I’m Afraid of Losing More Than Just the Business

0:00Hi Esther. The context of my question is that around 10 years ago, my business partner and I established a company together. That company has grown and been successful across most of that last decade, during which both of my brothers have joined and been promoted into leadership positions. Around three years ago, my relationship with my business partner deteriorated. We both had some personal issues which impacted our professional relationship. So I decided to take a step back. I've taken a non-executive role. I've explored some other really, really exciting opportunities. So whilst I retain a directorship and a shareholding, I'm no longer involved in the day-to-day running of the business.

0:40That arrangement worked really well. We had some teething problems, but the first year was pretty successful. But during the second year, the company has unfortunately started to fail. I believe we've had a good strategy, but the implementation's been poor and the relationships between my brothers and my business partner have also broken down at times. We're in a position now where we hope to sell, but we may well have to close the business and make the team redundant. And that's a process I'm really struggling with. Some of that's about old stories and myself. So I feel very, very responsible for my family, for my team, for my clients, for my business partner.

1:16I feel ashamed that I haven't done my job well enough to keep the business thriving and successful but I'm also struggling a lot with a lot of sadness and some feelings of anger because I feel like I've placed trust in people who I care about very deeply and I'm struggling with the fact that the business is now in the position it's in due to decisions and actions that they have taken so my real question is how can I best reframe my thinking to set up our relationships for the best, whatever the business outcome. My family, because I love and care about them very deeply, and my business partner, because we'll continue to know each other in a professional context.

1:55Thank you.

2:09Support for this show comes from BetterHelp. Have you ever had so many tabs open, that your computer starts slowing down? Life can feel like that too. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report found that 74 % of Americans believe society still discourages asking for help. Therapy can help you sort through what's taking up space and quietly affecting you. With BetterHelp, connect with a licensed therapist online and switch anytime. Maybe it's time to close a few tabs. Visit betterhelp.com slash voxpods to get started. Excuses are easy. An epic movie night? We don't have enough snacks. Dinner party with the girls?

2:51We'd have to decorate. Surprise date night? Nothing to wear. But Amazon's Prime same-day delivery lets you say yes before the moment slips away. Try that new popcorn maker. Order those cheeky drink glasses. Get that new perfume. And turn that I wish we could into an I'm so glad we did. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Available in select areas. Terms apply.

3:24Anything you want to add or clarify? Yeah, the thing I thought as soon as I sent that voice note off and I thought, oh, I've ended by saying I love my brother so much and my business partner is this guy I'm going to have to see forever. which doesn't do justice to our relationship. The fact that it's broken down now is really sad for me. I don't necessarily think it's recoverable, but he's still someone I really care about. So there is that professional side of things, but there's definitely also a sort of personal sadness about that relationship. I think since I sent the voice note, there's been one more call between the four of us, which was quite a difficult call.

4:08it's probably the most sort of visibly angry I've ever been about the situation so possibly just even thinking about it in the context of our conversation has kind of helped me engage a little bit with my emotions around it other than that the situation remains as it was we can focus on you because you have a lot of a lot of feelings and a lot of thoughts about what has happened. And that, of course, implies your relationship with each of these people. I think it's a good place to start, maybe, because I will understand also your role with your co-founder, with your brothers, with the family. I seem to have understood that there is something that you bring to the company that mirrors a kind of role that you have had in the family.

5:03there's a kind of a superposition between the role at home and the role at work so can we start there does that sound good sounds great okay yeah absolutely so i'm going to listen a little bit and just take in the story of course so i'm the middle child and i'm the only girl with two brothers everything was very happy i think sort of very happy childhood all of those kinds of things fantastic parents um I love my brothers I also really like my brothers um I would say we are as people as people yeah as people I would I would be friends with them if I met them tomorrow are they friends with each other almost all the time apart from work that's I think it's really the only thing that's that's got in the way certainly for the last 20 years um has been has been work since since we since we all became grown-ups we've all been good friends with each other in in every combination they are quite different people in in some ways in other ways they've got probably similarities which maybe at work without me in that dynamic they found themselves clashing in ways that when we all work together weren't such an issue but you feel a sense of responsibility completely yes tell Tell me more.

