In short
A 34-year-old man processes grief, anger, and jealousy after unknowingly dating a woman who previously made OnlyFans content. He later discovers it continued, feels betrayed by dishonesty, and their relationship and later attempted platonic friendship collapse.
Guest backgrounds
The caller is a man who has experienced major grief, including losing his only brother to an accidental fentanyl overdose about seven years earlier. He describes prior therapy and heavy drinking after the death. The woman is described as intelligent, charismatic, and a medical professional who also did sex work/OnlyFans content.
Key claims
He felt misled about whether OnlyFans content was ongoing; he “trusted his gut” too late and then withheld what he learned when they reconnected. He links his pattern of overlooking “cracks” to grief and to jealousy dynamics (surveillance/control vs trust).
Notable examples
She cared for him during a severe HSV-1 outbreak after he tested positive, and his anger centers on her likely knowing the cause. He also confronts her publicly after learning she moved on quickly, then later apologizes, prolonging the rupture.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Relationship Unfolds
0:45 to 2:38
The listener discusses the development and eventual breakdown of the relationship.
“I wasn't thrilled, but I was trying to stay regulated and ask questions, perhaps more like an investigator than a curious partner.”
Processing Grief and Betrayal
4:20 to 10:40
The listener reflects on their emotions and the sense of betrayal from their ex-partner.
“I watch you listening and while you're narrating your story I watch your face narrate every piece of the story with different expressions from smiles to sadness to tears to disbelief.”
Navigating Anger and Regret
10:40 to 14:02
Discussion of feelings of anger, regret, and unhealthy behaviors post-breakup.
“So give me a sense of how the delusion works.”
Confrontation and Regret
14:02 to 17:23
The speaker discusses a public confrontation after a breakup and feelings of regret.
“She's still telling me, I love you and I care about you and saying all those things and then acting differently.”
Confrontation and Regret
17:31 to 18:34
The speaker discusses a public confrontation after a breakup and feelings of regret.
“That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin for free shipping and 365-day returns.”
Exploring Personal Cracks
20:04 to 22:24
Discussion on personal grief and misalignments in relationships, reflecting on the past.
“And that has been a huge rupture in my life.”
Navigating Loss and Jealousy
22:24 to 28:00
The conversation shifts to feelings of jealousy and the complexities of romantic relationships based on past losses.
“But it is because of the loss and the grief that you overlook the cracks.”
Exploring Jealousy and Insecurity
28:00 to 36:26
The discussion dives deep into the complexities of jealousy and feelings of inadequacy in relationships.
“who makes content where she exhibits herself to other men.”
Exploring Jealousy and Insecurity
36:27 to 36:41
The discussion dives deep into the complexities of jealousy and feelings of inadequacy in relationships.
Exploring Jealousy and Insecurity
36:44 to 36:54
The discussion dives deep into the complexities of jealousy and feelings of inadequacy in relationships.
Show all 15 chapters
Unpacking Trust and Dishonesty
37:51 to 42:01
The conversation shifts to the impact of dishonesty in relationships, particularly concerning hidden truths.
“But that's where the Mill Food Recycler comes in.”
Navigating Attraction and Emotional Challenges
42:01 to 44:47
Explore how attraction intertwines with emotional pain and jealousy in relationships.
“So if she had told you it still continues, what is it that you would have to make a decision about?”
The Impact of Loss on Relationships
44:48 to 48:35
Discuss the effects of grief and loss on personal relationships and emotional connection.
“Why did you just see or think about or remember?”
The Power of Tender Gestures
48:36 to 49:50
Learn about the importance of simple gestures of care during emotional distress.
“And we're picking up little pebbles, each of them telling a little piece of the story.”
A Dedication to Grief and Growth
49:51 to 51:49
A poignant dedication reflecting on personal loss and the journey of self-discovery.
