. But what you're saying is, I want him to stand up for me, but he shouldn't. Because if he does, I'm afraid it's going to backfire on me. I'm on probation. I feel hostage. I feel that I'm constantly monitoring myself as if I'm going to be tripped up for the next thing I say that they don't approve of.

25:54But I also don't want him to make a big deal out of it because that would make it even worse. And so what you're describing is quite a bind. At least now I can stop myself when it's really unrealistic scenarios. But when I was younger, I would really get stuck because I couldn't move. I had so many tabs open. That's a great image. I had so many tabs open. That's a great image. I suddenly saw it. But I'm constantly overthinking. When you were coming today and you said, this is what I want for us in this session, what was it? I was really thinking about how to deal with this entire life in the background that he has.

26:46because he has the mom, he has the ex-wife, and he has the children, and there's always something happening here that I cannot control, that I'm kind of part of it, but I am affected by it. And to me, sometimes this is really hard because I don't have the children, I don't have the surname, I'm not the mom, I'm not his mom, that has all those unbreakable bonds that I don't have. how can I deal with all this? That was my, what I was. And when you bring that up to him, I don't have children of my own. I don't have your last name. I don't have your, I don't share your history. I don't share your culture.

27:33I don't share your family. What happens when you bring that up to him? He, he understands. He gets where, where I'm coming from. But to him, like, we being together and the love that we share and the life that we share is bigger than the background and what was before and everything else. What is the thing that you need or that you imagine that would make you feel that you have one thing with him that is an original creation? rather than legacy.

28:19Legacy. I mean, I can see that being a child. But even for that, I'm like, but if we have a child, then, then, then, then, then, then. I also go all scenarios that are from pretty logical ones to like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. because I understand feelings. The feelings fade. So what would be a structural, right? Legacy pieces are structural pieces. And you say, we have a love story and we have feelings, but they are not nearly as solid as structural hand-me-downs. You make a good point. and then you say one structure would be having a child of our own. But then you go right into the story.