6:29Fundamentally, I think maybe it's on two levels. I think at work, essentially the buck stops with me. I believe that. I'm a director of the company. I'm an owner of the company. Fundamentally, what is my job if it's not to make sure the company is successful? If the buck doesn't stop with me, what is the point? So I think that feels very, very true. and that feels still true regardless of the fact that I've taken that operational step back. The difficulty now is I have far less control than I used to have. I don't feel less responsible, but it feels like far less I can do about anything, which is hard.

7:06Is that a question that you have? The question being, should I go back to a more hands-on role so that I can have what you call control is basically the resources, the means to actually execute on my responsibility? Absolutely not. I would. For my own sanity, I would not go back. Over the last maybe three to four months, I have been doing a little bit more because it was necessary, but I would not go back on a day-to-day basis. I love my work life outside of this particular issue exactly as it is. So you have a combination of I'm actually really fulfilled and excited by my new job or new career or new venture.

8:04but I need to find a way to leave and to maybe close or sell in such a way that my new excitement doesn't screw up a bunch of other people. Exactly that. And I think that's practical because I want to do the work that needs to be done with the company that we're talking about on a very practical level. but also emotionally I feel so conflicted that 90 % of my life is we're setting up a new company we're doing this new thing we have these new clients and that's so exciting and then I look back and I see my brothers and the team of the other company having a pretty awful time and I just bringing the two together feels brutal so I find myself not talking about certain things and and not kind of sharing the good times and the excitement with them because it doesn't feel appropriate but then yeah it feels like a huge conflict conflict or betrayal oh betrayal yeah that's a good word yeah I mean that yeah you seem to say I feel like I'm betraying them by having such a good time somewhere else while their ship is sinking yes exactly that and but at the same time I'm pissed at them that the ship is sinking because it shouldn't be sinking because we were doing really well and basically they mismanaged they did they took bad decisions or they're not as good as me or what what is it yeah I'm angry and I can't say that to them because I know they are working so hard and have never not worked hard but I'm really annoyed because I feel like I sat there in we meet monthly as a board which I sit on and I sat there month after month saying guys look at the numbers we have a problem we have a problem we have a problem and I heard month after month next month we'll be fine it's it's short it's temporary it's short term it's short term so I feel like it is not that none of us saw this coming we talked about it and I allowed myself to be put off and put off and put off until we find ourselves where we're at now I even, before our most recent set of meetings, I went back and I read or listened to all of the notes from all of the meetings for the last year because I thought, am I going mad?

10:29Did I not say any of these things? Is this genuinely a surprise to them? And it's just there and it's infuriating. And what did they, how was, how did they react when you reminded them? Throughout the process, they would say, oh, sure, but that was last month. This month is different. And now we've reached the point where we're at where it's undeniable where we are. I think there's a huge emotional understanding they all have of it. I think they get it. But it's difficult because what does getting it practically do? I suppose we all feel probably like we don't have time to process the emotional impact of it because we're so busy trying to bail water out of the ship that we just have to.

11:11But it may not be that you let them kind of deflect. It may also be that while you saw the problem growing, you thought, I don't want to have to jump in to fix it. Yes, that's probably true. I really did not want to jump in to fix it. So you let them say what they said, even though you noticed, you pointed at it, even though you told them. but then in order for them to recognize it would have meant for you to become more involved again and is there a story about why you stepped out there is there's two sides to it so one is there were other really exciting things happening and offers I was getting to go and set up other things and I was really excited about those and they weren't things that could be combined with the role that I was previously doing so that door was definitely open at a point when I was actually probably a bit bored of the sort of work that that company does so it was a good moment for me to look at those there is on on the sort of more negative side of the piece there is the fact that yeah my relationship with my business partner had having been a really strong business relationship And I would say a really strong friendship had started to break down.

12:34Essentially, it wasn't a good relationship for either of us. That was about three years ago. Why? I mean, why does a relationship that is so good and strong for seven years suddenly decline? Yeah, I think so. It's all personal things, really. So I went through a divorce and he went through a very major breakup at almost exactly the same time. So whilst when basically we'd been able to previously compensate for each other, I think if someone had a crisis or a personal issue, the other could step in. At that time, neither of us really could. And we probably both felt that deficit. And then from my perspective, I'm sure he would want to say similar.

13:19but from my perspective I felt some of his behavior during that period towards me was just unacceptable he would you know he would call me for two or three hours a day not very sober tell me everything that was wrong with the world and with me and um that's fine for a while but it went on for months and I started to find that really really difficult and sort of an imposition on on my life really it was really tough and our relationship we afterwards we weren't really able to talk about it and I don't think the relationship recovered really. Have you tried since? I mean are you polite? Are you just?