“I think it's the feeling of just feeling seen and just being really vulnerable and not being okay and not, you know, someone not being scared of it or running from it and just being like, I'm here.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hi Esther, I'm 34 years old and I unknowingly dated a sex worker. I'm hoping you can help me answer questions and unpack some lingering thoughts about that relationship. I fell head over heels for this woman I met a handful of times in social settings over the course of about a year. After our first date, we spent almost every day together for months and I was crazy about her. I knew she did modeling and it didn't bother me. I knew that was a part of her life. But after an argument one day, she opened up to me and told me that she did something with OnlyFans. I asked her if she was currently making content or if that was in the past.
0:48She said it was prior to us dating. I wasn't thrilled, but I was trying to stay regulated and ask questions, perhaps more like an investigator than a curious partner. She described doing things, taking pictures and doing some other custom content that she couldn't remember. And then I became more upset that I felt like she was misrepresenting the facts to appease my emotions and manage my reaction. In hindsight, I think I was just naive and didn't trust my gut. We eventually broke up and had no contact for several months. And during that time of no contact, I let my prior inklings about her sex work get the better of me.
1:34And after a deep dive down the internet rabbit hole, I found what I was looking for. Part of me felt kind of excited to see her posing nude and engaging in sex acts with another man. And maybe it was validating my own sexual competence or there's a voyeuristic quality about it. But it was also painful knowing that she was actively profiting from that or engaging in that while we were together. It felt like a big betrayal. And it felt like our relationship was built on this big lie. Later, we ended up reconnecting in a platonic way. But I chose not to tell her that I found out about the sex work, the OnlyFans.
2:13I don't know if I was trying to avoid being mean and calling her out like a gotcha. I don't know if I was trying to protect her or if I was trying to protect myself from the discomfort or not speaking up for myself. But then our attempted friendship ruptured even more intensely than our relationship had. And we have not spoken in about six months at all. I'm hoping that you could kind of give me some insight. I know I've experienced grief and loss in the past before, and perhaps that's part of it as well. I know I've been guarding myself from falling in love again, and that's something I'd still like to have in my future.
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4:20I watch you listening and while you're narrating your story I watch your face narrate every piece of the story with different expressions from smiles to sadness to tears to disbelief. A range. It was just like, I wondered what would it be like if I only looked at your facial expressions and didn't listen to the story. But I would have a sense of the arc of where you started and where you ended. So you listen to it too. Tell me. It's interesting you say that because I felt that too. especially in the beginning it was felt very nostalgic and these kind of happy memories and then as we come to the turn in the story I noticed that kind of the sadness the feeling of maybe betrayal or yeah just I could definitely feel my mood shift throughout like hearing me tell the story for sure.
5:32Yes, yes. So where do you want to start? I think I carry a lot of grief and sadness around that and anger. There's times where I feel angry at her, at myself, and I don't know if that's like feeling helpless or where that's coming from, but I noticed there can be an intense feeling of anger that comes up around this story when I recall. And it grabs you where? And it says what? It sometimes grabs me by the throat or by the chest. And it sounds like, how could you let this happen to yourself? And then the negative self-talk comes in of feeling stupid and feeling naive. And how did I let this happen to me?
6:19That's what it sounds like internally.
6:24and it's you're stupid just just to go into the granular of the self-talk you're stupid for what for you should not have let what happen and there's so many micro stories within the story as well right yes so you you can fill in the blanks because I don't I it helps me definitely to know otherwise it's generic so there is There's anger in, I feel like, not honoring my own internal trusting my gut and not acting on it in certain occasions. Like? For example, I had been seeing this person for a while and I very suddenly got sick and I wasn't sure what was wrong with me. And she is a medical professional.
7:24So she was helping take care of me and find different over-the-counter medications for me to take. And just, you know, making tea, making food I could put down, being very sweet and doting in that way. And I continued to get sicker, sores in my mouth and couldn't swallow and fever and fatigue and all this stuff. And so I had other symptoms sexually too. And so I decided to go get tested and I tested positive for HSV-1, so oral herpes. And when I had told her about, because I know for some people, it's not a big deal because it's common, but I had never had that before. And it was such a huge primary outbreak.
8:10And so when I had told her, her response was, you don't know you got it from me. and then continuing to elaborate and then hearing her say uh start tearing up and saying i'm so you know i didn't i didn't know what to do i didn't i you know i felt bad and i didn't know what to do and in hindsight it just felt like you know you you saw this happen to me and this is your line of work and you watched me get sick and you didn't tell me what was happening and you like took care of me while you saw me getting sick when you very likely knew what was happening and that just felt really shitty and then I stayed through it too um that was a betrayal yeah um that's just one of the betrayals yes yes and you she it came the idea was it came from her but she didn't tell you uh yeah um not prior not during it wasn't until after sharing the test results yeah so it's not just that she took care of you is that she also knew what it was i believe so yeah i think that's very likely yeah and so the question that you have is because once you pound on yourself and you just say i'm so stupid there's not there's nowhere to go right But you have a question, like when you say, I felt something and yet I proceeded.
9:41I accepted something that I wanted so badly that I didn't see the cracks. Or I noticed small cracks developing and decided that, oh, they may not turn into bigger cracks. or, oh, we can just put some tape and glue on it and it'll be okay or we can ignore them. When you think of the glue, you think of which crack. Because you are bound with situations in your head and you keep going through them one by one. They come back and you kind of are ruminating, going through the Rolodex of compromises. Yeah, especially that story I just told being one of the big early ones. It's also one that leaves a legacy from her that is now a part of you.
10:36Yeah. And that makes her harder to forget. Yeah, she's part of the story, for better or for worse. So give me a sense of how the delusion works. The crack isn't really that deep. We can fix it. We can tape it. We can cover it up. Yeah. Okay. I can. Yeah. Okay, let's see. When we had met a couple of times before that, she was very attractive. I found her very attractive. But then we were... And you say that as a way of saying, when I'm very, very attracted, my brain doesn't think. That's probably... The same way. I think most men might agree with that too. But yes. Okay, I just... Or people in general.
11:26But I remember having a conversation with her once and just she was incredibly intelligent and knowledgeable. And for me, that was also very attractive. Just someone who's got, you know, brains. I was like, oh, okay. Like, I like this. Like, that makes it better. And when we started dating, it was just she had all these great qualities. She was charismatic and intelligent and funny. And we spent all this time together. And we had some shared hobbies that we would, you know, get to engage in together. And that made it a lot of fun. And it turned out we didn't know this prior until our first day that we were actually neighbors, which is funny.
12:02So it made it really easy to spend lots of time together frequently for quite a period of time. And, you know, I think it was a lot of those things that made it enjoyable. And there was a time where she was my best friend.
12:21and now your face and your heart are feeling that so you feel like you lost your girlfriend and your best friend or a best friend so tell me about the cracks that you don't want to see or that other needs supersede because you may have seen them but there was other things that you wanted to see more yeah i'm clipping through that mental rolodex of cracks see which one next um and i have definitely played a part in it it takes two to tango for sure so i'm i i'm aware of that and there's times where i wasn't healthy and i stuck around and i was you know unkind and unhealthy as well but another one that comes to mind just before you jump what are you saying when you say that that's code language you're right it is um let's see um and i think this kind of speaks to the anger too and the regulation piece for me and this is you know i remember when we we broke up and i had texted her the next day and she said okay like you know you can you know we can spend some time together but I don't want to talk about it.
13:41And so we kept spending time together and, you know, being not obligated to each other anymore. And I found out that she had moved on very quickly and was already sleeping with other people. And that felt incredibly hurtful to me. We had broken up, but it was still the, I'm still telling you that even though we're broken up, She's still telling me, I love you and I care about you and saying all those things and then acting differently. So to me, the words and the actions weren't aligned. So when I found out, there was no sense of tact or timing at all. I confronted her in public and basically told her that it was, you know, don't call me, don't text me, lose my number.
14:38and that, you know, there was a big rupture and doing that in a public space was very unkind and it was just wrong and just felt, just reaction, just, I just felt really bad about how I approached that. And so about a week later, I went to offer an apology and we had talked about it and that's when our kind of long drawn out situation started. started um so you came to do a a novella yeah a scene you had a is that it you had the scene it has been quite the telenovela for sure the scene yeah yeah um it was kind of like the gotcha did you think about what you were gonna do or did you just storm uh i i very little thought went into that process.