13:59Yeah we're polite I think we meet in person and we're friendly. I think ever since he's gone through that experience I experience him as quite a different person. He'll do things like if we're having a meeting online and the tone goes in a way he doesn't like or the topic turns to something he doesn't like he will just leave the meeting. And not talk to any of us for the rest of the day, for example. So it's quite difficult to engage on difficult topics. We're a fully remote workplace as well. So we don't go and sit in the office together. So we've tried. We've gone out for drinks together. And we are friendly and professional when we meet in person.

14:36But starting that conversation has proved really difficult. And what would he say if I asked him what led to the deterioration of your relationship, of this friendship, of this partnership? I think he would acknowledge the bad behavior. He doesn't typically have a problem saying, yes, I behaved badly. I just think he doesn't necessarily feel particularly guilty or like he needs to change when he behaves badly. I think he would acknowledge that. I think he would say, and he would be 99 % right, he would say, you know, she got tempted off by the you shiny thing. she was bored of the work that we were doing together she just left us and I left over the course of a year I didn't walk out suddenly but you know I think he would say that she she got bored she got tempted she left it's fine so that's the main reason she left she didn't leave because our relationship deteriorated I think he would understand it that way yeah yeah and it's not there's truth to it there is absolutely truth to it I would I would say it's about 50 50 personally So if I hear you well, there's something in your request that is, how do I do what I want and not feel guilty about the effect that what my wanting has on others?

15:59Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty accurate. Right. I mean, company nevertheless. But basically, if the company went well, then you would feel less guilty and you would just say, I went to do what I care about now, but I left them in a good situation and they're thriving. And so, you know, I don't feel that bad because they're doing well. But now that this is not happening so smoothly, I sit with this duality that I want to do what I want and that's not new. And I want to be liked. Yeah. Yes, I like being liked. Yes, of course. So do I, by the way. It's not such an unusual thing. But it's very difficult to want to do what you want on a regular basis and to still hope that people will continue to like you.

16:55Yeah. You know, usually it's like two different realities may need to coexist. You may want to do what you want to do and other people are entitled to their reactions. You're entitled to do that and so are they. and those two things can coexist. So rather than wanting the other people to accept why you chose what you chose as if it has no effect on them. That makes sense. I think I felt absolutely, like I say, we had some teething problems, but they were normal, I think, for the scale of transition that we were making in that first year. But until the business started to have its current problems, I felt no guilt because I thought this is a win-win-win.

17:45You know, I get to do what I want to do. Everyone else gets to run the company how they want to run the company. We're set up. We're successful. It's a small company. It's always scrappy. It's always risk-taking. But fundamentally, we're set up for success. We have a track record of success. I felt no guilt at all. And now I feel really guilty because I get to keep doing what I want to do. And they don't.

18:12We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

18:28We're all feeling it, getting pulled in a million directions. In a world full of distractions, focus is increasingly hard to find. And when you're needing to reset and refocus, you'll want something revitalizing. Pure Leaf Mental Focus is a new line of sparkling, real-brewed iced teas made with naturally occurring caffeine, from black tea and added L-theanine to help support attention and focus, without the sugar or calories. And it's available in two delicious flavors, peach and raspberry. Time for a tea break. Time for a Pure Leaf. Try it yourself. Check out the product locator at pureleaf.com slash find dash us.

19:33tabs and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com slash vox. That's odoo.com slash vox.

19:49Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it, Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today.

20:21so since i don't think this is the first time you have this conflict in life i would say how have you dealt with it at other times what have been ways that you have been able to integrate this tension yeah the example that springs to my mind first which is completely in my personal life, but it's probably when I did get divorced. My ex-husband didn't want to. I did. And I never joined this equivalence before at all, but it makes complete sense. And essentially I was like, well, you can't stay married without me. So off I go. And your ex-husband had similar thoughts and feelings as your co-founder?

21:12even though totally different reality? I think my ex-husband was just really confused. Blindsided. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And likewise, I think would acknowledge that there were ways in which he behaved badly but would say fundamentally you went off to find something new, didn't you? Yes, you were bored and you went to the next shiny thing. Yeah, exactly the same, yeah. So how did I, I suppose, how did I navigate that? firstly the next shiny thing is really good so you can lose yourself in that that's probably not the not the healthiest mechanism in the world but but fundamentally going off to do that new shiny things are great but otherwise I suppose I sort of I sort of looked at it as a again it's a slightly dramatic way to put it but it's like sort of like born alone and you die alone and fundamentally sometimes you have to make the decisions that are right for you and you cannot carry everyone else's weight.