15:29Right. Right. But I wanted to have the last word. I wanted to embarrass her publicly. I wanted the world to know that I had been hurt, that she was so quickly putting herself in bed with another man. Yeah. When I thought that what we had was slightly more important than that, that I was so easily replaceable, that I was certainly not indispensable. Yeah. And that that was far from unique. Yeah. And then it was that feeling. And then it was also the, how can you say that you still love me and care about me in one breath and then do this in the next breath?
16:15We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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20:04So, shall we go back to the cracks? Yeah. because the cracks is not your negative self-talk of how do you let this happen your cracks is your deeper needs that allowed you to lose sight and your history like the last sentence when you say i'm not no stranger to grief and loss and when we act in this kind of ways like you say what she said and how she acted was not aligned you say I was misaligned something happened to me in this relationship and maybe it's not the first time then we need to understand misalignments plural and maybe this one stood out differently from all the others so I'm going to listen for a moment because you're a thoughtful guy you've spent a lot of time thinking about this and you can you can connect a lot of dots yeah and speaking to the grief piece too I lost my brother about seven years ago to an accidental fentanyl overdose.
21:10And that has been a huge rupture in my life. And, you know, he was my only brother. He's my best friend. We were incredibly close, close in age also. And that loss has made it really just hard internally just for me in navigating life. And it's made it hard to navigate relationships. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm so sorry to hear that.
21:49What a loss.
21:54It's just been devastating. It's torn me apart and our family apart. And he was central to you when he was alive. and he's central to you when he's no longer there. Yeah.
22:11And were there cracks with him as well? Yeah. Is that what made you go from her to him in your mind just now? Possibly. I think it was when you mentioned that I was no stranger to grief and that was the big one. Yeah, that's the big one. Right. But it is because of the loss and the grief that you overlook the cracks. Perhaps, yeah. And then you blame yourself because you feel like you overlook the cracks with him.
22:50I struggled with that for a long time where, you know, why didn't I do more? How did I, you know, was it my fault? Or why couldn't I have done things differently? So there is a long time where I struggled with self-blame in that. Could you?
23:12No. No, okay. We're clear on that. Not really. Maybe a couple things here and there, but see, there I go. But we're clear on that. That wasn't your doing. Or you still doubt? Wow. I haven't thought about that question in a really long time. Logically, I know the answer is no, there's nothing else I could have done. But when you said that, there's this slight felt sense of maybe.
23:50This maybe, I could have done more, and the sense of guilt. sometimes I think it can be interpreted in various ways. One way is I feel guilty, I feel responsible, I take the blame, I could have done more, I could have prevented. But there's another side sometimes I think that we hold on to that little part that says I could have done more because on some level feeling guilty may at times be better than feeling helpless. yeah do you understand? yeah it's a strange talk maybe yeah I couldn't do anything sometimes it's worse than I could have done something more does that resonate for you? yeah I remember starting therapy very soon after he passed and that conversation is now ringing a bell.
25:01Yeah.
25:05So make the connection between the cracks with him and the cracks with her. Or the grief. Let's see. Okay, this I think would be useful for you to know. One of the cracks. early on we would you know go get drinks or go out for dinner or have a night in and maybe have a glass of wine and I noticed that it was with her it was never just a glass of wine with dinner it was refill after refill from the time she got home until the time it was time for bed and there were some similarities in terms of addiction and I think part of that was a huge overlap and part of that was I remember noticing that and just like okay maybe we're just not aligned here and no ill will or anything but then I think I tried to make it my job to like help her see or notice or I'm worried, I'm concerned.
26:19And it turned into that type of dynamic in part. And the question that you have, the one that circles back at you, is what? The first thing that comes to mind just in line with what we've been talking about is could I have done anything different? And logically the answer is no. but it's not a feeling could I have done anything different to
26:57could I have shown up differently could I have asked better questions could I have been more compassionate could I have you know helped her more could I have resolved conflict better and not gotten so hot headed at times
27:14and I would get particularly hot headed when I think usually it involved jealousy or not feeling like I was enough or with all the effort I put forth feeling just not recognized or valued and that is a feeling that was exclusive to her or you have known that in other relationships? Romantic relationships. You may not have it in your friendships. No. Not to this degree ever, no. No, this was unique. Yes, but you chose a woman who makes content where she exhibits herself to other men. So you're going to get a different dose of it. Yeah. Yeah, that's a I suppose it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Talk to me about jealousy.