22:12Did you feel bad for hurting him? Yes. Yes, of course. I felt horrible. It's okay, you know, those two can coexist too. I am going to leave, I've made up my mind, I don't want to be here, and I feel really bad about hurting you, leaving you, in some sense betraying you, And, again, I hope you will be well because if you are well, it lessens the guilt, the burden, the responsibility. But it's an important thing to be able to continue to have empathy and awareness of the reactions that people have about your decisions while at the same time making your decisions. What sometimes happens is that in the name of wanting to do what we want, we cut ourselves off of how it affects others so that we can maintain our oomph, so we can stay the course and proceed with the decision.

23:22As if we actually looked to the side for a moment and saw what effect it has on others, we won't have the guts or the strength or the confidence to actually pull through with it. yeah I can completely see it I'm quite good at once a once the once the decision's made as in both cases so when my husband and I broke up and with the business now about thinking about going back into that to that day-to-day I can just tell that both are just an absolute no for me I think because I don't get sort of tempted back to revisit my decision and that kind of thing I hope I am able to sort of look those other emotions in the face and go okay I'm going to do this anyway but I still have all of this this awareness I suppose the difficulty I think that I'm facing now and the difference with those scenarios is you know I see my ex-husband at two weddings and a christening every year and not the rest of the time whereas I have to be so careful in this position because this is my whole family um if I don't get this right it's my whole family so that's that's the stakes this time yeah is that you can't have a leaving that basically has these people exit your life this this leaving is a partial leaving and your brothers stay in your life your co-founder is maybe a different story so what's the conversation between you and your brothers um I think there was a real breaking point turning points rather about three months ago something like that where I think we'd always spoken in terms of you know how can we save the business what can we do to change things in a way we'd sort of never really allowed for the idea of failure we'd not really discussed it and we were able to have a meeting between the four of us as I say about three months ago where we just said look this is the position that we're in and we have to talk about it in these terms now because if not what we're going to do is enormously let down our clients and our team by heading into a catastrophe which is unplanned we have to plan for it that was a really good conversation who led it I did the pivot because I essentially said look I can't do this like if we can't look this truth in the face I can't have this conversation anymore and once we turned that corner everyone engaged fantastically in that conversation but this is what you said and where were they one of my brothers had found it really really difficult to consider the possibility previously he would very explicitly say look I can't think about failure because if I think about that then I I will just you know fall off a cliff I cannot be in the mindset for that so I just can't look at it that's where he was and then my other brother who's maybe I don't know a little bit more of a sort of he likes he likes to look a problem in the face as a guard against it he takes that approach so maybe he's considered a bit more negative about it so I think he found it a sort of easier transition to go through so they came from two quite different places but I think we're now more aligned than we have been for a year between the three of us at least it's interesting that when you have a kind of a family business you name the people by their family tie my brothers my brother one my brother two if you were not a family business, you would be saying my operation person, my finance person, my marketing person, they would be identified by their role, not just by their family tie.

27:23Would that change it for you?

27:31um yes because I think if I used that language I would find it easier probably both inwardly and outwardly to hold them to account in a professional way whereas probably what I've done is not held them to account sufficiently in that way and therefore we find ourselves in a worse position than we would have been. I think by keeping it too personal, I probably haven't done the best professional job I could do. You have known that? Or this is new insight? I tend to agree with you. I've thought before that I should have done a better job around accountability. It's one of the things that I feel embarrassed about, ashamed about.

28:20I've never linked it to the the language before that's a really new insight for me and that makes total sense I mean the language defines emphasizes the relationship and we have a different relational expectation and business actually we have a different business expectation because of the nature of the relationship and if you constantly emphasize the family tie and the loyalty and the middle child and the desire to have your brother stay in good terms with you, there's a good chance that that will influence expectations around accountability. I definitely, I think I would, two sentences. So if I say, oh, my brother's working really hard, they're just not performing the role so well at the moment, for example, I find it very easy to let them off the hook.