28:19I'm not sure where to start or how to start. Jealousy usually involves a triangle in this context. Somebody else gets more. Do I matter? will I be left? Am I enough? We envy things that we haven't had and we are jealous about things we feel losing. That's one of the dozens of ways to distinguish between them. Jealousy is I don't trust therefore I put surveillance in place to help me trust but surveillance is about control and not about trust because trust is about dealing with that which you don't know and which is filled with uncertainty that's why the word trust exists the more I put surveillance the less I trust the more I need to put more surveillance the more the person that's with me often says I need some air and their need for air makes me feel like I choke.
Read the full transcript
29:39You've answered me with your head. Yep, so then let me push harder and then it just perpetuates the cycle, yeah. Okay, so now shall we talk about jealousy in your own words?
29:53I think jealousy in part is it's seeing the effort and care you put forth of not being reciprocated. I think that's one way to think of it. And then there's that jealousy that comes in of like, why isn't that coming back to me? You know? You mean example?
30:22I think one example is just like, just like not feeling enough. I mean, that's not specific, but just like one, I guess an example of that would be like why wasn't it enough when i would comfort her when she was feeling distraught and depressed and like nothing mattered why wasn't it enough that i helped support her through processing her divorce or why wasn't it enough when i held space for while she broke plates on the ground? Why wasn't it enough that...
31:04Why wasn't I enough? I gave. I held. I cleaned. I supported. And still it wasn't enough. And at that moment you think why am I not enough? Or do you also ask yourself what would make it enough for her? And what does enough mean? And enough for what? Enough to stay? Enough not to leave? Enough to what?
31:42Enough to... To be loved? No. Do you ever think that with your brother too? Not with the love piece, no. it's more of the change and maybe I think that was part of it as well how come it isn't enough for them to change and I know you can't love someone out of addiction logically but that's not what we're dealing with here why was it enough to help them or you know why wasn't I enough to help her see that life is worth living why wasn't I enough to help her stop doing content on OnlyFans. That part, she didn't know that I knew about that. Never? I don't think she ever did. That would have been even better, that she could have stopped without even knowing that you knew just because you were so important that it would make her want to change.
32:45Why wasn't I important enough on the drinking? Yes, why wasn't I important enough for her not to want other lovers? Yeah. Wasn't I good enough? Did they do it better? Yeah. What else? I think those are pretty good right there. And it's funny because I've had connections since where I feel like the roles have been kind of reversed. and if I'm imagining it as I experienced it on kind of the flip side, sometimes it's just I remember I wasn't in a place to want the same things they wanted romantically or there's times where there were just personal preferences that weren't aligned or it wasn't through any fault of the other person themselves.
33:41and you use that to remind yourself you know not out loud like that just now but i have kind of gone there to give you know some more compassion or understanding for another's experience no i was thinking actually in reverse that you have actually brought that understanding of the fact that it wasn't about them and made that become a source of greater compassion for you wow oh my goodness I've never I don't know if I've considered it like that before wow
34:23you know just seeing the um the level of effort and engagement and kindness and generosity I know I wasn't always reciprocating that to the same degree, but feeling that from someone else, it was, it was kind of hard to, well, I enjoyed it, but it was also made it hard knowing that I didn't, the feelings weren't mutual reciprocal to the same degree. And so just kind of realizing, oh, wait, that was me. and despite their best efforts or attempts or how they tried to care for me or love me that I wasn't ready or willing or to give it back in the same way and then applying that to myself. Applying it to yourself is one thing and remembering this the next time you break up with someone.
35:31That doesn't mean people always believe it when we say it's not about you. But sometimes it's exactly that. It's not about you. We just don't click or it's not happening for me. But it's not because you're not enough. It's because I'm looking for something else. But what you are is just fine. And it will be exactly what someone else is hoping for. And I think now it's just finding the mutuality there and being patient.
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37:19Entrenous brings you behind-the-scenes conversations from Where Should We Begin? There's also live conversations with other sub-stackers, as well as tools, resources, and my weekly personal reflections. Together, we ask the pertinent relationship questions of the moment, how to define them, how to experience them, and how to change them. Join us as a subscriber today. Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from Mill. Food waste feels like a huge, impossible problem. But that's where the Mill Food Recycler comes in. Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler. Potato peels, avocado pits, chicken bones, even dairy.
38:05Mill takes almost anything. And while you sleep, Mill quietly transforms food scraps into nutrient-rich, shelf-stable grounds. No mess, no smells, no fruit flies. You can use the grounds in your garden, add them to the curbside compost, or Mill can even pick them up and get them to a small farm. My producer Jessie has tried it herself and I asked her about it. Jessie, tell me, have you ever felt guilty about food waste? I have felt so guilty about my food waste. But now that we have a mill, I can express how easy it is to do something that feels like you're limiting waste and helping the planet.
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39:02Is the piece about OnlyFans important in the story? Yeah. Especially since you didn't tell it to her, but you went digging deep. Yeah, and I discovered that, and she never knew that I discovered that. I never told her that I did. What made you go look? Just prior inklings, like, was I right? But she had told you? No, she never told me that it would continue. She had told me it was years prior in a different location, you know, years prior. And then I had remembered just that feeling of not trusting that. Because I remember during the conversation, you know, it was kind of, I wasn't happy. I was kind of withdrawn and kind of like quiet and asking about it.
39:53And I remember her saying that it was not something that was currently happening. And she didn't remember exactly some of the things she had done. And that was the part that made me more frustrated was that, you know, I just want you to be straight with me. I think you'd remember and that whole thing and then it just turned sour but months later while we weren't speaking anymore I had kind of just like okay like I remembered that feeling maybe I was right you know and not trusting that and so I had kind of done some investigating and found what I was looking for and I think that part was hurtful to be like oh no I was I should have trusted my gut.
40:40I was, you know, right to not. And then what? And then what? I know. And then what? So you would have known that it still continues. And what did you find? I mean, you know, I should have known doesn't necessarily tell you what you would have done with the knowledge. Exactly. And then when we attempted to reconnect platonically, I still had that information and never disclosed it, which I don't know if that's just as bad, not sharing that to give someone else the information to make an informed decision whether they would want to continue a friendship or not did I withhold it to protect her or did I withhold it because to protect me what do you think part of it is oh at first I wanted to kind of like gotcha but it's like no that's a dick move I don't want to really do that even though it would feel good it'd make me feel shitty later um maybe it was just not wanting to rupture that connection again but then it's still built on a cracked foundation of not being honest.
41:41I don't know.
41:45And what bugged you? Is the fact that it went on longer or the fact that it existed? I think it's the fact that it existed or just the dishonesty around it. That was the biggest crack for me because then I didn't have the information to make an informed decision about how to move forward. What does it represent for you? So if she had told you it still continues, what is it that you would have to make a decision about? Whether to stay or go, probably. Yeah. But that question you asked yourself all along, that information didn't change that. Because part of why you stayed is because of the friendship, the humor, and all of that.
42:33But part of why you stayed had to do with the deep attraction you had to her, too. Yeah. If I understood that. She is the only woman in the room to me. Okay. All right. So let's talk about the attraction and the sex, basically. Because that's a piece of here. Yeah. It's the sex with the other man. It's the sex or it's the allure of other people looking at her. It's the excitement you felt when you went to look. It's the jealousy you felt. It's a combination of things that are part and parcel of this whole. If you had been slightly less attracted to her, you would have been gone. And that might be fair to say.
43:18Good. One truth. Out.
43:25because part of why you don't stay with some of the other women often has to do with not attracted enough. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes, not often. Okay. But it's an important piece. It can be. It's always there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's okay. I'm fishing. Yeah. See what you catch. See what I catch, exactly. because we can go in many different directions, but I sense that it's easier to go in the direction of the grief and the loss and the breakup than to actually, because that's more familiar to you. If I take you into the kind of the labyrinth of the erotic mind and how all of that mixes in with sex and desire and attraction and jealousy and masculinity and all of that, then it's a little more complicated.