29:16Whereas I would never, in one of my other companies, I would never say, oh, my marketing director's working really hard. So even though it's not working, it's okay. I would never say that. That sounds crazy to me. But I would absolutely, and have done it the other way around. The intention is good and the work is hard, but the quality is not there sometimes. Makes no sense without the familial tie. I mean, this is not said so that you can take a hammer and start. bang it on yourself right don't turn insight into instant criticism no i know i understand that that is a tendency i definitely have i will try not to it's hard to sit with it's like whoa you know because that's not what i would have done but it's very good food for thought and it's a lot of good information for the future because the i'm assuming you're trying to think how they could continue with you in the next venture?

30:17Definitely not the next one. But you feel like you need to help them find the next place to land? I feel absolutely I would continue to have professional relationships with them and work with them. Definitely, I don't want to work in the same way again, because right now the stakes feel so high. In a way, I recognize as extremely patronizing. I think oh it's my responsibility to make sure that they both land on their feet and get the right job why why do because the the more you tell me that it implies and that's a subtle thing that you actually don't think they're capable and therefore you need to boost them in one way or another or loss in your expectations or not demand the same level of accountability and now I need to understand that A, you don't really and I don't know if it's a day or one more than the other or it's a package deal is there a message you were given that you need to

31:29I don't think so that you're not allowed to succeed beyond them by yourself and that this has to be a triad no no definitely not I think I'm I was at a younger age the most academically successful one one of my brothers is is now definitely in advance of me on that but sort of age for age equivalence and that was celebrated by everyone including them which was fantastic I think I try to get to the bottom of it and I think it's difficult for me because I know it's you know I just said you know it feels really patronizing when I look it in the face I think I don't they're both adult men who are incredibly capable competent clever hard-working human beings they do not need me to solve their problems they absolutely don't do you really believe that because the patronizing part of you doesn't believe that I think it's probably doesn't predate working together I think working together in this business when I when I set the business up I'd been working in this sector for a while they were both new to both the sector and to sort of startup life and all of those things and I'd done all of those things and so I think when they first joined we probably ended up in this position of not I know everything but I know more than you I know more about the sector I know more about the company I know more about how to do this and therefore you know it's my job to be that sort of guide and then we've had that period where actually you know it's fantastic and they've both got specialisms I have no idea about and I love that but I probably just have never left behind that whole like hey you know newbies I want to make sure you have a fantastic experience here and and you grow and you learn all that you want to and that's my job which maybe seven years ago it was my job it's not my job now and they don't need me to do it they really don't I think it's I think it's that probably it probably doesn't predate our professional lives we'll be back with a session right after this and while we love our sponsors if you want to listen to this session ad-free click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

33:57Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where OLLI comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fan chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on Nolly.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

34:28This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.

34:57Are the parents involved in this story? They are probably to the extent that they're very good whenever any of us talk to them about work. The others never hear what they say, so they're pretty good sort of secret keepers. They're not gossipy, which is perfect. I find it currently very difficult to speak with them about the situation not because I don't trust them but because it feels too difficult to it feels like I would end up blaming or being very embarrassed or But difficult means I worry that I would either be blaming my brothers or blaming myself Yeah, exactly that It's either anger or shame yeah yeah I find it very difficult to talk about this entire situation without one of those things unless I'm in complete professional let's get things done mode I have no middle ground right now I get it and you came to me for the underground not for the middle ground exactly you know because you see what happens is you have a particular situation and all these reactions and feelings and behaviors come up.

36:16But then when you look at them, you begin to notice how they reflect similar behaviors in completely different situations. It's like you get a bit of a Rorschach of your coping strategies, of your style of dealing with these kind of situations. something I try to do where I depend on other people I typically am not somebody who so easily depends on other people I go out myself and if it doesn't work then I'm stuck between the what they did wrong versus what I did wrong or vice versa I did wrong and I blame myself suddenly it gets decontextualized and it becomes highly personalized and it's no longer about startup world and this and that.

37:07It's about them, mostly my brothers and my co-founder or me. One of us sunk the ship. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's not about responsibility as much as about blame. It feels like that now. Okay. Yeah. But that is not the only time you've done it this way. When you come with such a set structure, usually I think, you know, this is part of your own relationship resume. This form has already existed in other situations as well. It also accompanies people who live with a very strong sense of responsibility and personalize. If it goes well, it's me, but if it doesn't go well, it's also me. There are other people when if it goes well, it's me and when it doesn't go well, it's others, you know.