44:29Yeah. I'm also tracking how, for many of us, what is emotionally challenging can also be sexually exciting. what pains us emotionally can turn us on sexually
44:55i think there are times where i'm very confident and you know flirtatious and can uh approach women in that way and i think there's times where that ebbs and flows of feeling like confident and attractive and things like that but i think you're also right in the sense of like um there I don't know if there's a fear or a um you know worry about cultivating a loving and nurturing long-term relationship where you know it's more than just like the attraction piece it's like the character and the values and the um you know doing life with someone um have you had yeah you've had it yes uh we were together when my brother passed
45:42and there are times that I still uh kind of feel guilt or give myself a hard time about not doing better but we had you know we're planning a future together talking about getting married buying a house like all that you know the white picket fence and all that and uh there were already some a couple cracks there that were hard for us um but I think with my brother passing I just I spiraled and it just was so hard on both of us and you know especially me but then being together my brother passed I made it really really hard and so sometimes I worry about having something like that again and whether I don't know if it's the fear of messing it up or if it, you know, I don't know.
46:35Why did you just see or think about or remember? Your eyes just went somewhere. Yeah.
46:48I remember drinking heavily to cope afterwards. I remember her comforting me while I was crying lying in the shower wanting to no longer be alive and it wasn't that I wanted to die it's just that it hurt so damn bad of course I know I can finally hear certain songs without crying years later almost four like four years later um she saw you in the shower and what happened um she just held my hand but you're saying i was too bereft and in too much pain to pay attention to the relationship I think that was a part of it for sure yeah and I think that came into this most recent the conversation we've been having I remember on the second date with this that person shifting gears now I remember a song came on that reminded me and my brother and I chose not to change the track and I just had this lone tear kind of run down my cheek and I remember she put her hand on mine and i was just like sold you know just like you know just someone being there and just being present and like having that compassion like i care you know that was huge for me i actually i was thinking when you talked we're less connecting dots and we're more walking on a beach of pebbles.
48:46And we're picking up little pebbles, each of them telling a little piece of the story. And then we're putting them back, and then sometimes we put them next to another pebble, and so the stories connect, and sometimes not, because we won't have a chance to lift more pebbles than that. But this piece about, she held my hand in the shower, she put her hand on me when a tear streamed down my face when I listened to a song that reminded me of my brother. These gestures of tenderness run very, very deep. They run really to the place of I am enough. Someone sees me. Someone can hold my sadness, my fear, my vulnerability, my pain.
49:41They just hold it. They do nothing. They don't embarrass me. They don't shame me. They just put a hand on me. And I continue crying. I think it's the feeling of just feeling seen and just being really vulnerable and not being okay and not, you know, someone not being scared of it or running from it and just being like, I'm here. I'm here through it. I got you. yeah no that is hugely important for you and lives on the other side of the jealousy you don't scare me you don't make me run away I see you I'm here for you I got you is the opposite of what we feel when we are jealous or when we feel bereft I had a thought because we're going to need to end would you like to dedicate this session to your brother yeah that would be great go ahead
50:52oh man if i could say anything to you right now it's just i miss you i miss feeling your hugs and your handshake and hearing your laugh there's so many stories i wish i could tell you i'm sure you'd laugh at many and knock me upside the head for a few and um but I don't think I'd be where I am now had you not left it's been a quite a journey of self-discovery and grief and mourning and trying to reevaluate my own life and where I want it to go and how I want it to look and how I want to feel it and um you've given me that gift in the most messed up way possible but yeah you really helped me become you've really helped me become rather have you here but thanks for that man love you thank you thank you
52:02This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt.
52:41Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
From the publisher
Post-breakup rumination is a familiar spiral. We replay the signs, question our judgment, and wonder how we didn’t see it coming. This week, Esther speaks with a man grappling with the lingering grief and betrayal of discovering that his ex wasn't exactly who he thought she was. Together, they explore the complex aftermath of a relationship.
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to producer@estherperel.com.
Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter
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